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Author Topic: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)  (Read 1507 times)

superaielman

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Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« on: August 09, 2012, 03:01:47 AM »
Results from last time:Justin: 24-16 (60%)
Adachi: 11-13 (46%)
Hope: 7-22 (32%)
Mog: 10-24 (29%)

Jowy: 24-18 (57%)
Fang: 13-10 (56%)
Chaz: 19-22 (46%)
Vanille: 9-21 (32%)

Going for a clean start this time, using three divisions. Format: I'm taking three lower ranked fighters from the division above the fighter, and nine from their division.  IE: I'm using three low godlikes and nine heavies for this pool.

Ceodore- Cecil and Rosa's son has awakening, decent healing, and a host of support spells.
Estelle- Trails drew okay in Cmdr's topic, figure it's worth a spin here.
FF1 Knight- Drawing benchmark. \



Ceodore (TAY) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Ceodore vs Fei (XG)
Ceodore vs Lamington (Disgaea)
Ceodore vs  Feena (G1)
Ceodore vs Ursula (BoF4)
Ceodore vs Sabin (FF6)
Ceodore vs Lang (LoL2)
Ceodore vs Sofia (DQ4)
Ceodore vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)
Ceodore vs Kika (S4)
Ceodore vs Cthulhu (CSTW)
Ceodore vs Edna (SH3)

Estelle (Trails) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Estelle vs Fei (XG)
Estelle vs Lamington (Disgaea)
Estelle vs  Feena (G1)
Estelle vs Ursula (BoF4)
Estelle vs Sabin (FF6)
Estelle vs Lang (LoL2)
Estelle vs Sofia (DQ4)
Estelle vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)
Estelle vs Kika (S4)
Estelle vs Cthulhu (CSTW)
Estelle vs Edna (SH3)

Knight  (FF1) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Knight vs Fei (XG)
Knight vs Lamington (Disgaea)
Knight vs  Feena (G1)
Knight vs Ursula (BoF4)
Knight vs Sabin (FF6)
Knight vs Lang (LoL2)
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4)
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)
Knight vs Kika (S4)
Knight vs Cthulhu (CSTW)
Knight vs Edna (SH3)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Nephrite

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #1 on: August 09, 2012, 03:11:56 AM »
Estelle (Trails) vs Zeromus (FF4) - Not sure Zeromus can do much to threaten Estelle.
Estelle vs Fei (XG) -
Estelle vs Lamington (Disgaea)
Estelle vs  Feena (G1) - Hard Break :((((((
Estelle vs Ursula (BoF4) - Think Estelle can win this.
Estelle vs Sabin (FF6)
Estelle vs Lang (LoL2)
Estelle vs Sofia (DQ4) - Uh... think Estelle, but I don't remember everything Solo/fia could do.
Estelle vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC) - REGEN HYPE
Estelle vs Kika (S4) - No vote
Estelle vs Cthulhu (CSTW) - No Vote
Estelle vs Edna (SH3) - Healing?
« Last Edit: August 17, 2012, 07:22:04 PM by Nephrite »

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2012, 03:56:03 AM »
Ceodore (TAY) vs Zeromus (FF4)- Black Hole tips it offhand.
Ceodore vs Fei (XG)- Image owns Fei pretty badly.
Ceodore vs Lamington (Disgaea)- Ceodore's resources are getting pressed hard here. Lamington can get around blink to an extent with his bad magic and counters. On top of that, Ceo can't full heal without Awakening- which has a definite time limit. EDIT: Oh, duh. He can resist ice. 
Ceodore vs  Feena (G1)- Resisting thunder makes Feena unhappy.
Ceodore vs Ursula (BoF4)- Reflect, outslug.
Ceodore vs Sabin (FF6)- Bum Rush ignores all of Ceo's tricks. 
Ceodore vs Lang (LoL2)- Ceo can bust past limits well enough.
Ceodore vs Sofia (DQ4)- Awakening is out due to Ironize. Think Sofia manages to outslug well enough.
Ceodore vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)- Think so. He resists fire and has a large speed advantage.
Ceodore vs Kika (S4)- Should outlast.
Ceodore vs Edna (SH3)- Haste lets him blitz before running out of MP from her MP drain skill.

