Season 51, Week 2 - Quina discovers fear, science and loathing in the kitchen.

[James_xeno]

Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?

That's where White Wind comes in.

[James_xeno]

Why does Frog Drop being ITD matter when Worker 8 is immune to magic both via Innocent status -and- infinite MDef? Unless Frog Drop is physical, your idea sorta falls flat entirely.

It's neither. Frog Drop = (level * #frogs)

So less W8 is immune to "levels" and /or frogs as well, his little trick doesn't work here.

By this logic, I could say that the part of VP:DS magic damage that's solely based on the attacker's level can hit him. But it's still clearly magic! Frog Drop is in a magic skillset, and also is hit by Silence. FF 9 Silence just really gets the magic skillsets, which probably feels like the strongest proof here, especially since there some pseudomagic like skills in FF 9 that don't get hit by silence.

Silence doesn't matter. Worker 8 has effective magical immunity through nulling a stat used by magic. But that effective magical (stat) immunity doesn't equal actual, true magical immunity. It's only immunity against magic stat based attacks. You're conflating a magical stat immunity with full magic immunity. If Frog Drop was in FFT, it would hit W8 without any issue. That's the way his immunity is setup. Like with his skills, it's nothing more, nothing less.

[Dhyerwolf]

So by that logic, would all BoF 1 magic hit him because it's just set damage? Would White Wind work since it's just based on the caster's HP? This is in regards to the auto-Innocent part since Frog Drop would indeed ignore his infinite Mdef.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Re Quina's Auto-Life, the problem is that Quina comes back with piddling HP, so Worker can finish him off with a physical each time. Yeah, Quina can heal, but the healing doesn't stop Crush from killing, so he has to Auto-Life again while Worker kills him for free. Granted, this lets Quina do something on the turns Worker misses, but I don't think those happen too often?

That's where White Wind comes in.

White Wind healing is really awful. 25% mHP healing by endgame or something sad like that? It's still easy picking for a W8 physical, which is above average damage.

EDIT: Also, way to not notice the whole "Innocent status" thing. Even past the infinite MDef, Worker 8 has a permanent status effect that nulls all magic that hits him. I don't remember if 0 Faith grants him the status or not, but it's mechanically a step beyond infinite MDef, certainly.

[Dhyerwolf]

White Wind is just 33% MHP healing (based on the caster's HP), so a it's little better! It's thing in game is MT healing during a short period when you don't really have any solid healer.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Ah, yes, Gulg Volcano. I stab at thee, memories of youth.

[Dhyerwolf]

I actually meant Cleyra's base, but I suppose Gurgu Volcano works too since your healer is still unsteady then.

[074]

Godlike

Malik Bendict (WA3) vs. Edgar Roni Figaro (FF6) This is pretty clear-cut to me.  Perfect PEvade, Chaos Disorder...just in general.

Heavy

Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4) vs. Guy (FE7) - Yeah, uh, Guy vs. Arnaud evade.  That's before Shut Out.

Middle

Domingo (SF1) vs. Cid Highwind (FF7) - Can probably avoid a limit.  Most FF7 characters in the DL are "meh" at best.  Cid's no exception.
Katt (BoF2) vs. Kyra Tierny (PS4) - Katt really wishes she had shamanization here.  Warla, Telele, and near-limitless healing equate some sort of stupidly sick rape.

Light

Roger S. Huxley (SO3) vs. Rufus Shinra (FF7) - I never even USED Roger, and I can tell he's better than Rufus.  Who completely blows without scaling, even.

[Ayra]

I'll just admit that after having nominated my favorite character Katt for so many weeks, I'm awfully sad that she'll get destroyed that badly

[Meeplelard]

In credit to the BoF1 Magic Argument, it DOES hit magic defense in game, just BoF1 has a really screwed up Magic Defense system (Magic Defense only applies when you use Defend and/or Shield, where the damage reduction is affected by the character's Magic Defense score.)

Though, I think an odd parallel to this scenario, odd cause the series is so fucked up in this regard, is SMT Null Magic.

I seem to recall that Null/Reflect/Absorb Magic in Persona 2 hits many Set Damage Moves like Heiros Glupaine, cause they are technically magical, yet they ignore magic defense and what not, or heck, the character's stats in general.  However, it still rams into Magic Immunity.  Why should Frog Drop vs. Worker 8's Magic Immunity be any different?

[Yoshiken]

Because Frog Drop isn't magic-based -or- physical-based, as far as I know.
This goes back to the argument about the naming of moves - Silence blocks the "Blue Magic" command, which also contains attacks that are physical-based. Arguing that it's magic based solely around the naming of it is completely pointless, as that doesn't actually give anything other than a category for the attack, not how it actually works.

