Author Topic: Season 61 Week 4: Listen to the Melody and Mallow out, Dahna; Pikachu your match  (Read 5720 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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On Levin vs. Chie:
No Persona 4, I assume Chie has to do something on her Power Charge turn or lose it, natch,

Nope, Power Charge lasts until your next applicable action. So if he wants to play the waiting game, Chie can turtle (or use Bufula). PC charge lasting more than a turn was like 80% of my strategy against P4 bosses.

Also, not like it matters, but...Snow, Red Comet deals more damage than Blanca's regular attack (300 to 240 or so).  It's still below average!  But better than his normal attack sequence!

I thought he was referring to how WW's Magic defense was way better than her physical defense?


XF doesn't have a Defend command?!  I...  what.  Weird.  I thought I remembered using it at one point.  Never mind then.

XF has WAIT Command! Does that mildly increase defenses?

Dark Holy Elf

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It does not.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

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Godlike:

Emelious (G3) vs TimeLord (Saga)- Hmm, Emo is about...2 to 2.5 PC HP to me. Which is about where TL's damage falls! Don't think I have quite a precise enough view to know this for sure.
Lamington (Dis) vs Sephiroth (FF7)- Hmm, gut is loooow Lamington respect for his durability (Able to get him to dash ahead and have support not move huuurts)

Heavy:
Clarissa (WA:XF) vs Arnaud (WA4)- Seeing Clarissa's damage as relatively better than the topic makes this easy.
Chie (P4) vs Levin (WA:XF)

Middle:

White Wizard (FF1) vs Blanca (SH2)
Blastoise (PKMN) vs Virginia (WA3)

Light:

Dahna (G3) vs Mallow (SMRPG)
Pikachu (PKMN) vs Melody (WA3)
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Okay, stream of consciousness (kinda) about the Clarissa/Arnaud match.

Clarissa's optimum strategy actually isn't just Rob Turn->Sac->Sac, but to use Rob Turn until she has three upcoming turns, Howling Shot to safely attack (it can miss, but can't be reflected). Howling Shot + full-HP Sacrifice kills Arnaud very, very easily, seeing as a single Sacrifice does 97% to Arnaud. His HP isn't that above average.

So, we basically have a situation like this:

If Clarissa has one upcoming turn:
75% chance of this becoming 2
25% of Clarissa "losing"

If she has two upcoming turns:
75% chance of this becoming 3
25% chance of this becoming 1

If she has three:
31% chance of Clarissa advancing to the stage where she can win with one more Sacrifice.
69% of dropping to two turns

Sacrifice: 75% chance to win on first hit, 25% chance to "lose"


I know there's a way to calculate situations like this but I forget how. Anyway, if you just consider the simplest outcomes from using a max of 3 Rob Turns, then using Howling Shot if she has three turns, or just two Sacrifices if she doesn't (or if the first HS misses), then she has a 45.4% chance of winning. I suspect the actual odds are higher but I can't prove it, and I'm not confident they're over 50% at all. However!

I put "lose" in quotation marks because in all cases Clarissa does have a chance to come back, it's just not very good. Having the first Sacrifice reflected lowers her HP to the point where her offence really sucks, so I'll assume she always loses there. However, giving Arnaud a turn is less instantly fatal. His best strategy seems to be to use Slow Down and then Blast her once (assuming an instant double), and hope for luck with Rob Turn missing from there.

Now, if the first Rob Turn misses, we get

Rob Turn (miss) -> Slow Down -> Blast -> Rob Turn -> Rob Turn -> Sacrifice -> Sacrifice.

Yes, two Sacrifices still kill. One Blast means they first does 70% instead of 97%, the second therefore does 35%. So I was wrong; Arnaud shouldn't use Blast after all, but instead Sleep. This gives him a 50% chance to give himself a win.

So even on the 25% chance of Rob Turn missing, Clarissa just needs to dodge Sleep and then to make four 75% shots in a row (15.8% chance). Unlikely? Sure. But if you add up 15.8% of 25% (3.9%) and add that to the 45.4% chance of winning with the first Rob Turn hitting using the initial strategy, her odds are now something like 49.3%. And there's more. If that second Rob Turn listed in the recovery strategy misses, that's okay, as long as she dodges another Sleep and Rob Turns twice + Sacrifice twice again. And so on. Baaasically, I'm pretty sure it's going to come up with over a 50% chance that Clarissa wins. Very close, though! And if someone wanted to penalise her for relying on an unreliable strategy like this (as indeed she does aganst anyone with above average HP), that's fine with me.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Pyro

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I kinda feel... dirty for doing this, but I have to point out that Clarissa straight up loses if Arnaud hits her with Slow Down, assuming he isn't followed up with being killed. The reason for this is because Rob Turn is not effective *AT ALL* against someone faster than you are. It doesn't buy you anything but a wasted turn.