Knight  (FF1) vsZeromus (FF4)- Magic damage.
Knight vs Fei (XG)- Fei may drop Knight to a 3HKO, and I don't think it matters. Killing Knight with physicals is generally a bitch.
Knight vs Lamington (Disgaea)- See Fei. Elemental physical is even worse.
Knight vs  Feena (G1)- Thunder resistance.
Knight vs Ursula (BoF4)- ID blocker.
Knight vs Sabin (FF6)- 2HKO, avoids 2HKO.
Knight vs Lang (LoL2)- MA=dead Knight.
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4)- Outheals eventually.
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)- Outheals eventually.
Knight vs Kika (S4)- 2HKOs, not 2HKOed back.
Knight vs Edna (SH3)- Black hole isn't cutting it.

Ceodore: 8-3
Knight: 7-4
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SnowFire

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2012, 05:19:58 AM »
Estelle (Trails) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Zeromus is ~2 PCHP or so IIRC?  Estelle needs to heal too aggressively here even assuming she can Barrage + Blue Impact past Flare range.  Sure she can block poison, but when Zeromus has a double turn incoming, she needs to be at full health to survive 2x Virus, so a 3:2 means Estelle can never stick in damage, and something close to a 3:2 means Estelle can only spend the rare situations where she trades single turns twice in a row to do some damage.  5x Blue Impacts are 100 EP right there, her best healing (needed after double-turns) costs 40 EP, and she has 290 EP max, so yeah no.  (If Zeromus has only 1.5 PCHP she's probably fine, though!)
Estelle vs Fei (XG) - lulz Fei 3HKOs Estelle and barely misses the 2HKO.  Thought he had an easy win but no, that's too much time.
Estelle vs Feena (G1) - Time Gate.  (Hard Break, aside from being terrible, shouldn't matter since Estelle is significantly slower and charge times are presumably baked in to the entire cast so Feena isn't that much slower when TGing, and once it resolves it's way too late.)
Estelle vs Sabin (FF6) - 2HKOs first. - EDIT: Nah, Estelle just psuedo-OHKOs.
Estelle vs Sofia (DQ4) - Block Sleep, win?  Unsure though, depends on how much high DQ4 defense hype is worth.  Barrage is pretty good for basically ignoring high defense in-game though so think Estelle still psuedo-2HKOs.  EDIT: Elemental resistance probably tips this to Sofia.
Estelle vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC) - I generally let Alex halve all elements, and Trails doesn't have a separate ice vs. water distinction, so I'd let ice halving get Estelle's magic anyway.  That leaves Estelle with bo staff beatdown into Alex's good HP and good defense.  Barrage is still scary as usual but with it being so slow to chip Alex into range he can easily do something like Vigor -> Vigor -> Blue Dragon Heal -> unleash mega Sword Dances off better speed until Estelle runs out of healing or he doubles.  EDIT: Also regen, see Jo'ou.
Estelle vs Cthulhu (CSTW) - Insanity signs Cthulhu's own death warrant to Barrage, so he just spams a 2HKO with Dark Strike off better speed.  While I eventually see Estelle powering up and getting into OHKO range, I think Cthulhu's double turn happens sooner.
Estelle vs Edna (SH3) - Depends entirely on how much HP Edna has.  (And she resists Water, hah.)  Don't see a damage average in the stat topic...  anyway Edna threatens physical -> D-combo to finish Estelle, so Estelle probably wants to psuedo-2HKO to win this one without worrying about healing a bunch. EDIT - So apparently Edna has a super-fast 2nd turn, so Estelle needs to OHKO or GTFO to physical -> D-Combo.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2012, 08:24:20 PM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2012, 05:36:03 AM »
Shadow Hearts damage averages aren't very useful for gauging their HP due to the presence of (Arc) Rage/Surge, doubles, and combos. The raw undoubled, uncomboed, unboosted damage average is probably around 80 at that point, though.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2012, 01:25:59 PM »
I'll have to note Alex is like 115% PC HP in raw durability before regen - the Lunar durability curve where it pertains defenses is quite tight and Alex HP isn't even game-best. He's solid, but not really a -tank-, and he's also -below average speed-. >_> If he ever has to heal, he's a lot more likely to run out of resources than his opponent. But regen sounds like the kind of thing that would screw up chipping/heal-locking fairly well.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2012, 01:33:15 PM »
Snowfire: For what it's worth Sofia reduces ice and blizzard damage (By 33% and -55 on spell damage respectively). Donno if you would consider Trails water element to fall under that.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

