Proving grounds: More puny. More :-*. Run for the hills.

[superaielman]

I'm throwing together another puny field before updating the main field (Finally) These punies should be far better than the ones I threw out last round, as I was aiming for lowish lights.


Paula (EB) vs Kain (FF4)
Paula vs Sancho (FM4)
Paula vs Enrique (SoA)
Paula vs Doll (Saga)
Paula vs Dean (WA5)
Paula vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Paula vs Onix (PKMN)
Paula vs Palmer (FF7)
Paula vs Ward (FF8)
Paula vs Guido (G1)
Paula vs Swordmaster (BD)
Paula vs Relm (FF6)

Gong (SF1) vs Kain (FF4)
Gong vs Sancho (FM4)
Gong vs Enrique (SoA)
Gong vs Doll (Saga)
Gong vs Dean (WA5)
Gong vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Gong vs Onix (PKMN)
Gong vs Palmer (FF7)
Gong vs Ward (FF8)
Gong vs Guido (G1)
Gong vs Swordmaster (BD)
Gong vs Relm (FF6)

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)
Maribelle vs Sancho (FM4)
Maribelle vs Enrique (SoA)
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga)
Maribelle vs Dean (WA5)
Maribelle vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN)
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7)
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8)
Maribelle vs Guido (G1)
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD)
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6)

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)
Frederick vs Sancho (FM4)
Frederick vs Enrique (SoA)
Frederick vs Doll (Saga)
Frederick vs Dean (WA5)
Frederick vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN)
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7)
Frederick vs Ward (FF8)
Frederick vs Guido (G1)
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD)
Frederick vs Relm (FF6)

[superaielman]

Gong (SF1) vs Kain (FF4)- Drain spear at worst.
Gong vs Sancho (FM4)- Gong has nearly double the offense (...) but Sancho has so many more shots of healing. Sancho's awful durablity makes this interesting, but not enough with the counters in play.
Gong vs Enrique (SoA)- Enrique needs to kill in five turns. He can probably kill in four.
Gong vs Doll (Saga)- Power grab does it's thing.
Gong vs Randolph (Lufia 3)- Limit.
Gong vs Onix (PKMN)- Gong offense sadder than Onix offense here. Pathetic.
Gong vs Palmer (FF7)- Palmer only had a couple of shots of offense IIRC.
Gong vs Ward (FF8)- Gong, giving all the limits.
Gong vs Guido (G1)- Guido is rancid.
Gong vs Swordmaster (BD)- The Worm Turns makes Gong sad. It's possible he can chip around it but SM's counterstance makes him exceptionally sad.
Gong vs Relm (FF6)- Doubt Relm healing takes her to 2HKO by GONG offense.

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)- Way too much speed and damage. 
Maribelle vs Sancho (FM4)- I don't think Sancho doubles here and counters are going to give him issues.
Maribelle vs Enrique (SoA)- Royal Blade's a OHKO, he should survive two Maribelle turns to get it.
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga)- MDef makes Doll unhappy.
Maribelle vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN)- >_<
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7)- Palmer's magic damage.
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8)-0 Think Ward smashes her face in even with a relatively low opinion of FF8 offense.
Maribelle vs Guido (G1)- Guido's doubling.That... that's probably enough?
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD)
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6)- Cathood/drain game. Relm is scary in low light.

Frederick (FE13) vsKain (FF4)- Strong kneejerk.
Frederick vs Sancho (FM4)- Healing trumps the edge in durability here offhand.
Frederick vs Enrique (SoA)- Kneejerk.
Frederick vs Doll (Saga)- Draining.
Frederick vs Randolph (Lufia 3)- Strong kneejerk.
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN)- Sorry Ciatokins.
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7)- Magic.
Frederick vs Ward (FF8)- Counters should tip it.
Frederick vs Guido (G1)- Guido.
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD)- wtf no
Frederick vs Relm (FF6)- Can punish her for healing nonsense, outslugs otherwise.

