Author Topic: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10  (Read 1470 times)

superaielman

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Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« on: November 16, 2010, 01:28:36 AM »
Ripping off one of Dhyer's old topics. The format's simple enough, characters are paired off against ten fighters from another division.

Doll- Dispel! Status! Absolutely awful stats and no damage! Being a human mage in Saga sucks.
Rinoa- Can FF8's only winless character outshine the competition for once?
Oliver- Power Hungry Fool for Godlike.

Light:

Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7)
Doll vs Akaghi (S4)
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Doll vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)
Doll vs Beecham (S1)
Doll vs Rahal (S5)
Doll vs Serra (FE7)
Doll vs Yushis (OB)
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1)
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7)
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4)
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)
Rinoa vs Beecham (S3)
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5)
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7)
Rinoa vs Yushis (OB)
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1)
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)

Oliver (FE10) vs Lowen (FE7)
Oliver vs Akaghi (S4)
Oliver vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Oliver vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)
Oliver vs Beecham (S3)
Oliver vs Rahal (S5)
Oliver vs Serra (FE7)
Oliver vs Yushis (OB)
Oliver  vs Black Wizard (FF1)
Oliver vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 07:22:10 PM by superaielman »
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superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2010, 01:58:58 AM »
Light:

Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7)- I don't think Doll can stop Lowen from getting off two attacks. She can delay things some with charm/glass wall, but I don't think she has the JP to make that work.
Doll vs Akaghi (S4)- Too fast.
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1)- Kasim may well be slower. Even if he's not, he has appalling magical stats and is short range physical only. Fail.
Doll vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)- I don't think Doll can keep him locked down for long enough before he runs out of SP.
Doll vs Beecham (S1)- Charm-->Shadow Servant-->wear out? Eh, sure. Silent Lake wins him the fight, but SL takes for fucking ever to fire.
Doll vs Rahal (S5)- Rahal.
Doll vs Serra (FE7)- HA
Doll vs Yushis (OB)- Yushis is horribly weak to dark magic, but still. Doll offense. Status isn't doing shit against Yushis evasion/Mdef.
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1)- Wins the status war (...), is faster (............).
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)- I *think* Doll provokes an L1 limit before statusing Aeris out with Phantasmshot?

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7)- Should have enough defense to shrug off Rinoa doubles, and should be able to maniuplate his damage well enough to avoid a limit.
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4)- Rinoa needs to hit a limit and hit a fatal limit. Akaghi's fast enough to give her trouble on both fronts.
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1)- Kasim is limit bait.
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)- smashes past limit.
Rinoa vs Beecham (S1)- Breath of ice should be enough limit chipping.
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5)- Rahal.
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7)- I think?
Rinoa vs Yushis (OB)- Yushis can't avoid a limit.
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1)- BW can.
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)- Limit to the face.

Oliver (FE10) vs Lowen (FE7)- Even if he doesn't double, he sure as shit is 2HKOing.
Oliver vs Akaghi (S4)- lol
Oliver vs Kasim Hazel (S1)- Oh good lord. Goes first, isn't doubled.
Oliver vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)- Goes first, doubles, splat. Etc.
Oliver vs Beecham (S1)- Oliver Pdef makes Beecham's offense look Emilylike.
Oliver vs Rahal (S5)- HOW DO YOU NOT DOUBLE OLIVER?!?! FAIL RAHAL
Oliver vs Serra (FE7)- Doubles.
Oliver vs Yushis (OB)- IMMUNES HOLY MAGIC
Oliver vs Black Wizard (FF1)- Oliver's got good RES, at least. Enough to slow down doubled BW status.
Oliver vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)- Seal Evil.

Rinoa: 5-5
Doll: 3-7
Oliver: 3-7
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2010, 04:47:39 AM »
Doll starts with gun skills.... TwoGun and QuickDraw + Boundshot isn't horrible damage... >.>;;

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2010, 04:59:18 AM »
No, she doesn't.

EDIT: She does start with a gun equipped, but that's not good enough for me, or Super it seems. However, she has no gun skills, even with system data, which generally shows how the game builds a character; she just gets more dark/mystic magic.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2010, 05:04:07 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2010, 05:41:40 AM »
Light:

Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7) - Fascination and Powergrab each cost 0 JP when Magic Mastery is achieved.  If Fascination lasts for more than one turn, Powergrab is decent draining and occasionally inflicts STR Down.  Lowen has issues damaging her past that.
Doll vs Akaghi (S4) - More Fascination/Powergrab?
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Doll vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) - Fascination runs Zhuzhen out of SP just fine, methinks.
Doll vs Beecham (S1)
Doll vs Rahal (S5)
Doll vs Serra (FE7) - Fascination/Powergrab probably outpaces her damage?  Sure.
Doll vs Yushis (OB) - Don't think I know OB well enough.
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1) - Sure.
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - Fascination->PhantasmShot?  Even Venom is deadly to Aeris, as poison damage doesn't build up her meter.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2010, 08:46:33 AM »
FF 8?! Use better games! That said, Rinoa's the only person I have a strong enough voting basis for here

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7)- Unsure of Lowen's effective in game speed re: doubles/doubled
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4)- EVasion and doubles
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)- Well, Zhuzhen might be able to outheal out of her damage, but gut is not so much. Rinoa's physical is decent, but not sure here
Rinoa vs Beecham (S1)- Beecham is not good at avoiding the limit range.
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5)
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7)
Rinoa vs Yushis (OB)
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1)
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)

Rinoa 6-2
...into the nightfall.

