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Author Topic: Season 52, Week 3  (Read 5592 times)

Talaysen

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #25 on: May 03, 2009, 05:24:38 AM »
I think the argument, Tal, is that people are claiming that Work ISN'T physical at all - that it's just damage without any typing that would allow it to be affected by resistances etc. That or I'm just misunderstanding entirely and you should ignore me when I talk about a game I never finished.

Yes, that is what people are hyping and I am not disagreeing with it.  I am disagreeing with the argument that it being ITD/ITE (which was brought up once and never mentioned again) being enough to bypass physical immunity.

Unless you meant my third paragraph but that's just mostly a side comment and like I said, not applicable here.

Is there anything explicitly immune to physicals in FFT?

I... don't think so.  There's Vanish, but that might be perfect evasion and not immunity.  I never used it really.

Excal

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2009, 05:31:45 AM »
Which, as I recall, was a comment made by the Elf originally that you could theoretically see Work as just a physical skillset with ITD/ITE properties, and that you had to do so in order to make the argument that her immunity would effect Work.  I don't think anyone has claimed that ITE/ITD by itself would do the trick.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #27 on: May 03, 2009, 05:40:08 AM »
I implied there was an argument that it would, but Tal's counter-points are pretty valid there.

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VySaika

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #28 on: May 03, 2009, 05:47:20 AM »
I think the "doesn't trigger counters that physicals trigger" is the selling point for me.
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Talaysen

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #29 on: May 03, 2009, 05:57:27 AM »
I think the "doesn't trigger counters that physicals trigger" is the selling point for me.

To be fair, stuff like Swordskill and a whole bunch of other clearly physical abilities also don't trigger those counters.  FFT physical counters... don't really trigger against that much stuff in general.

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2009, 06:45:18 AM »
FFT Swordskills do hit Defense Up/Protect, so they're clearly Physical, is one difference.  You'll notice that the arguement with Work is that it has the complete package.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2009, 06:52:30 AM »
Yeah. Basically, the only thing about Work that ties it to physicals is being based on PA, but FFT already has a multitude of evidence that stat and damage type are not necessarily related. (Elemental is half based on PA but is magic, Sticks are based off MA but is physical, etc.)

The fact that MK itself also has non-physical attacks based on the Attack stat (and Pamela doesn't null those) feels like the icing when combined with that.

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Talaysen

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2009, 06:54:08 AM »
FFT Swordskills do hit Defense Up/Protect, so they're clearly Physical, is one difference.  You'll notice that the arguement with Work is that it has the complete package.

That's kinda the point.  Swordskills are physical and aren't countered, so Work not being countered alone does not make it not physical.  The arguments for it not being physical are completely different.

SageAcrin

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2009, 11:21:19 AM »
An important thing to note is what else functions like Work as far as flags go(Counters, resistances).

The skills that do are: Item(...), Song, Dance, Steal Heart out of the Steal set(The rest of the set is physical and will lower odds to hit vs Defense Up and Protect. ...Not much but.), some Draw Outs(One of the healing ones and two of the positive status ones, the rest are Magical for Shell/MDef Up purposes), Talk Skills(Well, they have a specific counter, but ignoring that...), some Basic Skill/Guts buffs/status healing(Accumulate, Heal, Yell, Scream, Wish), Galaxy Stop, all Fear-class(Zodiac Beast 100%) status attacks, Shock, Dragoner Dragon-boosting/healing skills(But not the breaths), Self-Destruct off a Bomb, Blood Suck, a bunch of assorted monster buff moves and status moves, Ulmaguest, Work skills, a few Altima status skills, and a Byblos healing and a status move.

The overall impression you get out of this is rather notable. These skills are equally spread amongst PA/MA(If anything, it's more MA, those assorted monster status moves all run off MA), but very often don't run off user stats at all(or run off stats like HP), and are most often classed healing/status.

So, really, Pamela blocking Work is, by FFT's in-game set of similar attacks... more like blocking a status attack(Positive or negative), stat buff or a healing item than anything else. Ignoring those, it's closer to fixed HP-based damage-class attack than anything else. Self-Destruct, Almuguest, Blood Suck, Shock, Lifebreak vs Wiznaibus and Work.

There's nothing even approaching a standard physical skill in the set of moves like this, except Work. Dance is the next most standard, and the same skillset that includes PA-based damage to HP and MP also includes stat downs and status. Take this as you will; It's just worthy of note that Work is unusually rare in this distinction. (Moreso than I realized.)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2009, 11:28:20 AM by SageAcrin »
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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #34 on: May 04, 2009, 03:51:33 AM »
Godlike:

Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs): Tend to think 3 can take him down with magic in time.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2): I guess... silence works?
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK): Break hype aside, she gets a head start and the speedy death is kinda ridiculous.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3): Boom.

