Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 102

[SnowFire]

Actually.  So how long is the stun on Pow Hammer?  (Please, we're AMERICANS around here.)  If it's a turn then sure, the Mint hammertime lockdown should make battle 2 much easier, that's only 2 enemies getting actions now.

[Dhyerwolf]

Right, Protect getting potentially a few helps but, Hmm, I think I may have overrated Protect's speed. Average speed at this point...probably 5? CT of 4 means that it would go off at 80% speed (slower than Knight to everyone, just loses out to Galleon to me). This is bad since Priest theoretically either telegraphs Protect or Cure. If using Protect, Knight hits him or Marle and the 3 people probably may KO through Protect. If using Cure, Knight delays him turn (and I guess to me, Galleon opts for lower speed). So...what is Marle's approximate Pdur now? Ditto Priest.

[AndrewRogue]

Sorry, I'd offer some incredible insight, but my vote fu is weak.

[SnowFire]

On an entirely different note...  so the F8 boss rush lost its "all buffs are removed between fights" clause?  In that case, Team Pyro enters each fight fully buffed and rarin' to go, and steamrolls everything.  Not sure FF5 Haste was quite *that* hypable, but it's still solid, and don't see any boss haxy enough to both survive a blitz + do something unfair to turn the fight in their favor.  Anyway, assuming that's true, Pyro passes.  There'd theoretically be MP issues for Bartz burning Quicks so fast but lol !Mix.

[074]

Voting: Super and Ko pass, Andy fails, abstain on Pyro for now until I have little enough of a headache to think about F8.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bronzong can equip a berry to block confuse once (easy to get en masse in DPP), I forget if people allow dungeon enemies statusblockers though.

Also F1 should definitely cover up to the end of 2300 AD, that's definitely not more than 1/7 of the game. Getting magic makes a great F1/F2 cutoff.

[Pyro]

FF5 Haste is straight up Double speed. No ATB silliness like FF6/9 either. It's pretty awesome.

Also, looking at Dhyer analysis, how are Galleon and Knight delaying their turns/opting for lower speed mid-battle? Zuh?

[Dhyerwolf]

Knight can wait, right? Galleon just equips skills with less speed (Galleon does not need to change it up mid-battle because I am assuming that normal Knight damage+halved Galleon/Kwanda get their target). Bronzong being able to block Confuse once would be disasterous.

If later people are voting for Team Andy though being of revival threat from Priest...Knight may just go and try to break his MP.

[SnowFire]

Well.  Mint is really Andy's only hope now.  (If Bronzong is allowed a Berry, then Mint can theoretically Pikohan it instead while Marle Provokes someone else...)  Also wow Magic Break hype.  Yeah, considering that Team Andy 100% needs an 80% odds of Provoke to go off, and probably wants Provoke to hit twice as well, a 61% hit rate is more respectable here, there's getting to be too many chances Andy has to win.

So ideally, Bronzong needs to be denied an anti-Confuse Berry (and get Provoked), and then Mint needs to be able to lock down Knight with Pow Hammers since Knight can block confuse (and from a quick YouTube...  seems...  possible?!  Stun duration seemed okay...  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N1sdv3dyBwI , 3:40 in).  Random expressed skepticism if the Pow Hammer lockdown was really viable, though.  Keeping with the abstain for now I suppose, but things look grim without major Mint hype.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

In-game, assuming no interruption, it's possible to keep an enemy under a Pow Hammer lock... assuming the move doesn't miss and it doesn't get hit by anything else, interrupting the stun. The stun's duration is something like 2-5 seconds, which is very short, but its casting time is hilariously fast, making theoretical locks possible. I made the statement in all-caps for a reason, but considering how much Andy struggles, it's an actual theoretical consideration, but it gets into ARPG trainwrecking. I personally wouldn't give much credence to that approach.

[SnowFire]

Yeaaaaaaaaaaaaaah upgrading to a fail then, sounds like some minor Pikohan hype is in order but Andy needs the major Pow Hammer hype.

Of course, if this is Boss Mint from Tales of the Abyss, then the fact it's Floor 1 doesn't matter - Time Stop, healing, and Pow Hammers incoming backed by great durability.  Not much to stop that.  Should have picked her rather than PC Mint!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Team Pyro | Bartz, Hilda, Eiko, Jean, Marco (Body Charge)
[Bartz: (Mime) !Summon !Mix !Time (Red Mage) (Chemist) (Ninja) (Monk)]
*Jean has been granted White Dragon Protect.
Floor 8: Maze of Trials
Team Pyro vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2) - Chemist has status shutting down its skillset terror and ignoring immunity. Even with the offensive boost assuming Kiss of Blessing, that near-completely trivializes Mascot Y.
Team Pyro vs. Cloud of Darkness (DS), Zeromus (DS) and Chaos - Marco faster than everybody in the opposing team and Quick+Reset spam will make short work of at least Chaos and put a heavy dent on everybody else - possibly even killing EVERYTHING if he's patient.
Team Pyro vs. Boss Timelord, Belial (No 4D Pocket), Ultimecia and FF5 Time Mage - Belial barely misses the double on Jean, so WDP handles problems, avoiding that pesky 2HKO everywhere. Thus, Trans-turn into Bartz for unending horror.
*Full Heal
Team Pyro vs. Jenna Angel (When defeated, CT is set to 0 and is replaced with Isolde, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness) - Xorn's dispel is problematic in a vaccuum, but the team just gets so much room to work with. Time and Mix are a brutal little combo.
Team Pyro vs. Fou-lu (When defeated, CT is set to 0 and is replaced with Persephone (WA5), then then with Orphan, then Zophar) - White Dragon Protect >>>>> Orphan's Merciless Judgment and Quick+Meteor+Reset spam pretty much OHKOs Fou-Lu. In fact, the only boss that can even inarguably survive a Quick Reset string in this is -Orphan-, and White Dragon Protect applied judiciously manhandles way too much shit. Having so much MP healing and turn haxing makes Pyro's team a wonderful monstrosity.

