Plot Power Tourney S6 Wk2 - RNG selection means eventual Suiko flood!

[TranceHime]

Godlike:
Alucard (Castlevania) vs. Zerase (S5)
X (MMXCM) vs. Mother Brain (PS2) - Never played MMXCM.
Ultimecia (FF8) vs. Raidou Kuzunoha (SMTDSRKs) - I think Raidou can beat the time stuff.
Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)

Heavy:
Alundra (Alundra) vs. Beatrice (WA3) - You're joking, right?
Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG) - I don't buy too much Axel respect here. Kinda forgettable for me actually.
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3) - Would be less close if it was Disgaea Prier.
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)

Middle:
Ursula (BoF4) vs. Rebecca Streisand (WA5)
Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)
Rita Mordio (ToV) vs. Fran (FF12) - blahblahblah

Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)
Mist (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)

[alanna82]

Silmeria (VP2) vs. TimeLord (SaGaF)

Heavy:

Axel (KH2) vs. Emeralda (XG)
Prier (LP:T) vs. Sarah (S3)
Kevin (SD3) vs. Ernst (S5)

Middle:

Rikku (FFX) vs. Jessica (MK:AAR)
Paula (EB) vs. Namine (KH:CoM)


Light:
Dog (Secret of Evermore) vs. Hanpan (WA1)- Toaster Dog is battle not plot. Hanpan outsmarts the dog.
Mint (FE9) vs. Princess Peach Toadstool (SMRPG)- Mist isnt DID (damsel in distress)
Lowe (ShF1) vs. Skye (Grandia2)
Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- Shiho is so not light in plot power

[Dhyerwolf]

Nina (S2) vs. Shiho (VP1)- I'm somehow tempted to take Shiho back when she was alive, where she's fundamentally powerless (her battle song thing basically induced Berserker Rage.  She herself was frail and killing her is how the enemy won the war!)  Buuuut... nah, probably unfair.

You've actually described exactly why she has plot power. The enemy won...because she refused to use her power. She was kind of the whole lynchpin of a near undefeatable army (Which wasn't even all that impressive except for her powers boosting them).

[Pyro]

Yeah Shiho has the plot power to make OTHER PEOPLE powerful. She herself is never shown as anything but a helpless little blind girl who can (and is) easily cut down by someone when she doesn't have a berserked army protecting her.

Kinda like she doesn't have one in a dueling tournament.

There is no reason to think that Shiho gains more power after her death, either. Gameplaywise you can GIVE her offensive magic, but even that requires intervention on the part of the player and isn't something that should automatically be assumed.

[Dhyerwolf]

If you want to put it in that frame of reference, all she needs is one person relatively nearby her on her side (Maybe not even that nearby, since her voice transmitted to a whole army). Since plot wise Nina doesn't even have a way to off her quickly, Shiho has plenty of time to find someone to berserk against Nina (Unless they are thrown into a completely deserted plane or something...).

[Ultradude]

If you want to put it in that frame of reference, all she needs is one person relatively nearby her on her side (Maybe not even that nearby, since her voice transmitted to a whole army). Since plot wise Nina doesn't even have a way to off her quickly, Shiho has plenty of time to find someone to berserk against Nina (Unless they are thrown into a completely deserted plane or something...).

Can't vote on this, but... that's kind of what I've been assuming. The characters don't get any help that they don't actively bring to their side i.e. Yuna's Aeons. Not sure where I'd stand on Call Team here, but letting Shiho stumble across someone to make berserk wouldn't work for me.

[Dhyerwolf]

And Ultimecia's Time Compression doesn't do her any good if someone is standing right in front of her, but it's still being brought up. Not to mention that if you take it that literally, you can't even have someone really trick someone else because there in theory isn't that much in arena that you can use to trick someone (An example would be if someone could use a projecter to make holograms plotwise in game, they could beat Dekar here because if it's that literal then they couldn't bring the projector in the arena).

[Ultradude]

And Ultimecia's Time Compression doesn't do her any good if someone is standing right in front of her, but it's still being brought up. Not to mention that if you take it that literally, you can't even have someone really trick someone else because there in theory isn't that much in arena that you can use to trick someone (An example would be if someone could use a projecter to make holograms plotwise in game, they could beat Dekar here because if it's that literal then they couldn't bring the projector in the arena).

Well, I was considering people not objects. Though I don't respect Kompression much in this situation I guess.

[Dhyerwolf]

People fighting for her are practically objects in Shiho's hands anyways.

[SnowFire]

Since it got brought up again, re: Time Compression in a duel setting....

 don't really respect the Kompression as a duel weapon either, as it obviously has some huge preparation time.  However the point is moot as Ultimecia can (probably) time travel.  Admittedly I can see throwing this out for sanity's sake, but she does possess Edea from her impenetrable future base, and more importantly time travels in both body and spirit at the end of the game.  While I can see throwing this out as only happening once and possibly not being repeatable, or saying that she could only do such a powerful thing while dying, or that she was caught up in general weird time currents...  I'm personally willing to basically let her time travel when she wants.  Meaning unless her opponent can follow a la Magus, or is immortal, or has some way to exist outside of time and space, she gets to set up Time Kompression and win the match a year later or whatever as the time continuum collapses.