[Dhyerwolf]

Paula (EB) vs Kain (FF4)- Not Paula
Paula vs Enrique (SoA)- Not Paula
Paula vs Doll (Saga)- Doll. If Paula uses Reflect, Doll dispels+damage. If Paula uses damage, Doll drains.
Paula vs Dean (WA5)- Not Paula
Paula vs Randolph (Lufia 3)- jesus Super why
Paula vs Onix (PKMN)- Paula...
Paula vs Palmer (FF7)- Depends on whether Paula's reflect would get his stuff. Don't remember if FF 7 Reflect did
Paula vs Ward (FF8)- Not Paula
Paula vs Guido (G1)- Not Paula. For all Guido's faults, Paula is barely faster, barely more damaging, but only has 2/3 the HP. This is a gut reaction/Jesus Super.
Paula vs Swordmaster (BD)- Not Paula
Paula vs Relm (FF6)- Not Paula


Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)- Well...I don't think Kain 2HKOs to me, but there always weighing how much to consider the spike of Holy. Well, I guess Kain does have decent Mdur, so Kain.
Maribelle vs Enrique (SoA)- Enrique
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga)- Maribelle
Maribelle vs Dean (WA5)- Dean. 2HKOs her
Maribelle vs Randolph (Lufia 3)- I guess I'm just not touching Rudolph today
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN)- Well, Onix halves her damage, which she balances with Counters. But...Onix does have like a 5HKO to average, which is a 3HKO to Maribelle, which is essentially eating 2.5 of her attacks. Onix has 0.46 MDur, so...I think she should take it.
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7)- Mariblle
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8)- Ward. Don't think she deals well with avoiding a limit
Maribelle vs Guido (G1)- Maribelle
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD)- Swordmaster. Um...well, tie breaking against the one who has to act in a way that will negatively impact her in the battle.
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6)- Relm

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)- No free counters=at least here I don't have to think over whether Kain triggers them
Frederick vs Enrique (SoA)- Needless to say, with my damage average, Frederick is massacred. Going on average PC AS averages, Frederick barely wins (but only if you don't see Enrique doubling with a back up physical after using Royal Blade. I would be loathe to give Frederick credit for facing someone where the whole game is built upon getting one big shot of damage myself).
Frederick vs Doll (Saga)
Frederick vs Dean (WA5)
Frederick vs Randolph (Lufia 3)- I don't
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN)
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7)
Frederick vs Ward (FF8)- No free counters=Frederick is not avoiding a limit. Of course, even so...yeah, I'm giving waiting for an FF 8 limit a hell of lot more credit than Frederick just completely stopping acting (which he needs to do to avoid a limit and then rely on counters)
Frederick vs Guido (G1)- Yeah, Frederick without free counters is so horrible that he loses to Guido due to eating too many doubles. GUIDO.
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD) - Tiebreaking for the one who can act without losing (Oh wait, no free counters=auto loss here anyways)
Frederick vs Relm (FF6)

Maribelle 4-6
Paula 2-8 (Jesus Super why)
Frederick 0-10 (Really needs free counters)

[Random Consonant]

Paula (EB) vs Kain (FF4) - Resists.
Paula vs Sancho (FM4) - Counters and the backpack.
Paula vs Doll (Saga) - No.
Paula vs Dean (WA5) - le 2HKO.
Paula vs Randolph (Lufia 3) - Paula 2HKOs!  And neither instadoubles or manages the chipsmash on the inevitable double to me, which means I see Randolph getting something horrible off.
Paula vs Onix (PKMN) - ICE WEAKNESS.
Paula vs Palmer (FF7) - I'm not 100% sure I'd see PSI Shield working here, it's pretty picky about what it covers and you could probably argue Mako Gun falls outside it, though that's not really a side I'd care to argue in favor of, it's pretty much a duplicate of the various L2s.  That said as brought up last time it still bounces back stuff that destroys it and Palmer is not exactly a limitless font of MP, so she should outlast his 10 shots easily enough no matter what.
Paula vs Ward (FF8) - Probably
Paula vs Guido (G1) - e: wait he can grab ice res apparently?  oh dear.
Paula vs Relm (FF6) - Resists.

Rest of this spectacular marvel later.

Gong (SF1) vs Kain (FF4)
Gong vs Sancho (FM4)
Gong vs Doll (Saga)
Gong vs Dean (WA5)
Gong vs Randolph (Lufia 3)
Gong vs Onix (PKMN)
Gong vs Palmer (FF7)
Gong vs Ward (FF8)
Gong vs Guido (G1)
Gong vs Relm (FF6)

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4) - Yeah while Miriel could pull this off, Maribelle's borderline 4HKO with Rexcalibur isn't quite good enough here.
Maribelle vs Sancho (FM4)
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga) - It's Doll.
Maribelle vs Dean (WA5) - Yep.
Maribelle vs Randolph (Lufia 3) - Either Maribelle doubles and just one-rounds or FE and damage control applies and Randolph becomes a victim of his wretched near -2 SD speed anyways.  Dark Sword doesn't OHKO in any event.
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN) - Gen4 maybe barely wins, Gen3 loses and I'm just gonna assume that's what was intended in this PG and spare myself a headache.
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7) - Mdef.
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8)
Maribelle vs Guido (G1) - Guido.
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6)

