Author Topic: FEDL 2, Week 1  (Read 2102 times)

Cmdr_King

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FEDL 2, Week 1
« on: December 03, 2013, 05:55:38 AM »
Remember to note games on characters in multiple.  Tiki is specifically 11 Tiki, not 13 Tiki, for example.

Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7)
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9)
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13)
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7)

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10)
Julia (4) vs Sephiran (10)
Larcei (4) vs Eirika (8)
Ced (4)  vs Dheginsea (10)     

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13)
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9)
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)
Nephanee (10) vs Zephiel (6)

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13)
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7)
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8)
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7)

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13)
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7)
Jaffar (7)  vs Lucia (10)
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13)

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13)
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7) 
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8)

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7)
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7)
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10)

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10)
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13)
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Innes (8) vs Mist (9)
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Random Consonant

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2013, 06:51:19 AM »
gonna go fill in the rest later

Godlike

Fomortiis(8) vs Dragon (7)
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9) - Yeah Giffca's pretty accurate and apparently 2HKOs the frailish Elincia without too much fuss.  Stun could tip but not inclined to hype that turn 1.
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13) - Yeah I don't consider Grima to have nearly the amount of pdur it'd need to pull this off considering FE boss HP plot is in full play.  Pavise could trip things up some, but so could Aether.  Eh.
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7) - gtfo boss naesala

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10)
Julia (4) vs Sephiran (10) - Sephiran takes one look at Julia res and puts his head in between his knees and kisses his ass goodbye.
Larcei (4) vs Eirika (8) - Pretty sure this is a case of just plain better.
Ced (4) vs Dheginsea (10) - Less sure on this, Dheggy's both very accurate and surely OHKOs if he can connect with a shot.  I'd throw FE4 a bone and say Pursuit still works against the folks sporting Nihil/Mantle/whatnot, so at the the same time, I'm not sure Dheggy gets more than one attempt. e: eh gutting for Dheggy accuracy, Sety doesn't really like that or the fact that Dheggy OHKOs him.

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13) - Someone slow for Cordelia to tear apart.  Limstella isn't actually very good.
Lundgren (7) vs Ike (9)
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13) - I'm going to gut Gangrel being above average threat range.  The Vaike doesn't like this.
Nephenee (10) vs Zephiel (6) - eh sure

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13) - Well uh.  WK Tana is asking to get eaten alive by Lancebreaker, FK Tana can either face Swordbreaker or WTD, crimping her evade in either case (and FK is going to be slower anyways), balance of interps makes me lean this way.
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7) - Facing down WTD doesn't make FE13 characters very happy.  No her non-lance options aren't going to be much better here (Thoron, for instance 6HKOs and runs into Hand Axe counters that 2HKO her).
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8) - Kneejerk
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7) - gonna just go with the elf on this

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13) - ^_^
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7) - Oswin doesn't double but he does 2HKO and isn't OHKO'd, and I'm inclined to agree with parking strats.
Jaffar (7) vs Lucia (10)
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13) - Huh.  Not too sure how I feel about FE11 Manakete levels but given the numbers listed Tiki doubles, two-rounds, and isn't at much risk of dying herself.

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13) - Valter has above average AS at least, but yeesh, that durability, not sure Chrom even needs weakness hitting hype to OHKO.
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7)  - one is slightly above in areas that matter, the other is slightly below.
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8) - Eh sure.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7) - I'm willing to squint and say their damage is fairly similar.  However one doubles and dodges, the other does not.
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7) - lol
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10) - Forged Wind OHKOs.

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10) - Heather is competent enough against FE mages in Light.
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13) - Okay, *mathmathmath*, Excellus has a smidge over 0.20 pdur and 0.36 mdur to me (yes, it's pathetic), and does ~0.745 PCHP in damage.  Axe Cleric Maribelle 3HKOs this... in exchange for getting doubled and 3HKO'd in return.  Yeah no, let's see how Valk Maribelle does, *mathmathmath* okay she 2HKOs and isn't 2HKO'd or doubled, never mind then.
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7) - NOT THINKING ABOUT THIS.
Innes (8) vs Mist (9)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2013, 05:11:02 AM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2013, 07:27:16 AM »
Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7)
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9) - I guess.
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13)
Grima actually translates quite well for once, but I'm inclined to hold pair-up stat bonuses at the very least against him, which makes his chances of winning plummet.  He's got some evade, but Lucina has even more.
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7) - I'll buy Malcom Masher's argument that Luna is pretty nasty here.

