Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 37

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Sleep 2 = Sleep, ignores status protection, 90% hit rate. Sleep causes the target to miss exactly one turn.

I see no mention of it being MT. Are you going by DoS Lich, by any means?

[Taishyr]

Shuckle isn't getting to -act- before Crowley switches tacks, is the thing. Slow as hell and slower after Illusion means Crowley gets to use a physical afterward and Shuckle's Encore becomes irrelevant.

[hinode]

That fiend fight is kinda awkward because IIRC all FF1o characters are effectively average speed... and Chemist is probably average (although I should calculate generics+PC cast average, just to be sure) and VP2 is another game where everything is roughly average I think.  So turn order is probably going to be a complete mess.

My kneejerk is that either Lenneth or Chemist should get a turn before Lich and OHKO it with a healing move.  This leaves Kary+teammate one-rounding a target as the biggest threat, and Tiamat's damage is MT to boot.  On the upside, Mia's got 3 revivers, and Auto-Potion cuts down on the amount of healing needed here.

Also, Terra does not have a paralysis blocker, as that status doesn't exist in FF6 and the closest thing (Stop) has no blocker either.  On the other hand, she has enough mblock by now that Hold would be turn 2, and that's two turns of Kary not putting up any pressure.  Dunno if it'd be worth trying for her, since Lenneth can heal the status, though obviously at the cost of not using Heal that turn.

EDIT: Sleep 2 is ST.  Sleep 1, which is less accurate, is MT.

[Magic Fanatic]

...Actually, I don't know.  I was just recalling wrong, more than likely, so nevermind on that part...  But status blockers that're available at this point is still curious to me.

...Also, Crowley insta-doubling Shuckle, based on each being from a TB game?  Yeah, uh...  I dunno.  BoF3 battle system mechanics (for all that it's similar in pretty much every aspect to other TB games save how it handles EX turns) seem like the biggest boon here in making any decisions to me.

Just like in-game, Crowley doesn't seem that fast because he has LOADS of faster characters to compete with (and only getting one action a turn).  Likewise, Shuckle doesn't seem that slow, based on the fact that each competitor only gets one action per turn, no exceptions.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

You're using the TB turn card now when you were relying on doubles from TB characters for your arguments last time? Double-standards much, Magic? You could at least pretend you're not trolling, you know. Please stop that.

[Magic Fanatic]

Hey, don't mind me.  I just discarded the view that failed, and am taking up the reins of the view that did me in.

By the way, what's wrong with seeing TB speed in terms of BoF3's system?  Doubles are still possible there.

[Clear Tranquil]

If you really see it as that much of a problem Magic then Eiko can lessen Crowley's spending with Fenrir/Phoenix I think~

[Luther Lansfeld]

Miasma and Tai pass, abstain on Ashe.

[Talaysen]

Just like in-game, Crowley doesn't seem that fast because he has LOADS of faster characters to compete with (and only getting one action a turn).  Likewise, Shuckle doesn't seem that slow, based on the fact that each competitor only gets one action per turn, no exceptions.

This is ridiculous.  Three of the people in that battle (Bartz, Eiko, Cecil) come from a CTB-like system.  Are you going to toss THEM into a TB-system too?  They're all fighting on the same field, so they have to use the same turn system, otherwise it makes absolutely no sense.  Either look at everyone as CTB or look at everyone as TB.  None of this half and half crap.

[Excal]

Eh, for those of us who don't see Illusion as kicking in first turn, is there anything besides that that would assist in preventing Crowley from getting Encored?  Saner is not showing up on Floor 1, and I don't think there's any other speed manipulation on Team Taishyr.

[SnowFire]

I don't think Magic Fanatic's comments are necessarily ridiculous (although they're apparently inconsistent with what he said last week?).  I certainly don't think TB and CTB speed should be treated the same, myself.  I think the most consistent way to put it that honors how things work in-game is to treat CTB speed straight-up, and Turn-based speed is only "initiative."  So Jessica gets a really fast first turn, and still moves quickly in the "second" turn, but is not actually fast for the purposes of doubling.  In the same way, slow characters go at the end of every round but never lose ground on doubles, so Ragnar doubles a mildly slow CTB character eventually, and a mildly fast CTB character eventually doubles Piastol, whose speed does not help her get extra actions.