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs): This match makes Pyro go "GRAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB): I guess?
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4)
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK): Damn it. Oh well, we can try again in 3 seasons~

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4)
vs Cagnazzo (FF4): Haste healing.
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1): OHKO. Odessa's damage is badass at the end of her stay, apparently.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8): Big huge massive "whatever" here. I guess PC temp Seifer can beat him with No Mercy.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4): Upgrade already.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2): Anri has a solid OHKO to *average*.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2)
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): This is amusing.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4): A hearty "whatever" from me.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #35 on: May 04, 2009, 04:14:26 AM »
Quote
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB)- How's Fogel on status resistance? What does OB check?

He knocks 20% off status/ID.

Quote
Myria (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs)- Brahms. Myria's best for me is the 3rd form, and that's based on limits that don't activate soon enough. Brahms gets the Bloody Curse.

Sirricco is active at full HP and that is bad news for Brahms.


Quote
Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2)- Tia. Takes a hit.

1o should OHKO pretty easily here. Tia HP more than makes up for her MDef score even under the best scaling for her. (Scaling her to the time she leaves. MDef doesn't matter worth a damn at endgame.)

In this case...Nikki wins if you see her as faster. Good HP+Blocking means that Fogel doesn't get the 2 round on her. However, the ID hits on turn 3. And given how badass turn 1 MK speed is, I'd see her win that.

I thought you confirmed that Sirocco actually was  a limit?

Original Anri has about 70% magical damage. Tia cuts that to 54% with Mdef, and has 64% HP, so she takes the hit with a bit of cushion to spare even.
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superaielman

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #36 on: May 04, 2009, 04:19:04 AM »
I'm not inclined to respect a blocker argument much. She needs to get lucky and evade and hit 30% ID in time and get around the evade.

Sirocco is not a limit, Tonfa confirmed otherwise.
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OblivionKnight

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #37 on: May 04, 2009, 03:32:47 PM »
Godlike:

Tyr (BoFs) vs Brahms (VPs): Brahms.  Tyr 3 is the only one with magic that doesn't suck complete balls that won't die in one hit (Crying Girl has better magic damage than Tyr 1, but no durability, whereas Tyr 1 has no magic worth noting).  Brahms can break through that.
Luca Blight (S2) vs Melfice (G2): Melfice.  Healing hype is fun.
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK): Indalecio.  Way too much durability.
Malik Benedict (WA3) vs Lady (SH3): Lady. 

Heavy:

Deamoned (BoF5) vs Lezard Valeth (VPs): Lezard.  Upgrade to Godlike, Lezard.  Please die, Deamoned.
Nicole Mimi Tithel (MK) vs Fogel (OB): Nicole.  Fast with instant death does it.
Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4): Arnaud. 
Worker 8 (FFT) vs Pamela Ibis (MK): Both sides have good arguments, and I think either view is valid.  I think the most important thing for me here, is that I fucking hate Worker 8 with a passion, and think Pamela is adorable, which trumps anything else here.

Middle:

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4): Kresnik.
Palom (FF4) vs Odessa Silverburg (S1): Palom.
Bowman Jean (SO2) vs Seifer Almasy (FF8): Seifer.  Boss.
Domingo (SF1) vs Kyra Tierny (PS4): Kyra...should survive long enough, I think?  Close.

Light:

Anri (SF1) vs Tia (Lufia 2): Tia.  Healing.
Milon (FF4) vs Gijimu (S2): Milon.  Boss.
Bernadette Egan (S5) vs Cyan Garamonde (FF6): Cyan.  Upgrade, Cyan.
Roger S Huxley (SO3) vs Porom (FF4): Porom.  OUTHEALS THE FAILURE.
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Ultradude

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2009, 03:43:06 PM »
OK's in your Heavy, breakin' your trends.

Geddoe (S3)  vs Arnaud G. Vasquez (WA4): Can't stop the 2HKO.

Kresnik Ahtreide (WA4) vs Cagnazzo (FF4)
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superaielman

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Re: Season 52, Week 3
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2009, 08:52:31 PM »
Indalecio (SO2) vs Isolde Schelling (MK)- Don't see the stun working 100% of the time. Indy is stunnable but he's more resistant than average to that, so don't know how much milage he gets from that. The fight largely hinges on Isolde's durablity- does she survive three normal Indy attacks and an earthquake?
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