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10)

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13) - Good Resistance.
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9) - Ragnell is ranged, good luck with that Javelin.
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)
THE VAIKE has maybe a 50% hit chance here at best if he isn't just killed outright.  BUT BUT Silver Bow counters get around Weapon Triangle disadvantage?!  Kind of amusing this is a rare instance where a FE character with 1-2 Range will intentionally walk into Bow counterattacks, at least...

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13)
Cherche is going Griffon Rider here if you let her to turn off Vidofnir and that +5 DEF.  Flip side the miracle of class choice means Tana will use her rarely-used Falcon Knight form to still have a Sword, which matches up nicely against Griffon Rider's mono-axeness...  and Tana is surely doubling...  yeah.  (If you don't allow class swapping, Cherche's default is probably Wyvern Rider which has Swordbreaker, and she gets Vidof'owned and doubled anyway except against notably better Tana durability what with Braves exaggerating the impact of raw DEF.)
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7)
Sumia deeply struggles to do anything against Armads-Hector.  High DEF vs. Braves.
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8)
Depends entirely on if Rutger evades one of Lyon's blasts, since he isn't killing in a single double.  He probably does?  I'll let the FE6 experts weigh in.  EDIT: Or Rutger can let Lyon go first and get 3 shots in that way.  That works too.
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7)
Lyn is 7 speed above average.  Gaius is 11.5 above average!  Even if you somehow see Gaius as barely not doubling, that forces Lyn to use the Mani Katti, which kills her offensive potential.

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13)
Henry isn't doubled.  Ow.
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7)
More dark mage vs. General action.  EDIT: Sure, I'll buy the Oswin 2HKO I guess.
Jaffar (7) vs Lucia (10)
I think Jaffar wins the slugfest if everything is boring, but Lucia has a better Crit rate against Jaffar's poor Luck, and Astra is more likely to trigger than Jaffar's insta-kill?  Probably a coinflip.
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13)
Gregor is barely doubled via the stat topic numbers, I believe.  The Awakening cast hates relying on Braves vs. high-DEF types anyway (but loves it vs. low-DEF types).

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13)
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7) 
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8)
'k, Vanessa wants to attack last but needs to attack first because otherwise she has to equip a Javelin or something to fend off endless Hand Axe harassment.  (And 2x Hand Axe + Silver Axe is probably fatal to her.)  So Vanessa attacks first and doubles, then Raven smacks her back.  Raven easily 2HKOs, and no way Vanessa 2HKOs.  There's evasion hype but meh.  (I guess if you see 2x Hand Axe + Silver Axe as having a miss somewhere in there, then Vanessa wins off an easy 4HKO.)

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7)
So Serra doubles if she uses Lightning.  Problem: Lightning is 14 damage vs. a 22.8 damage average.  Ilyana's RES is 10.5 higher than average.  So Serra is doubling for ludicrously poor damage, or can switch up to Shine for probably the same amount of damage (loses the doubles, but +2 Mt).  Crits are not a concern for either side due to decent luck, so uh Ilyana's Flare - if allowed (!) - tips this, as halving Resistance is unusually good here.  Yes Flare is totally something you might care about in FE9 (not).
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7)
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10)
SPIN TRAITOR (Wind magic)

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10) - Heather is doubling.
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13)
Valkyrie Maribelle's Speed isn't THAT bad so no doubles and Excellus is slamming into Mari's excellent resistance and Mari can even go first if she desires (good MOV + berserk boss anyway).  Found footage: Valkyrie Maribelle winning a slugfest.
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Well Lyre doubles by a mile.  15 Gauge + Bartre using a Hand Axe means she absolutely must 4HKO off her 2 double attacks before de-transforming and getting slaughtered.  She deals around ~1.23 PCHP off 4 hits I believe, but Bartre is listed as having above-average defense and 1.41 PDur, so outtanked.  Lyre can try entering the battle untransformed, and she won't even get doubled, but that gives Bartre 2 free attacks and is suicide anyway.  I guess there's Rend hype, but meh.
Innes (8) vs Mist (9)
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:50:23 PM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2013, 01:12:25 PM »
For Random: Pursuit goes through FE4's version of Nihil/Mantle (Julius sez hi), if this serves as a tiebreaker of any sort.

Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7) - ITD 2HKO damage against Fomortiis!
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13) - EDIT: actually taking a closer look, I think I'm more inclined to take Grima's case here (I'm suspecting Lucina's better off using Braves ANYWAY outside of less odds for Pavise procs, I guess, and Grima is likely over 2x PC HP after defenses and Dragonskin).
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7) - uh no

Larcei (4) vs Eirika (8) - Neither is dodging much (Larcei is very accurate, but considerably less evasive, Eirika's less accurate but dodges more at base), but Eirika only doubles if she forgoes Sieglinde - and they're essentially trading hits by then. I suspect Larcei gets an Astra string going before Eirika lands a killing blow here.

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13) Limstella doesn't 2HKO and gets nearly one-rounded -at best-. And, being immobile, can't avoid counters either.
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9) - Superior damage and WTD isn't really enough, I think? I'm inclined to see Lundgren as unable to slam those Silver Lances against ranged damage.
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13) - Gangrel has 9 threat range, Vaike has 8 threat range at best. And Gangrel juuuuuuust nicks a one-rounding on even Warrior Vaike mdur. Yeah, this works, a Hand Axe/Silver Bow counter ain't really doing it even against Gangrel's egregious pdur.

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13) - I lock FE13 PCs to the class I feel they're better in. Even WTD isn't quite enough here, Tana offense is just too nuts and she still has like 40% evasion against dat Brave Axe.
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7) - Sumia baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaadly needs to one-round and she kinda can't even two-round.
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8) - Rutger parks in front of Lyon to force-trigger a counter, thus getting three shots at a crit, and is honestly likely to dodge a blast anyway.
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7) - There's a pretty notable accuracy and evade difference here, unless Gaius goes for Trickster... in which case he misses the 2HKO to Lyn at base, never a pretty sight. Lyn herself 2HKOs his ass regardless, Gaius concrete durability stats are a joke in Heavy.

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13) - Doesn't Nos spamming make this pretty trivial?
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7) - Oswin may not double, but parking for forced counters once again applies. Granted, Nergal might OHKO, but I don't -think- so?

Titania (9) vs Jill Fizzart (9) - Plain better.
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13) - Oh dear.
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7)  - Okay. Oscar can always get WTA on Eliwood and that's more or less that, I think (likely there's a durability difference too). Eli's never pulling off the Durandal unless he's going for a finisher either.
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8) - Vanessa may well double Raven - definitely does if he tries to flip the triangle (she waves a shiny Killer Lance in this case). If he doesn't, he just can't really hit her, high Skill be damned.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7) - Garcia, if nothing else, hits pretty hard. Doubles likely don't matter.
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7) - Ilyana 6HKOs, Serra 8HKOs with Lightning. However, doubling just keeps this out of reach for Ilyana, and Serra -actually- 7HKOs if she swaps to Shine on her last attack. Ilyana doesn't get to land a fourth attack. Considering how much Flare sucks, I don't think it would let her even -4HKO- Serra assuming an early proc, let alone 3HKO. Serra could miss (WTD and all), but so could Ilyana, and she's actually -more- likely to. This feels fairly clear-cut.
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7) - lulz

Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13) - Yyyyyeeeeah, I think I'm sticking with Valkyrie Maribelle.
Innes (8) vs Mist (9) - Oh dear.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 01:29:51 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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SnowFire

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2013, 06:27:34 PM »
Jo'ou: Hard Mode Grima has 33 Speed, so DL-legal Lucina doubles him or her.  It gets worse when you consider that Grima faces a notably higher PC Spd in-game than the DL lvl. 20/20 figures thanks to Pair-Up existing which should absolutely be held against him, something like +3.5 to all non-HP stats or thereabouts.  (Flip side, I at least see his nominal durability as good what with all the extremely relevant support credit, and Pavise's ~35% chance of screwing up Lucina hurts, but the weakness bonus given to Parallel/Exalted Falchion is pretty big, so it only goes so far.)

