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Author Topic: Rate the 20th century presidents  (Read 3906 times)

Dunefar

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Rate the 20th century presidents
« on: February 16, 2009, 06:18:39 PM »
Now that the 20th century is well in the past, we can reflect on it with a more impartial eye. With this in mind, I feel that an attempt to sort the US presidents of the 20th and rate them could be a lot of fun. The 20th century was filled with change and turmoil from start to end. We began at the first gasps of the modern age and ended with the internet and high technology spreading like wildfire. Communism and Fascism waxed and waned, colonialism crumbled, and democracy spread further. The US leadership had to deal with all of this in an increasingly large role as the super power of the world.

So how did they all stand up to it?

A handy list of them, sorted by chronological order.

William McKinley
Theodore Roosevelt
William Howard Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Cooledge
Herbert Hoover
Franklin Delano Roosevelt
Harry S Truman
Dwight D Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Lyndon B. Johnson
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Jimmy Carter
Ronald Reagan
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton
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Taishyr

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2009, 06:25:23 PM »
1) Franklin Delano Roosevelt - His two main flaws were the Japanese internment camps and the court packing. Both big, but... yeah, otherwise he works fine here.
2) Dwight D Eisenhower - Seems to have been quite cool-headed and rational. I appreciate this.
3) Lyndon B. Johnson - Socially pretty advanced, fucked up with Vietnam but approaching it in any way was a land mine anyway. Can't bring myself to hold it too much against him.
4) Theodore Roosevelt - Just glad he didn't get into any wars. Seems to have been quite competent otherwise.
5) William Howard Taft - Busted trusts, did some environmental stuff, so sure, works.
6) Harry S Truman - Looks generally competent from what I'm reading here?
7) John F. Kennedy - Gut. Harder to get a good read on in general, but gut says he goes about here.
8) George H.W. Bush - Sure, looks right.
9t) Ronald Reagan
9t) Bill Clinton
9t) Woodrow Wilson - All three were competent to good as foreign ambassadors and dealers. No comment otherwise.
12t) Gerald Ford
12t) Jimmy Carter - I've read stuff by Carter and looked up Ford some. Both seem like quite good people with a wide load of talents (in different areas, notably), which explains why the Presidency chewed them up and spat them out.
14) Calvin Coolidge - See above, but his policy of laissez-faire is always a bit offputting to me.
15) Herbert Hoover - He... rereading about him, it does look like he tried to stop the depression but failed kinda miserably.
16) Richard Nixon - Yeah, no.
17) Warren G. Harding - Yeah, no pt.2.

Abstain on William McKinley.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 10:13:57 PM by Taishyr »

Dunefar

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #2 on: February 16, 2009, 06:34:32 PM »
1. Theodore Roosevelt: He's an iconic figure for good reason. He revolutionized the Presidency and was several years ahead of his time.
2. Ronald Reagan: Incredible charismatic leader who made the nation believe in itself again after the 70s. Reagan mixed in the right doses of realpolitick and idealism in dealing with the dying USSR. Oh, and he gave -great- speeches.
3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt: We all know what FDR did right. I happen to find his flaws damning enough to drag him down to 3rd. Court packing bill, 4 terms,  too soft a line with Stalin all marr him. Still, he was a great president and leader.
4.

Finish later.
William McKinley
William Howard Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Cooledge
Herbert Hoover
Harry S Truman
Dwight D Eisenhower
John F. Kennedy
Lyndon B. Johnson
Richard Nixon
Gerald Ford
Jimmy Carter
George H. W. Bush
Bill Clinton
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NotMiki

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #3 on: February 16, 2009, 06:44:56 PM »
Very tentative list:

1. Franklin Delano Roosevelt
2. Theodore Roosevelt
3. Dwight D Eisenhower/John F. Kennedy
4. Lyndon B. Johnson
5. Bill Clinton/Harry S Truman
6. George H. W. Bush/Gerald Ford
7. Jimmy Carter/Ronald Reagan
8. Richard Nixon
9. Herbert Hoover

And abstain on the rest.