SnowFire

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2012, 05:13:13 PM »
Jo'ou: Well Estelle's staff is like .12 PCHP, so even being moderately above average is tanky enough for Alex.  Barrage is .74 PCHP.  So that means it takes ~3 physicals -> threaten physical + Barrage...  ignoring Alex's defense and regen, which just plain screws Estelle over.

Also Alex is above average speed vs. Dragon Cane Mia, below average vs. Wind Cane Mia, and exactly average vs. 50/50 split Mia.  I think split Mia is the fairest, so Alex is average speed to me.  (And Estelle is probably slower than even Alex vs. full Wind Cane Mia I suspect.)

super: Yeah, I'd let Ice resistance catch Water unless there's a separation in-game a la FFX, vote changed.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2012, 05:34:48 PM »
Snowfire: that's entirely fair! For all that I take Mia with Wind Cane because of how strongly speed plays into her game (and heck, I used the Wind Cane in-game a goddamn lot, particularly once I got Flameria. 220 may be 4HKO damage in the DL, but it's great crowd control against randoms, especially when running off good speed!). Also, Trails Water from what I've seen (I PLAYED THE FIRST HOUR OF THE GAME WHOAMG) could be very reasonably seen as Water/Ice and the resistance there is reasonable. Also, yes, 12% PC HP staff thwacks mean that regen makes the threat of healing with free resources impossible. >_>
« Last Edit: August 09, 2012, 05:37:09 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 08:02:01 PM »
Ceodore (TAY) vs Zeromus (FF4): Yeah, I think Zeromus is good enough to handle this style of fight.
Ceodore vs Fei (XG): Image is pretty terrible against Deathblows actually; the weak opening hits kill it off. Anyway, Fei heallocks.
Ceodore vs Lamington (Disgaea): Image is a pretty good lockdown here. Lamington has magic but it's seriously not very good. Ceodore does have to heal and recast Image moderately often but kneejerk is he can handle it.
Ceodore vs Feena (G1): Yeah, lightning resistance is most likely legal... lots of ways to get it.
Ceodore vs Ursula (BoF4): Haste then Reflect, with one shot of Awakening to pull him through? Yeah, sounds right.
Ceodore vs Sabin (FF6): Bum Rush isn't a good enough 2HKO to really overwhelm Ceodore; he only rarely has to heal twice per Sabin turn and doubles pretty often with Haste, so yeah.
Ceodore vs Lang (LoL2): Ceodore breaks past limits with what exactly? Lang has that 10% regen to make things worse. He also does loads of Image-piercing damage to keep Ceodore on the defensive while adding various ~15% status.
Ceodore vs Sofia (DQ4): Not sure what I think of Ceodore immuning sleep, and I imagine the fight hinges on that? Abstain.
Ceodore vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC): 2 Vigour Sword Dance is a shutdown like Yamikei, but it does run out of MP eventually. But... does a "Ceodore fails to double" happen first? Likely, he's notably below average while spamming Curaga.
Ceodore vs Kika (S4): Kika doesn't quite manage the shutdown heallock, but Ceodore does have to heal three times for every two times she gets it off and she's fast.
Ceodore vs Cthulhu (CSTW): Cthulhu goes first, drives Ceodore insane. He now OHKOs most likely, and has Insane Death active. Ceodore needs to haste and image but Cthulhu is too fast for him to get both off in time. Ceodore really wishes Haste didn't have that charge time for fights like this. Though I suspect he might lose this one anyway.
Ceodore vs Edna (SH3): Ceodore goes first and uses Haste, Edna Mental Breaks him twice to get that to stick. Edna doesn't quite heal-lock him due to ice resistance, so Ceo's best bet is to heal every other turn while getting in attacks. Of course, Mental Break means he can't do this for very long. I think he can just pull it off, though... it helps that he has that one final Awakening once he runs out of MP.