Team Andy | Raquel (Speed?), Nei, Marle, Mint, Priest
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Andy vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4), Gorudo and Boss Catiua (TOPSP) - One does not simply lose to floor 1's first fight.
Team Andy vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1) - This fight is immensely tricky for Andy due to the brutally poor offense, and I don't think low-end mages would give him much mileage here anyway (helpful against... Kwanda. Galleon has elemental walling and great mdur, FFT Knight has FFT element cheese, Bronzong is the ultimate weakness troll). The modus operandi here is: Raquel, Nei and Priest want to go all out on FFT Knight (this works in a vaccuum, they're all substantially faster and should just manage a kill... but fails to account for evasion, and they're all tossing physicals). Problem is Bronzong immediately shuts this floor down if Heal Block goes off (it -is- a field effect, right?). Raquel quite possibly could live to start an Intrude chain eventually due to the mass of physicals (and Breaks against her are -hilarious- failure, they're inaccurate to begin with and evasion hurts them further), but the opposition is entirely capable of killing the healers before she gets there (Raquel needs three turns -minimum- to start Intruding, and more if she wants to get a chain of sorts going). And if team Andy loses its healers, it has no chance at all to go through this floor. So yeah, it's up to both Pow Hammer and Provoke hitting twice in a row - or Song of Serenity's accuracy busting being good enough to make these guys incapable of killing a PC per turn on average. It's even possible Raquel insta-doubles Bronzong if he's below 60% average speed, but I can't really think he'd be THAT bad, he'd have to pretty much ram my TB cap. Granted, the opposition pretty much 3HKOs across the board (Knight here hits resistance on Marle, Kwanda damage sucks), but Heal Block is just too nasty. Maybe this fight could stand to lose a body here if Bronzong is meant to stay, since shutting down healing vs. a floor 1 team can be one hell of a lockdown, but also hands an interesting dynamic to an otherwise barren floor. But yeah, team Andy sadly falls here. It's a nostalgic feeling.
Team Andy vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Andy vs. Slash and Flea
Team Andy vs. Augus (BoF2) and Shadow Yosuke -

Team Dune | Tir, Orlandu, Maxim, BoF3 Nina and FFT Priest (SSL)
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Dune vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4), Gorudo and Boss Catiua (TOPSP)
Team Dune vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Dune vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Dune vs. Slash and Flea
Team Dune vs. Augus (BoF2) and Shadow Yosuke - Even stat-nerfed Orlandu and Tir will make short work of floor 1.

Team Super | Ted, Zerase, Chemist (MT), Ninja, Tia
[Floor 1: Starting off Again (Beginning of the game)]
Team Super vs. Hrist (VP1), Evil Gaia, Big Joe, Snowe(S4), Gorudo and Boss Catiua (TOPSP)
Team Super vs. Bronzog, Galleon, FFT Knight and Kwanda Rossman (S1)
Team Super vs. Blissey, Axem Green, Augst and Lucius
Team Super vs. Slash and Flea
Team Super vs. Augus (BoF2) and Shadow Yosuke - Zerase and Ted vs. floor 1. Pain.

[SnowFire]

If a crippled team that has spent half the number of points allotted to it barely fails Floor 1, that doesn't mean F1 needs to be nerfed!  Andy presumably wanted the challenge...

...also Heal Block doesn't last after battle, so affects Battle 2 at the most, if even allowed.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Yeah, it's why it's a question mark. And that one fight sometimes may be all it needs, especially considering the rarity of revival this early. It's cool, though - helps justify the likes of Nall immediately and, as I said: "lol healing > floor 1" is so deeply ingrained that a design choice capable of actually shaking things up to some degree is very welcome. It's neat.

[Random Consonant]

Bronzor is 53 Spd, and Heal Block is neither listed as being MT or a Field Effect, for what those are worth.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

It's not MT nor a field effect? Welp, time to re-evaluate things AGAIN. And holy, that -may- be slow enough to hit the TB cap.

[SnowFire]

Bulbapedia claims it IS MT, though (not a Field effect.)  (Also doesn't stop item healing, but REVERSES elemental absorption, so more like reverse healing-becomes-damage in that case.  Weird if irrelevant, Knight doesn't want Ice Brand anyway.)

http://bulbapedia.bulbagarden.net/wiki/Heal_Block_(move)

Also it's Bronzong, not Bronzor in the fight.

[Random Consonant]

In Gen5, yes.  Gen4, however, makes no mention of it being such (though apparently Gen4 is worse about this sort of thing in comparison to Gen5), nor does the Diamond/Pearl stat topic include it in the list of moves that are MT/Field effects, and I would really, really assume Gen4 here.  Unless there is oversights being made here by multiple people.

[dude789]

Heal Block does effect both opponents in Gen 4.

[Random Consonant]

That really could've stood to be in the stat topic then, considering mention was made of everything else that does.  So as always, the solution is to kick Meeple.

[Dhyerwolf]

Including whether moves were MT was not standard for stat topics then (especially Pokemon where it is far less relevant overall).

[Random Consonant]

It's less of an excuse when there's a big ol' post indicating which ones are though!