Since the general consensus seems to be to allow turn-based characters to double, I think I let TB characters have a weak CTB-style effect so that there isn't major disagreement, but it's a tough issue and no answer is going to work intuitively in all situations, especially once haste/slow/delay effects start getting tossed in.  But anyway, yeah, no way should a TB character ever be insta-doubled by another TB character.  Nash does not ever double Ghaleon, and if in the DL we fudge things such that he does, he does so only occasionally.  I'd tentatively estimate that "seeming" speeds should be averaged with 1.0 as a fair compromise, so a TB character with 120% average speed would exactly keep pace with a 110% average speed CTB character (and go first every pair of turns), and to cap things at an adjusted 80%/120% CTB speed max.

Annnnyway.  It was pointed out that there was a  full heal before Orlandu; I was going off the full descriptions which didn't mention that.  Doesn't matter since I think Lady Ashe's team loses anyway.  Don't mess with the Thunder God.  Also, re VP evasion, uh, is my memory gone?  Sure, PCs can evade, but monsters don't really (block: yes).  Maybe I never noticing due to always opening with magic / Wait Reaction.  Not a big deal anyway.

Also tentative pass to Team Miasmacloud.  The Four Fiends fight is nasty, but I think the team pulls through.

[Clear Tranquil]

What is ridiculous is the idea that a solid team like Tai's doesn't get past floor one. lol floor one and all that ;p~

For what it's worth here is what I see Eiko having at this stage -

Cure
Cura
Life
Shell
Protect
Fenrir/Phoenix
Bright Eyes (>.>)
Antibody (!)
Jelly
Loudmouth
Auto Regen

Phoenix is a viable option to me because it's possible to have a Phoenix Pinion in the FF9 inventory from very early on. I believe it may even be possible to pick one up as Vivi in Alexandria during the very begining of the game. Your milage may vary but as far as I know it isn't illegal by dungeon rules for Eiko to use early game equips and since in FF9 equips = skills! >.>

Eiko can MT Cure/Cura and her summons as well as cast Life. Add in Tai's other support and it's more than capable of keeping his team on it's feet.

[Taishyr]

Okay. To finally put this to rest:

Everyone except Eiko physicals Fred turn 1.

Enemy team cannot sanely do enough fast enough to any member of the team to kill them off.

Battle ends there because every round will be the same as the first except the enemy team will keep <edit> losing members </edit>.

Crowley doesn't even need to use his charge, it'd just be faster.

Hell. The entire team can just slam down Shuckle (Monk Bartz as Fighting type vs. Rock = lawl?), kill him deadish, -then- pull their tricks. Whatever. The enemy team flat out lacks the offense or healing to stop my team. Sorry, but no.

This is all ignoring the fact that I've been flat-out understating Crowley's damage for the sake of argument. Average beginning-of-game damage is about 100 in Suikoden if not less, Crowley is forced at ~400 damage due to how the equation works (Base Damage (400) + Crowley's Magic - Enemy's MDef), so his measly four charges are an effective tactical nuke at this point, and there's pretty much zilch here able to stand against that + Bartz's current gamebest damage.

Sheesh. I'm more surprised than anything, but hey.

Excal: You could reasonably see the speed debuff part kicking in turn 2, I guess (since Rika's pretty much acting before anyone else I'd disagree, the rest of your team will pretty much always get their turn before the enemy because of this, IIRC, but hey), but the evasion/defense factors are immediate and fairly noticeable.

[Dark Holy Elf]

VP enemies most definitely do evade in the non-block fashion.

http://www.gamefaqs.com/console/psx/file/199175/31208

Search for "dodge". Lots of enemies do it. Like PCs, they have to do it in order to counter.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Oh yeah, and Tai passing is one-sided enough for me to throw a vote his way, at this point.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Mia falls.

Lady Ashe passes.

Tai slaughters, especially under -my- interps.


CT: Do you have a full list of when Eiko/Garnet would have access to what equips in FF9? You seem to be pretty savvy with figuring out equip/ability availability for Dungeon floors. Seems like useful info to have on the wiki.

SnowFire's view of CTB and TB speed is interesting to me. SnowFire, would you post a little bit more on that in the DL Interps topic? It seems especially important for Dungeon and RPGmon stuff. Might matter for DL team battles?

-Djinn

[superaielman]

Will vote in a few.

Hey, don't mind me.  I just discarded the view that failed, and am taking up the reins of the view that did me in.

