Author Topic: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!  (Read 781 times)

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« on: September 17, 2016, 05:01:08 AM »
Here we go.  Reminder that there isn't actually a tournament, just a space to talk about how your team would likely do.  If everybody thinks their team would 7-0 the others, that's great!

Tide
Lady (SH3), Auron (FFX), Yulie (WA4), Persian (PKMN)

SnowFire
Reicher (MK2), Tidus (FFX), Eiko (FF9), White Mage (BD)

Pyro
Belial (WA4), Lassic (PS4), Yukiko (P4), Tia (L4ufia 2)

superaielman
Ghaleon (Lunars), Jowy (S2), Hero (Lufia 1), Zozma (SaGa Frontier)

CmdrKing
XORN!!! (G3), Demi (PS4), Hellion (S1), Nei (S3)

Reiska
Zophar (Lunar 2), Zidane (FF9), Tengaar (Suikos), Performer (BD)

DarkHolyElf
Fou-Lu (BoF4), Levin (WAXF), Warlock (S4), Jane Maxwell (WAACF)

AndrewRogue
Brahms (VPs), Pamela Ibis (MK), Aika (SoA), Beecham (S3)


Tide has got Lady, who blows up your whole team when she gets a turn.  Persian will Fake Out one of your fast characters off pretty good initiative, Auron also has initiative and can either Power/Magic Break someone dangerous enough to try and kill Lady first, or else just use Sentinel to troll & draw single-target attacks.  Yulie has a guardian protecting her in more than once sense, and has MT healing & revival off Material, as well as Turn Shift if the battle goes long.

SnowFire has Tidus, and that means Tidus problems.jpg.  Hastega + Slowga makes the turnsplit worse by 4x, and Delay Buster becomes a threat once the gap is large enough to lock characters out of turns entirely.  Reicher is just a fast & durable beatstick that threatens to Break even bosses with enough Remote Blades.  Eiko & WM provide dual revivers, with free auto-revives off Conservation of Life & (potentially) Rebirth Flame.  They can also take a page from Andy's book and throw up Reflect on the team - Eiko has Reflect-Null so doesn't particularly care and can heal away.   Eiko's got okay MT offense, too.  The team is not a huge fan of Holy-wallers, though, with 3x characters whose best damage is Holy elemental.

Pyro's got Belial of the ludicrous speed.  Even if she dies fast, it's hard to stop her from 4D Pocketing 2 characters.  And death is such a transitory thing when Yukiko can throw out full revives when not burning everyone with MT fire damage.  Lassic provides the slugging muscle, and Tia has MT status and solid healing off great speed.

super has the ultimate cleanup crew in Ghaleon.  He might not be fast, but he brings multi-acted damage of all types, instant death, and has immense tankiness to survive to his turn.  Of course surviving to his turn is easier when everyone without stun / flinch immunity skipped their turn against Zozma's initiative SharpPain.  Also Jowy really hurts a lot, and there's some red-haired guy there too.

CK has arguably the "fairest" team; no goofy initiative nonsense, just really fast doomy beatdown.  Nei buffs with Song of Madness, Demi OHKO's your team, so sorry.  Oh and some XORN guy too.  Hellion's got utility and the endlessly annoying Copper Flesh to play protect-the-reviver with.

Reiska has the mighty Zophar, now with buffs!  That seems fair.  Both Zophar itself & Zidane have some quick status to use when that's needed, Zengaar has MT damage or Canopy Defense, and Zerformer can give Zophar a triple turn for turn 2, which is basically gg if it happens.  More realistically, 2x Speed buff & 1x BP granting will probably be plenty sufficient to seal the fight.

DarkHolyElf.  Well.  Jane uses Follow Me at initiative speed, Astral uses Soul Rend for MT HP-1, Warlock uses Earthquake, lol all your gravity-vulnerable characters are now dead.  Then Levin Turn Cancels your Godlike boss (unless they're super-evasive or have multiple parts).  For Turn 2 & onward, Levin will now cancel all your turns while Elf plays with his food by slowly shooting you to death with Jane's gun.  If you want a picture of the future as foreseen by the future dragon, imagine a tonfa stamping on a human face - forever.

