Season 55, Week 6- Vampire fritters.

[superaielman]

Team False Althena (FA, Edge, Massimo, Cinnamon) vs Team Brahms (Brahms, Lyon, Elly, Opera)

H/G pool: Dhaos, Yunalesca, Naoto, Lugia, Lyon, Edge

M/H pool: Saturos, Emelia, Yosuke, Toadstool, Elly, Massimo

L/M pool: Maya, Nightburn, Nergal, Sharmista, Opera, Cinnamon

[superaielman]

H/G:

Yunalesca: 4-0
Lyon: 2-2
Lugia: 2-2
Naoto: 1-3
Edge: 1-3

Yunalesca sweeps, Lyon manages to beat Naoto and Edge. Lugia gets spoiled by Naoto and beats the other two.  Flipped a coin, came up Edge for the final fight. I think Naoto goes down and Lyon up, but it'll be close.

M/H:

Toadstool: 5-0
Emelia: 3-2
Elly: 3-2
Yosuke: 2-3
Massimo: 1-4
Saturos: 1-4

Bloody mess of a pool. Toadstool has a ton of close matches. My kneejerk is that she can status her way past them (Emelia in particular could be trouble).  Saturos spoils Elly and is crushed by the rest. Emelia should outrace Yosuke and avoid a OHKO, though it's very close. Massimo outslugs Saturos and.. I think sleep costs him against Toadstool.  Ugly.

Saturos should go down, but you never know with GS bosses. Yosuke's a good bet to downgrade as well.

L/M:

Maya>Opera>Nergal>Cinnamon>Sharmista

Don't buy Sharmista 2HKOing Nergal, and that is the only remotely close fight in the pool.  Get out of Middle Sharmista.

[Yoshiken]

Wow. A pool where I know 4/6 characters.

H/G: Same as Super's, except I see Naoto beating Edge, methinks. And can't vote on Lyon, which hurts Lugia, but Naoto's not staying up - just the luck of my voting rights.
Yunalesca: 3-0
Naoto: 2-1
Lugia: 1-2
Edge: 0-3

M/H: Only one I can vote on is Yosuke > Saturos.

[Dhyerwolf]

H/G pool: Dhaos, Yunalesca, Naoto, Lugia, Lyon, Edge

Dhaos loses to Yunalesca and Lyon (I think? Faster, NE magic, he's not taking two shots. Although...blah, she's above average speed, but not that fast...so...call it an abstain), beats the rest
Yunalesca versus the PC horde.
Naoto versus the IDable horde.
Lugia loses to Lyon and Edge (125% speed is faster than Lugia to me), unless Sleep's duration is short. Then it depends on when it wears off.

Yunalesca 5-0
Dhaos 3-1
Naoto 3-2
Lyon 2-2
Edge 1-4
Lugia 0-5

M/H pool: Saturos, Emelia, Yosuke, Toadstool, Elly, Massimo

Saturos I don't care to think about.
Emelia...Yosuke can halve the Stun, making it turn 3. But assuming that the Quick Draw leaves him too far behind for his moderate tricks to catch him up. Beats Toadstool too (Stun+Too much too quickly. Topic implies she's acting twice before Toadstool goes at all and she should 2HKO here). Beats Elly (Reaction Shot->Double. Arguably doesn't work though but...hmm), Massimo...yeah, sure Emelia may sweep.

Yosuke loses to Toadstool, Elly, and Massimo halves the Confuse but...hmm, can the HATs be evaded? Never sure. Abstain
Toadstool beats Elly, and loses to Massimo (He can halve status, meaning that he'll be able to transform and then null it).

Emelia 4-0
Toadstool 2-2
Elly 2-2
Massimo 1-2
Yosuke 0-3

L/M pool: Maya, Nightburn, Nergal, Sharmista, Opera, Cinnamon
Maya beats all but Nightburn (Although Nergal might have a shot, but gutting on Nergal disrespect)
Nightburn probably loses to Nergal, beats Sharmisha, loses to Opera (don't see Nightburn having the HP to take 22000 SO 2 damage), and beats Cinnamon.
Nergal beats Sharmista (her Mdef isn't even that good), has a clusterfuck against Opera, and I dunno against Cinnamon. Would I see her halving Dark...
Sharmista just loses

Maya 4-1
Nightburn 3-2
Opera 3-1
Nergal 2-1
Cinnamon 1-3
Sharmista 0-5 (Slow, undurable, 2HKO isn't that great. Unless that unbalance has a massive kick in, downgrade works)

[Dark Holy Elf]

can the HATs be evaded?

They can indeed.

***

H/G pool: Yunalesca, Lugia, Lyon, Edge

Yunalesca statuses everyone. Lugia Safeguards Edge and just outclasses Lyon. So yeah.

