Author Topic: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)  (Read 1467 times)

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« on: January 24, 2012, 03:45:31 PM »
While it was never ranked in the DL, it certainly would have been ranked by now. The PC cast fits neatly into two divisions, with half roughly in heavy and the other half in middle. This pool focuses on the heavies, which are Fang, Vanille, and Snow. How will they do?

Fang vs Flik (Suikos)
Fang vs Tony (MK)
Fang vs Cloud (FF7)
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)
Fang vs Garai (CC)
Fang vs Debonair (OB)
Fang vs Red (Saga)
Fang vs Suicune (PKMN)
Fang vs Auron (FFX)
Fang vs Fujin (FF8)
Fang vs Sync (TotA)

Vanille vs Flik (Suikos)
Vanille vs Tony (MK)
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2)
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5)
Vanille vs Garai (CC)
Vanille vs Debonair (OB)
Vanille vs Red (Saga)
Vanille vs Suicune (PKMN)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX)
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8)
Vanille vs Sync (TotA)

Snow vs Flik (Suikos)
Snow vs Tony (MK)
Snow vs Cloud (FF7)
Snow vs Rufus (VP2)
Snow vs Freyjadour (S5)
Snow vs Garai (CC)
Snow vs Debonair (OB)
Snow vs Red (Saga)
Snow vs Suicune (PKMN)
Snow vs Auron (FFX)
Snow vs Fujin (FF8)
Snow vs Sync (TotA)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #1 on: January 24, 2012, 04:22:19 PM »
Fang vs Flik (Suikos)- Too much status.
Fang vs Tony (MK)- She should just outslug.
Fang vs Cloud (FF7)- Too much status.
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)- Here too.
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)- Fang is very hard to beat when she goes first. She unloads on Freyjadour.
Fang vs Garai (CC)- Most every CC boss can be poisoned and slowed. Ouch. She can switch to sentinal as needed to slow down Garai's offense too.
Fang vs Debonair (OB)- Fang has serious problems damaging Debonair.  He's not only status resistant but really obnoxiously evasive to boot.
Fang vs Red (Saga)- Blocking Fang's status+having a lot of durability should do it.
Fang vs Auron (FFX)- Status.  Auron's just damn slow.
Fang vs Fujin (FF8)-2HKO, stops the worst of Fujin's status.
Fang vs Sync (TotA)- Massive stat down goes *here*, brutal commando chain goes -here-, Sync's mangled corpse goes ------>here.

Vanille vs Flik (Suikos)- Crippling status, go!
Vanille vs Tony (MK)- Medic should keep her afloat long enough.
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)- Status.
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2)
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5)- Right, he can halve status.
Vanille vs Garai (CC)- Vanille doesn't get slow and Garai can't be fogged/pained.
Vanille vs Debonair (OB)
Vanille vs Red (Saga)- If Fang can't go it, Vanille usually can't either.
Vanille vs Auron (FFX)
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8)- Vanille doesn't have Fang's offense to really blitz Fujin with, and she can't win a status war.
Vanille vs Sync (TotA)-Debuff, heal as needed, smash.

Snow vs Flik (Suikos)- Think he can blitz.
Snow vs Tony (MK)- Oh no! a 2HKO against Snow! *fail*
Snow vs Cloud (FF7)
Snow vs Rufus (VP2)
Snow vs Freyjadour (S5)- Think the threat of L4 gives Freyjadour enough of an edge here.
Snow vs Garai (CC)
Snow vs Debonair (OB)- Damage blitz. I don't think Snow can tank his way through it.
Snow vs Red (Saga)- ID at worst.
Snow vs Auron (FFX)- Magic break on opening move, power break afterward.
Snow vs Fujin (FF8)- Hi, physical beatdown.
Snow vs Sync (TotA)- Don't think even Sent snow can tank through Akashic Torment. EDIT: Oh. Wow. I forgot summoning. What the fuck, fail less at offense Sync.


