Team Draft Tourney Thing

[Tide]

This came up in chat yesterday and I wanted to make sure it didn't get lost so I'm making a topic here. I don't think I will be the one running this, but it is a team tourney so maybe at some point if we ever figure out the logistics.

Anyway, the basis of this tournament came off the idea about who the best theoretical support team members are in the traditional team match setting. FYI, this traditional set up is 1 person from each of the DL's 4 divisions (so 1 Godlike, 1 Heavy, 1 Middle and 1 Light). Now obviously, who you want for support is different depending on which Godlike you have and who you're going up against. Tidus (if he is accepted as a Heavy) was pretty much considered a lock for Heavy but if you're going up against Lady, his game and benefits are completely spoiled. So then SnowFire brought this idea up: Let's run a draft and to figure this out.

I am onboard for this and I think NEB, Magic and CK were as well. So I'm sure there is more interest. The problem is the logistics. There's a few problems with running a true draft though for the following reasons:

1) Most drafts that I'm aware of remove the person selected so the same person cannot be picked twice. This poses an issue if we run it completely on the forum because it will make topics very long and take a very long time. So instead, I think the draft process should be done on IRC.

2) Most drafts also swap the positions after each cycle or revolution. What I mean by this is that, if person A got first pick in the first round of the draft, then person B would get the first pick next and person A would become last in the second round. This is done because having the first pick gives you a pretty big advantage. The problem here is actually two things. The first is that doing this resolution, person 5 and 6 (assuming there's that many people) will never get the first choice. Which obviously sucks

3) The second is that, I think we can all agree that having the first choice in Godlike is probably more important than having the first choice in Light. I honestly don't know how to work around this.

Since this is more "determine the best theoretical team" as opposed to being head to head, I think the opposing teams that the drafts should go up against are Hatbotted teams as well as past teams in the DL proper. My solution IMO, is that the draft be done in a similar style to the List tournament. Then after the voting period, everyone takes their first ranked person in each division and that becomes his/her team. In the event of a tie, "first come first serve" seems to be the best rule (if nothing else it gets people's votes in without whipping!) but again, this isn't perfect.

Any thoughts on this so we can get one running? It would be different and again, a lot of people last night were interested.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, the goal would be to be fast & fun, so IRC would be preferred to drafting over a week.

2) Most drafts also swap the positions after each cycle or revolution. What I mean by this is that, if person A got first pick in the first round of the draft, then person B would get the first pick next and person A would become last in the second round. This is done because having the first pick gives you a pretty big advantage. The problem here is actually two things. The first is that doing this resolution, person 5 and 6 (assuming there's that many people) will never get the first choice. Which obviously sucks

Nooot quite.  Have you played Settlers of Catan, or familiar with Rotisserie drafts in Magic?  It's the same as that.  So the draft goes
12345678876543211234567887654321

So the 1st pick is 1st/16th/17th/32nd, the 2nd pick is 2nd/7th/9th/15th/18th/31st, etc.  This usually ends up close to balanced.

NOT (the impression I got from this):
12345678234567813456781245678123
(this would indeed be biased)

3) The second is that, I think we can all agree that having the first choice in Godlike is probably more important than having the first choice in Light. I honestly don't know how to work around this.

I can think of at least 2 non-Tidus non-Godlikes I'd be happy to 1st pick, and even if so, eh, that's just a quirk of the format then.

I'd be interested in doing the draft but have little interest in a list topic afterwards.  I imagine theorycrafting a few matches between the teams and maybe Hatbot'd teams for control would okay, although if the draft isn't a total disaster or some kind of specific team spoiler, I'd argue that drafted teams should all expect a 90%+ win rate vs. Hatbot'd teams, which will include 'dead' picks like random Fire Emblem dudes who don't shine in a team fight.

Also, I mentioned this before, but CKDL characters are a little wacky due to not having an objective division.  The whole point of a draft is to grab "undervalued" picks that give you the most bang-for-the-buck in each spot.  Like, in the RPGMon tourney a long time ago, I drafted FF9 *Lani* as my Light.  Is Lani OP for Light?  Yes, but she objectively was ranked a Light at the time.  Many of the "best" picks in Light/Middle/Heavy are going to be borderliners that arguably really "should" be in the upper division, but are they?  Who knows, since CKDL is a little more free-flowing about this.  I dunno, maybe use Dhyer's list of CKDL division champions and say that anyone who's won a Light/Middle/Heavy championship has to be nom'd in the higher division?

[Tide]

Nooot quite.  Have you played Settlers of Catan, or familiar with Rotisserie drafts in Magic?  It's the same as that.  So the draft goes
12345678876543211234567887654321

So the 1st pick is 1st/16th/17th/32nd, the 2nd pick is 2nd/7th/9th/15th/18th/31st, etc.  This usually ends up close to balanced.

No actually. That does make a lot more sense. The only type of draft I've played for an extended period were 7 Wonder drafts which was essentially 1234567234567 etc. so yeah. That solves that issue then.

I'd be interested in doing the draft but have little interest in a list topic afterwards.  I imagine theorycrafting a few matches between the teams and maybe Hatbot'd teams for control would okay, although if the draft isn't a total disaster or some kind of specific team spoiler, I'd argue that drafted teams should all expect a 90%+ win rate vs. Hatbot'd teams, which will include 'dead' picks like random Fire Emblem dudes who don't shine in a team fight.

Well the point was to kind of finding out what the best theoretical support could be. If we can do a proper draft, then the list isn't really necessary. But we would need something to compare it to. I'm not a huge fan of making it head to head since I think there would be definitive meta-gaming. I'm thinking more about a team that should win more often than not versus a team that just needs to win against the present competition. So comparing it to bot'd teams or past DL proper teams is fine with me. If everyone wants head to head instead, I won't really object to the idea though.

The whole point of a draft is to grab "undervalued" picks that give you the most bang-for-the-buck in each spot.  Like, in the RPGMon tourney a long time ago, I drafted FF9 *Lani* as my Light.  Is Lani OP for Light?  Yes, but she objectively was ranked a Light at the time.  Many of the "best" picks in Light/Middle/Heavy are going to be borderliners that arguably really "should" be in the upper division, but are they?

 

I'm not quite sure I follow? I agree that the "best" picks might be borderliners, but the thing is, the main DL and even CKDL overlook important abilities that are sometimes not relevant to team matches. In this case, wouldn't picking people that are not borderliners accomplish what you're saying as the purpose of the draft ie: taking those that have more theoretical net value? Also, team synergy can play a big part too in how you end up drafting so I don't know if you really need to restrict this so that champs must be nom'd in a higher division.

[DjinnAndTonic]

This kinda reminds me of the time someone (Snowfire?) did a Division Tournament theory. Where it was basically the Entire Division of Heavy VS the Entire Division of Middle in a giant team match brawl for each of the division pairings. It ended up really showcasing lots of initiative moves that normally mean nothing in the duels. So stuff like Aika's magic nulling or Jane's Follow Me would be the go-to Middles and Lights. There's probably only a handful of Middles or Lights to even bother looking at. Might as well just pull up that old topic and make a list to make Drafting easier.