Don't know Raidou, so I'm not sure why people think he can get around this, but sure, he sounds powerful enough and there are enough question marks on Ultimecia's power level it doesn't sound like a rob to me.

[Meeplelard]

Ultimecia CANNOT travel through time directly.  That was kind of the reason she didn't just transfer herself back in time, right to where Squall is sitting on the can defenseless, and smite him there and then (I note Squall specifically cause apparently, he's the one she wants dead specifically, being the "legendary SeeD" who is to face her in an indefinite Time Loop and always kick her ass).  Her powers can transcend time, as evident in how she can control Edea and Rinoa, but she herself cannot traverse time.  The Time Compression was basically a way to cheat time and her mortal life span (supposedly, Ultimania confirms that all Sorceresses, Ultimecia included, have normal human life spans, regardless of how powerful they are, so she's by no means immortal either) and what not.  She herself has limited control over time.

Its also worth noting that Ultimecia only managed to compress time cause the HEROES LET HER.  That was kind of a gambit on their end; let Ultimecia take control of Rinoa again, and make use of Ellone's powers, to somehow speed up Ultimecia's methods, which would allow them and Ultimecia to break the boundaries of time and finally face off.  Its clear Time Compression is not a simple case of "Snaps fingers, TIME IS COMPRESSED!"  Ultimecia was clearly trying to pull this off at every moment, and it obviously required a lot of work.

FURTHERMORE, I seem to recall that for Ultimecia to successfully compress time, she NEEDS Ellone.  That's why she was taking control of Sorcerress' in that time specifically.   Without Ellone factor in, Ultimecia's just another Sorceress, if an exceptional one (she did, after all, create a GF just by reading Squall's mind, so she's clearly talented to say the least.)

So yeah, Ultimecia's Control Over Time is a bit overrated.  Though, if Dissidia is any indication, she can Freeze Time for limited spans, evident in her fight with Squall, where he slashes her, and she sort of just fades out of the way to another spot instantly, and we even see her freeze time on the spot.  Though, at the same time, Dissidia seems to imply she cannot actually attack until she starts time up again (she can prepare her moves it seems, but they won't do anything until she starts up time again.  She creates a crap load of spears around Squall, but none of them fire off until she has time act up again.)

I know, Dissidia is not the best of things to bank on, but when you have plot powers as vague as Ultimecia's, it may very well be the best source we have :\

[SnowFire]

Ultimecia CANNOT travel through time directly.  That was kind of the reason she didn't just transfer herself back in time, right to where Squall is sitting on the can defenseless, and smite him there and then .

Well, maybe.  Are you taking this from Ultimania as well?  Because she doesn't offer a reason in-game, and a pretty obvious alternative one is "I am safe in my fortified castle in future with dead SeeDs on pikes outside as a message to everyone else and don't want to risk something stupid happening by going to a time period where I don't rule the world."  In other words, she'd leave her body behind out of a proper sense of caution, not because she couldn't take it if she wanted to.

Its also worth noting that Ultimecia only managed to compress time cause the HEROES LET HER.  That was kind of a gambit on their end; let Ultimecia take control of Rinoa again, and make use of Ellone's powers, to somehow speed up Ultimecia's methods, which would allow them and Ultimecia to break the boundaries of time and finally face off.

Yeah, but that's how Our Heroes got to the future, right, Ellone screwing with her powers?  I'm referring to when Ultimecia is dying and has the scene with Squall, young Squall, and Edea in the ending.  That seemed to be her own power to me.

FURTHERMORE, I seem to recall that for Ultimecia to successfully compress time, she NEEDS Ellone.  That's why she was taking control of Sorcerress' in that time specifically.

Beats me about this.  I don't recall anything about this from the game but it might be obscure and/or from Ultimania, so, er, maybe?

[Cmdr_King]

Ultimecia can't travel through time at all, actually.

Her antics in the game were because she had access to the Junction Machine Ellone, a design by Odine that mimicked Ellone's powers.  For whatever reason, it had a limited range and could only send Ulti's consciousness back to the current time.  She needed Ellone's power to send her further back to Adel's body in order to complete time compression.

While she does appear in the ending at the Orphanage, so does Squall!  Time Compression is essentially squashing time and space into a singularity, so when it was undone by Ultimecia's defeat, time spread back out and thus anyone there at Ground Zero could end up in any place or time that they mentally attatched themselves to.  Ultimecia, whether by following Squall's mind or by her own devices, appeared somewhere she could encounter another Sorceress to pass her powers onto and then died.

Now!  That Ultimecia has some power over time and space is a logical assumption; yes, she has to go through a lot of stuff to achieve Time Compression, but the fact is it's still clearly some aspect of her power triggering it, so one might suppose that she has a localized control over time that her Ellone-power fueled antics was amplifying in order to effect all of time simultaneously.

Really, her use of powers in Dissidia Meeple described fits in this the logical conclusions here, though whether Raidou has any powers needed to resist such a thing I have no danged idea.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Closes in a few hours. Vote now!


Fascinating discussion on Ultimecia's plot powers here. I had forgotten so much of FF8's setting. It's a pretty interesting setup despite the poor plot execution... >.>;;