Fang: 9-2
Vanille: 6-5
Snow: 4-7
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 03:25:42 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #2 on: January 24, 2012, 05:08:42 PM »
Fang doesn't get Poison/ga though don't know if it matters much here.
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #3 on: January 24, 2012, 05:21:54 PM »
Fang vs Flik (Suikos): Fang goes Sentinel to survive Flik's opening shot, then slams him with a bunch of status.
Fang vs Tony (MK): Tony's apparently vulnerable to Seal, which in this case I'd use as his check against Pain and Fog. That's that.
Fang vs Cloud (FF7): Deprotect for limit smashing, since Cloud probably immunes Pain!
Fang vs Rufus (VP2): Pain. Even if Rufus goes first she can survive a status blitz with Sentinel.
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5): Goes first. Pain/Fog/outslug/whatever.
Fang vs Garai (CC): Open as Sentinel, Slow/Deprotect, back to Sentinel, then smash to death on a double.
Fang vs Red (Saga): Red's just a bit faster and more damaging than Garai. It makes the difference.
Fang vs Suicune (PKMN): Suicune's great against Heavies who lack tricks, pretty bad aaginst those who have them. The FF13 PCs... have tricks.
Fang vs Auron (FFX): Auron can open with Power Break to try to just survive, but after Slow/Deshell even Ruin spam can probably deal with him. Magic Break helps but probably not enough.
Fang vs Fujin (FF8): Slow vulnerability means that her only real hope (confuse lock) is out.
Fang vs Sync (TotA): Debuffs Sync while he's still harmless, then smashes.

Fang 10-1. Well, there's a reason she gets Goldike hype, even if I don't agree with it. Extremely versatile.

Vanille vs Flik (Suikos): Probably just OHKOs. I suppose I could allow her initial Sentinel as well, but bleh, not something I'm happy with being a cast-wide thing there.
Vanille vs Tony (MK): Gets down Pain/Fog and heals if needed.
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7): Heal, chip, Deshell/smash.
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2): Status quickdraw and I have no idea who goes first.
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5): Only real question is how she can deal with two straight Crimson Skies. The answer is probably by landing Slow first and then healing. EDIT: No slow. Healing won't quiiite let Vanille survive two skies, so she needs status. And... Freyja can reduce Fog to turn 2, at which point he can finish with a physical.
Vanille vs Garai (CC): EDIT: no slow. Garai's faster.
Vanille vs Red (Saga): Slows and heals, with a death blocker? Nah, Red can heal-lock with DeadEnd, and he'll always have some sort of chance to land it.
Vanille vs Suicune (PKMN)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX): I think Esuna spoiling everything Auron does is pretty bad news for him. His only hope is Shooting Star, doubt that's happening.
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8): Don't think Vanille can learn turn 1 slow against the resistance, barely.
Vanille vs Sync (TotA): See Fang. EDIT: No slow, but she can still stall against pre-MA Sync all day and then summon past the scary stuff.

5-5. Fang minus, basically. The healing does help, but no Slow hurts a ton.

Snow has 125% HP, but while in Sentinel (which he mostly is), he's effectively (HP included) multiplying all damage by 0.45. He can use Mediguard which is a two-turn action as far as I'm concerned, but the extra turn it grants his enemies is instead multiplied by 0.16.