William McKinley
William Howard Taft
Woodrow Wilson
Warren G. Harding
Calvin Cooledge
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SnowFire

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #4 on: February 16, 2009, 08:12:31 PM »
--Great--

1. Franklin Delano Roosevelt - FDR did many bad things (court-packing, Japanese internment), and had others that were screw-ups (misjudging Stalin, some of the herky-jerkiness of the New Deal) but ultimately he kept the US democratic in a pretty dark time.  He also did everything he could to support the Allies before Pearl Harbor, which was tough against an isolationist Congress, but nevertheless might have ensured that there was a war left to win after 41.  (In a full ranking, Roosevelt would be the only one hanging out with Washington, Lincoln, and Jefferson in the Greats.)

--Excellent--

2. John F. Kennedy - No I am not a baby boomer.  An anti-communist without going over the edge, Kennedy did a good job in his short time in office - dealt with the Cuban Missile Crisis effectively, and lightly helped South Vietnam.  He set the stage for the Civil Rights Acts to be passed later, and he also kickstarted serious space exploration, which is probably what he'll be remembered for 500 years from now, the Queen Isabella to Armstrong's Columbus.  Okay yes I am a NASA fanboy which is why he's so high up here.

3. Theodore Roosevelt - The man.  For such a fire-breathing hawk, it's lucky that the world situation never let him get into any bad idea wars, but he was actually a pretty decent peacemaker.  Taking a shot at the robber barons was also needed.

4. William Howard Taft - Policy-wise, Taft is Roosevelt, just less manic and charismatic.  Also busted trusts (unusual for the Republican party, even at the time!), started protecting the environment, and so on.

5. Dwight D Eisenhower - A surprisingly solid president.  Like Kennedy, he also pushed civil rights forward, and later on space flight.  Appointed Earl Warren to the court (even if Warren turned out way more liberal than expected) and generally was competent.  Main flaw: Focused on nuclear weapons as the main US Defense Arsenal because "more bang for the buck."  Um, yes, if we're willing to fire them, which we won't be once the Russians can nuke us back?

6. Harry S Truman - Not as much on the Truman hype train as some people.  He gets points for courage (pushing a civil rights bill in 48, an election year!) and for firing McArthur, as well as not turning the Korean War into WW3 against China, but....  I don't know, it just seems like Truman should have been able to set up the Cold War world better than it turned out.  The Marshall Plan was good times, as some of the other aid to anti-communists, though.

7. Ronald Reagan - As a liberal, I'm not really a fan of many of Reagan's domestic policies.  I guess some of the 60s/70s social program splurge did need to be trimmed, but meh.  He was an effective leader abroad, I'll grant, and he had the charisma to pull off the impressive feat of insulting the USSR and pointing out it was a tyrannical mess (needed to be done) while also saying "let's make a deal."  Much like Clinton, Reagan has to deal with a Democratic Congress his time in office, which was certainly a good thing - the sillier parts of his programs were restrained, and Reagan was a far better president as a result.

8. Woodrow Wilson - I read an interesting theory in a book which is that rather than a stroke at Versailles, Wilson actually got the brain-eating flu instead.  Which would explain why he rolled to the Europeans and was unable to really fight effectively for passage of the League of Nations at home.  A tragic coincidence in history that the most forceful and charismatic proponent of ending WWI right was, in some sense, worse than killed.  Anyway Wilson was totally right about things like self-determination and being suspicious of the "mandates" (read: new colonies) that England and France wanted, but he kind of failed to stop them (thanks to the flu).  On the bright side, Wilson set up the Federal Reserve, ending some of the monetary madness that was in the US in the late 1800s.  On Civil Rights...  Wilson is very mixed.  He did nominate Brandeis, a Jew, to the Supreme Court about thirty years "early" and force it through...  and he was certainly sympathetic to oppressed European minorities controlled by distant empires (the Poles, the Serbs, even the Arabs, etc.).  On the other hand he was a total racist against those not white enough, shrugging off Ho Chi Minh at Versailles (yeah this will never come back to haunt us) and re-segregating the federal government and Washington DC.  And generally kicking blacks to the curb, publicly praising "Birth of Nation," yeah.  Like Nixon, hard to rate, though on the balance comes out okay.