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2013, 06:38:18 PM »
I'm not sure how I feel about support credit myself, since you can skip straight to Grima first-turn and you need to kill a grand total of two enemies tops to do so (I've done that on both my playthroughs, ending the fight in an inglorious one-rounding). FLIPSIDE, this leads me to not respecting the parking strategy that I hyped against Nergal and Lyon nearly as much (you do that in FE13 and you get swarmed by the highly dangerous reinforcements pouring like rain), which I suspect Lucina may well need there with my disrespect for procs. I need to mull the fight over in general.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
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[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
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[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Cmdr_King

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2013, 02:21:52 AM »
Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7)
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9)
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13)
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7)

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10)
Julia (4) vs Sephiran (10)
Larcei (4) vs Eirika (8)
Ced (4)  vs Dheginsea (10)     

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13)
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9)
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)
Nephanee (10) vs Zephiel (6)

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13)
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7)
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8)- I kneejerk Lyon just OHKOs?  I suppose I should check.
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7)

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13)
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7)
Jaffar (7)  vs Lucia (10)
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13)

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13)
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7)
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8)- I think.  Lazy.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7)- Blech.  Y'know what, I'm going to just hype Serra getting a dodge and a crit in to just edge Ilyana out.
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7)
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10)

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10)
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13)
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Innes (8) vs Mist (9)
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 03:30:47 AM by Cmdr_King »
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2013, 03:01:27 AM »
Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7): I'm never sure how much I respect Fomortiis' DEF, and that makes the difference as to how good a dueller he is. Except against the Fire Dragon anyway. Easy OHKO.
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9): Giffca is very good, it just never matters in-game. Anyway both the pdur and the "good enough" speed make Elincia unhappy.
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13): Lucina 3HKOs Grima by my calculations (that's after some scaling... before it's a 7HKO). Like Snow I'm not going to hype a "parking" strategy here as that gets you murdered by Grima's support in-game, so she needs to survive two Grima attacks to win. I don't see her doing that. A timely Aether could tip things but a timely Pavise could the other way. And eh, I'm inclined to give Grima more-than-standard support credit anyway, that setup s/he has is pretty badass.
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7): Normal Mode boss Naesala is untransformed for the first several turns IIRC, which means he can only use Vortex against Athos res? I remember him not being an issue on that mode. Also "go away boss Naesala" vote.

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10): Just going to take the numbers directly for this one for simplicity. Nailah 7HKOs, Cain 3HKOs, but Nailah doubles. Cain's still killing in one less hit though. Of course, Nailah gets twice as many attacks to activate a mastery which is instantly fatal. And... on her own turns, since both counter each other so who attacks whom is meaningless until the fatal blow, Nailah can and should use all her own turns for GLARE and add some petrify chances to her mastery chances. Feels like it should end up overall in her favour for sure.

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13): Cordelia's durable enough to only be 3HKOed, so she should have little trouble winning I'd think.
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9): Ike doubling should take this.
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13): I'm sure you can make arguments against this, but meh, the kneejerk is strong with this one.
Nephanee (10) vs Zephiel (6): Mmm. Think I'm uninclined to hype park-and-counter here too, again Zephiel with the good, reinforcing support. As such I don't think Nephenee can quite manage, as both should two-round each other... actually looking at things it may not even matter, Neph doubles but probably 4HKOs rather than 3HKOs.

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13): Yeah pretty sure I don't allow class-flipping. If I did I'd let Tana get it too and get an A in her chosen weapon rank so it wouldn't even matter I think?
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7): Hm we saw Tana vs. Hector last time, didn't we? Feels like we will again, as I don't think Sumia's evade is good enough here.
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8): Enough HP to survive a Naglfar, and generally all-around great at slugging with the rare FE crit rate even I respect.
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7): I'm not sure which form of Gaius I vote on. Hmm, okay. Trickster fails to double or 2HKO, while Lyn 2HKOs him, but he's a fair bit more accurate unless Lyn uses a weapon which isn't a Silver Bow at which point she's either being doubled or not 2HKOing any more... Lyn has about 53 hit, Gaius about 75? That's pretty close. Lyn might be able to mix and match weapons to still 2HKO and avoid a double but ugh headache. Assassin doubles but now is getting owned on acc/evade. Still... he's striking twice as often and should still hit over half the time, which means it feels like it's his match in this form, but is close. I probably need to decide which form I see as better here.

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13): Brom doesn't love magic, and he's not doubling here either.
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7): Parking strategies.
Jaffar (7) vs Lucia (10): Lucia kinda not-great, probably more of a Light even? 4HKO and AS which doesn't double average THAT solidly.
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13): Sure.