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #6 on: November 16, 2010, 07:20:11 PM »
Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7) - Not too sure of Doll's damage but I doubt it's any good.  Pretty sure Lowen 2HKOs her to start with as well, as that HP looks laughable.  Not going to give status attempts too much credit and GlassShield is only delaying the inevitable since Lowen can get around the counters with Javelins.  To add insult to injury, I think Doll just *barely* misses out on doubling using a -3.5 AS convention, though this probably doesn't matter too much if I'm wrong.
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1) - uh sure
Doll vs Beecham (S1) - There was a Beecham in S1?
Doll vs Serra (FE7) - Serra tank puny mage damage.
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1) - OH FUCK THIS
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - ...

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7) - Lowen is -3.8 AS compared to average.  He is however tanky and does have damage control and should be able to pull out a killer crit in time.
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1) - lol
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7) - Serra is about as bad as Lucius at taking physicals.
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1) - ...pass
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - ...pass

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #7 on: November 16, 2010, 07:21:52 PM »
S3 Beecham, fixing that.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Yoshiken

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2010, 12:23:10 PM »
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4) - Evasion and speed? Yeah, ouch.
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1) - Can chip with weaker spells, avoids a Limit. Don't see his durability quite so low that FF8 non-Gunblade physicals can kill him before he wins. >_>
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsborough (FF7) - oh dear god what. Rinoa gets Limit first, wins? >_>

Oliver vs Akaghi (S4) - FE magic is evadable. That spells death for Oliver.
Oliver vs Black Wizard (FF1) - FF1 didn't have split defences, did it? Yeah, that kinda seals this one.
Oliver vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - Talking of sealing! Seal Evil, Oliver cries, and he isn't avoiding the Limit.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #9 on: November 18, 2010, 12:50:32 AM »
Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7) - Whatever, I'm allowing skills learned from initial equipment.
Doll vs Akaghi (S4) - Glass Shield or Fascination
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1) - Ditto
Doll vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) - Fascination, sure
Doll vs Beecham (S1) - I think?
Doll vs Rahal (S5) - Lol Rahal
Doll vs Serra (FE7) - Guns get countered, Dark magic is resisted and countered, Magical status is hitting Serra's resistance... Yeah, okay.
Doll vs Yushis (OB) - I'm thinking that Dark magic weakness is enough.
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1) - Yep.
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - Fascination + PhantasmShot status works fine.

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7)
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4)
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1)
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1)
Rinoa vs Beecham (S3)
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5)
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7)
Rinoa vs Yushis (OB)
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1)
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7)

Tide

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2010, 04:57:36 AM »
Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7) - Pretty sure Lowen chips past the limit without problem. Weapon switching, crits and all that.
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) - Kneejerk Zhuzhen. Should be able to work around limit range.
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5) - Rahal is offensive suck
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7) - Random's got it. Serra PDur. No amount of evade really helps her here.
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - One of those neither really wants to hit each other. Rinoa has this though if both are forced to attack.

Oliver (FE10) vs Lowen (FE7) - I forgot about Nosferatu (whoo me). That and Oliver not being doubled probably lets him win as a result
Oliver vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1) - No idea. Nos gives Oliver a much better shot though.
Oliver vs Rahal (S5) - ...Super is secretly an Oliver fan. There's no other explanation
Oliver vs Serra (FE7) - Nosferatu means that in the long run, Oliver's going to live a lot longer. I rarely consider Corona, but it may actually trigger here.
Oliver vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7) - Nos makes this slightly more interesting. Aeris basically has to be able to kill when Seal Evil is up. Don't think I see it happening.

EDIT NOTE: Right, Oliver has Nosferatu. That kinda makes most of those matches a reversal. Can't argue with draining, especially when it helps cover the lofty speed a litt.e
« Last Edit: November 21, 2010, 03:44:45 PM by Tide »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2010, 06:19:37 PM »
Djinn: If you -do- allow Doll guns she should easily roll over all of those matches. I think you're underrating their damage, see Meeple's topic (even though I'm pretty sure it's wrong about BoundShot since he didn't understand its random ITD factor, they should still end up as at worst high 3HKO, and I suspect low 2HKO, with whichever of TrickShot or BoundShot ends up doing more damage). Beecham/Serra/BW all get 2HKOed (ITE in Serra's case) which makes it very hard for them to win, she gets actual speed, etc.

