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Author Topic: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical  (Read 3622 times)

DjinnAndTonic

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IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« on: May 18, 2012, 03:33:16 PM »
So the last time the DL did any kind of work on an IAQ, it was to basically see if it was possible for experienced RPG players like this group to really sit down and just -design-, free of restraints, an enjoyable and balanced RPG system/world. It was a fun activity that game me a lot of respect for game designers.

However, the project was purely theoretical.

So now that I've gotten more into hacking and game design in general, I wanted to see if it there could be another IAQ project that basically scales back the freedom and actually takes practical design limitations into effect. Since the DL is not a company, I'm not talking about budget/time constraints as much. More like "What kind of roadblocks do other fan game makers come across in the creation process?" Things like: "Do you already have sprites?" "How feasible is it to make more?" "What about music? Map design?"

The basic theory here is: "Limitation Breeds Creativity".

If we're working from a very basic engine, what modifications are -the most- important/unique that need to be prioritized to make a Fun Game? Instead of "without restraints", this time it's "How little can you modify to make something inherently interesting/enjoyable?".

My personal thoughts on the question is that we could start from the assumption of using one of the RPGmaker engines - they are fairly well-known, there are a lot of resources available for them, and they ARE fairly easy to modify the base code. It also means that even our members without extensive programming knowledge can join the discussion/brainstorming process. The only thing I worry about is that it might alienate the members who -are- knowledgeable about programming? Someone chime in here.

For those not intimately familiar with it, the RPGmaker engines run on the most simple of Dragon Quest-like RPG battle systems. The question is: Can you think of some modifications to this formula that can change it from a boring DQ game to something more like Phantasy Star IV or Wizard of Oz?

The engine is basically:
4 active Party members, 1-3 or 4 enemies (depending on the version of RPGmaker)
The four basic commands are: Fight, Skill, Run, Item
Skills are basically only learned at level-up or through story events (this leaves some room for interesting builds, but makes things like a Limit Break somewhat difficult to implement)
Skills can be made to perform only a very small numbers of tasks within the architecture of the battle system: Damage (tagged Magical/Phys and with various elements), Healing, and Status
Skills can also activate Common Events (meaning made to perform interesting tasks, but requires programming new functions)
Basic Stats are ATK, DEF, MATK, MDEF, HIT, EVA (and depending on version, LUCK and a few others IIRC)
Equipment offer only the most standard of Stat increases/decreases, and Element/Status resistances
Equipment, too, can be used to activate Common Events
Status Effects are Poison-like, Silence-like, and StatBuff/Debuff-like (sometimes others are available, depending on version, but not many)
Status Effects can be programmed to perform many tasks, and activate Common Events

So... yes. There are a -lot- of Limitations just in the battle system. But it -can- be modified somewhat (or completely revamped if you're an expert programmer, but let's assume not for the sake of the exercise). What are the biggest things to add/modify to make a fun battle system?

I have a  ton of ideas, but I'm wondering what the DL thinks of the exercise?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2012, 10:38:43 PM »
To be honest, many of the limitations of RPG Maker's engine can be overcome with minimal effort; I'm pretty sure I had created several new stats and completely rewrote the damage algorithms to something less lame and Dragon Quest-y within days of first downloading the software.

Overcoming some other limitations (such as created an SRPG grid system) are much more difficult. The difficulty really varies.

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Talaysen

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #2 on: May 18, 2012, 10:44:41 PM »
I was gonna say, if all those limitations were THAT hard to overcome, I wouldn't see why people would even use the thing.

TranceHime

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2012, 11:06:42 AM »
The only thing stopping more people from creating their own battle engines as opposed to using whatever is already out there for use or modification is people's laziness. Or possibly unwillingness to learn. One of the two, or possibly both.

Overcoming some other limitations (such as created an SRPG grid system) are much more difficult. The difficulty really varies.

For example, an SRPG grid system. Yeah, it'd be difficult. Except for the fact that it's already been done, to some extent. At least, the Japanese have created RGSS/RGSS2 scripts for that. Even so, that delves into programming territory and I feel it'd only be trivial for those who were already proficient with it in the first place, as RGSS/RGSS2/RGSS3 syntax is not really that bad and they're not obnoxious to learn, aside from having to basically remember the fundamentals.

