DL Overview topic #3: Reasonableness

[Pyro]

Do you think about whether something is "reasonable" when you decide to allow an equipment or ability  for a PC or cast? Do you make subjective judgements about this sort of thing or apply a fairly strict test?

Consider some sample cases:

1. An ability that requires levels far above normal endgame to get.

2. A piece of equipment that is unique to A PC but is a very rare drop or requires a lot of grinding to get.

3. n ability that is storebought and usable by a portion of the cast but is clearly a defining class feature.

4. A piece of equipment that one would not get without knowledge outside of the game (i.e. a craxy hidden missable skill)

5. An ability that requires leaving the final dungeon right at the end to get from some other location or dungeon.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Hmm. I think I tend to always favor uniqueness over everything. More than just "is it something that belongs to the character", and more like "what possible ways can they be different from the rest of their cast". And anything that supports them being more "different from everyone else" no matter how flimsy the justification, I find myself wanting to support. So I suppose it's "subjectively chosen" in that sense but there's a purpose to it. The more different characters are from each other in a setting that adheres slavishly to averages tends to produce the most interesting results.

A good example might be... I highly support after game skills that are unique (Yamikei, Ultima, etc), but I am okay with ignoring them if this results in all characters being the same (Golden Sun's final class skills come to mind... If you allow them everyone does equal damage across the board just with different elements... Really boring.)

[Dhyerwolf]

I used to be more lenient, but now I think "reasonable" should factor in to some degree.

1. Ability Requiring Above Endgame Level- If allowed, it has to be scaled to what other characters would do at that level (for exampe, Terra's Ultima damage doesn't look as great when everyone else is level 99).

Fei- Kind of torn to some degree. I tend to view pure damage moves less favorability than non-damage, but the move is so DL iconic that I still allow it (I just wish it wasn't such an absurd damage jump). It helps that it isn't a miserable slog to get it for all that there is no purpose. Suffers miserably without it.
Feena- Time Gate...I allow it. I've gotten it as well; man was that a grind. I...think there should be some penalty to fact that the other PCs theoretically will be levelling up spell levels making their stats better, but the reality is if you get Time Gate, you uses Howl and Heal and forgot anyone besides Feena existed in battle (Killed them to save the time where you'd have to keep defending?), so....whatever. Time Gate is already an easily foiled strat in the DL since it's not a strong kill. Feena really wants or she suffers miserably.
Golden Sun- Don't allow the damage spells (so beyond endgame and all it does it mess up the damage curve you actually see in game). Also makes Djinn seem more potent, which is fine since they are fun.
Jack- A bit torn here. I would probably say it would be based on: Does he suck in game with the damage he does for most of it?
Lezard (VP 2)- I allow him Heal since it's like 2 levels at endgame and there's not really any other VP 2 mage that gets representation
Rolf- NO. I can justify Fei's because it's not a crazy amount of levelling in the scheme of things, but Rolf's is double endgame EXP and randoms were paltry on EXP from my recollection. Not to mention that it also hurts his allies???
Star Ocean 3- I allow Blood Scylla, but not anything else for the same reason as GS 2: in terms of what you get as a damage curve at endgame will be completely different. I'm not throwing of the actual endgame balance this way.
Terra- Ultima is Scaled to what other PCs do at Level 99, so it looks a lot more average, Break is allowed. Losing Break would hurt, but Fire 3's damage would keep her in Godlike regardless.

2. Generally not a fan of very rare drop items. It depends on how rare we are talking a I guess. Ones I am fine with for sure:
Fina's Cupil Ring- I've noted this before, but it felt pretty easy to farm (the enemies swarmed an area and came in large packs) and it feels like a standin for the Focus Robe, which you get off of Fina's doppleganger (and Aika gets Swirlmarang and Vyse gets Captain's Hat). Fina also gets by far the best use out of the Robe, so this is a case where I feel it's making it look more realistic to in game performance

Breath of Fire 2 had a few I didn't find legal (mostly to Katt's detriment, but those drops rates were pretty abysmal). When something is described as near 1%, that's generally a bad sign (unless they come in large groups  and are very accessible).

3. Storebought abilities that characterize a class: YES. I very much believe in trying to reflect good magic stats when I can make delineations that I find at least somewhat reasonable. Specific game thoughts that come to mind.

