Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 126 (Read 5426 times)

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #50 on:** January 19, 2014, 10:48:01 PM »

Unfortunately it doesn't. Augus can buff and attack and kill in a hat and therefore get around the counters. He might miss ohkoing peppita barely which ill check later. How is that counter damage though? Jokers follow up will definitely be deadly

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #51 on:** January 19, 2014, 11:01:51 PM »

Thanks.

Counter O is (150 x 4, 20% x4) 600% HP damage, 80% MP damage

Edit - Ok, this is a better Evade buff/Matador's Song example since Yuna mostly just spams Ultima non stop in that other vid -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1SQFvUdEPvw

Gogo Dark Ifrit not landing a single base physical attack~

I think it is literally Evade x10. You might want to talk to Tonfa about it though.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #52 on:** January 20, 2014, 02:34:48 AM »

Actually, looks like per Tonfa's topic, its +10 to Evade. With that video, I suspect that perhaps Yuna was set up with good evade to start (since she evades the first attack anyways?). Well, I don't really know, but that's the problem. Without knowing, we can't really say. Maybe there are some other videos that might help?

I know that there are some accessories that boost evade (via evade or luck), so there might be some factors there too. Lot of unknowns.

Pyro · « **Reply #53 on:** January 20, 2014, 02:45:26 AM »

There doesn't appear to be a concise source for information on this. Might help dodge at least one attack of Augus'

Lucia's Rage and Gale buffs seem rather potent, right? +50% damage and something like +100% effective speed per Dhyer's SH2 notes?

Perhaps that would help kill Augus much faster, but then the team still has to deal with Joker's MT...

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #54 on:** January 20, 2014, 04:26:17 AM »

Base Evade stat shown in the menu -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqGke8_pOuc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01OhK8iR0S4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=taJ8aBDr1pU

Also shown in that Yuna solo vs shell thing I showed on the previous page (base Evade 10)

Unless X-2 enemies all just have really awful Accuracy to start with or something.

I am sorry for inflicting so much X-2 on you all!~

For what it's worth Meru initial armour is A-AV/Attack Evade 10%. Also mmm any chance at all of Meru surviving a second Poison Chop if she just defends on her second turn (LoD defend is half damage, non ID status immunity, 10% HP restore)? If Monk/Peppita counter damage somehow finishes Augus off before the third round and Monk/Peppita/Meru somehow all make it to the third round ... Joker probably finishes Peppita off but she gets her damage in first, maybe Meru will get a double and be able to restore another 20% HP, and apparently Monk self healing isn't very good but apparently he can still set Kick! and Chakra!, so if Peppita/Monk counter damage finishes Augus off before the third round, and Monk is still at full health for the third round hmm. Well the longer this battle drags on the more the chance of Nall randomly reviving someone increases.

For Monk there's also that evade boosting accessory, the Elven Mantle (Speed +1, Magic +1, Magic Evasion +5. 33% chance of evading attacks,Cloak that sometimes evades physical attacks, find Walse, Karnak, Moogle Village, steal Cherie, drop Halicarnassus) if you allow it. For Meru there is also the Elude Cloak (20% A-AV) which is a drop from Yellow Bird (which with her armour would give her 30% base A-AV)

Also Dhyer for what it's worth FFX-2 has a sleep blocking accessory so Silence song won't get interrupted for the first fight at least. Doesn't Lucia want to defend until only one enemy is left before healing the team up assuming the initiative Demi? Or she could get the status immunity up on the rest of Monk/Meru/Peppita with Misty X Ocean. Well maybe Meru wants to defend too since LoD defence blocks status.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #55 on:** January 20, 2014, 11:18:04 PM »

Few random notes

--I'm guessing things like evade for Monk and such are accessories (aka: No go for Nyarlys)
--Is that Sleep blocker for Songstress bought in a floor 1 equivalent place?
--Evil Gaia is faster than Lucia, so using the status resist Aromatherapy would work.
--Not too sure how I would feel about defending in Nyarly's as a strategy myself (since now I'm more iffy about it DLwise too).

So...across the videos I've watched of Ifrit, he definitely has some accuracy issues (I saw him hit once with that basic). But maybe looking like Matador's Song is good+enemy acc is bad (but the balance being that most enemies have some ITE). Augus accuracy is noted as good, which implies to me doesn't really miss. So this could be a working strategy. Or it could like FFX mechanics, where bad accuracy is super punished versus evade but better accuracy isn't. Guess I'm back to abstain.

ThePiggyman · « **Reply #56 on:** January 20, 2014, 11:39:09 PM »

Quote from: Dhyerwolf on January 20, 2014, 11:18:04 PM

--Is that Sleep blocker for Songstress bought in a floor 1 equivalent place?

The Twist Headband (sleep-blocking accessory in X-2) is available right at the beginning of the game from the hypello in the Celcius.

Pyro · « **Reply #57 on:** January 21, 2014, 01:27:57 AM »

Defend strategies seem like they should be fair game in the dungeon. Especially where you want to keep a healer alive or something. If one member of your team actually wants to do NOTHING and that is somehow advantageous, then go for it! It's not like enemies are FORCED to attack that person or anything.