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain (FF4) - At a guess both four-round each other, and while I likely don't see Jump doubling I also don't likely see it triggering melee counters here and as usual Frederick hand axe strats scare nothing.  I'll get back to this when I can decide who I see going first here.
Frederick vs Sancho (FM4) - Oh god.
Frederick vs Doll (Saga) - ewwwww.
Frederick vs Dean (WA5) - 3HKOs, can likely survive two of Frederick's turns and a counter.
Frederick vs Randolph (Lufia 3) - FE and damage control.  Even if Frederick's wretched -12 AS gets him doubled by *Randolph* of all people I don't think 2x Dark Sword *quite* manages the kill.
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN) - Nope.
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7) - Two-rounds at worst.
Frederick vs Ward (FF8) - Kneejerk for countering.
Frederick vs Guido (G1) - Uhh could Guido equip bows/how much of a damage drop is it if so?
Frederick vs Relm (FF6)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Gong (SF1) vs Kain (FF4): Blood Spear is pretty horrible... but yeah probably handles Gong.
Gong vs Doll (Saga): Charm is a problem Gong can't really afford, since it drains all his MP really quickly. Draining takes care of the rest.
Gong vs Dean (WA5): I think he can handle this. If I'm underrating Dean's crit rate, though, the latter might take it, since those criticals do hurt.
Gong vs Onix (PKMN): Onix has all the time he needs to minimise Gong's defence then start 2HKOing.
Gong vs Palmer (FF7): Finite Palmer MP.
Gong vs Ward (FF8): Oh dear, that would be a limit.
Gong vs Guido (G1): Guido only 4HKOs Gong, so isn't much of a threat.
Gong vs Swordmaster (BD): I think? Know Thine Enemy + The Worm Turns is too many nasty counters for Gong to trigger, and Swordmaster's extra durability helps a lot.
Gong vs Relm (FF6): Relm turtle strats are superior.

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4): Outslugs unless Kain both fails to double and doesn't trigger counters. Which is possible of course, but I'm inclined to see Jump ignoring FE mechanics entirely just because the idea of Jump doubling is kinda nonsensical... which in turn means no counters are triggered. Kain 3HKOs and is faster.
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga): I think so. Any missed Power Grab is disastrous. Maribelle 3HKOs and counters and may even double, so yeah, ugly.
Maribelle vs Dean (WA5): Outslugs by 2HKOing and not being 3HKOed. It's kind of depressing how below average speed/damage fighters can still beat Maribelle.
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN): Onix resists all the FE elements, so hey Maribelle only... uh, 3HKOs, good job Onix MDef. Onix gets one attacking turn, great.
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7): Oh no, ST magic damage against Maribelle. I think Palmer may lose this even if he doubles, and I'm not at all sure he does.
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8): Maribelle has the damage control to dodge a limit, but Ward... does like 30% to average with his normals, so wins the same way Dean does.
Maribelle vs Guido (G1): Finally Maribelle faces a fighter who can't 2HKO her. lol Guido.
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD): Before Swine 3HKOs and the magic halving means he has all the time he needs.
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6): Faster and halves elements so isn't 4HKOed, and 3HKOs at worst.

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain (FF4): Kain is faster and 4HKOs with Jump, while Frederick should miss the 3HKO the other way. Close though!
Frederick vs Doll (Saga): PowerGrab is boosted considerably here, so I think Fred is screwed.
Frederick vs Dean (WA5): Doubles and counters offset. Fred goes first, but... I think Dean needs one less hit to kill (definitely needs 3... think Fred needs 4)
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN): Doubled Slam is a 4HKO... of course that triggers counters so may not be wise, although Onix may survive eight Fred attacks anyway? Yikes. Regardless he opts for another strategy, Screech first then trigger fewer counters that way.
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7): Oh no, magic damage!
Frederick vs Ward (FF8): Not sure Fred has the needed damage control to avoid a limit... or that he'd win anyway, Ward doubles with normal attacks and may just outslug.
Frederick vs Guido (G1): If Guido can double with a ranged weapon he might take this, but the stat topic doesn't say how good bows are at the time and like hell I'm tiebraking an unknown for GUIDO.
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD)
Frederick vs Relm (FF6): Counters and doubles offset, both 4HKO, Relm is faster.