Chrono Cross- Storebought elements assigned by elements
Suikoden 2-5- Yes, I definitely allow storebought runes under a few circumstances:
-->Characters can't have a rune that uses MP already (unless it is horrible trash and the character has insane in game capacity not reflected in the DL in a manner that would be worthy of extra compensation aka Miakis)
-->Characters must have a least 1 L4 (enough magic to at least potentially justify running them as a mage)
-->Character must be able to reach the pinnacle of the element in some manner
S2- Natural As
S3- S/A+/maybe A
S4- Natural 4s
S5- Well, natural As are rare, so this doesn't help. There are way too many Bs, but...some characters have rare equips that can boost either Fire or Wind. So, I allow these characters to do this to get As (they obviously have to be wearing the equips that do this)
Wild Arms 5- I allow the 3 that start with the Mediums, and I am cool with Avril having Mountain (at the same time, if we doing the 6 divided up, then Avril would be Sky, Dean would be Earth and Rebecca would be Sea). That said...I'm not averse to doing the 6 Mediums setup. Making the other 3 more interesting are alright by me.

4. A Piece of Equipment that needs crazy knowledge- Depends. I can't think up too many examples off the top of my head.
Valkyrie Profile- I am good with this because it's tied to getting the good ending, so it feels more reasonable to find about via FAQ. Doesn't hurt that it's DL iconic.

But if it's crazy missable and not innately tied to anything in particular like a different ending? I don't think I would allow that, but I'd probably need to hear examples

5. I have no problems with this; it's better than basically everything in category 1.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I am pretty harsh on most of the things described, much moreso than DJ or Dhyer anyway.


1. Above endgame levels: almost always not. Who cares if Guv gets more damage at Level 64 or whatever, you're nowhere close to that. Terra learning Ultima at Level 99 is an obscure point of trivia. etc.

Fei's Yamikei is much worse than people normally give it credit for, you have to power-grind deathblows in addition to grinding levels. Kokei is also terrible. Both skills give Fei an advantage he never enjoys in-game, they can screw off. It doesn't help that Fei is actively awful at learning DBs in-game.

VP2 Lezard gets Heal, WTF? His level is fixed! I mean, if you want to allow it because you allow aftergame stuff, okay, but you'd better allow those! He never has Heal outside the aftergame.

No Time Gate/etc. either. More stuff which is "unique" because some FAQ said so, I certainly never got it and nor did anyone else playing the game in a remotely efficient way.

As far as I'm concerned, the only reason to be lenient on this front is if a character is close to getting the skill at endgame level. I allow Terra and Celes their L3 spells because they're close, and would do the same for Kokei if level were the only block for getting it. It helps that in Terra/Celes' case, it represents an advantage they hold in-game, their high magic stats. (Too bad about Relm...)


2. Rare drops: It depends on "A lot of grinding" I guess. I'm pretty okay with Katt's MeowST because it doesn't seem that unreasonable to me, it's roughly 1/32 per 2-Carm formation and those are extremely common. But 1/128, or a rare/hard-to-kill enemy, would push this to "no" to me, like the BoF3 Goo King Sword.


3. Class-unique stuff: You know what doesn't define a class? Colour-corresponding elements in CC, which PCs of one colour don't use better than those of any other! (Except the ones which are actually locked to PCs of that colour.)

S3: Anything which rewards A+ had better reward A as well, or neither, since I'd rather have the latter in-game. A+'s are dumb with their ludicrous CP requirements, I'm honestly inclined to cap them below A+ except that Thomas doesn't really need to suffer more. I'm a bit leery at handing out more magic runes in most of these games though because the "1-2 shots of L4 damage" gets really overrated in the DL compared to in-game with the total lack of MP healing, and I'd rather not have duellers like Mel exacerbating this. (We already have to live in a bizarre alternate universe where Piccolo is a better offensive PC than Borus, that's bad enough.)

As you can tell I'm not a fan of most of this category. It often relies on wishy-washy arguments which aren't applied consistently, they are more arbitrary and less intuitive and don't honestly change duelling casts in a way I'm a fan of anyway.


4. I generally assume knowledgeable players (fewer debate that way), so this one isn't much of an issue for me. If something is already borderline, though, this could be part of an argument for disallowing it.


5. Uh. Um. Maybe? It'd have to be something I'd be willing to buy an average player to do, though. Like... I'm okay with holding shamans against the final BoF2 bosses because wanting to fight the endgame in your super-badass forms seems like something a number of players would want to do. If, however, it was a matter of redoing the final dungeon in order to get one character 5 more attack, or something, I'd probably not consider it. I dunno, this is probably case-by-case for me, but I can't think of too many instances where it comes up. I guess one example would be that I wouldn't allow Mog/Edgar both the Aura Lance (you can get a second by leaving and betting a Sky Render), though that has the extra problem of Cyan kinda wanting the Sky Render anyway (in case he's berserked or against low def).