Estelle (Trails) vs Zeromus (FF4): The turns probably come too quickly. Zeromus 3HKOs and probably isn't too far from a 3-2.
Estelle vs Fei (XG): I suppose you could talk me out of allowing Yamikei. Not today, though. Fei 2HKOs and can survive one Estelle turn.
Estelle vs Lamington (Disgaea): Also heal locks.
Estelle vs Feena (G1): Time Gate does its thing.
Estelle vs Ursula (BoF4): One round win.
Estelle vs Sabin (FF6): One round win.
Estelle vs Lang (LoL2): Estelle has serious trouble chipping Lang down (that regen, and he can resist ice) so her only hope is 200 CP... and yeah, that doesn't OHKO thanks to Lang HP. Never mind he can probably mess with her before then (speed, status).
Estelle vs Sofia (DQ4): Deeper resources.
Estelle vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC): Another annoying tanky regen fighter.
Estelle vs Kika (S4): Estelle barely misses the OHKO.
Estelle vs Cthulhu (CSTW): See Snowfire, add respect for Cthulhu's speed so that double happens reasonably quickly.
Estelle vs Edna (SH3): 2HKOs easily enough.

Knight (FF1) vs Zeromus (FF4): Zeromus' damage to full-HP knight is a wonderful joke, like a 12HKO or something with Bio so he goes for Big Bang instead, low 3HKO every other turn. Once below half HP he gets a 4HKO every turn. Knight meanwhile just 4HKOs. I think Zeromus still has this, but barely. If Knight could somehow hold his damage to avoid putting Zeromus below half HP after the second strike he'd win easily. He also wins if Zeromus has less than a 4-3 but I doubt that.
Knight vs Fei (XG): Fei puts up Counter Force, then starts pounding with Yamikei. Knight has a 3HKO on him but misses half the time. Fei can keep up with that with INNER HEALING. He's a better physical spoiler in Heavy than I figured.
Knight vs Lamington (Disgaea): Resisting ice and physicals is grand, but Lamington's still very tanky and Armageddon probably manages a 5HKO (could be argued into 6, but counters help so meh).
Knight vs  Feena (G1): Thunder resistance.
Knight vs Ursula (BoF4): Ursula generally has issues in Heavy. I guess she can try for some status nonsense here but eh.
Knight vs Sabin (FF6): 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Knight vs Lang (LoL2): Someone else who can't avoid a Mystic Art.
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4): Can avoid the 2HKO and hence slowly outslug.
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC): Regen, healing, Sword Dance eventually brings Knight down. I -think- Alex has the resources for this anyway.
Knight vs Kika (S4): Kika... manages a 5HKO? That's impressive. Knight 2HKOs her, but Kika does have good evade. Not good enough to dodge 3 out of 4, though.
Knight vs Cthulhu (CSTW): At base, Cthulhu does 18% while Knight does 32%. Cthulhu doesn't like those numbers, so he uses Dark Strike, doing 7% and making his own subsequent damage 40% while Knight does 38%. Hm... still can't win with those numbers outright. But Drain Strike fully heals so he can buy himself time.
Knight vs Edna (SH3): Edna 4HKOs with Black Hole and has some laughably worthless doubles. Knight probably 3HKOs. I don't think Edna gets her fourth turn before Knight gets his third, though it is close.