Titania (9) vs Jill (9): Generally better stats outside speed which won't result in a doubling anyway.
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13): Exalted Falchion hype. Guess we'll see it again in round 2. And possibly in every single round if things fall out a certain way, though no clue if they will.
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7): Not much Eliwood respect.
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8): By my calculations, Vanessa does indeed double Iron Axe Raven (4 higher if both are at the cap, Vanessa's maybe a bit further from the cap but also has a slightly lower average to compete with). Hard to see Raven of the no S rank and GBA axe accuracy against the 53 evasion Vanessa pulling this off.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7): Surely.
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7): Serra 8HKOs and doubles, Ilyana 6HKOs. Easy even before evade concerns (which are only h
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7): lulz
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10): Wind!

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10): Yeah Heather vs. mages is pretty good.
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13): Maribelle 2HKOs and isn't 2HKOed.
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Innes (8) vs Mist (9): Sure.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2013, 06:57:49 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #8 on: December 04, 2013, 04:07:55 AM »
DarkHolyElf: Just loaded up my Hard mode file which happened to have a Lucina quite close to the stat topic one (post-Energy Drops).  If unpaired 35 Str Lucina never procs an Aether and Grima never Pavises, she deals 15 damage a hit  ((35+36 - 41) / 2) for a 6HKO against Grima's unscaled HP/DEF of 88 and with high accuracy.    (~85% or so unpaired, 90-97% with pair-up Skill bonuses.)  Grima meanwhile has ~82% accuracy against unpaired Lucina, and more like 57% accuracy against a good pair-up like Chrom (despite Anathema)!  A decent Lucina pair-up also gives her a 4% crit rate or so.  Anyway, for giggles, a Lucina / Chrom pair-up where Chrom is mysteriously forbidden from attacking (and those Pair-Up attacks never trigger Pavise...) would have Lucina 5HKOing while getting 2HKO'd exactly on the nose by Grima, but with Grima having 57% accuracy and also ramming into Pair-Up Defense.  Certainly enough for Lucina to win off attacks & counter -> Grima attack & counters -> finish 5HKO if we assume that Pavise & Aether even out, which they don't really since Aether's healing makes Lucina only get 3HKO'd. 

Anyway, sure, if you see Grima 2HKOing through the evasion and don't see him as 3HKO'd, it's their match, but eh, I usually think of myself as the one with high FE boss HP respect around here, just slightly weird.

EDIT: So Dark Holy Elf & myself both tested against Grima.  DHE sees projections that imply a 44 Def Grima with the Ire bonus, while I see damage projections / results that only use a 41 Def Grima that doesn't benefit from the terrain?  What?  Was there a patch to the game or something?
« Last Edit: December 04, 2013, 04:41:29 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #9 on: December 04, 2013, 04:57:44 AM »
I'm not inclined to hold defensive buffs against bosses, and the extra evade from pair up is very clearly that, so...

Anyway as per discussion in PM apparently Snowfire and I have different versions of the game or something else we haven't been able to figure out since in mine Grima gets +3 def from the panel s/he is sitting on and in his it does not (which explains the 6HKO/7HKO difference). Things that aren't the culprit: PC or weapon used to attack, difficulty mode, Grima's gender. I have no idea what's going on here. If anyone else feels like checking how the hell this works in their copy of the game do feel free since quite apart from this match itself I'd be very curious to know what the hell is up.

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #10 on: December 04, 2013, 05:20:31 AM »
Grima indeed sits on a +3 Def/+20 Avoid panel and is listed in projections as having those benifits and does in fact have them in actual practice on my copy (not that this matters to me either way since I don't consider terrain period) so color me confused as well.

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2013, 01:21:34 PM »
Grima's terrain works normally in my game as well. If there's a version difference, might it be between cartridge and download? (Download over here.)

Godlike

Fomortiis(8) vs Dragon (7)
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9)
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13) - By my scaling, Lucina 2HKOs and doubles. Pavise % > Aether but not by enough.
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7) - Can tank one round of beaking, which earns him two chances at an OHKO Luna off amazing accuracy. Naesala's not dodging both.

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10) - Glare stalling seems workable.