'lesca 3-0
Bird 2-1
Swordgirl Gremio 1-2
Orlandu's Rival 0-3

M/H pool: Toadstool, Elly, Massimo

Toadstool flashes her shiny Sleep blocker. Massimo is more of a problem, I don't think Toadstool can do anything to prevent him from unleashing a fatal Berserk Charge.

Elly 1-1
Massimo 1-1
Toadstool 1-1

L/M pool: Maya, Nightburn, Nergal, Sharmista, Opera, Cinnamon

I guess Nightburn sweeps? Maya may beat him, but probably not, he just puts on too much pressure (gravity damage and speed keep the pressure on her through Gospel). 5-0
Maya beats everyone else. Nergal has a shot if she doesn't resist Dark at all, though. 4-1
Opera, wow. Didn't expect this of her. Healing beats Sharmista, dark res beats Nergal. 3-2
Nergal would get two wins in this pool but Dark resist cheats him of them. He still beats Sharmista and Cinnamon. 2-3
Cinnamon at least beats Sharmista by having some healing. 1-4
Sharmista... yeah. 0-5

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Heavy/Godlike: Lugia vs Edge
Yeah... I guess those extra points in Phy Def do make the difference between a Heavy and a Godlike.  (Incidentally, while Lugia is also faster than Ho-oh, it ain't enough to outspeed Edge; it's just that Lugia has the better chance to take the one extra hit than Ho-oh.  What once was 2 coinflips that Ho-oh had to win is now 2 coinflips that Edge has to win.)

Middle/Heavy:  Saturos-Toadstool-Massimo
How much FP Toadstool is allowed could turn the Saturos fight, as SMRPG has no Blind Blockers meaning Toadstool's only reliable damage is Psych Bomb strategy consists entirely of outlasting his resources with Therapy-spam.  Leaning Saty here, though, since you'd still need 10xPCHP Total Damage to finish him, right?  
MMXCM has a Blind Resistor but that buys Massy enough time to "Givin it Everything" at his "true power!"  Has to rely on interceptor, though, since the reduced damage of Protect Lance Gamma might tip the scales... then again, if HATs can miss, he'll need the stacked protection.  (GS delusion lasts about 5 turns, right?)
As for Toadstool v Massy, "Stay Down!" as she can't block both Virus AND Silence... and neither of the other 2 Statuses at all... (blind & Berserk).  Virus would be the one to let by... if it wasn't for Berserk.  Still has to rely on Protect Lance Gamma to reduce Sleep's chances so that it isn't a Spam-at-will.

EDIT:  Futher notes on Saty v Massy:  Unless Saty choses to heal his way out of it, Massy just needs 2 cycles of his "True Power" to take him.  However, even with his Hyper Armor, he's only normal to Fire Damage... like Saty's normally 3HKO Pyroclasm.  (If you take magic as hitting "Shield", it's still a 3HKO due to Massy's low Shield.  Otherwise, it's a 4HKO due to his high HP.  Now, this is with his Armor up.  Without it, subtract 1 number from the above.)

So, right now, I'm leaning Saty > Massy > Toadstool.  Still open for arguments...

[Dark Holy Elf]

For what it's worth, Massimo heals himself of all status when he goes into Hyper Mode, which matters for statuses which don't prevent his transformation action, such as Blind.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Leaning Saty here, though, since you'd still need 10xPCHP Total Damage to finish him, right?  

What? Really? 10xPCHP? I thought I was pretty generous to GS bosses, but 10xPCHP just doesn't sound right.

[Sir Donald 3.2]

Ok, I'm a fool; It's 6.4xPCHP from the Stats topic.

I still can't see how Toadstool can beat Saturos unless you allow her 50 FP or more.  (I allow 25-33, 1/3 of the complement.)  I mean, the only offense she has that isn't impacted by delusion is Psyche Bomb which is 16 FP, and is only a High 4HKO against PCs.  Heat Flash, in addition to causing blind, has damage just shy of a 4HKO under normal circumstances (which makes its damage fail against Bathtub Ring.)  But it still makes Toadstool's regular attack miss half of the time.  (Ok, now I can see how Toadstool could win, but the match would fail as much as than Saturos vs Ho-oh.  Ok, maybe half as much, 32 Attacks plus requisite healing vs 81 total turns...)

And, again, Massy is 3HKOed by Pyroclasm.  This reduction turns it into "Massy needs Interceptor to hit at least once in order to win," making it essentially a coinflip or even a 1d4.

Unfortunately, I already voted.  meh...

[OblivionKnight]

Saturos has...3000 HP?  Average damage about 250?  Puts him at 12x to me. 

What stance do people take on SMRPG FP?  I've always just allowed 99.

[Talaysen]

What stance do people take on SMRPG FP?  I've always just allowed 99.

99

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Saturos has...3000 HP?  Average damage about 250?