While some unhappiness with the format is understandable when your team loses early, this doesn't give you the right to generally throw a fit here. You've been given a lot of leeway with how you've acted in the dungeon threads in spite of the passive aggressive complaining and trolling. If you're taking this so personally to the point that you feel the need to vote every other team down or just constantly complain and refuse to consider what people are saying, take a break from the topic and come back later.

[superaielman]

Team Miasmacloud | Terra, VP2 Lenneth, FFT Chemist, PC Seifer
[Floor 6a]
Team Miasma vs. Reno, Rude, Elena, Fujin and Raijin- Slow fight.
Team Miasma vs. Lich, Kraken, Kary and Tiamat- Way, way too much MT damage here, Mia's team can't blitz anyone in time. Seifer/Chemist are useless on offense here which also hurts, and Lenneth's offense is hurt by a team of physical tanks.
Team Miasma vs. Xenobia
*Full Heal
Team Miasma vs. Rofel, Adramelk and Kletian
Team Miasma vs. Zog and Melfice


Team Lady Ashe | Raquel, Arnaud, Guv, Yulie, Ricardo
[Floor 2d]
Team Ashe vs. Cloud, Tifa and Barret- Yulie's durability gets her killed early on here. No one else on the team can revive, and that is.. probably fatal.
Team Ashe vs. Belenus, Grey and Lucian- Illusion takes out Lucian, Belenus+Grey is probably fatal to Ricardo. Team is most likely toast at this point.
Team Ashe vs.Valeria and Anita- Yeah. Raquel's lack of speed hurts too much on a low revival team.
Team Ashe vs. Halley and Keith- Even if they get this far, too much status here.
*Full Heal
Team Ashe vs. Orlandu


Team Taishyr | Bartz, Rika, Crowley, Eiko
[Floor 1]
[Bartz: Monk (Unmastered)]
Team Tai vs. Rufus and Reno- Reno's not especially fast or threatening to a team. Reno shouldn't get two turns and Rufus isn't a factor.
Team Tai vs. Shuckle, Fred (S3) and Cecil- Shredding. That's fight.
Team Tai vs. Alice and FFT Priest- Priest+Alice can smash any one PC, but it's also on the slow side. Crowley's magic damage should be way above average at this point and is faster than Alice. It's enough to knock out Priest unless she plays defensively, and that's a losing propostion against Illusion.
Team Tai vs. Solt, Peppor, Alenia, Zahhak and Miluda- Doubleslash+Shredding.
Team Tai vs. Lundgren, Zalmo1 and Baigan- Shredding+Monk end Baigan before he can get Reflect happy.

CT- It's surprisingly easy to lose on the first three floors if you pick nothing but backended PC's. Had to think some on Tai's team, but.. Crowley is too good early on.  Neph's done a good job improving the early floors as well.

[Magic Fanatic]

Right, changing my vote from a negative on Tai's team.  Even with Shuckle's Encore, Crowley has more than enough charges to handle the floor.  Yeah, I'll go back to everyone doubling Shuckle before it even gets a turn.


I know how I acted was inexcusable, but aren't people that respond to what they consider a troll just as much to blame as well?  Still, sorry.  I'll try to make myself sparse.


Also, Snow?  Backing up a bit?  FFT mages really can't do anything until a second turn (albeit, one that often  comes much, much faster than just waiting for initial turn).  I was actually hyping Lilka to get in that space between the "start charging" and "cast spell" turns with the FP needed.  I should do some testing on Mint's Pow Hammer, to see if it's actually as bad as people say it is.

EDIT:  Actually, from what I'm seeing, it's not too bad.  I cast it a few times, and got three seconds of dizzy on an opponent, which could range from half a turn to a full turn, depending on what people think.  Considering it's also basically the passive character's Don't Move/Don't Act, it's actually a lot better than a lot of people give it credit for (gives buffing teams a LOT more time, relatively).

[Clear Tranquil]

No because you are not the Mafias/demons  So sit down and drink your goddamn tea! ;)

Super: Oh I know (my team went out on floor three remember ;p) but Tai's team doesn't seem like that and though I've seen floor three and sometimes floor two put up quite the challenge floor one usually only nails joke teams :p Tai's quite obviously not a joke!

Neph has indeed been changing things around. Things are different since my last team was in. Scaree!

Djinn: Sure, no problem *^_^* Lemme rustle up a list for ya~