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13) - Surprisingly close; boss-level Def is a problem for FE13's multihitters.
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9)
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)
Nephenee (10) vs Zephiel (6)

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13) - Wyvern Lord seems like a given, it looks better both in general (spoils swords) and in particular (essentially forces WTA, which both games agree is +/- 1 dmg and 15 Hit here.) Tana 5HKOs and doubles, but Cherche 3HKOs and strikes consecutively. Evasion's not gonna save Tana, because after Hot Start and triangle effects, I reckon she'll actually have more trouble hitting than Cherche will. I don't think I allow Vidofnir, but if present it'd push Cherche to 4HKO and give +10 Hit to Tana; 4HKO and brave-double still beats 5HKO and normal double. Respect for Pierce: insufficient to compensate. Side note, hah to A-rank swords on initial-E Falcoknights.
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7) - Hector gets three Hand Axe attacks off against DF Sumia and only needs two to hit, but he's about 20 below average on Hit and she's about 15 above on Avoid. That's not good for him.
Rutger (6) vs Lyon (8) - I don't even have to do math for Lyon's Def. Hooray, FE6 Light Brand!
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7) - Either version of Gaius is just plain better than Lyn at her own schtick. (I do see Trickster as 4HKOing and thus 2RKOing, thanks to subtractive Def.)

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13) - Knight versus mage.
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7) - Knight versus... hold on. Oswin 2HKOs after scaling, is certainly not OHKOed, and gets his second hit sooner by exploiting immobile boss AI. Nergal, you make me sad.
Jaffar (7)  vs Lucia (10) - Silver Sword Jaffar (barely) 2HKOs, which trumps a 3HKO off better activation rates.
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13) - The handful of FE11 characters with actual stats make effective duelers.

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13)
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7)
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8) - Iron Axe Raven 2HKOs, is 4HKOed back and not doubled, doesn't lose accuracy by much due to WTA. Pierce respect: still not found.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7) - Ilyana struggles to deal significant damage, but Serra struggles to deal damage period, soooo.
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7)
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10) - Minerva really needs to OHKO here... off her below average damage. So, not happening.

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10)
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13)
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Innes (8) vs Mist (9)

Edit: Note that the same calculation method which gives Vanessa 28 Spd at level 20/11 and up would give Raven 26 Spd at level 20/11 and up. Can't picture her doubling him when he's at -1 AS, let alone unencumbered.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2013, 01:40:38 PM by MalcolmMasher »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2013, 03:16:48 PM »
I don't agree with 20/12 for FE8 and there aren't equal XP numbers for the game, so I took 20/15. At those levels, Vanessa has 29 Speed. Meanwhile, equal XP Raven gets... 25.5. He gets weighed down by -any- axe, so Killer Lance Vanessa doubles him under my threshold unless he uses a sword that way. EDIT: wait, 3.5 threshold. That gets him doubled pretty much regardless.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 03:26:54 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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MalcolmMasher

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #13 on: December 06, 2013, 05:34:38 AM »
I stand corrected on Vanessa's max Speed, forgot WK had a higher cap than FK, but the point remains that the same calculation method that gives Vanessa 29.0 Speed at her stat topic levels would give Raven 26.0 Speed at his topic levels. Equal EXP or not has nothing to do with it; the distinction is that the FE7 topics are using mean values, presumably from the old RPGDL FE stat charts, and the FE8 topics are using median values. (AS average is also higher in FE8 20/15 than FE7 Equal XP... although by an astounding 0.8.)

Reckon I see Raven as winning if doubled, too (2HKO vs 4HKO-and-double, his second attack will always precede her fourth) but there's no arguing that it substantially improves her case.

Edit: Which does raise the question, "does Assassin Gaius still double Lyn?" (if she has median 28.4 Spd instead of mean 27.6 Spd.) He's +11.6, she's now +7.8, and as his game requires 5 AS to double I would rule that he cannot. However, he gets first crack at dealing lethal damage thanks to Move +1, so I'm still leaning Gaius there. And obviously it doesn't matter for Trickster.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 10:41:44 AM by MalcolmMasher »

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2013, 09:27:59 AM »
Well, there's the thing: he only avoids doubles in that case if he runs swords - any axe weighs Raven down. Having WTA gives Vanessa an utterly egregious evade edge (his decent skill can't mitigate -15 hit stacked on top of nearly 60% base evade). And, honestly, with 80% evade, Vanessa does -not- need to double. She only does when under WTD.

EDIT: Yep, Raven gets weighed down by Iron Axes. And also misses the 2HKO on Vanessa (36% to roughly 0.75 pdur) that way. This pretty much slams the match down to me.