[SnowFire]

Djinn hit the nail on the head: getting an interesting and "fair" DL interp is the most important thing, and everything else should bend to support this.  Sometimes that means taking characters before the endgame (FFX, FEs with tight stat caps), sometimes it means taking characters in quasi-aftergame.  All bow to this subjectivity. 

In-game use matters some too.  For example, leaving the final dungeon to get something that would be really helpful in the DL but worthless for the final?  (e.g. farming up all-status blocker items in XS3)?  No.  Same with crazy overleveling (Aht's Dreamless: useless vs. both the final & the bonus superboss, but super great in the DL or if you were doing some kind of initial-equipment only run and still cared about losing to randoms).  Make it so that there's a point in-game and I'm more receptive.

Anyway:
1. Usually not.
2. Usually not.
3. Usually so (although "defining" is pretty vague).
4. Usually so.
5. Usually so.

[Dhyerwolf]

VP2 Lezard gets Heal, WTF? His level is fixed! I mean, if you want to allow it because you allow aftergame stuff, okay, but you'd better allow those! He never has Heal outside the aftergame.

My memory on Lezard is shaky. I thought there was a spell he gets a L52, but he's L50? Or maybe that's the aftergame part and he can't gain levels?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Lezard leaves at the end of chapter 3 (when he's nowhere near 50 unless you grind like mad) and rejoins for exactly one fight in Chapter 5, which he won't have Heal for. Therefore, if he gets Heal, it's only by levelling him in the aftergame.

Anyway, even aside from the Lezard temp specifics, Meeple made a strong case for not allowing overlevelled spells in VP2: by Level 99, apparently every mage gets every spell. That decreases uniqueness, which is generally bad.

[hinode]

1. This is an ancient interp dating back to the RPGP dates that I struggle to actually justify for any reason than sheer inertia. Endgame levels should have some fluidity compared to the stat topic listing so something like Terra/Celes getting their L3 spells is fine, but deep postgame/grinding stuff is little more than trivia in practice. I guess for a game like DQ4r where there's a lengthy postgame of ambiguous canonicity I'd use C6 levels instead of C5 as a cutoff point for a bit more leniency, but that still leaves out Gigasword and a ton of Psaro's moves.

2. If something is "grind 50 kills of x and get it reliably" I'd generally allow it unless the number is something completely absurd. If it's purely random I'd gauge how likely someone is to get it without trying very hard. A 2% drop rate from a super common enemy that appears in large mobs is much better in practice than a 10% drop rate from something that is super rare and hard to kill when it does show up.

3. Uh, if there was a hypothetical healing spell that was universaly usable but only worth 10% HP on save when used by a small portion of the cast who could get 70% out of it, I'd probably allow that. The Suikoden and CC examples cited thus far have not been terribly convincing, though.

This is pretty much tangential, but for a game like Lufia 2 where MP isn't a major restraint on in-game usage I've toyed with allowing purely offensive storebought magic as an analogy to storebought weapons. This would let PCs take advantage of a good magic stat which would potentially get reflected in a higher average without the sort of skillset creep that storebought healing/support magic would give. At most it adds more elemental options, but those are liabilities far more ofthen than they are advantageous in the DL anyhow. FE has technically set a precedence for storebought magic by literally making them equipped as a weapon, but thinking on it I don't think it's that bad an idea so long as it's limited to pure damage magic (and get factored into the damage average) aside from games like Suiko where 1-2 shots get massively inflated in value?

4. Perfect knowledge of the game seems like a practical requirement to avoid hyper-subjective questions about what an unspoiled average player is likely to find out and not find out on their own. Now, if there's something that's a total pain in the ass to get even if you know what to do, that might be a problem.

5. Depends on how practical it is to leave the dungeon and come back in-game, to be judged on a case by casis basis.

One other thought that came to my mind: should sidequests that are technically not aftergame but clearly harder/more annoying than the final dungeon count for DL legality? Thinking of something like Lower Morlia in Tales of Phantasia or Dragon's Den in FF6A or (technically) VP2's Seraphic Gate. The latter two require backtracking out of the final dungeon, to an absurd degree in SG's case IIRC, so it does tie into the original Q5.

[Dhyerwolf]

3. Uh, if there was a hypothetical healing spell that was universaly usable but only worth 10% HP on save when used by a small portion of the cast who could get 70% out of it, I'd probably allow that. The Suikoden and CC examples cited thus far have not been terribly convincing, though.