Snow vs Flik (Suikos): Flik's two L4s take out most of Snow's HP even if he stalls, and the L3s are good enough to finish things from there. Close though.
Snow vs Tony (MK): Spammable 2HKO tends to beat Snow. The break just adds insult to injury.
Snow vs Cloud (FF7): Chip Cloud a bit to weaken his offence, then stall against him until summon.
Snow vs Rufus (VP2): Rufus' raw spammable offence is too good, never mind the status.
Snow vs Freyjadour (S5): Hm, think Freyjadour's physical offence is just good enough to get around Mediguard, he's surprisingly solid at it.
Snow vs Garai (CC): Spammable 2HKO.
Snow vs Red (Saga): Spammable 2HKO. Well, runs out eventually, but not fast enough to lose since it's a good 2HKO.
Snow vs Suicune (PKMN): FRLG form wins this with Calm Mind, but Rain Dance doesn't give the punch needed when Suicune only has five shots of his good damage. I guess he could go for a flinch chain but I doubt that's working.
Snow vs Auron (FFX): Auron goes first and uses Power Break, so Snow needs like 6 attacks to kill him. Magic Break ensures that any such attacks trigger counters. Zombie Attack comes last to rule out any stalling.
Snow vs Fujin (FF8): Status.
Snow vs Sync (TotA): Snow might actually survive a Mystic Arte! Barely. If he were at full HP when it hits, which it won't be. EDIT: Stall until summon works, though. Haha Sync offence at full HP.

Snow is a bit better than I thought in that him being in Heavy actually isn't a joke. But still probably doesn't belong there, odd spoiler. 3-8
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 04:37:26 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Pyro

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1792
  • Mwahahaha
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2012, 12:02:47 AM »
Fang vs Flik (Suikos): Open Sent, then smash away.
Fang vs Tony (MK)
Fang vs Cloud (FF7)
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)
Fang vs Garai (CC): I just doubt her ability to slug out a slugfest boss. Also he inflicts his own Slow?
Fang vs Debonair (OB): Evasion and a good slugger.
Fang vs Red (Saga): Like Garai.
Fang vs Auron (FFX): More tricks.
Fang vs Fujin (FF8): Smashes her face in.
Fang vs Sync (TotA): Slow, Deprotect, smash.
8-3

Vanille vs Flik (Suikos): Higher Suikoscrub respect probably negates the OHKO, and he needs it.
Vanille vs Tony (MK): Pain or else debuff-heal?
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2): I'll tip the odds in her favor assuming her 'chain' is interrupted and gets off a few things first.
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5): Status resistance? Sure.
Vanille vs Garai (CC): Doubt Vanille's ability to handle a good slugging boss.
Vanille vs Debonair (OB)
Vanille vs Red (Saga)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX): Imperil Deshell.
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8): Deshell and smash.
Vanille vs Sync (TotA): Deshell -> Imperil -> Boom.
7-4

Snow vs Flik (Suikos): His damage is good enough to get around Snow's walling, I think. Or at least threaten to.
Snow vs Tony (MK): Tony had spammable 2HKO? Kay.
Snow vs Cloud (FF7): Better at walling for a limit courtesy the system he is in.
Snow vs Rufus (VP2): Spams damage, status, or his debuffs/buffs?
Snow vs Freyjadour (S5)
Snow vs Garai (CC)
Snow vs Debonair (OB)
Snow vs Red (Saga)
Snow vs Auron (FFX): I think he just wins with magic.
Snow vs Fujin (FF8): Status beats stalling.
Snow vs Sync (TotA): Chip-stall till a summon chain? I dunno.
3-8

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #5 on: January 27, 2012, 01:30:38 AM »
Fang vs Flik (Suikos)
Yeah, survive as Sent, Slow / Deprotect, crush.

Fang vs Cloud (FF7)
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)
Fang vs Garai (CC)
Sure I'll buy slow hype.

Fang vs Debonair (OB)
If super claims Debonair can evade the status blitz, I guess, since he does 2HKO.

Fang vs Auron (FFX)
Fang vs Fujin (FF8)
Yeah, don't think Pain does enough, smash->Ruin at worst.

Fang vs Sync (TotA)
And I have high Sync respect.

Yeah, Fang's a low Godlike to me.


Vanille vs Flik (Suikos)
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)
Opening Ravager magic probably kills Cloud's 2HKO, sure, even if it's not that inspiring before Deshell / Imperil.
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2)
Roll a d2.

Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5)
Vanille vs Garai (CC)
I don't recall many CC bosses being fast, and being slower means Deshell / Imperil hax lands.  Then again Garai might survive that anyway, so eh.  Probably Garai but meh.