Off a glance, that's 1.2x PC HP under my scaling [(3000/250)/10 = 1.2]. Doesn't even avoid a 3HKO against average damage off raw HP - no healer with anything resembling average offense and resource depth would have problems outpacing that if he/she isn't getting 2HKOed. Looks like 1.5x PC HP-bait under more typical scalings. This is just my way of roundaboutly saying "that's some insanely generous scaling", though, because even unscaled -at all-, Saturos would be like 4.8x PC HP assuming 2.5x average damage = 1x PC HP [3000/(250*2.5) => 3000/625 = 4.8]. I dunno, but I honestly don't feel very comfortable with scalings that give bosses more HP than what they can possibly have in-game. >_> I guess you could see it that high if you take lower in-game averages, but for that figure to be true assuming unscaled damage, you need to see your own average damage input nearly halved compared to OK's numbers. And even glancing at stat topic numbers, that theoretical approach honestly would look pretty off.

[Talaysen]

Saturos has...3000 HP?  Average damage about 250?

Off a glance, that's 1.2x PC HP under my scaling [(3000/250)/10 = 1.2]. Doesn't even avoid a 3HKO against average damage off raw HP - no healer with anything resembling average offense and resource depth would have problems outpacing that if he/she isn't getting 2HKOed. Looks like 1.5x PC HP-bait under more typical scalings. This is just my way of roundaboutly saying "that's some insanely generous scaling", though, because even unscaled -at all-, Saturos would be like 4.8x PC HP assuming 2.5x average damage = 1x PC HP [3000/(250*2.5) => 3000/625 = 4.8]. I dunno, but I honestly don't feel very comfortable with scalings that give bosses more HP than what they can possibly have in-game. >_> I guess you could see it that high if you take lower in-game averages, but for that figure to be true assuming unscaled damage, you need to see your own average damage input nearly halved compared to OK's numbers. And even glancing at stat topic numbers, that theoretical approach honestly would look pretty off.

3000 HP, endgame PC HP is 470, 3000/470 = 6.4

That's probably where the number comes from.

[Random Consonant]

Saturos has...3000 HP?  Average damage about 250?

Off a glance, that's 1.2x PC HP under my scaling [(3000/250)/10 = 1.2]. Doesn't even avoid a 3HKO against average damage off raw HP - no healer with anything resembling average offense and resource depth would have problems outpacing that if he/she isn't getting 2HKOed. Looks like 1.5x PC HP-bait under more typical scalings. This is just my way of roundaboutly saying "that's some insanely generous scaling", though, because even unscaled -at all-, Saturos would be like 4.8x PC HP assuming 2.5x average damage = 1x PC HP [3000/(250*2.5) => 3000/625 = 4.8]. I dunno, but I honestly don't feel very comfortable with scalings that give bosses more HP than what they can possibly have in-game. >_> I guess you could see it that high if you take lower in-game averages, but for that figure to be true assuming unscaled damage, you need to see your own average damage input nearly halved compared to OK's numbers. And even glancing at stat topic numbers, that theoretical approach honestly would look pretty off.

In fairness, I imagine that if you took Saturos against a party without any Djinn set ever (and the significant amount of stats they bring, along with a couple of people's best damage) and never use them for summoning the damage average would look pretty pathetic.  Dunno if that's what he's doing here or not, or even why anyone would take this view.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I thought if average endgame damage was 250... and Saturos fights 4 PCs, then they deal ~1000 damage per turn?

Saturos has 3x the average damage per turn, so he takes 3 hits to KO. 2.5HKO is average PCHP, so Saturos is 1.2 PCHP, right?

At least, that's what I assumed was the common view on scaling?

I give him support credit due to Menardi, so essentially I'm only seeing him fighting 2 PCs (only ~500 damage per turn), so his durability doubles to me. I thought I was being really generous...

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I thought if average endgame damage was 250... and Saturos fights 4 PCs, then they deal ~1000 damage per turn?

Saturos has 3x the average damage per turn, so he takes 3 hits to KO. 2.5HKO is average PCHP, so Saturos is 1.2 PCHP, right?

That's just my scaling. I won't claim it's common (I use a far more spartan scaling than most people as far as I know), and it's also among the harshest scalings that I know. However, a big part of why my scaling method tends to be harsh is because I'm also harsh with damage averages in general, assuming rather high-end offense. Saturos could well end up below PC HP to me depending on how sick the damage twinking options could get in-game and how practical those were at endgame.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Well, endgame GS damage twinking options could get really nasty if you allow all of them to enter the battle with unset Djinni. This would allow the PCs to bust out 2 L4 Summons each IIRC, which is a lot of upfront damage and they get the Djinni stat boosts one turn after the Summons have been used. It's a pretty evil strategy, although that would make Saturos and Menardi's opening damage better since the PCs come in with reduced stats.

Neat trade-off if you allow that kind of twinking.