This is pretty much tangential, but for a game like Lufia 2 where MP isn't a major restraint on in-game usage I've toyed with allowing purely offensive storebought magic as an analogy to storebought weapons. This would let PCs take advantage of a good magic stat which would potentially get reflected in a higher average without the sort of skillset creep that storebought healing/support magic would give. At most it adds more elemental options, but those are liabilities far more ofthen than they are advantageous in the DL anyhow. FE has technically set a precedence for storebought magic by literally making them equipped as a weapon, but thinking on it I don't think it's that bad an idea so long as it's limited to pure damage magic (and get factored into the damage average) aside from games like Suiko where 1-2 shots get massively inflated in value?

I should note that I for that Suikoden and Chrono Cross, I only allow damage spells. So yes, even if someone was an A in Wind in Suikoden 2, they'll only get the attack spells. Basically it's the theory you described: if someone has a good stat in game where you can easily take advantage of it due to storebought stuff, I like the DL to reflect that.

That said, at least Suikoden 1 is irrelevant because there's no way to split up runes by my views, so no luck for anyone there. I would say that while there might be only 1-2 L4 shots, L3s can be pretty nasty for a good chunk of time.

Having just replayed Suikoden 2, even the L2 on Fire is great for clearing out randoms quickly and Lightning generally is great to cut boss HP down to size. There's only 1-2 shots of the best, but even lesser spells can really stand out. Fire, Lightning and Wind all have L2 or L3 spells that are excellent if you have the right stats (God forbid you make someone as absurd as Luc, who has the magic, the elemental stats AND the speed).

[Tide]

I'm similar to NEB I feel. To me, I prefer to be more consistent versus bending my will towards allowing things just to make people more interesting. It's easier to follow and easier to do analysis versus bending things around (and easily gets into traps of being biased).

1) Depends on how above normal levels that skill is. I'm pretty strict on this nowdays. I can see some fluctuation in ending levels being like +1 to +5 but any more than that I pretty much say a 'no' to. Higher levels tend to deflate how useful/unique some things are typically.

2) Also depends on how you define "very rare"! One check that I do is, to compare the time spent on looking for that equipment versus just grinding. Also depends on enemy rarity. If its a rare dropped combined with rare enemy, typically, that's an automatic no. This is why stuff like Raquel's Princess Sabre is  okay but stuff like Poo's stupid sword is a big no.

3) Typically no. Oh no, some people get screwed over and aren't representative of how good they are in-game. This happens to lots of other people and is just one of the DL's innate flaws. We don't bend over backwards to help out all those other people either, so yeah, Relm can deal dealwithit.jpg.

4) Define 'crazy missable skill'! The DL typically assumes that the player has some advanced knowledge as this avoids the problem hinode noted. Past that, it depends on the complexity I guess. For example, if it was a skill passed to you from a simple choice, I would assume that you would have the skill. However, if the skill required you to talk to NPC#24, go around to the other side of the map, then deliver some random item #265 to NPC #375, and then come back and speak to NPC#24, then fight superboss #17, then yeah, no.

5) Typically yes., although this depends on other factors as well. How complex is it to get those skills, how much extra time is it to get those skill, how much does it help you for any side/bonus content, is there any side/bonus content that you might leave the final dungeon anyway, etc.

[VySaika]

1. An ability that requires levels far above normal endgame to get.

Depends on the game, tbh. Game where gaining levels is trivial, prolly will allow. Game where grinding is miserable, prolly won't. Doubt I allow Yamekei these days, but more due to the bs deathblow grinding(why you do this square. why) rather than the level issue. Ultima is a no, but the l3s are fine, etc.

2. A piece of equipment that is unique to A PC but is a very rare drop or requires a lot of grinding to get.

I'm generally pretty lenient on this one, though if it jacks up the value of the character too much I'll usually say no.

3. n ability that is storebought and usable by a portion of the cast but is clearly a defining class feature.

Eh. I go back and forth on this depending on the game in question. For suiko I do like the idea of people who are clearly supposed to be mages getting magic runes(when maybe they don't start with one for some reason) but at the same time I don't really want to open up the floodgates to, as has been said, too much of the cast getting that 1 shot of an L4 which is way more valuable in a duel than in-game. Generally I lean on no, but I don't have a hard rule about it, I'll be honest.

It helps when a character has some indicator that they're supposed to have or use n ability even if they don't start with it. High level with a rune type in S3 is something along those lines, sure. If that's in play, I'm more likely to let the char have it.

4. A piece of equipment that one would not get without knowledge outside of the game (i.e. a craxy hidden missable skill)

We generally assume perfect or near perfect knowledge anyway.