If enemy accuracy is bad in FFX-2, then that would tend to imply that Matador's song is better after scaling.

For example if it was +50% evade, but enemy accuracy was 50% to start with, then it would be effectively a perfect evade buff. Kind of like how a defense buff would be better in a game with a lower enemy Attack stat. Fun with scalings!

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #58 on:** January 21, 2014, 05:07:22 AM »

But then against an enemy with 90% accuracy, it would be 40% evade.

Pyro · « **Reply #59 on:** January 21, 2014, 04:15:38 PM »

You are seeking to capture the efficcacy of this buff and translate it fairly. If every enemy had 50% accuracy it would indeed be a perfect evade buff.

Look at an array of 7 enemies however!
20%, 30%, 40%, 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%...

Averages out to 50&. After a -50 buff...
0%, 0%, 0%, 0%, 10%, 20%, 30%...
Averages out to 8.57%, which if you scale to the original implies a hit-rate of 17.14%.

So no longer perfect but still rather good!

Point here being Matador's song would be better than it says on the tin if FFX-2 base enemy hit rate was lower.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #60 on:** January 21, 2014, 07:11:29 PM »

Thanks again for all the inputs guys

Well I checked some sources, Wiki, FF Game Mechanics guide, you tube, etc and apparently Garland has no elemental or status resistances, and apparently his accuracy isn't that great either, so it seems either Blind or Matador's Song would work for him. So that's one less thing to worry about at least if Songstress goes that route.

(sources -http://finalfantasy.wikia.com/wiki/Garland_(Final_Fantasy_Boss)
http://www.gamefaqs.com/nes/522595-final-fantasy/faqs/57009 (boss section near bottom)

Say Kick! eliminates the damageless scrubs and Gaia, Ammes, Garland, Gobi and Igglanova are left. Garland is neutered by Matador's Song or Blind. Question is can Meru/Peppita combo finish off Ammes before it gets off a second Demi (and Meru might want to defend so Gaia sleep doesn't get through) Songstress is protected by Twist Headband so she's not getting interrupted. Gobi and Igglanova ... Gobi can be blinded?, what's his accuracy like? (does BoFI even have an accuracy stat >_>) Igglanova has to wait to summon two supports to attack? ... I'm not incredibly inclined to respect this guy based on what I know so far >_>

As SnowFire said Lucia just needs to survive at least one Poison Chop to heal up team + revive Songstress in the next round, sure Songstress probably just goes right back down again vs Augus but it's creating more targets, and means he's not double acting on somebody else, and probably means not getting around Peppita counter that way too.

**

Fun stuff -

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VZkFcJuidYw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xgbrnwdEwtw

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #61 on:** January 22, 2014, 03:42:50 AM »

Sinspawn Ammes is like 2 PC HP, so no way that Peppita, Meru and Kick come anyways close (In fact, that doesn't even get off half of it's HP). Meru really is so non-helpful with physicals. I don't think BoF 1 physicals miss, so average accuracy for Gobi.

Granted, things are looking a lot better on the third fight regardless, I think. There still a danger though (which I'll match out later) of Joker getting Lucia and then Augus opting to kill Songstress before Matador Song goes off (Even better, he'll kill Songstress in one hit with Joker in play, and then use the second hit to charge up). Note that Meru has to defend...or else he will use that extra attack to kill her instead of buffing up (although if she used the spell this turn, he may not care)

So playing with numbers, I first realize on mults listed, Peppita is about 10% above average on mults (Maybe a little worse. Adray and Sophia are stuck with Firebolt, but...I was just playing yesterday and Adray joined with better spells. Let's say that probably knocks her down to average, because Ice Needles is significantly beter). So she's about 60% to August

So: Monk (60)+Peppita(53)+Meru(55)+Lucia(Rages Monk)+Songstress charges futility->Joker MTs, bye Lucia; Augus kills Songstress, kills Meru
Monk (90)+Peppita (53)=3.1 (almost killing Augus, but still a little short)
Joker MTs (So Monk and Peppita have now taken 68% of average PC HP). Augus comes around and kills Peppita for sure.

Under this scenario, seems like they come close. They really want to get Augus out in two rounds. This could potentially be worse...if any damage sticks on that second fight. It's just worth noting because I think Lucia can use that Aromatherapy like 7 times. I do not know how many times she'll need to use it in the first match. But Meru coming into the third fight haven taken any hit=Joker's move KOs. I say this because I'm expecting Lucia's Aromatherapy to be pretty bad, and then it's getting halved. Either Songstress is using Silence, or a bunch of enemies are getting easy shots (which...maybe it would be better to let Sinspawn Ammes get multiple demis and shut off everyone else but EG minus some luck stuff. I...don't know). Of course, the half turn charge time on Matador's Song would probably mean that most of those physical fighters are going to get in a shot anyways, so Silence is probably best. I'm assuming Garland is 20% damage, Gobi is like 25%. Igglanova (assuming you let him attack round 1) is 15% and Evil Gaia will be opting for 12% Magic (that's a little AoE I think with Howl. Just to note that it probably gets two). So yikes...even letting the non Iggy people get a turn equals approximately 75% PC HP damage that one round. After the first Demi, Lucia is definitely basically going down. So yeah, both the 1st and 3rd fights have nasty aspects. If Songstress uses Matador, they will rush and kill her before it goes off. And while Lucia does have the awesome non-CT resetting revival...there is still going to be that time gap where that CT fits in (Not to mention that since Lucia is reviving at 1 HP, Evil Gaia will always be able to just kill Songstress the next turn).