AndrewRogue has some fine gouda.  Brahms & Pamela are phys-immune, Aika's initiative Delta Shield cancels magic this turn, and if you can't murder Beecham with physicals quickly enough, Silent Lake will shut you out of magic for the next 4 turns, too.  That's a lot of Bloody Curses to survive.  If Andy doesn't fear your magic, he can just have Aika bop you over the head with a Swirlmarang, which is very confusing I hear.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« Reply #1 on: September 17, 2016, 05:04:59 AM »
Totally optional bonus content!

Okay, the idea behind the draft was to draft against each other so that it's sorta objective.  However, rando-challenges against the unknown are interesting.  Here are some enemy teams that might be fun to theorycraft against.  The idea is that you see how many dudes you can take on before your team fails.  If you beat 4 dudes, great!  Try adding a 5th, left-to-right.  So, for example, the idea is you start with just the first character listed, then the first two, the first three, etc.   Their team grows larger and larger until your team loses, or we just declare you the winner.

Note that this is NOT a proxy of how "good" your team is, since it favors certain types of teams for being able to destroy 7+ enemies.  Think of it like Magic The Gathering decks; an aggro red deck might be really really good at killing enemies at 20 life, but runs into trouble against a 40 life handicap.  A control deck doesn't like 40 life, it gives them more time to draw outs, but it isn't so bad.  And a combo deck doesn't care at all; either they get their infinite combo off and win, or they don't and lose.  It's the same here, you really want some cheesy I win combo if you want to face hordes of opponents and still win.

PCs superhero teamup!
Yu Narukami (P4), Fang (FF13), Cloud (FF7), Arnaud (WA4), Lucina (FEA), Latias (PKMN), Jessica (DQ8), T260G (Saga Frontier), PC Magus (CT), Vayne (MK)

The Boss Rush
Airy (BD), PROTOTYPE GEAR!!1! (WA4), Violetta (G3), Kuja (FF9), Deathevans (BoF2), Zog (BoF1), Yunalesca (FFX), False Althena (L2)

Power Picker - Drafts the highest undrafted character in each division by old DL ranks
Myria (BoF3), Wren (PS4), Rudy (WA), Blastoise (PKMN), Ryu (BoF3), Lloyd (LoD), Albel (SO3), Gares (OB), Jenna Angel (DDS), Malik (WA3)

Modnar - Drafts totally randomly among undrafted characters
Angelo (DQ8), Erim (Lufias), Guy Cecil (TotA), Jade (BoF1), Alex (Lunar), Izlude Tingel (FFT), Songi (Legaia), Valter (FE8), Rafa Galthana (FFT), Serph (DDS), Ramirez (Skies), Richard (S5),
Hiro (Lunar2)

(n.b.: Modnar attempted to draft Ellen Kirishima & Yukimaru, but they aren't CKDL ranked!  tsk.)

Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1374
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2016, 09:41:15 AM »
Pulling an all nighter cause I have to drive people to the airport, so hey, I had some idle time. From what I am aware of, I'm pretty certain I beat Andy's team (Team Brahms) but also fairly certain I lose to NEB's team (Team Fou-Lu). The rest are all ???? but I anticipate something like a 4-3. Could be as low as 2-5.

It would be nice to evaluate picks in other ways, but this is definitely a start. I actually waffled the most on Heavy/Middle picks since there were quite a few good Heavys in the team format still that nobody ended up picking. Geno and Berserk come to mind. I settled on Auron though due to RICHARD tactics with Cloud cover strats back in the Dungeon days, despite both him and Yulie having a very bad stat spread.