Maribelle 4-5
Gong 3-6
Frederick 1-8

Bunch of winners here.

[SnowFire]

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)
Maribelle vs Enrique (SoA) - Royal Blade OHKOs, yah.
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN)
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7)
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8)
Maribelle vs Guido (G1)
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD) - Swordmaster literally helpless against War Cleric despite 8x WTA swordstrikes, wut (~.28 PCHP before WTA?  Still not enough...).  You'd think being able to stock up turns would be good vs. crappy regen....  oh but wait MULTITASK and REDOUBLED EFFORT.  No.  Also Valk may win anyway (SOMEHOW), see Fred argument.  (SM is basically uber-awful vs. FE as best I can tell.)
Maribelle vs Relm (FF6) - Relm kills Valkyrie, War Cleric has infinite fight of doom where her damage is probably worse.

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain (FF4)
Frederick vs Enrique (SoA) - huh, so Royal Blade barely misses the OHKO (.81 damage to .82 PDur).  And...  it really needs to OHKO, Fred will 4HKO himself, or else be seen as doubling for free despite not having enough SP.  Sorry, Enrique.
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN)
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7)
Frederick vs Ward (FF8)
Frederick vs Guido (G1) - Yeah, Guido BOW TEST time but probably not.
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD) - Neither are bosses and both have counters they want the other to attack into, so everybody sits back and chills out, draw due to boredom.  If both are forced to attack the other, Fred easily crushes despite getting doubled, SM is the one who gets slaughtered if people start making moves.
Frederick vs Relm (FF6) - I'll buy Elf's argument.

Maribelle: 4-4
Fred: 3-5

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Paula (EB) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - Kain is faster and 3HKOs. While Kain is bad and should feel bad for failing to 2HKO Paula with -physicals- when the likes of SARADIN can manage, she likely would 4HKO back even -without- resist shenanigans. applies.
Paula vs Doll (Saga) - A fight won by DarkSphere's DISPEL. Congrats, Paula.
Paula vs Onix (PKMN) - Oh dear god, Ice damage against Onix. Those are some pretty fireworks.
Paula vs Palmer (FF7) - Even having Lightning to break the barrier, Palmer runs out of resources looooooooooooong before Paula does.
Paula vs Ward Zaback (FF8) - Typical .
Paula vs Guido (G1) - OH DEAR GOD SUPER. Regardless, Guido 3HKOs and can get his hands on Ice res, which means he -definitely- avoids getting 3HKOed back.
Paula vs Swordmaster (BD) - Before Swine/Know Thine Enemy and The Worm Turns make this pretty ugly for Paula, -especially- since Know Thine Enemy 2HKOs her.
Paula vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Outslugs even -before- elem resists and Relm stalling strats come into play.

2-6. Full applies.

Gong (SF1) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - Blood Spear to the rescue.
Gong vs Doll (Saga) - Power Grab utterly trivializes Gong's game.
Gong vs Onix (PKMN) - Pro Screech/Harden strats. Just for fun: before Onix gets his defensive game going, Gong 18HKOs him. =D
Gong vs Palmer (FF7) - Heal 1/2 are saddeningly efficient here.
Gong vs Ward Zaback (FF8) - Gong doesn't ever beat FF8 PCs - or much of any limit fighter ever, really.
Gong vs Guido (G1) - BUT BUT MOGAY BMOB
Gong vs Swordmaster (BD) - This is pretty pathetic, but I think Elfboy's right. Swordmaster gets at least two The Worm Turns off to boot.
Gong vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Pro Relmstalling strats.

2-6. Dat damage, son.

Maribelle (FE13) vs Kain Highwind(FF4) - well sure
Maribelle vs Doll (Saga) - PowerGrab missing isn't particularly more disastrous than the healing it does itself against Maribelle mdef. Or Doll's offense in general. Which is to say she might as well put on a blindfold and light up a cigarette with the embers from the Bolganones she'll eat until she dies.
Maribelle vs Onix (PKMN) - 35% PC HP against magic, Onix? -Really-?
Maribelle vs Palmer (FF7) - Yeah, I'm not sure Palmer's even -average- speed, let alone above average.
Maribelle vs Ward (FF8) - This is pretty depressing. Stop giving FF8 Lights 2HKO damage, Maribelle.
Maribelle vs Guido (G1) - If you're a below average speed physical fighter and fail to 2HKO Maribelle of the sub 0.50 pdur, you utterly deserve to lose.
Maribelle vs Swordmaster (BD) - Before Swine.
Maribelle vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Elemental resistances, faster, the end.