Though I do think "initial equipment" is an awfully shaky claim for skills to me, especially for a PC who joins midgame (early midgame to be fair) and the game still hasn't deemed to give her a single skill in it yet.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds (sorta)Light: Saga, FF8, FE10
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2010, 08:38:16 AM »
Doll (Saga) vs Lowen (FE7): I think. Lowen's not bad on stats or anything, going first helps a lot, and Javelins deal with GlassShield. I imagine he wins this before Doll can debilitate him enough. Also, until I see tests proving otherwise, I think PowerGrab is garbage; misses a lot in my experience, draining is minimal, STR Down isn't too effective against anyone with weapons. Could be argued.
Doll vs Akaghi (S4): Lots of 3-2 going on here, but... Doll can spam GlassShield a lot. Probably not enough to win, though? She can also try for PhantasmShot spam, but Akaghi probably kills first. Speed is good stuff. Doll can also go for Charm, but all it does is make him sit there, so it feels questionable.
Doll vs Kasim Hazel (S1): Slow and melee = GlassShield bait.
Doll vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1): Doll has lots of JP and GlassShield with human mastery is dirt cheap. Zhuzhen is probably a little faster, but not enough, especially seeing as he'll need at least 3 turns to win. Goodbye SP.
Doll vs Beecham (S1): Beecham needs to get off SL to win, and Doll will try her hardest to wall that with Fascination. So... which happens first, Fascination missing or Doll getting in enough bonus turns to land a fatal PhantasmShot? Mm... probably the latter.
Doll vs Rahal (S5): Um. Yeah.
Doll vs Serra (FE7): Magical status is a poor choice here, and GlassShield doesn't work.
Doll vs Black Wizard (FF1): Oh look it's BW mdef making charm never miss ever. Granted, unlike Beecham, charm-lock won't work, so... yeah never mind. Speed sure is important to Fascination as a strategy, and everyone who has it except Doll is fast (at least after turn 1). Oops.
Doll vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7): Oh hell if I know. I imagine three PhantasmShots trigger SealEvil, and since Aeris blocks one status and doesn't care about two others (though weirdly, does care about VENOM), she shouldn't be statused until then.

Shadow Magic is offensively worthless. Doll pretty much fights like a generic mystic, just without the speed. This isn't terrible in Light, but yeah.

Rinoa (FF8) vs Lowen (FE7): If Rinoa doubles, she wins (Lowen isn't -that- tanky, he's still 4HKOed). Near as I can tell, though, she doesn't; Lowen is only -3 AS (-3.8 speed, but a bunch of people are weighed down).
Rinoa vs Akaghi (S4): Akaghi only 5HKOs Rinoa (barely misses 4HKO average, Rinoa is slightly above) so he's giving her at least one chance at a decent limit. It occurs to me, though, that he can try to double past that limit. Granted, Rinoa will stop attacking before he does this. But if she does, I'd award Akaghi the win since he's done more damage, and forcing both to attack also lets him win.
Rinoa vs Kasim Hazel (S1): Um yeah. Probably just outslugs.
Rinoa vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1): Go first, 2HKO. Wheeee.
Rinoa vs Beecham (S3): Suspect she may 2HKO here too! Even if she doesn't, though, has a shot anyway since Beecham lacks Akaghi's speed.
Rinoa vs Rahal (S5): lulz
Rinoa vs Serra (FE7): Have fun dodging limits.
Rinoa vs Black Wizard (FF1): Turn 2 Break kicks in just before he gets 2HKOed back.
Rinoa vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7): Actually wins if she gets a limit.

Rinoa looks pretty good in this field, but it's not a good field. Still, high 3HKOer with a trick (that matters in Light, if not really in higher divisions) and no bad stats (wishes she had 1 point more speed though) = there are many worse Lights.

Oliver (FE10) vs Lowen (FE7): Oliver just misses being doubled here, so he can trade Javelin to Nosferatu. Lowen's Javelins are pretty puny weak.
Oliver vs Akaghi (S4): Been underrating Oliver. Even doubled, his pdur (0.7) isn't horrible enough to cost him this match.
Oliver vs Kasim Hazel (S1): Kasim's just fast enough to double, but draining still carries the day I think. Wouldn't if Kasim's MDef didn't suck.
Oliver vs Zhuzhen Liu (SH1): Yeah, Oliver mdur is way too high here. I suppose Zhuzhen might be able to status him out? Generally low respect for SH1 status says no, though.
Oliver vs Beecham (S3): Woops, there's that Silent Lake.
Oliver vs Rahal (S5): Failure.
Oliver vs Serra (FE7): Serra approximately halves magic damage, but Nosferatu still keeps up with Serra's failure damage against Oliver's also good Res. And then there's the possibility of Corona in a long fight. Don't think even Serra's evade is good enough here.
Oliver vs Black Wizard (FF1): -55% to status rates = BW fails forever.
Oliver vs Aeris Gainsbourgh (FF7): Seal Evil!

Okay yeah, underrated Oliver. I had assumed his durability was worse than it was; he's not really that different from Canas. Really good Light despite all the odds, and this might even be a misranking. Draining is just too badass even when everything doubles you, and spoiling mages is also good. Only lost to two people who spoil him... granted, he was lucky not to run into anyone who walls holy.

Oliver 7-2
Rinoa 6-3
Doll 4-5

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