What do you mean spoiler-tagging PCs? Those are their names in-battle
Alright, so how do I view this game:
- I allow everything unique in terms of weapons, and I follow my standard average taking
- Allow all accessories available that can be acquired in multiple quantities; however, I'l assume basic storebought stuff for the purposes of this
- Party member Endure hype is a go
- Allow all Joker personas; Satanael never matters, but he looks cool at least
- Allow Joker complete customization of his personas in terms of skills; given you consider max confidants, the stat min-maxing can get a little frustrating that way, so I ignore it; I'll talk about where he gets without this, just using base personas, for comparison
- Full ammo access, since that is how it works in-game after leaving the battlefield, i.e., the DL Arena however you view that (and can be solved via infiltration tools if needed during a dungeon in-game, so this is fair to me); the DL translation of guns is nuts, but this happens to lots of casts both on the positive and negative side of things
- Direct translation of ailments is...mmm...I'll at least mention where it matters; same with elements, I guess I'll assume, like with persona customization, that equivalent ones between games are...uh...equivalent
Joker vs. Magus (CT) - So...lightning in CT I've heard argued as light elemental before, which might change things a little? Probably not, though. Assuming it's electric...could Magus control his barrier changes? If he can't, Joker goes Shiva (Null Curse/Ice, Repel Electric, has Auto-Mataru and Psychic damage + Maziodyne for his barrier changes, Enduring Soul for another tanking episode). If he can...Shiva is still his best bet, not sure how to take non-aligned magic vs. the barrier since that wasn't something in CT. Can switch to Ishtar (Null Electric, Spell Master + Mediarahan + Insta-Heal) for healing and dealing with GEYSER HYPE (which may actually matter here). This is all for boss Magus - PC Magus gets walled way too hard and runs out of MP. No need for a ton of allowances with personas here, Joker generally has the advantage.
Joker vs.
Exdeath (FF5) - Uh...yeah, Insta-Heal hype doesn't work here, since it doesn't deal with despair in-game, so I probably wouldn't allow it to recover from White Hole. Since there are 5 types of ID in P5...would I consider White Hole bless or curse? If I did, nulling one type of the ailments in White Hole blocked it entirely IIRC, and it can be evaded (with Aegis Shield), so there is some evade hype if needed. Mmm...yeah, this is tough. Granted, even if he makes it past Tree, he has to face Neo-Exdeath (form-chain hype go? I've always allowed that, at least), so...I don't think Joker can survive Grand Cross with the other parts acting. If you take the turn limiters literally, and have lower boss HP respect than me...maybe. But this is a loss.
Joker vs.
Yuna (FFX) - Well, considering I've allowed full weapon customization, and allowing limit bars (including overdrives) and equivalents to start full...Grand Summon Anima, murder through Enduring Soul, have Anima use murderization again. Allowing everything like that makes me thing Yuna's Bluelike, similar to Rogue, so...yeah, she wins.
Joker vs. Terra (FF6) - Minerva...do I allow it? I've gone back and forth, and it does matter here a little. I'll assume it just because the stat topic doesn't not consider it, and I don't feel like mathing it all out. Probably err on not allowing it, as I've gone on in the years (ignoring FF6 Easy Type, where it's clearly illegal), but eh. Joker with Yoshitsune is clearly faster, hell, anything above average is faster, so he gets 1 attack off at least. Probably starts with Yoshitsune, switches to Pisaca for Despair Boost, unloads his gun into her. Any leniency with skill transfer, or allowing the card basically means he does this with Yoshitsune, so evasion hype is a little dead (Pisaca is low enough level that the Ag and Lu are a bit low...buffered a bit with equipment, but...). But I'm overthinking this a bit - Down Shot with Shiva starting (for Auto-Mataru), switch to Yoshitune, kill with Hassou Tobi. Downed targets can't evade, and that's a 50% damage bonus, which should kill her; her defense with Minerva is 1.27x, HP is slightly below average IIRC, so we'll call it 1.25x. Devil's Advocate, if you take the most aggressive average Snowfire posted, where the kill point is 1121, Terra needs 1401 damage to kill her. Hassou Tobi with a 50% buff is 1608...and that's with just Down Shot and not Auto-Mataru bonus, which is easy overkill. There are a number of other ways for Joker to win here, but they require a bit more finesse and interpretation nightmares, so this is a simple victory in at least 2 ways.
Joker vs. Mewtwo (Pokemon) - So...assuming RBY here, Mewtwo has only psychic and normal damage, ignoring HM and TM hype. Normal is...basic physical, probably? Chi You (Null Psychic, Repel Physical) coasts to a win.