Ceodore 5-6
Knight 5-6
Estelle 2-10 (has very little answer to durable Heavies who can heal-lock her, which is quite a lot of 'em)

Zeromus, Fei, Lang, Alex, Cthulhu: 3-0
Sofia: 2-0
Lamington, Kika: 2-1
Feena, Edna: 1-2
Ursula, Sabin: 0-3
« Last Edit: August 12, 2012, 01:36:27 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #10 on: August 12, 2012, 07:36:51 PM »
Mostly copying DHE for Knight because lazy.

Knight  (FF1) vs Zeromus (FF4)
Knight vs Fei (XG) - Despite RUSE for Knight and no Yamikei for Fei, I don't think it actually matters.  Inclined to let Kokei generally hit through a RUSE setup despite Grahf-evades-deathblows hype, then see DHE except for a slower Fei win.
Knight vs  Feena (G1) - The fight isn't totally over after Knight survives TG since Feena is faster and has healing, but don't think she has enough.
Knight vs Sabin (FF6)
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4)
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC)
Knight vs Cthulhu (CSTW) - I allow RUSE for Knight, so prepare the Magethulu Dark Blast hype (no).
Knight vs Edna (SH3)

Estelle: 2-6
Knight: 4-4

Random Consonant

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #11 on: August 12, 2012, 09:11:24 PM »
Knight (FF1) vs Zeromus (FF4) - Well, if people think he beats NES Knight he probably beats DoS Knight, which is what I go by.
Knight vs Fei (XG) - Blink doesn't likely doesn't matter here, no.
Knight vs  Feena (G1) - Resists Lightning
Knight vs Ursula (BoF4) - Likely.
Knight vs Sabin (FF6) - I doubt DoS Knight 2HKOs Edit: nevermind, he actually does.
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4) - uh... depends on how good DQ4 sleep is
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC) - Despite allowing Blink, sure.  Unlesss FF1 evade is better than failstat that doesn't have the decency to catch anything other than basic physicals.
Knight vs Cthulhu (CSTW) - Again, assuming FF1 evade is failstat
« Last Edit: August 13, 2012, 10:18:40 PM by Random Consonant »

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #12 on: August 13, 2012, 09:55:22 PM »
Quote
Knight vs Sabin (FF6) - I doubt DoS Knight 2HKOs

He doesn't 2HKO average, but Sabin is below enough average to make a 2HKO easy enough.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #13 on: August 13, 2012, 10:18:09 PM »
So he is.  And Bum Rush being ITD makes DoS Knight's low MDef not matter since he survives two on raw HP.  Yep, that's a vote change.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2012, 02:50:22 PM »
Sabin durability is great. I still can't get over my sheer glee when I realized he has pdur along the lines of Strawmantastic.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #15 on: August 14, 2012, 08:06:38 PM »
Knight  (FF1) vs Zeromus (FF4) - NEB's analysis on the spot, I want to say, so Knight winning depends on whether Zeromus eats a 4HKO or a 3HKO. He's at the 1.5x PC HP hold to me, as a kneejerk. End result = yeah.
Knight vs Fei (XG) - Counter Stance hype is the best.
Knight vs  Feena (G1) - Feena's resources for stalling post-Time Gate are a joke, and ain't much better -before-. Knight just outmaneuvers.
Knight vs Ursula (BoF4) - Ursula really needed healing for the status stalling to work.
Knight vs Sabin (FF6) - See above about how cool Sabin durability is.
Knight vs Lang (LoL2) - Oh dear god LoL2 Heavy PC against someone who can't chip against them.
Knight vs Sofia (DQ4) - Resources.
Knight vs Alex (Lunar:SSSC) - Sure. 
Knight vs Kika (S4) - Sure.
Knight vs Cthulhu (CSTW) - Drain Strike~
Knight vs Edna (SH3) - Yeah, avoiding a two-rounding is a good way for Knight to win this, since he 2HKOs himself.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

superaielman

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Re: Proving grounds: Yep, bringing this back again. (Heavy)
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2012, 08:45:18 PM »
Updating all three PGs tomorrow. Get your votes and edits in now!
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...