If Matador was instant, would be enough for a pass I think, but that 0.5 CT makes a lot of things outspeed here. Kind of babble at this point, but yeah, it's does good when we are looking at some damage is sticking on that first fight.

Pyro · « **Reply #62 on:** January 22, 2014, 04:06:08 AM »

Doesn't any move of significance in FFX-2 have CT? At that point it should be factored in for the first turn's average speed and so on and so forth.

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #63 on:** January 22, 2014, 04:40:30 AM »

Well, some moves of significance have recharge times instead of charge times (see: All of Songstress' Dances. Gunner and Theif are the two other classes that are very RT oriented skillset wise. For whatever reason, basically the first classes. Most classes at least have a basis for RT with their basic physicals). So...you could make that argument, but then realize that means that we don't have a cohesive speed or damage average for this game that has been numeratized. For all that I'm sure Songstress would love the argument that all her dances are 150% speed now, that view strikes me as headachey.

Pyro · « **Reply #64 on:** January 22, 2014, 06:00:15 PM »

I suppose the alternative is to consider it via damage averages.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #65 on:** January 22, 2014, 06:25:54 PM »

I didn't realize Songstress Charge Times were a thing, or I probably wouldn't have picked her. I didn't realize she was quite as all out fragile as we found either. Well she could maybe use a half point drop or something then? I also feel she isn't quite as useful for the new F1 as she used to be early floors before.

Right, SO3 INT/magic damage doesn't completely fail early on, and right forgot Adray had Ice Needles, for some reason I thought it only had three hits though. Is that damage assuming Magic Hook or physical spam though? Also I just realized about Magic Hook though for the first fight couldn't Peppita status somebody out? I guess if people aren't going allow the bosses to be confused/chaosed though. Kind of a shame since most of them, Garland, Ammes, etc have joke/no status resistance/are complete status bait (Garland). Should work for Gobi regardless though.

Also Dhyer I'm not sure but are you assuming Monk does much lower damage with Kick! than attack or something? I might be confused about something/getting something wrong but in the stat topic Kick and attack damage seem more or less the same, with attack only doing slightly more due to Kaiser Knuckles. I don't think those are available now? Also Monk is mastered if that helps/means anything. (edit, wait I am the silly apparently I missed the x2 bit, attack/fight has two hits, and is nothing to do with Kaiser Knuckles really >_>)

Dhyerwolf · « **Reply #66 on:** January 22, 2014, 07:58:51 PM »

Yeah, I factor RT/CT into damages.

Songstress dances don't have CTs (and were normally thought of as the money moves before).

For the first match, I thought that Peppita was working to try to finish someone off (or aiming at it). But yes, she could theoretically status out Gobi at least.

Songstress is actually a little bit more durable than I gave her credit for (But she's 0.67 Pdur this early instead of 0.6 I think assuming that HP/Def ratios are constant to endgame. If they aren't constant to endgame, then I'm clueless), but not enough to save her for the Joker/Augus KO combo.

Monk's physical is listed as 2654 at endgame and Kick is listed as 1100 (Note that without Kaiser Knuckles, Kick is like 600).

Dark Holy Elf · « **Reply #67 on:** January 22, 2014, 08:21:19 PM »

Kick should hover a little under half whatever you see Monk's physical damage is, at all points. Both are affected equally by Kaiser Knuckles.

Clear Tranquil · « **Reply #68 on:** January 26, 2014, 06:09:49 PM »

Thanks again for the inputs everyone~

Does anybody have an estimate of how much HP% Garland and Igglanova are supposed to be for F1 since Ammes is 2.0 and I assume Gaia is like 3.0?

Nephrite · « **Reply #69 on:** February 02, 2014, 09:00:42 PM »

If people could do me a favor and finalize the votes for this week I would appreciate it very much.

SnowFire · « **Reply #70 on:** February 02, 2014, 09:06:30 PM »

I will unfortunately change my abstain on team CT to a fail. Forgot that D lvl. 1 Dragoons can only hold a single turn of charge and it's worthless for them defensively, so no "Meru stocks up a bunch of Dragoon energy early on" strat.

Pyro · « **Reply #71 on:** February 03, 2014, 02:44:33 AM »

Final vote will be Fail on CT (just no way around the '1 healer' who can not heal herself thing), Pass on everyone else.

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Author Topic: Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 126 (Read 5426 times)