5. An ability that requires leaving the final dungeon right at the end to get from some other location or dungeon.

This I actually tend to be against, even if it's a unique thing. And this is entirely due to my own playstyle, once I'm in the final stretch the only thing that's getting me to leave is something that will change the ending(like keep a character alive or something) if I go do it. Just for a piece of gear or ability? Nope.gif. I might make an exception if a game has a whole mess of optional endgame content open up instead of just one or two things, but even then likely no(also can't think of any game that does this off the top of my head).

I should note that I for that Suikoden and Chrono Cross, I only allow damage spells. So yes, even if someone was an A in Wind in Suikoden 2, they'll only get the attack spells.

I actually really dislike this kind of stuff. For CC, sure, you can just say you only let them buy attack elements because the elements are all bought individually, done. For Suiko? A Wind Rune has other spells on it, saying you let them have the rune but only the attack spells is just...well, it's making shit up and even MORE arbitrary than either fully allowing or fully disallowing the rune. I mean, it's not like I can tell you not to do it, but it makes me twitch and completely disregard any arguments based on it. <_<

[Pyro]

1. An ability that requires levels far above normal endgame to get.

Definite no for me. Maybe if it is close to endgame levels. This is really annoying in cases whete a skill itself gets a lot better at the lower level... For example if it does fixed damage and gets scaled to a lower level where the rest of the cast does less damage because their damage depends on level. Guv's Dragon Soul for example. Heck no.

2. A piece of equipment that is unique to A PC but is a very rare drop or requires a lot of grinding to get.
I consider it reasonable if it does not take more than a certain time to get... Although if it is too obscure I say no.

3. n ability that is storebought and usable by a portion of the cast but is clearly a defining class feature.
I tend to like these for the most part. If a cast has a limited number of healers then I say more power to them even if it is like 1/3rd of the cast. It is not their system fighting but their subdivision that is fighting. 1/2 is too much, but 1/4th is probably cool with me. I remember letting the Jeanne DArc get their class skills, which made them more unique if anything.

4. A piece of equipment that one would not get without knowledge outside of the game (i.e. a craxy hidden missable skill)
I probably won't consider something crazy. Vandalier Ash? I guess other examples would be knowing grom a FAQ what drops to hunt for and such. Decinitely take this into account however

5. An ability that requires leaving the final dungeon right at the end to get from some other location or dungeon.
These days I would say no honestly. This may fall under obscurity for me. Tales series comes to mind. Probably not too cool with Morlia for Phantasia anymore but the Vesperia excess final dungeon is right there tempting you before the final so I can see it.

Leavingtge FF6 dungeon at the end to get Gau's Veteran from the Veldt seeme excessive too.

[Random Consonant]

Might as well weigh in on this one.

1. Generally not these days, unless it is also learnable by some other reasonable means or exists in that level range where you can squint and say "close enough."  So WA4 is fine, FF6 L3s are fine, Break/Vanish are fine because they're off WoB espers at reasonable rates, Pearl/Flare is probably stretching things, Meteor/Ultima are most certainly not fine.  Definitely don't allow Yamikei these days, and yeesh DB grinding probably makes Kokei a stretch too.

2. Define very rare.  I'm pretty okay with allowing WA4 drops despite only having gotten a couple?  But something that generally exists in that 1/128-1/256 range is hell^no.  Some of Gau's rages also fall under this here to me given that grinding for rages can pretty much get fucked.

3. Depends on game and cast size/composition.  Something like FF1 I'm fine with it (and if I wasn't I certainly wouldn't make an exception for Haste) since it's a small cast composed of generic classes and I don't see a compelling reason to penalize them for not having copious amounts of filler (or for having an even number classes as opposed to an odd number, for that matter).  Games where it's over 50%, certainly not regardless of cast size, though I've considered scaling up what certain characters start with from time to time (but never actually remember to do this when voting on matches actually starts...) or some other inclination (DS2 stat reqs for boost/amp skills would be fine, Trails orbment locks less so but the alternative would either be to unlazy enough to make a stat topic for SC that scales up from what people start with or give them nothing, which inflates Agate and as such is a grave sin).  For games where it's not near-universal and isn't small and/or is composed of non-generics... I'd agree that 50% is too much unless the cast is small, though I haven't quite firmly pinned down how I'd smooth out the transition from small casts to large ones in that regard.

4. Near-perfect knowledge does tend to be assumed, but something that involves a long and complicated process like Vandalier Ash is hell^no.

5. Depends on practicality and how useful the thing in question is I guess, but in practice I'm too lazy to sort this out on a case-by-case basis.