Vanille vs Debonair (OB)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX)
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8)
Unless Fujin's status blitz is better than I thought.  I guess there's spam HP-1 vs. Vanille's healing, but that eventually runs into a double.

Vanille vs Sync (TotA)
Not sure I buy infinite stall hype against action-RPG types.  Generally let Medic spells resolve anyway and ignore Cut & Keep aside from a speed penalty, but not when it's the basis of a stall to a Summon strategy, something eventually goes wrong and their turns line up perfectly and Sync wins.

Snow vs Flik (Suikos)
Snow vs Cloud (FF7)
Snow vs Rufus (VP2)
Snow vs Freyjadour (S5)
The Prince's physical is okay, but good enough to smash through Mediguard?
Snow vs Garai (CC)
Snow vs Debonair (OB)
Arguably has a better shot at winning than Fang, but eh.

Snow vs Auron (FFX)
Zombie Attack for stalling, X Breaks to win the damage race.  (For all that this hoses Auron's turns.)

Snow vs Fujin (FF8)
Snow vs Sync (TotA)
I don't respect stalling to a Summon against a boss.

Yeah, Snow isn't hopeless in Heavy, but he's not great there either.  Kind of like Ziggy with more stalling options vs. PCs, I guess.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #6 on: January 27, 2012, 01:48:26 AM »
Why no stalling for summons against bosses, but yes against PCs? Giving them all Doom or something? I don't think I agree with giving that to all bosses FF13 PCs face, but not PCs. Seems arbitrary. And really weird that it could let him beat someone with far worse offence (Sync) than, say...

Quote
The Prince's physical is okay, but good enough to smash through Mediguard?

It's actually a bit better than okay, it's a borderline 2HKO. That beats Snow. 50% against Snow's 124% HP and 0.56 damage multiplier becomes 22.5%, Mediguard only restores 20%. It's even worse if, like me, you view Mediguard x5 as so slow that most duellers get in two turns for the opponent's one, so Freyjadour can throw in a second attack (granted, this one will be against Mediguard itself, so its damage is considerably smaller... still, every bit helps). It's a small enough edge that I guess Snow might get to summon first provided you don't see him doubleturned and view the TP gauge as partly filled to start with... but I'm not inclined to make any respect checks for summons like that given how stupid this strategy is in-game. FF13 PCs have to be able to draw out the battle infinitely for me to consider it.

Quote
I don't recall many CC bosses being fast

Most aren't. Garai is. Around 120%, I think, though I'd have to look up the number.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #7 on: January 27, 2012, 02:47:19 AM »
Because you can get Doom'd in boss battles but not regular fights, yes.

Re Prince: I do view Sentinel actions as slow, yes, it was more not entirely respecting a Prince 2HKO off his physical from memory.  If he's got that 2HKO, then yes, he wins.

Clear Tranquil

  • Garden of Innocence
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2331
  • Your dreams shatter and burn! Punishing! Blossom!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #8 on: January 28, 2012, 04:18:30 PM »
Only Fal'Cie, Cie'th and the Undying type enemies/bosses have the Doom flag as far as I am aware aside from the Doom counter in the Eidolon and final boss fights. The one exception is the Long Gui turtle. I used a stall out strategy on my first FFXIII play through vs the Proud Clods with Tireless Charge MED/COM/COM to slowly but surely whittle HPs down while I spammed Curaja and/or other healing every round as fast as possible just to keep my team on their toes  since my characters were quite low stats/underpowered/equipped from just rushing through everywhere as fast as possible on my first run for plots~

Pretty sure stall works for the other non Fal'Cie/etc boss types too, Enil/Enki I used Poison/stall, heal/damage stall probably works for Bulbasaur and so on.