Seems there's no specific way to determine if it's physical or magical, so I guess that's open to interpretation.
Judging from my most recent finding, though, I'm gonna have to say that it does look like Quina loses - Goblin Punch is based on Magic in FFIX, not Attack. If that's not physical, I highly doubt Frog Drop or Limit Glove are.

[alanna82]

Actually I'm pretty sure worker 8 can be hit by Rafa's truth skills, which ignore faith. (I remember using it on an enemy with Worker 8 in the area and worker died because it was the lightning one). Rafa's truth damage is MAGIC based and ignores all MDEF (faith).  I'd say Frog Drop is something similar.

[Dhyerwolf]

I don't think Rafa's skills are Silence-able though.

[superaielman]

Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.

[Talaysen]

Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.

BMG lists them as magical and they use MA in the formula.  I think they get hit by Magic DefendUP as well, but unsure about that.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I'll just admit that after having nominated my favorite character Katt for so many weeks, I'm awfully sad that she'll get destroyed that badly

Yeah, but don't feel too bad, at least Katt's losing to someone -good- and not being robbed. Kyra's really more of a Low Heavy, while Katt's an average Middle. She'll get another chance!


That's an interesting note about BoF MDEF, though. It kind of makes sense, in a 'story' way. I mean, just how many people have any kind of 'natural' defense against magic? I can buy it from elves or gods or demons maybe, but normal mortals and humans should be pretty squishy to it. The idea that their 'natural tolerance' to magic is only noticeable when someone has used a magical shield on them makes sense to me.

I mean, even a giant wave of fire comes roaring at you and your only defense is the thickness of your skin... that's not doing much. Those barriers/force shields seem pretty vital for mortals facing magical attack.

Of course, too much reality makes for boring gameplay, and I can see why more recent games have moved away from the BoF model of MDEF (and I approve).

-Djinn

[James_xeno]

So by that logic, would all BoF 1 magic hit him because it's just set damage? Would White Wind work since it's just based on the caster's HP? This is in regards to the auto-Innocent part since Frog Drop would indeed ignore his infinite Mdef.

1. BoF 1 has magic defense. (see Meeplelard's post)

2. BoF 1's magic hits MD (see 1 ^) and is not ITD. Frog Drop hits no defense and is ITD.

EDIT: Also, way to not notice the whole "Innocent status" thing. Even past the infinite MDef, Worker 8 has a permanent status effect that nulls all magic that hits him. I don't remember if 0 Faith grants him the status or not, but it's mechanically a step beyond infinite MDef, certainly.

Infinite MDef against what?? Frog Drop doesn't hit magic defense!   "_ minus infinity" ?!?

Seems there's no specific way to determine if it's physical or magical, so I guess that's open to interpretation.
Judging from my most recent finding, though, I'm gonna have to say that it does look like Quina loses - Goblin Punch is based on Magic in FFIX, not Attack. If that's not physical, I highly doubt Frog Drop or Limit Glove are.

What do you mean? Frog Drop is in no way based on magic, offensive or defensive.

I don't think Rafa's skills are Silence-able though.

Not true. Silence works on Truth just like the others.

[Silence]

Description:  Character cannot use Silence-flagged magic or TALK SKILL.
Specifically, the following attacks are disabled (the name of a skillset
means that the entire skillset is disabled by Silence):
------------------------------------------------------------------------
WHITE MAGIC      TRUTH           Deathspell 2   All-ultima
BLACK MAGIC      UN-TRUTH        MBarrier       Mute
TIME MAGIC       BIO             Melt           Despair 2
YIN-YANG MAGIC   JA MAGIC        Tornado        Return 2
SUMMON MAGIC     Ultima (09A)    Quake          Death Sentence (0EA)
TALK SKILL       Dark Holy       Ultima (0E5)   Midgar Swarm
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So much for the "Silence > Blue Magic = immunity" and "Uber magic immunity" arguments.

Rafa's skills are the same as breath attacks. They're very explicitly not magical.

No. They are both magical, but are not based on faith in their damage formula. (hit MA only.. something Frog Drop doesn't even do)


Truth damage = [(MA + spell power) / 2] * MA

Breath damage = MA * spell power

[ThePiggyman]

Can Frog Drop be reflected? I don't think so, but if it could, that would seal my opinion on it as Magic. And if Frog Drop can indeed be classified as "magic", then I would see Worker 8 as anulling it.