Pretty much, I foresee the only major limits with utilizing RM software (and I'm pretty sure Yanfly has already put out an extensive RMVXA bundle of scripts with his new engine, and I know some others have put out some really neat stuff) all lie at the really low level stuff, stuff that scripting and eventing just can't handle. Anyway, that's just my 2 cents from someone who's actively used RMVX for development.
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074

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2012, 02:50:29 AM »
As someone who's used RMVX and RMVXA, the systems are actually easy enough to modify for certain things.  With scripts from Yanfly and Kread-EX (both of which have -generous- terms of use), the options available are greatly expanded from what one would consider from a normal RM game.  In fact, what I've been able to either make or theorize with both makers, scripts included, are many.

If we were just trying to use the maker flat out, without any customization aside from perhaps the core Yanfly Battle Engine to clean things up (such as displaying damage numbers onscreen rather than forcing you to read a text box), Ace outdoes VX in so many ways it's not funny.

As for what VX Ace offers in regards to features here, vanilla only:

*4-person party, free switching to/from reserve outside of combat.
*Front-view, turn-based battle system (no ATB or CTB).
*Nine base stats; HP, MP, TP(can be treated as anything between FF Limit and WA FP) one that governs turn order, one that affects status hitrates, and four that one can do whatever they want with.  These nine default to HP, MP, TP, ATK, DEF, MAT, MDF, AGI(speed) and LUK(status hitrates), but those are simply labels that one can manipulate if so desired.
*Customizable damage equations on a per-skill basis.  Can factor any of the hard stats, one or more variables, and/or level, among other things.
*A myriad of -other- stats one can alter: Accuracy, Evade, Critical Rate, Counter Rate(which is in actuality an Evade-and-Counter rate), likelihood to be targeted, magic evade rate, magic cost rate, regeneration/degeneration of stats, Magic Reflect rate, Cover rate, and more.
*Multihit attacks are now possible!  (if...very inelegantly implemented.  YEM for RMVX is still the best way to do those and make them pretty if you know how)
*It's now possible to make bosses multiact.
*Equipment and status options are remarkably increased through the trait system.
*A bunch of cosmetic things that don't do much functional but add little details of prettiness
*Better RTP music than VX.
*Built-in spritemaker (for the love of god do not use the facemaker on that.  ESPECIALLY NOT ON RANDOM)
*Not Vanilla Tankentai.

So yeah, even if we're working in the framework of vanilla, VX Ace has a ton of options.  Not getting into the independent scripts; Yanfly has made an interesting setup for a class system script, while Kread-EX has implemented such things as an alchemy system, consumable ammunition, BoF4-style magic combination, SaGa-style sparking, and more.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2012, 03:51:55 AM by Namagomi »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2012, 02:33:59 AM »
Well, generally speaking, at least for moi, you need to look at what boundaries you can push to make combat more engaging (that is to say, more than spam X). This would be a decent time to toss a line to Nama for inspiration here, actually. What can you do to add strategy and thought into the battle.

AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2012, 11:43:17 PM »
You know, somehow I totally missed a large swath of the point here.

Yeah. Sure. Interested.

074

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2012, 12:55:18 PM »
Also interested, assuming this is a "create an IAQ/game framework using a RPG Maker engine as a base" matter.
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2012, 03:46:57 PM »
Well, personally, I've always liked the idea of how Nyarlie's Dungeon works. You choose a team of 4 or 5  where each team member has a 'value'. This creates some necessary tiering between characters, but it still makes lower-tier characters incredibly useful.

I can't think of a story element that would support this mechanic well, outside of hiring soldiers/mercenaries. Maybe Andy has an idea?

AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2012, 05:47:18 PM »
Generally speaking, hiring/upkeep/tax-esque set-up would be the most obvious way to do it. If you wanted you could do it summoner style and have a limitation on the value of what the caster could call forth at a time as well.

074

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2012, 07:14:50 PM »
Well, personally, I've always liked the idea of how Nyarlie's Dungeon works. You choose a team of 4 or 5  where each team member has a 'value'. This creates some necessary tiering between characters, but it still makes lower-tier characters incredibly useful.

Mechanically, the process of team selection is simple enough there.  Event variables handle it easily, to be honest.

What -will- be hard would be properly ranking the characters without thorough testing and analysis to begin with; don't forget that the Nyarlie's Dungeon rankings are largely an eyeballing of character capabilities in a team setting, and while some *coughRikacough* easily earn their place, others will regularly shift around in value as runs are performed and characters re-evaluated.