Funnily enough, the more I look at the drafted teams, the more I see everything being decided mostly by those that have initiative. First Strike apparently really good. Whowouldathunk?
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« Reply #3 on: September 17, 2016, 06:10:55 PM »
My team!  Okay, main things to note:
* Some of Reicher's best damage is HP-locked, so he's mildly nerfed if there isn't enough MT damage flying around to knock him down a bit.  I'm not an MK2 expert, but bosses can be Broken, right, it just takes way more effort than randoms?  I'd probably assume that Reicher *can* break enemy bosses but it just takes like 4x the amount of work to break an MK2 PC.  I don't think it matters too much anyway.
* Tidus will be running Sonic Steel all the time OFC.  I personally would usually see Tidus's initiative as better than turn-based initiative.  That said, Delay Buster probably doesn't knock fast characters all the way back to turn 2, which is trouble against the likes of Jane or Zozma.
* Eiko has got ~.50 PCHP MT damage in Madeen for clearing out groups, or can use Carbuncle for Reflect + Protect on the team.  (For a mere 2 turns, granted, but that may be enough.)  Aside from usual white mage MT healing & MT revival, note that there's a ~38% chance of free Rebirth Flame on party after wipe if you farmed up 99 Phoenix Pinions.  Which...  I have no idea how feasible that is!  Been too long.  Dhyeeeeeeeeeeer??
* BD White Mage can surge out Holies or Epic Multi-cast Aerogas if blitzing, or do usual white mage nonsense if not.  Note that Conservation of Life is a one-shot auto-revive for the team (but not herself) on WM's death.

CK & Reiska's teams are vaguely fair, so I set up the evil turn count and dump Madeens & Holy physicals on them before they move and probably do enough damage that even once Xorn/Zophar start getting turns, it can't deal with Hasted revivers undoing the damage.

Tide...  well, I'll settle for an opening Slowga against most, while Reicher will skip Perfect Barrier kthx.  Auron...  hmm, either Power Breaking Reicher or using Sentinel are both legit; both make it tougher to pressure Yulie.  Persian cancels Eiko's turn.  Reicher will put on some nerfed pressure (either hitting Auron or Yulie for half damage), Tidus starts Quick Hit'ing, but presumably Slow-immune Lady is gonna get a turn.  HOWEVER!  The auto-revives on BD WM make this not so bad as usual, and in fact this is great if Lady blows her full Stock only to see my team revived for free afterward.  I think she needs to pop the revives rather than slow-roll, though, because BD WM will just heal the damage if she doesn't spend the Stock.  So...  Lady blows up my PCs and knocks Reicher into limit range, then my team comes back except WM.  Yulie can sorta undo the Slowga with Quicken, but I think she'll be busy doing other things, and while Lady is recovering from the Stock spend, even nerfed Reicher can do work once his good attacks have opened up.  It's possible that Lady will get her 2nd turn before the cleanup has finished, but if Reicher has been healed back up, that's okay, Power-Broke Reicher can still take Lady once her support is out and she doesn't have Stock.  Close one though.  (One of the matches I really wanted BD WM for.)

Pyro...  hmm.  Opening Hastega & Perfect Barrier, Belial 4D Pockets Tidus.  However my team is now ~200% speed so Belial only gets 1 Pocket, and Eiko using Madeen would be super-bad (kill or horribly wound Belial for free depending on HP respect), so maybe she 4D Pockets Eiko instead?  Anyway, if she gets Tidus, MT damage storm off Madeen (~0.50 PCHP) & 4x Epic Group Cast Aeroga (~.35 PCHP) which should off Yukiko & Tia, even through Yukiko's auto-revive, and if it doesn't, Reicher finishes the job on them.  Lassic can't solo.  If Belial 4D Pockets Eiko instead, Tidus will resolve Slowga while Reicher bops Belial off.  This is...  probably more interesting, because now Tia might resolve MT Sleep which would be extremely horrible even if the turnsplit is ludicrously bad.  Still, 4x action Reicher can probably start dropping Timed Spheres everywhere to bust past Yukiko's healing and break some dudes, and if the fight stalls the allies will pop back out of the 4D Pockets.  It's close, but I *think* I'll still win, unless Sleep hits both the PC survivors, and even then Rebirth Flame can hax out a victory.  (Also, Lassic is holy-weak, and this doesn't matter at all, because Belial & Yukiko absolutely have to die first, lest full-healing & revival entirely undo the work!)