Joker vs. Ted (Suikoden 4) - Yeah...tons of curse immunity. For total fun, go Shiva, Null Ice too. Vishnu (Absorb Ice, Null Curse, has Ali Dance for evasion fun) also completely wrecks him, since now his physicals miss half the time. If you allow other runes, it's a bit closer of a fight, but high speed Yoshitsune --> Down Shot --> Hassou Tobi works.
Joker vs.
Isolde Schelling (MK) - Huh. Ok, all magic damage, so not necessarily completely wallable. If you see her magic as not breaking through reflection, then Makarakarn is an auto-win here. Joker can get the first strike, which I think needs to be used on Debilitate (he probably wants to do this off of Michael for better stats). Next turn, switch to Siegfried (has Auto-Mataru and Charge - he uses Charge, gets Auto-Mataru's benefit), who should survive with Debilitate + above average En. Next turn, Hassou Tobi. If he doesn't have the HP for it, switch to Shiva, pro Enduring Soul (or switch to Ishtar and heal), then go for it. That's about 6000 damage, closer to 4000 with Isolde's defenses take into account. That kill to most people. Otherwise...it's tough and tight, he needs to keep Debilitate on, and he'll have to do a lot of switching, and Timed Cards make that hard to deal with. I lean towards Isolde, but less boss HP respect probably gives Joker the win?
Joker vs. Jade (BoF1) - Man, Shiva is coming up a lot here. I should add him to the topic. Shiva blocks Ice and Curse (arguably Rub with the latter...but he also blocks bless, so those are the two main insta-death sources), has Enduring Soul to keep going. The problem here is damage, honestly, since Jade has good physical defenses. Odin (Null Electric, Repel Curse/Bless) has Concentrate and a severe magic skill with an amp, so that may be the best magic damage. This is a fight that Joker really does want flexibility with skill choice - he wins the long fight easily with that by giving Shiva Regenerate 3 and Invigorate 3 (and maybe stacks the level and level 2 versions as well), and then physical beatdown ensues. Or, for even more fun, give Trumpeter Null/Repel/Absorb Phys (the latter of which he can get from Abaddon, a final dungeon shadow, who also does well, albeit he needs Ice and Elec defenses here). Trumpeter then blocks everything Jade can do. It takes about a week, but I think Joker wins this with flexibility, and could get close without it.
Joker vs.
Jenna Angel (DDS) - Ugh. So, Joker has to face 2 Bhairavas at a minimum. Debilitate + Firm Stance can take care of the damage, but he has to set this up, and her other skills, long-term, may take him out with stone or stacked Debilitates. I think she has this, especially if Vanity hits mute or something else nasty. So...yeah, that HP buffering in the first form is sick. This doesn't even count the 3rd form, which Joker handles better, but probably doesn't have a ton of SP for.
Joker vs.
Zophar (Lunar 2) - Yeah...the way I view Zophar, his hands just put up too much pressure. Hell Storm being slow means that Makarakarn is dispelled early, and Rainbow Ball could hit a nasty ailment. Possibly doable with Debilitate + Insta-Heal...no, that's still overkill. He needs Enduring Soul, but he gets hit with more than one, so that's a loss.
Joker vs. Ryu (BoF3) - Joker gets first strike here. Ryu needs to don Protectors or die to despair. Joker goes for Down Shot starting with Shiva out for Auto-Mataru, then switches to Yoshitsune for Hassou Tobi. 2144 physical damage vs. 101.4% HP and 20% physical damage reduction is...dead. I could try to hype insta-death here from Metatron or Alice, but...eh. Not reliable. He doesn't want Ryu to get a turn, unless...wait, Bonebreak was physical? That's...ok. So he needs to weaken Ryu because of Kaiser Breath, and have the ability to block Bless on the 2nd turn because of Aura. Do the strikes work if Joker blocks the physical component? Is it half damage? Probably doesn't matter, honestly. Joker gets 2 shots of something, and that's enough.
Joker vs. TimeLord (SaGa Frontier) - Uh...yeah. Arguably, Hassou Tobi is a short-range physical (see: Riddle Me This boss fight), so...although, TimeLord's boss form is all strike and light? Yoshitsune to the rescue again. He then fights TimeLord with ZIODYNE and probably wins. Switches to Shiva at low HP to proc Enduring Soul. PC form...wait, is it Light or Force,? And how is that? Bleh, that matters. Force...Joker would need to get up Makarakarn, which gets broken by weak stuff. Joker's got the potential, but it depends on if it's complete demolition or a tough fight. Chance of petrify is tough - what did that do again in SaGa Frontier? Instant win? Bleh...giving this to Joker, but the exact specifics matter a bit.