4-4. The slugfesting is Paula-level before you factor in mdef and counters. And man, do those make a difference in this range of Light.

Frederick (FE13) vs Kain Highwind (FF4) - Welp.
Frederick vs Doll (Saga) - Pretty much the reverse of Maribelle. Doll may not double, but she certainly doesn't have to.
Frederick vs Onix (PKMN) - Pro Screech strats redux.
Frederick vs Palmer (FF7) - ST magical damage? Fred runs for the hills.
Frederick vs Ward Zaback (FF8) - Welp. Ward kinda 1.5-rounds Fred and he certainly doesn't get 3HKOed.
Frederick vs Guido (G1) - So not tiebreaking for Guido unknowns.
Frederick vs Swordmaster (BD) - Nothing Ventured/Know Thine Enemy. Sigh.
Frederick vs Relm Arrowny (FF6) - Yeah.

1-7. Sigh.

[SnowFire]

Elf/Jo'ou: Puny nitpicking, I know, and said it already in my writeup, but...  Swordmaster, really?  Sure, Valk Mari / Fred lose if they attack into SM, but SM loses if she attacks into Mari / Fred.  Whoever goes first loses.  So...  nobody does anything ever, and there isn't even any damage-done tiebreak, and both FE & SM use counter-strats in-game vs. enemies, so there isn't a good holistic tiebreak either.  So...  draw / they both lose.  IIRC Elf uses the "force both sides to attack each other" method to break up such stallfests, and SM loses *even harder* at this than when she pushes alone, since Mari keeps her counters while SM loses hers.  Not really seeing what SM's winning strategy is here - at 3BP w/ Redoubled Effort, SM's physical (w/ crits included!) deals .047 PCHP damage, w/ a 25% chance of double-attack.  That is *awful* and does not scare even frail Valk Mari, so yeah, SM just dies to magic counterattacks.

To be sure, SM can effectively force many opponents to attack into her with a strategy along the lines of "95% of turns, counterstance; 5% of turns, Default", then switch the Defaults to 5% 'attacks' once she hits 3 BP.  This will eventually grind an opponent without counters, regen, or buffs out if they don't attack into her.  It just doesn't work here.

[VySaika]

I think the difference here, at least for me, is that Swordmaster setting up his counter IS taking an action. It's something unique to him instead of just a passive system thing like it is for the FE chars. Yeah, they both want to sit there and force the other to play into counters, but SM is actually taking an action to do such while the FE chars are standing there spamming "end turn".

[Dark Holy Elf]

I pretty much echo Gate's thoughts, here. I'd force Maribelle/Frederick to stop sitting around staring before I forced Swordmaster to give up taking an action which is unique to her. The "force both to attack" tiebreak is for when neither side is doing anything (or at least, not doing anything useful, e.g. I wouldn't give credit for a 0-MP cost cure-poison ability as "doing something" in a situation like this).

Obviously this is totally arbitrary tiebreaking of stalled matches so do what you will!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

See NEB and Gate, pretty much. I do have a couple different and specific caveats, of course, like tiebreaking counterstances -against- bosses if they have them and they lead to an infinite stall match. But that choice of mine is more about a personal attempt to balance out the fact that systemic interps historically favor bosses in the DL as is, so I generally give them no respect checks out of pure holistic choices.

[superaielman]

Taloon (DQ4) vs True Wetall (XG)- Taloon is Cristo without a skillset. He is really, really bad. I think True Wetall's speed tips the fight?
Taloon vs Zieg (LoD)- Faster.
Taloon vs Gobi (BoF1)- I... think Taloon just manages the 5HKO here.
Taloon vs Clive (RS)- Can't break Clive's healng.
Taloon vs Mustadio (FFT)- Mustadio somehow less pathetic.
Taloon vs Axem Pink (SMRPG)
Taloon vs Olivia (FE13)- She has better offense. Amazing. Also doubles. Yeesh.
Taloon vs Gogo (FF6)- Goes first and kind of registers on the damage scale? Taloon offense is so bad that it can't fully take advantage of Gogo Pdur. I... don't think Taloon can scrape up a 4HKO here and Gogo surely has no worse than a 5HKO.
Taloon vs Rufus (FF7)- Speed trumps slightly better offense.
Taloon vs Kogoro (S3)- 5HKO. Freeze might screw with things but not by that much.
Taloon vs Ramus (Lunar)- Kneejerk.