super...  is rough, unless Delay Buster is seen as so potent as to knock Zozma straight back to turn 2.  Also interp split on Stun = skip your next turn (good for me, I'm going to have multiple turns all on SaGa Frontier turn 1) vs. "skip all turns, duration is 1 SaGa Frontier turn" (RIP).  Anyway, Tidus will Hastega and wish Reicher well on his quest to 1v4.  This is actually...  not totally impossible...  with Reicher's ludicrous offense, except Hasted.  Red Haired Hero needs to die first 'cuz of the full-healing & revival he's packing, then Zozma to unlock the rest of the party, and that means eating a turn of Jowy + Ghaleon offense, which is gonna HURT.  Ghaleon just unloads tons of MT and it's bad times.  Hmm.  If Team super uses lots of MT & splash, then Reicher can unleash a buffed Lightsword Wave to finish off the PCs, then fight a duel with Ghaleon where he starts at half life, but double speed.  If Team super intentionally lays off Reicher to try to focus the rest of the team, then his damage is slower, but so is mine; I suspect that by turn 2 (~3 Reicher turns), Remote Blades will burn through Red-Haired Hero, while the rest of my team is dead from Ghaleon + Jowy offense.  However, this time Reicher has full HP & is hasted.  It's a pretty good fight!  Really dunno, suspect that varying Reicher respect can take it either way.

Andy's cheese mostly doesn't work here.  Open with Slowga before Delta Shield (or heck, even if you see Delta Shield beating Tidus's initiative, opening Hastega is still fine), throw in Hastega as well, Beecham does not live to cast Silent Lake, Aika does not live to turn 2.  Dual revivers & dual status curers so whatever damage Brahms & Aika do on their turn 1 is undone, magic storm takes 'em out on turn 2.  Eiko is really the only source of damage here in the cleanup phase, but 4x turns Eiko can handle it.

Elf, well, do you feel lucky, punk?  Definitely part of why I wanted auto-revives.  Eiko nulls Earth is the good news, so Slowga -> Perfect Barrier -> Follow Me -> Soul Rend -> EQ, Conversation of Life procs and revives Tidus & Eiko, Levin kills the revived Eiko.  I have a Reicher who ate 1 Earthquake and a Tidus at ~1/3 HP, BUT Elf's team is slow'd, barring maybe Fou.  The revived Tidus should get in before Slow'd Jane's 2nd Follow Me (or Slow'd Levin), so he drops Haste on Reicher, and...  good luck, Reicher!  Elf doesn't really have any healing, but Cancel Strike is a little less bad than usual due to Hastega + Slowga.  I want to say that even with outnumbered, Reicher should be able to take down Levin & Warlock easily enough with Timed Spheres & the turnsplit, but the duel against Fou-Lu is going to be problematic, since by the time Reicher can start focusing him he'll have eaten at least 1, maybe 2 Earthquakes, and whatever damage Fou could throw at him.  And Fou halves Holy damage and is really resistant to Reicher's normal physicals anyway.  This is *probably* an Elf win but not open & shut, superspeed Reicher is a thing.  And of course there's still hoping for Rebirth Flame hax which is basically a sure win if it procs since Elf doesn't have healing, so Round 2 is gonna go way better than Round 1 if Reicher managed to off anyone at all.


For the bonuses...

PCs:
No Hassou Tobi hype from me for Yu, but he's really busted anyway with both Light & Physical resistance options, and is a major problem for my team.  My team also kinda sucks at chipping around Cloud.  Anyway, ideally I want something like Hastega / Slowga into 2x Madeens to clear out the scrubs, but Yu will be living through it and Cloud will get a free Limit, and Yu has that free auto-revive at full.  So yeah, it's more like 1x Madeen -> oops Eiko got Cross-Slashed in the face.  I'm not even sure if BD Esunaga will heal Stop.  I suspect I'm stuck on 4x PCs at most, by the time Lucina gets thrown in there's too much stuff going wrong that my party is gonna get wiped, then Reicher overwhelmed by Yu BS.

Bosses:
Airy is actually not THAT bad in a teamfight due to her damage unfocusing.  And Prototype Gear will die fast, at least, resolving at most one attack.  Violetta wants to stat-nerf a character, but I should get the drop on her due to Tidus, and she becomes an enemy #1 to kill first, but we're still fine.  Kuja adds some pressure now that Flare Star + Zeta Flare might KO my party and make me want to play defensively, which makes it harder to blitz, which makes it easier for Prototype Gear or Violetta to get another turn which is bad, but I can probably still handle it.  Evans is probably around where things breakdown, now there's just too many threats to handle and too much damage coming in.  So...  another ~4x, I think.