--Competent--

9. George H. W. Bush - Generally an adult even if he pandered on some issues.  Realized that the US needed to transition well to a unipolar world, and withdrew a lot of US aid from various dictatorships that we'd been propping up strictly because they weren't commies.  A fateful decision with mostly good consequences (though it can be argued that abandoning Afghanistan might have been the one place it backfired).  Also was mature enough to tear up his campaign promise and raise taxes back when congressmen actually took balancing the budget somewhat seriously after the expenses of the Reagan years.

10. Bill Clinton - Clinton's hard to rate.  He screwed up his first two years and then faced an extremely hostile Congress the other six.  I'd argue that divided government is generally a good thing, but it's hard to say how much of Clinton's proposals were Clinton and how much were compromises in order to get anything done.  He was a masterful politician, I'll give him that, and he stopped the Republicans in Congress from doing anything TOO stupid (unlike, say, 2002-2006).  Also he helped liberalize the policies of the executive branch in a lot of subtle ways.

11. Lyndon B. Johnson - An extreme mixed bag.  Made some of the triumphal liberal legislative achievements of his time, notably including Civil Rights Acts with teeth, a feat that was only possible thanks to Johnson's mastery of Congress.  Some of Johnson's social programs were also definitely needed, stuff like the Food Stamp Act.  On the other hand, the fact he was able to get whatever he wanted done allowed him to slip some bad programs in there, and then there was intensifying the US in Vietnam.  Ugh.

12. Calvin Coolidge - Didn't really do anything, but did nothing efficiently and non-corruptly?  I guess you could blame him for failing to ward off the Depression and not doing anything about Prohibition.  Which I do, but only lightly.  Also he helped pass the Kellogg-Briand Pact which OUTLAWED WAR.  Yeah that worked well.

--Disappointment--

13. Gerald Ford - Nice guy.  Pardoning Nixon was even the right thing to do.  But generally flailed around.  Efforts to fight inflation were laughably stupid (check out Wikipedia for Ford's "WIN - Whip Inflation Now" buttons.  Yes that will cure our problems while the Fed Chief is pouring gasoline on the fire with too-low interest rates.)

14. Jimmy Carter - See above, actually.  Nice guy who didn't get much done, except toss in some bad taste in friends / cabinet appointments that forced Carter to fire half his cabinet halfway through the term.

15. William McKinley - Not really a 19th century guy.  Main achievement was temporarily resisting the Spanish-American War, then fighting it anyway...  hmm.  He did do the right thing in Cuba, but kind of messed up the Philippines.  Hard to say.

--Fail--

16. Richard Nixon - Canonical example of a president hard to rate on a single scale.  The American Macbeth may have actually been a somewhat decent president (deepen the separation between China/USSR, start the EPA), but he had his flaws too (ineffective price controls, and set up the inflation that Ford & Carter would have to deal with).  Also there is the whole megalomaniacal "the President is the President and thus can't break the law and gets to do whatever he likes to his enemies because he's SAVING THE COUNTRY."  Maybe the foreign enemies, but not the domestic ones.

17. Herbert Hoover - The only two Quakers to be President?  Nixon and Hoover.  Oops.  Dave Barry pointed out in one of his books that Smoot-Hawley is an inherently funny word, even if the tarrif was a bad idea.

18. Warren G. Harding - His SHINY PANTS are IRRESISTIBLE to women.  No I'm not making this up.  Also he sucked as president and dropped the ball on the League of Nations and failed to notice extreme corruption in his cabinet go die early kthx.

metroid composite

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2009, 06:27:04 AM »
3. Franklin Delano Roosevelt: We all know what FDR did right. I happen to find his flaws damning enough to drag him down to 3rd. Court packing bill, 4 terms,  too soft a line with Stalin all marr him.
Err...why is four terms a downside?  4 terms was perfectly legal at the time, it was only after the war that they looked at how Hitler came to power in a democracy setting, and decided to restrict the number of terms on Presidents.

I don't know enough to do a full ranking, but...

Eleanor Roosevelt: Awesome.  Obviously the driving force behind everything that FDR did right!  (Okay, in fairness Eleanor was one of my childhood heroes, and I had like...three biographies on her at one point.  Though...if the biographies are to believed she really did influence FDR in a lot of positive directions).