Storywise--yeah.  Hire/upkeep is the main usable in-story excuse.  Other things could be fiddled with, but barring leaving a gaping hole in the fourth wall the size of the destruction left behind by a crowd of pissed-off Godlike girls bashing through doorways while they chase Edge for being a pervert, there's not too many options if you want to go the tiering route.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 07:22:38 PM by Namagomi »
<+Nama-EmblemOfFire> ...Have the GhebFE guy and the ostian princess guy collaborate.
 <@Elecman> Seems reasonable.

AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2012, 09:15:21 PM »
Honestly, I think for general purposes, a "summoner cap" using "mana" or something to maintain/empower/etc your allies is the best way to do it storywise.

The problem with hire/upkeep is that it breaks from logic at times, especially life or death situations. It also has other problems (stockpiling, etc, if money is a real resource), as well as the problem that upkeep is a little weirder to track/maintain/punish for.

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2012, 10:23:44 PM »
Hmm... a "summoner" cap, huh? I like it.

So could we build a game around a summoner-type character/setting?

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2012, 11:02:23 PM »
Brigandine pretty much did just this, though with summoned monsters of course. Personally I think something involving human characters a la VP einherjar is more interesting, but right now I don't have any better suggestions than "blatantly rip off Valkyrie Profile".

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AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2012, 11:27:01 PM »
Functionally, I'd do something like a world where magical powers are incredibly rare and those who posses and can naturally access them are far and few between. These people are born to be kings.

However, the most powerful of their abilities is that they can infuse others with their own energy, unlocking their abilities and allowing them to fight with unrivaled strength. Thus it is that these casters assemble retinues of powerful servants whom they imbue with their powers and then send out do battle for them.

Unfortunately, the inborn potential of many, while immense, is locked deep within them and can only be unlocked with an immense expenditure of power, blah, blah, etc, etc, hence justifying the sliding scale. Unlocking these powers takes minimal effort, although there is a limit to how thin a mage can stretch themselves. Thus, any mage without a cohort is at a huge disadvantage, as they themselves always maintain about the same power level, even with their max cohorts.

Lot of different ways you can go with that generalized set-up. Story of a heroic underdog, story of a fallen kingdom, story of a tyrant overthrown, story of selfish dude just dicking around, story of love, story of friendship, story of classism, etc, etc, etc. It generally lends itself towards SRPG style in concept which is annoying, but it is fairly easy to avert by making them small scale conflicts since even the most powerful mages can only infuse a handful of individuals at a time.

A summoner style game trends a little bit more towards generics, and that's back into SRPG territory. Also, generics are lame.

Generally speaking, the biggest challenge would be characters. As we found during the last project (which, even more importantly, was purely theoretical), large casts are a mothereffer to handle. Moreso if you want it to be a story game. Learning from the last project, I'd say its doable and we could manage a pretty good cast size (let'ss say... what? 1 Summoner/Master + 3 cohorts max to the party, Summoner being locked... hm, 21-24 characters spread through a few tiers (4-6) sounds like a decent number. Create a set of core characters (Summoner + 4-5) who the story really revolves around while the others are more side oriented and it... might manageable?

On second thought. The other big risk is a problem with really utilizing the concept. To actually do it, I think you need split part sections, which throws plotty stuff into weird places unless you maybe have an allied mage or two? You might also want to step the mage back into a non-combat role (i.e. not present on the field and have his influence represented by buffs available to the characters or something?)

I'm totally rambling now.

Story-wise, it isn't too hard a concept to go up to bat for. Gameplay-wise I struggle a bit, however, to find too much benefit outside of a full SRPG style set-up. I guess the question is how do you really justify the stratification of characters like this in a meaningful way? I mean, you can always do it just because or because you like it stylistically (s'cool to do things you like) but... well. To a degree, I guess the issue is how much do you gain?

Nyarlie's actually tends to run towards the logical route, which is maxing the PC count (or running one short to maximize the number of high tier characters you get), right? I guess maybe you could categorize it up a different way if you want the gameplay to focus around weird synergies...

Ah. That's it! Yus. Better story justification! These inborn powers are all tied to one of the elements. Mages possess souls attuned to all however many elements, so they can attune to the person to let out all their power. However, they can only attune to one person of particular element, zodiac sign, whatever at a time normally. Thus you stratify your characters across thematic concepts rather than raw power or something, or you could do it that way and just tier the elements, metal> fire > earth > water > air > wood and make the concept a little less meta.