**

Fang vs Tony (MK)
Fang vs Cloud (FF7)
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)
Fang vs Garai (CC)
Fang vs Suicune (PKMN)
Fang vs Auron (FFX)
Fang vs Fujin (FF8)


**

Vanille vs Tony (MK)
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2)
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5)
Vanille vs Garai (CC) - Poison/heal stall with the improved healing set ups? (Healing/Physician's Staff* + Iron/Mythril Bangle (Improved Cure I/II + High HP:Power Surge combo) Even Improved Cure II alone might just give her the edge especially since her first cast/heal comes out quite nicely/solid speed.
Vanille vs Suicune (PKMN)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX)
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8)
« Last Edit: January 28, 2012, 06:10:50 PM by Clear Tranquil »
"A Yeul that loved to sing. A Yeul who wished to travel. A Yeul that collected flowers.... Every one of them was unique"

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2012, 09:03:10 PM »
Quote
Vanille vs Garai (CC) - Poison/heal stall with the improved healing set ups? (Healing/Physician's Staff* + Iron/Mythril Bangle (Improved Cure I/II + High HP:Power Surge combo) Even Improved Cure II alone might just give her the edge especially since her first cast/heal comes out quite nicely/solid speed


Vanille won't have time to do anything but try to heal against a faster opponent.  Faster+can't be hit with nasty status will stomp Vanille most of the time in Heavy.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2012, 08:23:30 AM »
Let's not have Super's attempts to get me to vote go completely go waste!

Fang vs Flik (Suikos)- Hmm, yes, opening in Sentinel and immediately switching out was something I hadn't really thought it, but it does mean I've underrated Fang.
Fang vs Tony (MK)
Fang vs Cloud (FF7)
Fang vs Rufus (VP2)
Fang vs Freyjadour (S5)
Fang vs Garai (CC)- High CC boss respect...in a manner. Either after turn 1 they are fast enough that Slow isn't going help Fang get doubles (And yes, Fatigue is normally DL shitty, but putting Fang at 80% speed and making her get 4 bars instead of 5 is solid) or he'd be durable enough to take a doubled Deprotected attack string.
Fang vs Debonair (OB)
Fang vs Red (Saga)
Fang vs Suicune (PKMN)
Fang vs Auron (FFX)
Fang vs Fujin (FF8)
Fang vs Sync (TotA)- Unsure here. No clue on TotA bosses susceptibilities.

Vanille vs Flik (Suikos)- Barely OHKOs, but does.
Vanille vs Tony (MK)
Vanille vs Cloud (FF7)
Vanille vs Rufus (VP2)- Rufus isn't really that great on status right? Using Stone locks him into it, and that makes him have no damage.
Vanille vs Freyjadour (S5)
Vanille vs Garai (CC)
Vanille vs Debonair (OB)
Vanille vs Red (Saga)
Vanille vs Suicune (PKMN)
Vanille vs Auron (FFX)
Vanille vs Fujin (FF8)- Options work here
Vanille vs Sync (TotA)

Fang 8-3 (I do think she's quite excellent, but a Heavy. She's excellent at slugfesting, but not as great to me against excellent status, which this field is severely low on. But I could be wrong. This is why Proving Grounds is supposed to have people from two divisions!)
Vanille 5-6
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2012, 08:26:08 AM »
Rufus has various mixes of damage and status possible, see the stat topic. He can do 2HKO and 66% status. The really low damage comes with ~80% status (I forget the exact number) which isn't too useful usually since the status isn't fatal. Respect as you will.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2012, 08:41:38 AM »
Yeah, that barometer for him unfortunately comes in right below average turn 1 (Unless...did FF 13 PCs have a stat check of some sort there?).
...into the nightfall.

superaielman

  • "Mordero daghain pas duente cuebiyar/The fear of death holds not my heart!"
  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 9632
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds: Now starting FF13! (Heavy)
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2012, 04:12:31 PM »
For status? No. They can equip some status blockers for resistance but that won't help against Rufus; they can't resist stone.  Speed, not as far as I know.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
-------------------
<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...