Godlike:

Emelious (G3) vs TimeLord (Saga): Pity. TimeLord winning here would be so hilariously appropriate (TIME DOLPHIN OH YEAH). TimeLord just doesn't have the offense to actually pull this out.
Lamington (Dis) vs Sephiroth (FF7): Battle of the bosses lots of folks just outright stomp! Anyways, Seph has the speed/damage advantage to secure the match, really.

Heavy:
Clarissa (WA:XF) vs Arnaud (WA4): ARGH WHY DO I HAVE TO BE HONEST WHY CAN'T I JUST VOTE CLARISSA.
Chie (P4) vs Levin (WA:XF): Chie is an evasive little thing. So she gets her three turns. Also physical counters.

Middle:

White Wizard (FF1) vs Blanca (SH2)
Blastoise (PKMN) vs Virginia (WA3)

Light:

Dahna (G3) vs Mallow (SMRPG)
Pikachu (PKMN) vs Melody (WA3):

Dark Holy Elf

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I kinda feel... dirty for doing this, but I have to point out that Clarissa straight up loses if Arnaud hits her with Slow Down, assuming he isn't followed up with being killed. The reason for this is because Rob Turn is not effective *AT ALL* against someone faster than you are. It doesn't buy you anything but a wasted turn.

Er, no? Here's how Rob Turn works against someone faster than the caster:

Clarissa: Rob Turn.
Arnaud: Turn stolen by Clarissa. Clarissa uses Rob Turn.
Arnaud: Turn stolen by Clarissa. Clarissa uses Rob Turn.
Clarissa: Has her own turn, can do something useful.
Arnaud: Turn stolen by Clarissa. etc.

It's -unlikely- to result in a win because Rob Turn has to hit a lot of times, but it's possible.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Pyro

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When Clarissa gets the turn via Rob Turn her CTB is set to 100. It isn't a free action. So after she gets the Rob Turn whoever is faster goes next.

If *SHE* is faster she can get 3 turns in a row by using Rob Turn on a turn she robbed from the person.

If THEY are faster she can only delay the inevitable.


And this will be the last argument I make against Clarissa. From here on out I just keep my mouth shut~

Dark Holy Elf

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Really? Learned something new then.

Clarissa can still spam Rob Turn until Slow Down wears off! ... yeah not too likely.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Talaysen

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Really? Learned something new then.

Clarissa can still spam Rob Turn until Slow Down wears off! ... yeah not too likely.

Not enough MP anyway.  >.>

SnowFire

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Having the first Sacrifice reflected lowers her HP to the point where her offence really sucks

Er...  am I missing something here?  Sacrifice does ~80% PCHP or so conservatively (and it sounds like you put it at 97%+, depending on if you meant ".97 PCHP" or "97% of Arnaud's HP"), and Clarissa just lost half her HP.  So Clarissa would need to be a 1.6 PCHP tank to have a chance at surviving a reflected Sacrifice.  Granted you already note she'd already lose, but it seems she'd lose due to being dead, not her offense sucking.

Anyway, interesting match.

OblivionKnight

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If she's dead, her offense REALLY does suck, though - it's effectively 0.
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Talaysen

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Having the first Sacrifice reflected lowers her HP to the point where her offence really sucks

Er...  am I missing something here?  Sacrifice does ~80% PCHP or so conservatively (and it sounds like you put it at 97%+, depending on if you meant ".97 PCHP" or "97% of Arnaud's HP"), and Clarissa just lost half her HP.  So Clarissa would need to be a 1.6 PCHP tank to have a chance at surviving a reflected Sacrifice.  Granted you already note she'd already lose, but it seems she'd lose due to being dead, not her offense sucking.

Anyway, interesting match.

Could be comparing the reflected Sacrifice's damage to the WA4 damage average.  So if it does 2000 WA4 damage to Arnaud, then it will do 2000 WA4 damage back to Clarissa, which is like 1/3 of the damage average or something.

Reasonable because reflected spells are complete shit for damage in WA4, since you can do way more damage on your own.  I actually TURNED OFF Raquel's Retaliate in my solo because the damage was so poor and Retaliate stops Raquel from countering after Blocker.

Dark Holy Elf

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Tal hit the nail on the head.

Regardless, voting Arnaud.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.