Power Picker:
Mentioned this in chat, but the size 4 Power Picker team gets *rolled* by every team drafted, so yeah.  Adding Ryu won't really help, he's still not surviving to get a turn, and everyone else is too ignorable with Carbuncle wrecking Myria and Blastoise w/ Reflect, and providing Protect to halve Rudy & Wren's damage.  Lloyd, however, is actually kinda bad!  Wingly Sphere being a free-counter that's arguably psuedomagic, not magic, means it probably goes through Carbuncle.  I think I can still win, but it's an ugly slugfest.  Albel & Gares don't add much, I guess Albel can go to work on BD WM's MP, but Gares just dies to a breeze.  Jenna Angel is RIP.  So...  5-8x, depending on if Lloyd tips the scales or not.  Call it 8x due to some potential hax in my favor.

Modnar:
Erim is 3x holy vulnerable LOL.  Angelo is quite threatening if he ever gets a turn thanks to Kathwack, so he's gotta die, but that's quite doable thanks to Haste.  Why does the priest have better death than the Sinistral of Death....  we'll never know.  Guy doesn't matter.  Jade...  now we're talking, he can mess someone up once his turn rolls around, and won't be taken out quickly.  Still, dual revivers + FF9 elemental nonsense mean I'm not too concerned.  Alex - hmm.  We're getting to the point where Eiko can't safely rushdown with Madeen and needs to use Carbuncle after all to stave off reflectable spells like BoltX & Red Dragon Anger, then probably switch to healing.  Alex is a champion healer for the other team, so it means I have to be more careful with my damage, especially since now it's just Reicher & Tidus who are contributing.  Still, I think I can take it.  Izlude is not TOO bad, Jump damage-surging aside, thanks to Protect from Carbuncle.  Songi, uh, I don't know Legaia, but now the offense might add up to be too much, and once the healers break down, it all falls apart as Reicher can't handle Jade AND support all at once.  So call it 6x.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2016, 06:55:07 PM »
Initative shenanigans are key to these fights, so some of it will depend on views.

CTB first strike: Auron, Tidus
TB initiative: Persian's Fake Out, Zozma's Sharp Pain, Zophar's Status Ball (and a couple other moves), Jane's Follow Me, Aika's Delta Shield
Super-fast (~2x average speed or more): Turns granted by Tidus' Hastega, Belial's first turn, Xorn's first turn

Tidus/Auron rather inarguably are the "fastest" (and they do nothing to influence each other's first turn, so no need for a tiebreak there), but beyond that it can get murky.

Zophar's initiative feels worse than most of the rest, as it can be beaten by other initiatives in Lunar EBC. Jane's is apparently worse than Accelerator but better than... something else I'm blanking on. Fake Out is tied with a bunch of other initiatives in Pokemon Gen 4 (though was moved to a higher tier in more recent games), but Pokemon uses speed for initiative tiebreaks and thus the very fast Persian probably deserves a fair bit of respect. Zozma... Saga Frontier has a fuckton of initiative moves (gunners have it for everything, for instance) so it's relatively less common and hypable, though still probably better than Zophar's to me. I don't know Skies well enough to comment on that, someone else could weigh in.

I think this breaks down as Persian > Jane > Zozma > Zophar, with Aika in the ??? zone.

Finally there are the fast CTB moves. I tend to view all the people I mentioned as outspeeding TB intiative but your milage may definitely vary. This makes my respect for Tidus in this setting super-high of course.

Fun times. I'll look at individual matches later.


Ninja'd by Snowfire post, so a few random replies:


Quote
Also interp split on Stun = skip your next turn (good for me, I'm going to have multiple turns all on SaGa Frontier turn 1) vs. "skip all turns, duration is 1 SaGa Frontier turn" (RIP)

It's the latter, Saga has enemies who take multiple actions per round and stun removes all of them. Its big weakness is that it has no effect on any actions earlier in the round (so a slow stun is useless). Of course, the intersection of the idea of "rounds" and CTB effects is indeed a weird one, so this certainly isn't open and shut anyway... I myself certainly wouldn't view Zozma as being able to lock down CTB-hasted PCs, but YMMV.