EDIT2: Wait! THE 1 DAMAGE BONUS! Yeah, there's the 2HKO. Hmmm. Vanessa needs to dodge once and Raven has... 65% hit rate according to the raw maths, but it should be in the 70s due to FE RNG. So, it's chancy. But... Vanessa now has 56% hit rate going straight from numbers with a Killer Lance. Yep, she's more likely to miss once than he is, and if she -does- miss... well, Raven needs to miss once regardless. I may flip my vote.
« Last Edit: December 06, 2013, 07:07:52 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Reiska

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2013, 05:21:11 AM »
Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7): yeah, easy win here.
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9): I don't think Elincia has the durability for this one.
Lucina (13) vs Grima (13): I do hold Pair Up against Grima, so yeah.
Naesala (9 (Boss)) vs Athos (7): Luna

Nailah (10) vs Caineghis (FE10): Yeah, sure, I'll buy glare hype.

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13)
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9): Doubles, GG
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)

Tana (8) vs Cherche (13): Even with class flipping I think this one is pretty safely Tana's.
Sumia (13) vs Hector (7): Hector has pretty good accuracy for an axe user, and then WTA.  Sorry Sumia.
Gaius (13) vs Lyndis (7): This match gives me a headache, NEB's argument seems legit, okay.

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13): I'm gonna KILL you! ^_^
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7): Parking, etc.
Jaffar (7)  vs Lucia (10): Lucia's out of her league here.
Tiki (11) vs Gregor (13): Gregor not like durable dragon.

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13): Falchion hype
Oscar (9) vs Eliwood (7): WTA
Raven (7) vs Vanessa (8): Inclined to respect Vanessa's evade here.

Light

Garcia (8) vs Marcus (7)
Ilyana (9) vs Serra (7): Close match, really.  If this were standard DL I'd probably give this to Serra, but since this is FEDL I'm honestly inclined to give more weight to FE defenses' in-game functionality (that is, being subtractive), which means the awful damage Serra does when doubling is that much more awful against Ilyana's RES.
Lucius (7) vs Morph Jerme (7): :getout:
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10): wind

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10)
Maribelle (13) vs Excellus (13)
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)
Innes (8) vs Mist (9): Ow.

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Re: FEDL 2, Week 1
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2013, 05:27:48 AM »
Godlike

Fomortiis(8)  vs Dragon (7)- iiiiiii
Elincia (10) vs Giffca (9)- iiiiii
Lucina (13)- iiiii vs Grima (13)- ii
Naesala (9 (Boss))- i vs Athos (7)- iiiii

Nailah (10)- iiii vs Caineghis (FE10)- i
Julia (4)- ii vs Sephiran (10)
Larcei (4)- iii vs Eirika (8)
Ced (4)  vs Dheginsea (10)- ii

Heavy

Limstella (7) vs Cordelia (13)- iiiiiii
Lundgren (7)  vs Ike (9)- iiiiiii
The Vaike (13) vs Gangrel (13)- iiiiiii
Nephanee (10)- i vs Zephiel (6)- iii

Tana (8)- iiii vs Cherche (13)- iii
Sumia (13)- i vs Hector (7)- iiiiii
Rutger (6)- iiiii vs Lyon (8)- i
Gaius (13)- iiiii vs Lyndis (7)- ii

Middle

Brom (9) vs Henry (13)- iiiiiii
Nergal (7) vs Oswin (7)- iiiiiii
Jaffar (7)- iiiii  vs Lucia (10)
Tiki (11)- iiiiii vs Gregor (13)

Titania (9) vs Jill (9)- iiiiiii
Valter (8) vs Chrom (13)- iiiiiii
Oscar (9)- iiiiiii vs Eliwood (7)
Raven (7)- iii vs Vanessa (8)- iiii

Light

Garcia (8)- iiiiii vs Marcus (7)- i
Ilyana (9)- iii vs Serra (7)- iiii
Lucius (7)- iiiiiii vs Morph Jerme (7)
Minerva (11) vs Sanaki (10)- iiiiii

Miriel (13) vs Heather (10)- iiiiii
Maribelle (13)- iiiiiii vs Excellus (13)
Lyre (10) vs Bartre (7)- iiiiii
Innes (8)- iiiiiii vs Mist (9)
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