FDR: He's decent too I guess.

Eisenhower: Good.  His biggest flaw was that Presidents after him didn't have his uber competence, so the military-industrial complex got out of control.

Reagan: Decent.  Reaganomics is effective.  It has flaws, and I wouldn't necessarily want to live in such a country (same way I wouldn't want to live in Russia under Stalin, but Stalin was great for advancing the economy too).  So...I respect him on an economic achievement front.  On the flip side I've heard reports that he was somewhat senile by the end of his second term.

Clinton: Mediocre.  Liked him a lot at the time.  In retrospect he tried to do stuff like socialize medicine...and failed.  Sub-prime lending was started under his presidency.  When he was under attack for Monica Lewinsky, he took America into "Bomb Kosovo" mode (I don't remember there being a very good reason for the bombing at all).  Arguably these are minor complaints--he was overall average, but there's not much of a positive legacy to point to and say "he made that".

JFK: Pretty Good (largely kneejerk).  He arguably averted nuclear war.  He has one of the most memorable quotes on the space race.  He's an important piece in the civil rights movement.  Despite being assassinated pretty quickly, I still seem to know more about him and what he did than a lot of these people.

Veryslightlymad

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2009, 11:45:27 AM »
Thank GOD we have this list instead of the 19th century presidents. Although, I wouldn't mind trying to crack a full list of presidents.

1)Franklin Delano Roosevelt
~Generally regarded as a top 5 president on every scale for a very good reason. Basically led our country through two of the three greatest crises that it has ever faced, and got us out of both alive. Still, he had some ridiculously stupid ideas that piss me off, such as Internment.

2)Dwight D Eisenhower
~There are things about Eisenhower that I really respect. Massive public works projects that actually served a purpose (our road system!) Pushing civil rights in a way that, I think, later presidents didn't have the balls to (and yet he was considered LAX on this front for decades. Jesus.)... Eisenhower generally understood the way things worked, and helped turn our strong post-war economy into previously unheard of levels.

3)Theodore Roosevelt
~Teddy Roosevelt, along with Eisenhower, is a big example of what I think the president ought to be. Undeniably tough on foreign relations, and progressive and forward thinking in socioeconomic issues. I'm a big fan of his trust-busting practices, because there were some unholy monopolies in those times. I'm all for the free market, but let's not misunderstand each other here: When a corporation corners the market, it is just as controlled of an economy as when the government does.

4)Harry S Truman
~Arguably has had the single most difficult decision any human has faced at any time. And though it could probably be in another topic on its own, I'll simply say here that I think he made the right one. I'd disagree that his human rights bill in 1948 was so much "Courageous" as it was "Brilliant". Because, at that time, the Republicans were advocating for much of the same policies (albeit with different names) and stalling them in congress. Truman came out and said how it was news to him that they wanted these civil rights policies passed, opened congress, and told them boys to go to work. Check and Mate. Man didn't even go to college. This wasn't so much a risk, because I'd argue it was a huge part of why he eventually WON re-election in 1948.

~ENORMOUS DROP-OFF~
~While the previous presidents were fairly easy to list and knee-jerk, pretty much every other president on this list sort of slogs around... perhaps not in mediocrity, but in unbalance. Many of them have strong pluses in their favor, and an impressive amount of minuses, too. For example:~

5)Richard Nixon
~Yeah, that's right. Number GODDAMN FIVE. Fuck all y'all who think otherwise. Richard Nixon was an exemplary president who otherwise got wrapped up in, yeah, probably the greatest mistake a president has ever made. Here's a fun list of things Nixon did that make him better than Kennedy, though.:
a)Dramatically improved relations with China and the USSR while he simultaneously...
b)Managed to widen the gap between China and the USSR
c)Put forward the initiative that made sure we haven't seen a draft since the Vietnam war. Let me put it in more absolute terms: RICHARD NIXON PRETTY MUCH ENDED THE DRAFT.
d)Ended the Vietnam war.
e)Formed the EPA and OSHA, which went a long way to conserving the environment and advocating safety in the workplace.
f)Abolished the Post Office as an actual cabinet of the government, which, just imagine if they were still there today.
g)Abolished the Gold Standard, which, to be fair, resulted in an immediate economic crisis, but in the long run probably enabled our economy to grow.
Nixon was an extremely progressive president in pretty much most of the right ways, while at the same time attempting to maintain a balanced economic budget. On foreign relations he should arguably rank toward the very top of all presidents, and his attention to human rights was also astoundingly high. Although his abuses of power will serve as a permanent stain on the presidency, I do not believe that they should overshadow an otherwise illustrious presidential career.