Joker vs. Kyogre (Pokemon) - Hey use for a lower level persona! Start with Shiva, then switch to Michael for Debilitate. Go to Futsunushi for Charge + Regenerate 3 + Firm Stance. Switch to Ishtar for healing if neded. Switch to Yoshitsune for Hassou Tobi. With Shiva's Auto-Mataru, that's 6000-ish damage, 4000 or so without it. Debilitate also nukes Kyogre's accuracy; alternatively, maybe starting with Vishnu is a good idea - deal some damage, rely on Ali Dance to dodge Hydro Pump, deal damage to deal with Waterspout? Sheer Cold is the only thing that might kill here with 30% insta-death, although Lu probably protects him? It's close because the damage is really good on Waterspout - it could be evaded, right? It's tight - water is an element that isn't in P5, so Joker can't just wall it here. Alternatively...is a 1.5x Hassou Tobi enough for a kill from Down Shot? Arguable without skill inheritance, probably an easy win with it.
Joker vs.
T260G (SaGa Frontier) - Uh...ok. So, anything physical, fire, or electric gets walled. Force...is still questionable, but Joker can reduce the damage a lot from T260G if needed. Ailments don't work, unless you take a literal view (I won't for purpose of arguing this). T260G is probably faster, is very durable...Joker has to try to wall this with Enduring Soul and defensive stuff. I don't think he does? Depends on how much walling the non-Force elements does. But...yeah, T260G I think has this without skill inheritance and persona modification, and even then it might get tight.
Joker vs.
Lambda Zellweger (WA4) - Uh...would accuracy/evasion busting hurt Blue Destiny? If it does, Debilitate. Otherwise...Joker has to hope to one-shot, and he doesn't get the first action. Yeah...think this is a loss, unless you have less boss HP respect than me (read: everyone else), and even then, it could get tight.
Joker vs. Rashidi (OB) - Rashidi probably could use more notation, but...Hassou Tobi alone might one-shot, and there's enough walling there that he can't do much about it. Charge and/or Auto-Mataru and/or Debilitate wreck.
Joker vs.
Altima (FFT) - Goddamnit...yeah, Grand Cross, 2 forms, Ultima hurting and probably not being wallable. I think this is a loss. You can argue Debilitate, and some ailments (Rage...is funny), and maybe Makarakarn, but I think there's enough to get through everything Joker has.
Joker vs. Lugia (Pokemon) - Joker could deal with Mewtwo and can probably take Kyogre, and Lugia is not as strong as either. You've seen this before - Debilitate, Down Shot, Auto-Mataru, etc. Flying type damage...is it physical or wind? Combine them? He can wall them either way. Can't wall the Hydro Pump, but Debilitate and/or Ali Dance take care of it.
Joker vs. Emily (Suikoden 3) - Well, if you don't allow runes, Joker runs Arahabaki and laughs as everything Emily does gets reflected back at her (really, Rangda and others work too, but Arahabaki is low level, so it's funnier). With runes...what were Emily's affinities? Wind gets walled, but Pale Gate maybe? Unless you let it get blocked by Curse and/or Bless immunity. Yeah, just...stretching for her here.
Joker vs. Yuri Hyuga (Shadow Hearts) - Mmm...go for despair. Probably Joker's best bet. He can take one For the Children (SH1), but doesn't like the SH2 Mind Assault spam. Down Shot --> Hassou Tobi also works. He easily outspeeds SH2, but SH1 is close. Depends on what you do with the randomness of the persona stat growths - if you scale, it may help Joker. Also what average you take. Joker is probably slower than SH1 Yuri, but that can't kill him, especially if he starts Shiva. Yeah, despair it is, as Hassou Tobi runs into damage preventing him from using it.
Final Count: 12/20Yeah, solid performance. Different views will sway this, but there's enough variety he can handle a lot. Shiva turned out a lot here - should probably add him to the topic.
Skull vs.
Magus (CT)Skull vs.
Exdeath (FF5)Skull vs.
Yuna (FFX)These first 3 are really easy. Magus walls, Exdeath just mauls, and Yuna...yeah.
