Season 50, Week 3 - Whee Middle slapfights in Heavy. Also, dog vs. fridge OTP.

[Clear Tranquil]

It'd be like if we suddenly starting allowing the FF7 cast to use materia since they can get extra status blocking options from that!

I think that you'll find that Super isn't the only one that holds those views, Excal.

[superaielman]

Except that no one has yet suggested anything that's hard to access.  Only that it goes through a different medium, and one which is easily accesable in game.  In fact, given the nature of the GF system, FF8 is far easier to accept this for than something like WA3 where you must disregard hard coded boosts and forced skillsets, while FF8 you can simply not equip anything except that which you are using.

Hard to access is one reason equips/status blockers aren't legal for some games, but it it wasn't was specifically cited against FF8. Though it certainly doesn't help that you don't at normal endgame have enough Stat-D equips to go around.

Nah, that line was more a crack at Super and his DL Legal fiction.  Honestly, I'm more in this to make an argument, and see if it sticks.  And generally do my bit to promote a wide array of views on what is and is not allowed.

(What's seen as) DL legal is what a majority of people see what's within the rules. This is clearly an exception to DL legal to make one game less screwed when it goes against pretty much everything else legal wise, so I feel on pretty solid grounds saying that one. 

I do not believe that this represents a new exception at all.  The purpose before was to allow statusblocking.  The limitation to accessories?  A compromise for it to be accepted.  Even now I don't think it's universal.  That said, dissallowing an accepted exception because of the means when the ends are the same strikes me more as viewing the letter of the law as more important than the spirit of that same law.  Or, more importantly, viewing the method as more important than the intent.

You've yet to respond why this one game in particular deserves special treatment for blocking status. Everything you've said has ignored this point. Why does one game and not every other one in the DL deserve extra room on legality to block status?

You tried to tie this into a totally different case (FF9's status blocking) which is why you're getting this type of response. The two are not the same issue.

Re: Snowfire

There are games where there aren't any legal equips. Mostly SRPGs and a couple of damned odd normal RPGs (Koudelka keeps coming to mind). Junctions are the same way. It does suck for the cast, but I donno. There are a lot of games in the DL who have next to no status protection or none at all. Should we allow say Dekar to use a Dark Mirror or other DL illegal equips solely because it can block status? Or what about games that have a little status protection but the critical stuff isn't legal?

[Luther Lansfeld]

I don't really care about the argument in the slightest, but you could really use to be less passive-aggressive if you want people to take your arguments seriously, Excal. <_< Looking at this as someone who, again, doesn't have a real opinion on the matter, I am not convinced by what you say because you've chose to phrase it in this underlying snippiness which makes me think your motives are just to be a frue rebel, not to really change anyone's minds.

[Mad Fnorder]

Huh. I never thought accessories were per-se illegal, just limited to storebought/unique equips. Status blockers end up being the only ones that really matter, since stat boosters would boost the average altogether and thus have no net effect.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Well, there are element blockers too, and things like Auto-Reflect... but seeing that most people don't consider FFT Reflect Mail anyway, you can argue that you'd just rule against the latter anyway. Assuming you see Haste/Protect/Shell types as in the averages, they're probably not too harmful otherwise. *waits for Meeple to show up and prove him wrong with some accessories which would be horrific to allow*

The element stuff is the main thing that keeps me banning them; more elemental resistance is the last thing the DL needs.

[Dhyerwolf]

Stat boosters arguably make a cast worse by hitting their stats when they need a status blocker anyways.

Things like elemental blockers are why I would consider all storebought accessories legal too.

[Excal]

Except that no one has yet suggested anything that's hard to access.  Only that it goes through a different medium, and one which is easily accesable in game.  In fact, given the nature of the GF system, FF8 is far easier to accept this for than something like WA3 where you must disregard hard coded boosts and forced skillsets, while FF8 you can simply not equip anything except that which you are using.

Hard to access is one reason equips/status blockers aren't legal for some games, but it it wasn't was specifically cited against FF8. Though it certainly doesn't help that you don't at normal endgame have enough Stat-D equips to go around.

Siren, Carbunkle, Cerberus.  They all have St-Def-J which means that the whole party is covered by the end of Disc 2.  And the way FF8 works, if you can cover the party, you can cover the cast.

I do not believe that this represents a new exception at all.  The purpose before was to allow statusblocking.  The limitation to accessories?  A compromise for it to be accepted.  Even now I don't think it's universal.  That said, dissallowing an accepted exception because of the means when the ends are the same strikes me more as viewing the letter of the law as more important than the spirit of that same law.  Or, more importantly, viewing the method as more important than the intent.

You've yet to respond why this one game in particular deserves special treatment for blocking status. Everything you've said has ignored this point. Why does one game and not every other one in the DL deserve extra room on legality to block status?

You tried to tie this into a totally different case (FF9's status blocking) which is why you're getting this type of response. The two are not the same issue.

I've yet to make that argument because I've yet to make that claim.  This argument is, right now, for games like FF8, FF9, and WA3.  Games where status defense is something that is well documented, easily available, and often used in game, but is generally argued as not being viable here.

That is the similarity that ties them together.  Games where if you had foreknowledge of a need to block a status, it would be relatively easy to do so.  And, just as forced extra effects other than status blocking can be ignored on accessories, so can they be ignored here.  And, for those worried about unbalancing things against status users, it's relatively easy to append a one status blocked at a time clause, which still rewards those status users who specialise in their craft.


As a side note to CT.  The FF7 cast, while you could argue the case for status defense through materia, can also already block it through accessory use.  So, it makes little difference in the method used.