Quote
And of course there's still hoping for Rebirth Flame hax which is basically a sure win if it procs since Elf doesn't have healing

Warlock has a Flowing Rune, so he has lots of healing if not killed (and hey, his high evade makes that not completely trivial?). Jane also has some in Mystic, assuming you allow that, but it requires FP.


As a general thing for your team, remember that haste doesn't speed up timed spheres, but slow (effectively) does, so certainly there are some times where that will be more valuable. Of course most of the bosses in this field immune slow explicitly, so there is a loss there for sure. It's notable against the likes of Jade, though.


Quote
We're getting to the point where Eiko can't safely rushdown with Madeen and needs to use Carbuncle after all to stave off reflectable spells like BoltX & Red Dragon Anger,

Carbuncle doesn't affect Red Dragon Anger, it's a summon! And also always-multitarget, which FF9 reflect never stops (and indeed, most FF reflect statuses block very few if any such spells). FF9 reflect isn't very expansive in what it covers: if it's not a basic standard black/white magic spell, it's not getting reflected; all of Blue/Summon gets through, for instance.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1374
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: DL Draft: Results & theorycraft!
« Reply #5 on: September 20, 2016, 02:47:26 AM »
Right, so theorycrafting is fun. And as the person who brought this idea up, I should probably post some of the analysis that I see. As note, NEB's right in that how you view all the initiative moves matter quite a bit. So there's certainly room for interp along with dealing stuff like how Follow Me would work in a CTB setting. FYI, ACF Follow Me lets you restructure the turn order but I can't think of how this would work in a CTB sense. So I dunno where I stand on that since I have a hard time trying to figure out what it would theoretically look like. Anyway, onward...

Team Lady vs Team Brahms
Lady (SH3), Auron (FFX), Yulie (WA4), Persian (PKMN) vs. Brahms (VPs), Pamela Ibis (MK), Aika (SoA), Beecham (S3)

Andy's cheese is cute, but as I alluded to earlier, I believe I take this one. Assuming that Auron > Aika > Persian on the initiative scale, Auron can probably Break Brahms, but it won't stop the damage from being OHKO territory and he can't hit Pamela, so instead, he probably opts for Sentinel. Aika will Delta Shield, Persian Fake Outs Beecham. Lady still has some Physical stuff so she'll murder Aika when she gets her turn. Brahms will punch Auron and Auron dies. Pamela does something but IIRC she doesn't have anything threatening at high HP. She'll want to stop Yulie from getting a turn though so probably Sleep her since she can block Seal. Next turn, both teams are down a person, but Yulie is faster than average now due to Auron being dead, so she'll get a turn before the others, and there's no Delta Shield coming in, so Yulie gets a turn and Turn Shifts to Lady/Quickens Lady at which point, Lady does her thing and blows apart the whole team before anything else. If you see Persian beating Aika, then it's even worse because now, Delta Shield won't be active Turn 1 so Lady just shrugs and blows up the team Turn 1 instead. Ouch. If you see Yulie wearing two blockers, this is also a win because Pamela can't stop Yulie's 1st turn at which point, death from malice's embrace comes ever the sooner.

Team Lady vs Team Fou Lu
Lady (SH3), Auron (FFX), Yulie (WA4), Persian (PKMN) vs. Fou-Lu (BoF4), Levin (WAXF), Warlock (S4), Jane Maxwell (WAACF)

How you take initiative definitely matters here. I'll first go with what I thought of, which is Auron > Jane > Persian. In this case, my defeat feels certain. Auron gets a turn but can't do anything decisive, unless you buy THREATENING winning an initiative race to slow Follow Me. So Auron can do something, but probably doesn't matter. Then Jane uses Follow Me and boosts her entire team up the cue. As I mentioned before, I don't know how to take the Manual Turns in a CTB setting. But if you do allow it, the Manual turn to set is Fou-Lu -> Warlock -> Levin. Fou-Lu and Warlock murder all my PCs, at which point Levin Cancel Strike spams the Unbral to prevent it from doing anything since its the deadlier part of the two. Lady can do like Ring Abnormality to try and force lost turns on NEB's end, but at this point, she'll be one turn behind the damage race against Fou which is not something she can afford. She'll probably still blow up the entire team sans Fou Lu though.