Skull vs. Terra (FF6) - Minerva makes a huge difference, but it is notable that I'm fairly certain lightning immunity won't prevent shock from his gun (from the zio series, yes). Skull can actually survive an Ultima, but not Break. Having said that, elemental ailments last 2 turns, so shock --> Charge --> God's Hand. If they don't...is Shock --> God's Hand with Tarukaja enough...it is, actually! He can twink himself to get faster, and that's all he needs.
Skull vs. Mewtwo (Pokemon) - Same thing above, except not as fast. Twinks for 1% more durability, takes a hit, shocks, does his thing. Even with short shock duration, it's enough.
Skull vs.
Ted (Suikoden 4) Skull vs.
Isolde Schelling (MK) Skull vs.
Jade (BoF1)Skull vs.
Jenna Angel (DDS)Skull vs.
Zophar (Lunar 2)Yeah...Ted leaves him with not enough HP to use anything. Now...Ted isn't even frail enough to die to 2 Taru'd attacks, so...even with the technical bonus. This is further complicated by shock possibly transferring to Skull. That's his best match here.
Skull vs.
Ryu (BoF3) Skull vs.
TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)Skull vs.
Kyogre (Pokemon)Skull vs.
T260G (SaGa Frontier)Skull vs.
Lambda Zellweger (WA4)Closer than the above set, but...can't outspeed the Kaiser transformation, would be decent if Kaiser didn't have ridiculous physical durability and the ailment resistances. TimeLord boss form mauls. Kyogre is the same story as Ted, same as T260G. Lambda...likely he runs out of HP before landing a killshot.
Skull vs. Rashidi (OB) - Frail enough to die. Were OB bosses susceptible to ailments? That would make this even more pathetic
Skull vs.
Altima (FFT) - If Joker couldn't do it...
Skull vs. Lugia (Pokemon) - Hey, shocking comes back into play.
Skull vs.
Emily (Suikoden 3) - Very close. If you don't let Yellow Scarf block all ailments, then she dies. Otherwise...Karna's Robe gives him more physical resilience, which helps. She has evasion, though, and that probably tips it?
Skull vs. Yuri Hyuga (Shadow Hearts) - Yuri is faster. He actually leaves Skull with enough HP to do God's Hand turn 2...actually, lemme look at this more. For the Children is 90% HP. Skull has 149% maximally twinked. So he dies to 2 of them. Taru'd God's Hand isn't enough by itself...but he can shock. God's Hand then gets its buffs, and things die. Evasion wasn't common enough to be hyped, and For Everyone just gives Skull extra turns. Huh, not what I expected!
Final Count: 5/20Eh...he pulled a bad draw here, but still, probably not Godlike. He is way more wallable than Panther, is the problem. Also, need to test a few more things, like despair's interaction with Endure/Enduring Soul, and double-check the elemental ailment checks.
Panther vs. Magus (CT) - Arghle. Ok, so...Panther has to deal with the PC form's ID as probably the biggest threat here. Tarunda, healing deal with everything else the boss form can use, especially if you allow a SP adhesive. So the PC ID is 50%, but only hits those near Magus...which isn't terribly often. Panther has above average Lu, so that gives her...2 turns, probably? Possibly 3. Magus can don a Ruby Armour to just nerf the fire damage. So, vs. the PC form, Panther needs despair hype (assuming you allow it to pass the Vigil Helms...it's a form of ID, so arguable). Yeah...I'm tempted to give this to Panther because she deals with the boss form and can do well vs. the PC form. Damn tight fight.
Panther vs.
Exdeath (FF5) Panther vs.
Yuna (FFX) Well, these will be clean sweeps for the rest of the cast.
Panther vs. Terra (FF6) - So...Terra can't block Sleep. Panther can get herself faster. 2 rounds of despair shooting does it...or Dormina --> Concentrate --> Blazing Hell. Now...if you don't allow Minerva, that latter option is very easy. If you allow Minerva, she has to rely on the despair to kill...although, wait, Fire Break. Hah, found a possible use for it! Yeah, Panther overall actually wins this one.
Panther vs. Mewtwo (Pokemon) - Dormina, or possibly despair spam backed with Tarunda and Diarahan.
Panther vs. Ted (Suikoden 4) - Where Skull failed due to his lack of...anything after losing HP, Panther survives a hit, Dormina, murder.
Panther vs.
Isolde Schelling (MK) - Yeah...if Joker has problems, Panther will too.
Panther vs.
Jade (BoF1) - So...if it weren't for Rub, Panther would win this. She halves electric, and Tarunda turns that into a very survivable attack. Diarahan as needed, Concentrate Agidyne to save SP, victory. Damn you Rub!
Panther vs.
Jenna Angel (DDS)Panther vs.
Zophar (Lunar 2)Panther vs.
Ryu (BoF3)Panther vs.
TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)These are pretty self-explanatory
Panther vs. Kyogre (Pokemon) - Dormina hax again. Loves that Kyogre doesn't have ice, although evasion helps overall here.
Panther vs.
T260G (SaGa Frontier)Panther vs.
Lambda Zellweger (WA4)Same problem the rest of the cast has had...
Panther vs. Rashidi (OB) - Sukukaja + Evade Ice = fun. Tarunda + Diarahan does its stuff. You could even argue Rashidi is ailment-susceptible, so...
Panther vs.
Altima (FFT) - Yeah...same problem as everyone else
Panther vs. Lugia (Pokemon) - Same story, morning glory...Dormina then NUKE.
Panther vs. Emily (Suikoden 3) - Well...those yellow scarves. Without them, Panther wins. It's possible she dodges enough that she can Tarunda --> Diarahan --> Concentrate --> Blazing Hell, though...mmm...and actually...allowing other runes pushes the damage average up enough that Panther...yeah. Huh. Skull, you suck!
Panther vs.
Yuri Hyuga (Shadow Hearts) - The one ailment SH can't block...Mind Assault causes problems, but it's not a full drain, so...
Final Count: 8/20Wow, better than I expected. That skillset is win. A little more speed or durability would really push her over the edge, but as-is...solid performance. Still Heavy to me, but champ material.
Queen vs. Magus (CT) - Hahahaha. Yeah, curse resistance more than offsets the lower Lu...and Judge of the Dead makes that nearly non-existent. PC form just can't kill her. Boss form...loses to punches. SP Adhesive is nice, but not necessary.
Queen vs.
Exdeath (FF5)Queen vs.
Yuna (FFX)No surprises here...
Queen vs.
Terra (FF6)Well, she's the one who has trouble with Terra, and it's tight. I think I actually give it to Terra, since Queen needs everything to go her way. She's faster by default, but wants a turn 1 killer ailment (brainwash is turn 2, same with forget and fear). Shock is turn 1, but...well, if it lasts 2 turns, then it's a win, 1 turn and it's not, then Terra Drains or Breaks. And Queen needs Judge of the Dead to resist the Breaks. Bleh, this is probably Terra's match. Stat dominance can only get you so far.
Queen vs. Mewtwo (Pokemon) - Evade Psy to the rescue! Defensive hype otherwise. She has the roughest fight here of the group, but still manages to win it. Judge of the Dead is the best choice here.
Queen vs. Ted (Suikoden 4) - There is no way this ends well for Ted. High defenses, and already halves curse. Breath of Ice is not winning this one.
Queen vs.
Isolde Schelling (MK)Queen vs.
Jade (BoF1)Queen vs.
Jenna Angel (DDS)Queen vs.
Zophar (Lunar 2)Yeah...about what you'd expect.
Queen vs.
Ryu (BoF3) - A lot closer than I expected. I generally kneejerk to Ryu, here, but Queen may be able to do it. Just...mmm...Queen survives Bonebreak, Ryu really needs to take her down twice, which is hard to do. He just may have too much pressure on her. Protector hype is necessary, and Queen could out-last his AP. This is tight...again, giving it to Ryu, since I think it's a coinflip either way.
Queen vs.
TimeLord (SaGa Frontier) - Yep
Queen vs.
Kyogre (Pokemon) - Like with Terra, Queen needs a lot to go her way here. Kyogre having healing makes it tough (she can't 2-shot through Rest, I think). Judge of the Dead keeps her alive, but she has trouble killing.
Queen vs.
T260G (SaGa Frontier)Queen vs.
Lambda Zellweger (WA4)Pretty standard here...
Queen vs. Rashidi (OB) - Mmm...she may need an ailment for this, assuming you let Rashidi get hit by them. She evades enough probably to win it, but it's close.
Queen vs.
Altima (FFT) - As per usual, die Altima!
Queen vs. Lugia (Pokemon) - Same as Mewtwo, really, just more durability to punch through
Queen vs. Emily (Suikoden 3) - Healing and punching to victory~
Queen vs.
Yuri Hyuga (Shadow Hearts) - So Queen needs an ailment, but needs Judge of the Dead. Yuri Mind Assaults her to death.
Final Count: 6/20Was expecting her to be sub-Skull, but that combination is awesome enough. Skull has damage, but nothing else, whereas the variety is what wins it for the others. A Heavy, but solid enough.