[Yoshiken]

I can see where Excal's coming with this, and I'm inclined to agree with him, at least on the cases of FFVIII & IX. (Don't know WA3)
In the DL, what are FFVIIIers allowed? Just attacks & limits?
Where's the harm in, say, hypothetically giving them a GF, but limiting them by not allowing any menu options other than Attack? Essentially, all it does is put them on a level playing ground with the majority of other characters, but doesn't give them any illegal abilities or attacks.

(And while I'm thinking of this now, what are the rules/ideas about Selphie? How do people look at her limit in the DL?)

[superaielman]

Well, there are element blockers too, and things like Auto-Reflect... but seeing that most people don't consider FFT Reflect Mail anyway, you can argue that you'd just rule against the latter anyway. Assuming you see Haste/Protect/Shell types as in the averages, they're probably not too harmful otherwise. *waits for Meeple to show up and prove him wrong with some accessories which would be horrific to allow*

The element stuff is the main thing that keeps me banning them; more elemental resistance is the last thing the DL needs.

Elemental stuff mostly excaberates a few casts (FFT, SO2). The evasion whoring's bad (FFT, FF6 off the top of my head), but it fucks up the damage averages. To use FF6 again, think about what two Earrings does to Sabin's damage. Everyone may have equal access, but the impact's all over the place. SO2 is the same way, making the mages puny beyond belief... well, okay this isn't a bad thing, still! It also really hurts casts for blocking status.

Siren, Carbunkle, Cerberus.  They all have St-Def-J which means that the whole party is covered by the end of Disc 2.  And the way FF8 works, if you can cover the party, you can cover the cast.

Most every game can rotate equips.

I've yet to make that argument because I've yet to make that claim.  This argument is, right now, for games like FF8, FF9, and WA3.  Games where status defense is something that is well documented, easily available, and often used in game, but is generally argued as not being viable here.

That is the similarity that ties them together.  Games where if you had foreknowledge of a need to block a status, it would be relatively easy to do so.  And, just as forced extra effects other than status blocking can be ignored on accessories, so can they be ignored here.  And, for those worried about unbalancing things against status users, it's relatively easy to append a one status blocked at a time clause, which still rewards those status users who specialise in their craft.

Which still is ignoring the basic point. Why does FF8 in particular deserve special treatment on status compared to other casts? It can't access status blockers except with a DL illegal medium. That is why it's special treatment; CT's point is dead on. Even if say FF7 had no legal status blockers, we wouldn't let the cast use storebought materia and added defense (Even if there were enough) to block it. It's easy to do a lot of things in games that aren't legal in the DL, from most storebought magic to god setups that aren't legal here.  They're only similiar in that all three games can block status and the majority viewpoint right now does not allow it, in the case of FF8/WA3.  (FF9 doesn't need another medium/whatever for it, it's just a matter of what you allow with skills.)

[DjinnAndTonic]

From what I understand of how people view WA3, most people tend to allow Gallows the Water Medium, but the rest of the cast gets nothing there.

Would Gallows get status blocking options then? At least for the storebought status-blocking items?

[Dark Holy Elf]

WA3 statusblockers probably class as "price too high to be legal". They range from 100k-500k gella, and only even show up in the Black Market AFTER you've found and sold one by some other means.

[Cmdr_King]

Adding skills to mediums like that is permanent and a medium can only have so many skills attatched, so I tend to think it's not something people would allow even if they adopted the core idea of treating things like Mediums as standard equipment in other respects (as is being argued.)

[alanna82]

And this is why I do not allow accessories unless they are intial or unique only. Too much of a slippery slope/headache.

I thought Slash's "Slash" skill was the same as Chrono's? AKA a non magic attack that does magical damage. (it has no star by it like magic does in Chrono's list)

Also, Lyn actually has pretty good stat resistance, seeing as Res also works as status resistance.

Also, can someone explain how Dorcas beats Hawkeye? Hawkeye goes first, so he should win. (If Dorcas uses a bow, Hawkeye can just get a free hit on him, and both can use hand axes so that point is moot) Hawkeye also has better defence than Dorcas, all Dorcas has is a few HP and Str, and Hawkeye is faster so he goes first so that doesnt really matter much here.  (I use 20/20 averages by the way) Dorcas has better hit rate too, but niether have good evade so I see both hitting each other and not evading.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hawkeye goes first, so he should win.

They have the same movement, so who goes first is a tiebreak. Unless you're letting FE speed count for both initiative and doubling, which I don't agree with.

Dorcas' Str lead is larger than Hawkeye's Def lead, along with his win in HP, so he does have the durability/damage advantage here.

[Magic Fanatic]

WA3 statusblockers probably class as "price too high to be legal". They range from 100k-500k gella, and only even show up in the Black Market AFTER you've found and sold one by some other means.

Then again, depending on where you look, getting some of them (even by monster drops) is a rather trivial task.  While grinding for Growth Eggs, I can get a crazy number of Earth Rings no sweat.  While walking around the Secret Garden, take 15 minutes with the randoms there (Summon Moa Gault, Mystic -> Fire Gem, Extend -> Cremate, take your pick), I've gotten at least 20 Heart Leaves.

Also take into account Gallows' insane magic damage, careful cherry picking, knowing what enemies have what, and the Lucky Shot, it gets easier.

Also, adding the skills to mediums isn't permanent, it's just a case that if you take the item off the medium, you don't get it back into your inventory.  At least, that's what I remember of it.

So, while they may classify as "illegal by non-unique monster drop rule," some are at least monster drops that are fairly easy to get one's hands on (versus, say the Pinktail).