If we were aiming for a shorter game, you could actually like perma limit such things and remove choices throughout the game (you assemble a permanent party over the course of the game, culling useless choices/getting them killed/etc) and have plots vary along those lines or just do Suikoden style ALL OF THE DUDES kind of play.

Actually, going way back? I like the idea of the summoner not being present on the front line most of the time. Thematically, that raises up a lot more fun questions about morality, friendship, intimacy, etc. Are these people tools and slaves, or are they people you care about? Maybe give attuning this whole mental connection thing and explore what it is like sending those people out to die.

Even doing away with the point system (which we don't need to do, just saying) the concept has merit as a story to be told.

Hrm. You could also go another way and maybe use the characters as avatars as well. You don't just send them to battle, you unlock some totemic dealy within your soul and transform them into beasts/monsters before sending them out. Totally do a darker/serious exploration of the core pokemon concept, as well as looking at the dehumanization (literally) of your comrades as your exploit them and use them in battle. It is something to unlock powers in them and have them fight, it is another to release that horrific dragon in their soul and have them eat people.

I apologize if none of this made sense. I did this in like, 10 edits because new thoughts kept occurring.

Son of a bitch. This is like my 30th edit. Actually, more and more I like the idea of more full control of unlocking terrible things from inside people's soul because this totally gives opportunity to start the main off as a completely terrible human being and evolve him along that line. Watch it finally start to effect him as he realizes that, yes, these changes over time have horrible effects on people.

Oh man, this totally lends to some awesome potential for branching paths and legitimate moral choices.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2012, 11:55:25 PM by AndrewRogue »

DjinnAndTonic

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2012, 04:52:01 PM »
Okay, so I like the idea of the main character being a dick (and possibly a king or a even a demon-king to justify his powers) at the start of the game, and then evolving as time goes on.

However, I am aiming towards a short game. Again, I'm trying to keep limitations in mind.

So... instead of thinking in terms of an 80-hour epic... try a 14-hour dungeon-crawler (or even boss-rush, screw randoms unless we can implement some sort of Cthulhu Saves the World-style random-countdown).

The idea of this IAQ is to work within limitations. Limitation breeds Creativity. So there's some wiggle room on "14 hours", but try using that perspective to come up with the most creative plotline you can?

Maybe even fewer of the PCs need large amounts of screen time? Maybe they can just have really creative in-base dialogues and then very little to do with the main plot? (After all, how much input do soldiers get when the demon-king is doing all the important story stuff?)


Dark Holy Elf

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2012, 05:26:51 PM »
Quote
Cthulhu Saves the World-style random-countdown

This is extremely easy to implement if it's something you want.

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AndrewRogue

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Re: IAQ Experiment: Theoretical and Practical
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2012, 02:12:59 AM »
Okay, so I like the idea of the main character being a dick (and possibly a king or a even a demon-king to justify his powers) at the start of the game, and then evolving as time goes on.

However, I am aiming towards a short game. Again, I'm trying to keep limitations in mind.

So... instead of thinking in terms of an 80-hour epic... try a 14-hour dungeon-crawler (or even boss-rush, screw randoms unless we can implement some sort of Cthulhu Saves the World-style random-countdown).

The idea of this IAQ is to work within limitations. Limitation breeds Creativity. So there's some wiggle room on "14 hours", but try using that perspective to come up with the most creative plotline you can?

Maybe even fewer of the PCs need large amounts of screen time? Maybe they can just have really creative in-base dialogues and then very little to do with the main plot? (After all, how much input do soldiers get when the demon-king is doing all the important story stuff?)

Concepts should be developed side by side, honestly. This was kind of a flaw of the Untitled IAQ. We took it too step by step, resulting in disconnects along the way.

Generally speaking, with that rough core concept (Summoner/Enhancer Vaguely Dickish/Evil Guy Learns Life Lesson) there's a lot that can be done. But it depends a lot on how we want gameflow to go as well. Do we want a purely linear experience? Branching? Randoms? How big do we want the stakes? World saving huge? City conquering? Personal? Are we  more interested in this being a dungeon crawler/boss rush game and are looking for an excuse plot with amusing dialogue?

If we want to do this, let's develop the core concepts hand-in-hand with each other. The more that is informed by what we want, the stronger the experience is. The core idea is vague enough (and you... like it, I guess?) that there's a lot of wiggle room to adjust for concepts.
« Last Edit: May 27, 2012, 02:15:28 AM by AndrewRogue »