6)John F. Kennedy
~Foreign policy was stupid. Economic policy was even stupider. On the flipside, he did a lot for social reforms, particularly in the sphere of immigration. If we had more forward thinkers on this issue since Kennedy, we might not have as many serious immigration problems as we do. And NASA is, again, the kind of government sponsored project that yields many fruitful results. I give major props to government initiatives that are actually... uh... productive. Oh yeah, and Kennedy was involved in some of that illegal wiretapping that we love to charge Bush Jr with.

7)Lyndon B. Johnson
~Gets major props for civil rights expansions. Gets lowered down to this level because of, oh, I dunno, the Vietnam War.

8)George H. W. Bush
~A very underrated president. Generally a peaceful president in terms of foreign policy, handled his actual conflicts fairly decisively. Established the Americans with Disabilities Act, which was a pretty important step forward in civil rights.

9)Gerald Ford
~Another very underrated president. Probably deserved a second term. Him and Carter pretty much suffered through a monged economy, but Ford's insistence that we educate the disabled was very important. I imagine Gay Rights would have been vastly improved if either Ford or Carter had been allowed to serve a second term.


10)Woodrow Wilson
~Led us through World War I. Established the Federal reserve. Flipside? One of the more impressive doublespeaking politicians we've had, didn't do a great job at the end of WWI. Oh yeah, and PROHIBITION was the stupidest idea ever.

11)Ronald Reagan
~Very charismatic president, but very flawed in many respects. Escalated conflicts during the cold war, after all the hard work put into place in the years from Nixon to Carter. Still, he eventually helped put an end to this conflict through sheer dumbass likability, and I think in a way the American people needed a uniting president to help them get through a lot of the bullshit they were dealing with at home. Had a piss-poor track record of dealing with less-fortunate members of society, and really dumbassed on Gay Rights. "GRIDS" anyone? The War on Drugs is arguably as stupid as Prohibition.

~~ENORMOUS DROPOFF~~
~The following list of people may as well have not existed, because they really didn't contribute much of anything.~

12)Bill Clinton
~Did almost literally nothing during his tenure as president. Still, he did nothing during a strong economy, so he gets more points than some of the others on this list.

13)William Howard Taft
~Saying Taft did the same thing as Roosevelt is just plain wrong. Roosevelt actively took it to trusts, Taft managed to piss everyone off by attacking trusts with one hand, and patting them on the head with the other. His foreign policy would have probably been OK had he been re-elected, but otherwise.... man. Taft just didn't do much.

14)William McKinley
~Did nothing!

14)Calvin Coolidge
~Did nothing! But instead of Clinton, who was more of a "Hey, I'm gonna not do anything because things are good now" he was more of a "Meh. I don't want to make hard choices."

15)Jimmy Carter
~A humanitarian and a diplomat, Carter still wasn't much of a president.

~~ENORMOUS DROPOFF~~
~Fuck these guys~

16)Herbert Hoover
~Blaming the depression on Herbert Hoover is unfair and retarded. However, he still did almost nothing to make it any better. So fuck Hoover.

17)Warren G. Harding
~Hopelessly corrupt, and possibly the stupidest president we ever had (by which I mean, having had the lowest IQ) Harding didn't even WANT to be president, but took the job anyhow. What happens when a stupid, lazy, uncaring man becomes president? He becomes a puppet for one of the most hopelessly corrupt political regimes the country has ever known.
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 11:53:48 AM by Veryslightlymad »

NotMiki

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Re: Rate the 20th century presidents
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2009, 03:54:23 PM »
~A humanitarian and a diplomat, Carter still wasn't much of a president.

Funny how that goes.  He's done a lot of good and been a positive influence on the world.  Just...all after he left office.
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