On the other hand, if you see Persian > Jane, then this is more interesting since Persian can stop Follow Me, which leads to Auron having a more definitive action with using Sentinel to prevent Levin from trying to Cancel Strike down the Unbral. At some point, both Godlikes will get turns and both supports on both ends explode. The major thing which I am not sure in this case is what the gap is between Fou-Lu and the EQ from being cast and whether or not Crisis RFX Yulie has a chance to beat it. Otherwise, I think it's a Fou Lu vs. Lady match but Fou has to give up one turn in this scenario to blow up Lady's support, so that might seal the deal.


PCs superhero teamup!
Yu Narukami (P4), Fang (FF13), Cloud (FF7), Arnaud (WA4), Lucina (FEA), Latias (PKMN), Jessica (DQ8), T260G (Saga Frontier), PC Magus (CT), Vayne (MK)

Yu is a huge headache actually. The big issue is that he can null physicals and dark, then swap personas out. This means that trying to Fake Out him or Power Breaking doesn't work. Worst yet, HT is MT so Sentinel trolling doesn't work. Still, I don't think one base HT is enough to KO Yulie...it's pretty close though I think? Auron gets first strike, but can't really do anything decisive with it off the bat. Persian most likely Fakes Out either Fang or Arnaud. Cloud get turns but can't do anything relevant. Kill Yulie with Bolt 3? Mmm...probably works, I dunno. Anyway, the first 4 can't stop Lady from getting a turn at which point, they explode. Yu may have more than one life, but he can't take out Lady alone. Especially if he has to block Dark to cover against Fake Out. Yoshi was Immune Phys/Light IIRC. So, adding more PCs, does it improve? Well kneejerk is that the stopping point is around where Jessica is. She's fast and in a match like this, Magic Bursting is a great option since it will hit everyone for lots of damage before she gets killed by Lady. It gives Yu that headstart that he would need that he normally wouldn't have if he had to guard against 2 others on my team. Also, with the increased number of PCs, it might start making more sense for Persian to Fake Out Arnaud so the Unbral doesn't eat a Slow Down.

The Boss Rush
Airy (BD), PROTOTYPE GEAR!!1! (WA4), Violetta (G3), Kuja (FF9), Deathevans (BoF2), Zog (BoF1), Yunalesca (FFX), False Althena (L2)

Well Sentinel mocks Prototype Gear's physical. Auron will survive it, barely and will probably die to a follow up from one of the other bosses. At this point, Yulie gets a turn, and uh...bad things happen in either the form of Quicken'd Lady or Turn Shifting around. Even Protecting Lady goes a long way, but I think the added offense through Quicken is more preferred. I don't suspect the team runs into any trouble until FA. Then, I dunno. I would have to look up some stuff against FA, but as is, I suspect close to a sweep.


Power Picker - Drafts the highest undrafted character in each division by old DL ranks
Myria (BoF3), Wren (PS4), Rudy (WA), Blastoise (PKMN), Ryu (BoF3), Lloyd (LoD), Albel (SO3), Gares (OB), Jenna Angel (DDS), Malik (WA3)

Well, Persian and Auron stop a lot of stuff that could be potentially dangerous. Fake Out against say Ryu3 will delay his turn while Auron can break one of the other more dangerous target's offense, at which point, Lady sweeps. I actually think it might be a full sweep here? Don't know enough about Jenna Angel, but eesh. 

Modnar - Drafts totally randomly among undrafted characters
Angelo (DQ8), Erim (Lufias), Guy Cecil (TotA), Jade (BoF1), Alex (Lunar), Izlude Tingel (FFT), Songi (Legaia), Valter (FE8), Rafa Galthana (FFT), Serph (DDS), Ramirez (Skies), Richard (S5),
Hiro (Lunar2)

Similar to above, I suspect the trouble doesn't really come until say Ramirez since there's more MT stuff at that point. Sentinel shuts down a lot of dangerous stuff and if Persian Fake Outs the dangerous targets (like Jade), it almost ensures Lady will get a turn and possibly Yulie too. At which point *crush*. Probably another sweep I think unless Alex/Songi/Hiro have MT physicals. Otherwise, Sentinel trolling keeps the pressure away from Lady too well.



« Last Edit: September 20, 2016, 02:57:38 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself