RPGDL 2017 Season 2, Week 4

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III)
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)

Data Mine

What games would you like added to the Data Mine for future tournament consideration?

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV) - Orgulla needs the first turn to shift into Manes Mode and the second turn to activate A Pound of Flesh in order to turn Rubi into a pile of goop (she can't OHKO him with a single Vigrid/Valhalla, the base damage just ain't high enough). Considering she's 2x weak to Fire in Manes mode and both of Rubi's turns happen while she's there, uh he kind of pounds nearly 8x PC HP worth of damage and she really can't do much of anything about it. She really, really wishes she could start in Manes Mode here, since I think she's faster either way and Vigrid/Valhalla 2HKO, but no dice.

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2) - Uh Lilka opens with Quicken and heals until she has Hi-Frost ready, OHKOing Harken's sorry ass.
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile) - At absolute worst, Fang opens in Sentinel and switches to Saboteur to smash the shit out of Lucian.

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII) - uh i think? Pretty sure Red 2HKOs average under my views and Stocke can't chip him away from something nasty like Stardust Ray. Switch -might- be an option? But then, under my averages, I suspect the damage bonus may well get Stocke 2HKOed by Nanaki here. Not good.
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) - Odessa's pretty durable against magic - certainly durable enough to avoid the 2HKO from Rauny with room to spare. The healing and the decent damage handles the rest.

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III) - Uh I'm pretty sure White Mage runs out of MP before killing Ace because he 3HKOs her at base and he's also above average mdur (average or so mdef+above average HP, from what I see). Oh well.
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - Unlike what happened on Marivel vs. Erik, Silence doesn't stave Aguro's 2HKO away. Her other options don't really swing the dice in her favor.

[Random Consonant]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)

Middle
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII) - Stocke is slower and can't really 2HKO which means he eats a Stardust Ray to me (switching... is not far from suicide here) if he goes for a damage rush, and Push Assault would be a plan if Stocke were faster since his healstall game would actually work but he's not.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III) - Surely.
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - Surely.

[superaielman]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)- Pain makes this match pretty quick.
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)- A fire weakness against Rubicant is a bad idea.

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)- WA1o.
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)- Kneejerk.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- Can't think of a scaling that'd let Rauny win offhand. She *barely* 2HKOs average.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III)- WM runs out of gas.
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel (Wild ARMs 2)- Aguro's reign of terror goes unchecked.

[Dhyerwolf]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- Die horrible stat-less rank

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III)
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)

[Pyro]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X). Yunie
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV). Rubi

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2). Lilka. Hi freeze will ohko.
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile): Swaps out Might Bangle for Resist Charm and still 2hkos I think. Stun or paralyze check might work.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII):Red 3hkos first at worst. Especially with an l2 limit.
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)  odessa. Better.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III). White Mage.With Protect, Amgelic Ward, and Cura I think she can whittle for a goood while.
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2).Aguro. Just 2hkos her.

Data Mine

What games would you like added to the Data Mine for future tournament consideration?

Maybe BD2?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X): Really the only reason Yuna even needs aeons here is to deal with Ashera's 50 res at the end. Block silence and cast Protect first turn, cruise.
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV): Snow's analysis seems on point. Remaining in Eryu mode to avoid the fire weakness isn't an option because it isn't fire-resistant so she just gets outslugged.

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2): spoil'd
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile): If curse isn't seen as equivalent to Pain, Fang obviously wins. If it is, Lucian can block that at the cost of either HP or damage... he's gonna lose damage, since he still 2HKOs with stun chances (HP might get him killed by one attack after Deprotect). And past that I'm... not sure? Daze might be a problem too and equipping two blockers might be a bit much. I'll chew this over.

Hyping Resist Charm is horrible in general (it's a worse Angel Curio pretty much; has anyone actually used one ever?) but even worse against someone who can fling five statuses a turn and thus break it almost immediately.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII): Seems right.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III): Having even Ace-level HP really really hurts White Mage.

[Pyro]

Yeah an Angel Curio would be infinitely better but those are ignored while status-blocking type things aren't to try and balance out status usage some so I figured allowing it was reasonable enough given it isn't too terribly expensive. I think the Resist Charm only has a chance of breaking if it stops an otherwise successful status attack? As for the 'multiple status attacks' thing I generally roll up multi-attacks from games that feature multiple actions/skills a 'turn' into one for the purpose of things like that. So a move that stops one attack in a game with 6/turn is mostly worthless but a move that stops 1 attack in a game with 1/turn would be good for 6 against a game with 6 actions/turn. Or cases like how Jude (who negates all damage below a certain threshold) from WA4 isn't practically immune to the FFXIII cast.

[Dark Holy Elf]

I think the Resist Charm only has a chance of breaking if it stops an otherwise successful status attack?

Have you tested this? (Because, seriously, restating my earlier comment about Resist Charms; they're useless junk in-game. I'm impressed if you'd find this out by accident.) I can admit I've never equipped one so I don't even know what visual indication they create when they kick in.

Resist Charm, if you used one for some reason, could be overwhelmed by multiple enemies using status attacks on you in-game (or even Succession Magic/Indiscriminate from a single enemy... maybe?), so if for some reason you wanted to allow them you should probably bake that weakness in. I'm all for not hyping Jude as spoiling FF13, Star Ocean, etc., but this doesn't feel the same. Hyping Jude in that situation gives him an in-game strength he doesn't have. This on the other hand is handwaving away a valid in-game weakness. The better analog to me is Eruca; I'd certainly see her shield skill (forget the name) as being spoiled by multihitting casts, since they reflect multihitting enemies from her home game, as well as multiple enemies attacking.


I think there's a pretty good case for not allowing breakable gear (Angel Curios, Reverse Dolls, Soul Gems, ... didn't one of the PSX BoFs even have a storebought armour which had the same effect? Might have been fairy village only) and don't really see the point of making an exception for this just because it's a statusblocker. If Lucian wants to block both pain (= curse?) and daze (= paralysis?) he can equip two accessories. (And to be clear if you let him do so without penalty, this whole discussion is moot, since those are the only two relevant statuses I can see here which VP can block, unless Resist Charm totally defies my expectations by working on Sap Guard.)


EDIT:

Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- Die horrible stat-less rank

Both of them have stat topic entries! Unless you're just complaining about Odessa not having an entry in the stat topic you made in which case there's nothing nice I can say here so I should probably just not say anything at all.

[VySaika]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X) - Easy
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2) - Easy
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII) - STocke is slower? Yeah, that'll do it then.
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) - Similar stats and one char has actual skillset that matters.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III) - Yup
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - Yup.

Looks like Fang vs Lucian is the only match that isn't straightforward this time, and I can't vote on endgame FF13. :V

If it matters though, I'd say that pain and curse are similar enough and Lucian should take it with a clean 2HKO.

[Dhyerwolf]

Both of them have stat topic entries! Unless you're just complaining about Odessa not having an entry in the stat topic you made in which case there's nothing nice I can say here so I should probably just not say anything at all.

You're right, I should have said valid notes. I wouldn't consider Odessa at endgame valid.

[SnowFire]

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)
This is some weird spoiling, because Rubicant isn't THAT durable, but Orgulla goes from "light dusting" to "frappe" as her only settings, so she can't exploit this.

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)
Kinda with Dhyer on this.  The classic DL did some very "clever" things like figure out how this temp would look against the party at endgame, and sometimes this is fine (XG Elly), but sometimes ends up weird (FF6 Banon / Leo).  That said, I've nominated my fair share of interp splits too, so oh well.

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III)

Data Mine

Persona 5 kinda obvious.
Fire Emblem Echoes is like...  nobody, but curious to see how nobody.
SMT DS1 is already listed, but you can add me to the players for that, CK.
I played Trails in the Sky SC, CK (don't think I was listed there).

[Dark Holy Elf]

"How Odessa looks at endgame" is both extremely easy to figure out and intuitive. S1 stat growth is completely linear/predictable (outside minor random variance) and the wind rune's behaviour is well-documented. IMO it's more intuitive than giving her overkill damage with one shot of Shredding (if she even reaches that! I've sometimes gotten it and sometimes not) scaling her from the time. That said if someone wanted to pull those stats for temp Odessa, that's obviously fine. I just don't understand complaining because your own preferred view doesn't have stats for it; not like it's hard to grab stats for that yourself...

Banon/Leo are less good cases for taking with endgame levels/equipment because a lot of it depends on equipment changing as the game goes on (FF6 equipment is a big deal!) and in Leo's case he participates in one plotty fight so nobody really has a good intuitive sense of him to begin with beyond "well he seemed good I guess".


I also second the requests to datamine Bravely Second and Echoes. Also separately, we should totally rank Fates unless we're planning to give up on ranking new games forever (the newest ranked game is now nearly 4 years old). Would be open to other suggestions on this front too.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III)
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)

[Tide]

Godlike
Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X) - Does this character let Yuna get a turn? Y N. Well, that was easy.
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV) - Y'know, I completely forgot Orgulla had a Fire Weakness. That said, see Snow and Super. Being weak to fire against Rubi is a very, very bad idea.

Heavy
Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2) - Think Snow is right unless you think Lilka is so frail that she gets 2HKO'd. She shouldn't since Harken IIRC only has 3HKO damage at full health. So Lilka just Haste-Heals until she gains enough ground, buffs evade if she wants, chip around and generally plays with her food before going for the finish.
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile) - Yeah, I don't see Resist Charms as a thing here. So Fang completely busts Lucian's nuts.

Middle
Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII) - No way around a L2. My kneejerk was that he triggers a L3, which is even worse. But yeah, think the L2 wins the slugfests if he goes for it and Red being faster means a healstall doesn't really work


Data Mine
What games would you like added to the Data Mine for future tournament consideration?
- Seconding Fates. Widely played and relatively simple to translate over
- Cold Steel/Cold Steel 2. Duelers are neat, game is cool. More people should play it, etc.
- Persona 5 makes the most sense as a third choice. Can't vote on it myself, but has decent playership from what it feels like.

[Pyro]

By your own notes Harken 2hkos the slightly frail at high HP?
Haste heal still works? Or just OHKOing eith Hi Freeze or something.

The issue with Cold Steel is that there are going to be 4 of the games and some of the PCs will surely return for updated forms

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Haste-heal should work mostly because Quicken's very good and Lilka is decently fast even at base. Worst comes to worst, Lilka just heals once and then Hi-Freezes (can't imagine Lilka wouldn't get the 5-7 FP she needs to access it from a single Harken thwack and she can't really chip Lilka without Maximum Risk dealing actual damage), she should avoid a 3-2.

[Tide]

By your own notes Harken 2hkos the slightly frail at high HP?
Haste heal still works? Or just OHKOing eith Hi Freeze or something.

Hm? I don't recall ever placing hard numbers down for either. My recollection is that Harken does high 3HKO damage to a speedrun level'd Cecilia (so losing about 5 levels worth of stats and generally only has minimal extra passives). Since Lilka and Ceci are like the same type of build, my kneejerk is that she's roughly around that area, but should be better since she won't be underleveled and WA2 durability spread wasn't that drastic unless your name is Tim. Checking the stat topic, NEB has Harken doing 440 damage to 1050 average, which seems right.

Both Lilka and Harken are from TB games. So if you don't see doubling as a thing, she probably doesn't even need it. She can just sit and heal forever and build FP, then smash once her FP level is high enough. If you do see doubling, Haste-heal works because as noted by Snow, Lilka's base speed is decent (one thing she does have over Cecilia) and she really only needs to stop or delay the double long enough from the first Quick, which she should. From there, a 3HKOing character going against someone with pretty much infinite healing and trading turns 1 for 1 (or close to it) isn't going to make any headway. At least that's how I see it.

If Harken 2HKOs, then its a different story. Harken definitely goes first, so Lilka can't open with Quick anymore. And if she 3-2s (which Harken might? I just know her speed is really good), healing won't work she'll get killed in the ensuing double. She still has a chance from a OHKO with Hi-Freeze, but I'm not super confident on that working. My gut is that Lilka's durability can't be that much worse than Cecilia (and should be better in some ways) so she should have this.

The issue with Cold Steel is that there are going to be 4 of the games and some of the PCs will surely return for updated forms

I thought there were only going to be 3? It shouldn't matter though. We have alt forms of other characters that make multiple appearances (Lenneth/Yuri are two popular ones that come to mind) so what's wrong with say Rean2 vs Rean3?

[Pyro]

I guess I always thought of Trails sequels as being one long game. Like Joshua and Estelle I'd consider Trails 2 their valid forms even if 1 was better? I guess it has the "To be continued in X" feel...

[Cmdr_King]

Eh, I can see that but considering the length of time to go on between releases, having characters available in perfectly valid forms is still better overall.

Besides, we totally ranked the Xenosaga games as they came out, and that cast changed dramatically more between games than any Trails character has.

[Dark Holy Elf]

We also ranked Path of Radiance in full knowledge of Radiant Dawn's existence. If an earlier game has better voting numbers there's nothing wrong with ranking it specifically.

Generally when a significant cast of characters appears in multiple ranked games I'd encourage any given voter to choose and stick to a game to avoid average-cheating (like Pyro is talking about for Trails 1 -> 2) but this shouldn't stop us from ranking games as they come out and/or as people play them.

[OblivionKnight]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X) - Yeah, summon, death.
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose) vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV) - Mmmm...so, Orgulla is close to 30x durability to me.  RubiCAN is more like 10x.  Orgulla hits 4x weakness with physicals, which...means each hit is 1.4x HP.  RubiCAN deals 2x with a 2x weakness which puts him at...4x HP damage.  So wow, this is...really close.  So RubiCAN kills in ~8 actions, Orgulla kills in ~8 as well...and she's faster, but misses a turn to switch to Manes!  So straight up, RubiCAN wins...except that Medica, Quick, and attacking things in uber-fast Eryu mode...wins it with her durability advantage.  Close as hell, honestly, but the lack of fire weakness with Medica and Quick helps her a ton.  Random switches to Manes/Eryu might make a difference?

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs) vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2) - No EXAing, so...man, enough defense boosting and she'll be ok.  But...no, don't see her damage killing Harken.  Too much pressure, forces heal-lock even with buffing.  Give it to the one that keeps doing damage - if Lilka doesn't heal, she gets killed.
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII) vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile) - I suppose.

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII) - FULL LIMITS
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden) vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) - I do agree that temps should be taken when they leave (but, I mean, it's not hard to reverse engineer and think back that far).  "Valid" as a note is very subjective, as there's been precedent for temp vs. endgame for those types of characters before - best to have all the notes possible, which aren't too hard to make.  Taking her as a temp...makes her awesome, since I don't think runes were buyable at that point (matters to me, since I allow purchasing storeboughts), and she shreds things hard.  Taken at endgame, she's ok, but still probably serviceable enough for this? 

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default) vs Ace (Suikoden III) - RUNES
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom) vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2) - Really need to get to taking Lufia temp stats at some point - I imagine Aguro doesn't look as good when Lufia is taken out of the averages?  Does Guillotine hit before dying?  Marivel is far faster (97% speed vs. 80%), Aguro deals 1.09% average damage.  Marivel is 90% HP, so he...kills in 3 shots.  So 3 shots should be enough...now, if you include HP Up in the averages, she dies way faster (2-shotted), although could she kill on damage?  No...no she can't.  So...yeah, being faster is the thing here. 

Data Mine

Persona 5
Undertale
South Park: The Stick of Truth
South Park: The Fractured But Whole
Exit Fate
Last Scenario
Fire Emblem: Fates
The Demon Rush

[Cmdr_King]

Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Yuna (Final Fantasy X)- iiiiiiiiii
Orgulla (Xenosaga: Jenseits von Gut und Bose)- i vs Rubicante (Final Fantasy IV)- iiiiiiii

Heavy

Lady Harken (Wild ARMs)- i vs Lilka Eleniak (Wild ARMs 2)- iiiiiiiiii
Oerba Yun Fang (Final Fantasy XIII)- iiiiii vs Lucian (Valkyrie Profile)- ii

Middle

Stocke (Radiant Historia) vs Red XIII (Final Fantasy VII)- iiiiiiiiiii
Odessa Silverberg (Suikoden)- iiiiiii vs Rauny Vinzalf (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)

Light

White Mage (Bravely Default)- i vs Ace (Suikoden III)- iiiiiiiii
Aguro (Lufia & The Fortress of Doom)- iiiiii vs Marivel Armitage (Wild ARMs 2)- i

Data Mine

Bravely Second: End Layer
Cosmic Star Heroine
Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadows of Valentia
The Legend of Heroes: Trails in the Sky The 3rd
The Legend of Heroes: Trails of Cold Steel II
Persona 5
Pokémon Sun/Moon
South Park: The Stick of Truth
South Park: The Fractured But Whole