Author Topic: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1  (Read 4486 times)

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #25 on: November 24, 2009, 03:54:01 PM »
Because Addition require correct button inputs, and enemies can attempt to counter mid-Addition which LoD characters can overcome by pushing the correct button sequence. I'm aware there are other counters in LoD, but I simply see those as 'better than normal' counters and allow Additions to overcome most counters. *shrugs* It makes enough sense to me and it's interesting.

Then, -what- counters would override LoD additions in your view? That just sounds like a very convenient way to inflate LoD characters because there would be basically no way to solidly decide which counters would be good enough there and by what measure due to the nigh-inexistence of even minimally comparable counter mechanics on other games. Additionally, you could very well, as a counter-argument, say that LoD button counters suck ass and are worse than most counters (which, in practice, is actually true - doesn't even require special offensive characteristics to bypass, which even trash like AtL counters demand, and those very counters are also pretty horrible damage and aren't guaranteed either). I dunno, that feels like far higher a benefit that this kind of mechanic deserves. It'd be like me saying EF characters can bypass DL counters because they can avoid forced evasion in-game by not botching a combo. It might even make sense in a vacuum, but it ends up sorta dumb in practice.
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #26 on: November 25, 2009, 12:29:26 AM »
Because Addition require correct button inputs, and enemies can attempt to counter mid-Addition which LoD characters can overcome by pushing the correct button sequence. I'm aware there are other counters in LoD, but I simply see those as 'better than normal' counters and allow Additions to overcome most counters. *shrugs* It makes enough sense to me and it's interesting.

Then, -what- counters would override LoD additions in your view? That just sounds like a very convenient way to inflate LoD characters because there would be basically no way to solidly decide which counters would be good enough there and by what measure due to the nigh-inexistence of even minimally comparable counter mechanics on other games. Additionally, you could very well, as a counter-argument, say that LoD button counters suck ass and are worse than most counters (which, in practice, is actually true - doesn't even require special offensive characteristics to bypass, which even trash like AtL counters demand, and those very counters are also pretty horrible damage and aren't guaranteed either). I dunno, that feels like far higher a benefit that this kind of mechanic deserves. It'd be like me saying EF characters can bypass DL counters because they can avoid forced evasion in-game by not botching a combo. It might even make sense in a vacuum, but it ends up sorta dumb in practice.

This is a balancing mechanism for me. LoD Addition counter-overriding is tied to player skill and I like to reward DL characters with high levels of player skill input. Games that tend to involve player skill (timed hits, ARPGs) tend to have a lot going against them in the DL (especially thinking of how I view poor ARPG magic-users), so in exchange I give more favorable views to actions tied to player skill. Since LoD characters can suffer penalties for low player skill by getting countered by enemies mid-addition, I feel I should reflect the high-player-skill ability to overcome this with a generous interp.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #27 on: November 25, 2009, 09:49:18 AM »
There are still LoD enemies with more normal style counters that apply. I could see LoD beating out more limited style counters (Which admittedly ST's would fall under). I wouldn't see them bypassing say...FE's (minus range related issues when they apply and such). That said, that makes the match closer, not even an easy win for Meru. This is just the nature of Andarc having a passable buffable physical against Meru's Pdur. You need a lot of calls Meru's way including: Defending, specifically the part where defending restores her HP; Coming into the battle with a few levels of SP; The ability to ignore counters; Not giving Andarc any other Runes (Caveat: While not having status check Meru's MDef. Neither LoD or ST uses Mdef for status checks though); Not adding in part of ST where if someone levels up their SP is restored, since given how many turns Meru will spend defending, Andarc will rack up a lot of EXP (...And the one I even don't like mentioned but will just to illustrate how many issues Meru has here, the taking evasion unscaled).

Although thinking on the limits of LoD enemy counters...there's a chance of countering everything and there's evade and counter. Those are the only ones I know off the top of my head (Mainly because they are features that two ranked bosses have), but even with just the chance of countering everything, LoD counters are a lot less limited than basically most other RPG counters (The ones that even have counters! And I don't think anyone has claimed someone avoiding counters just because their game doesn't have them).

Meru's just kind of a case where even with starting SP levels, she doesn't do well with people who can tank her magic and have physicals. It's just a bad DL translation since the DL puts far more emphasis on Pdur.
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #28 on: November 25, 2009, 11:32:49 AM »
I'd say ... LoD characters bypass counterstance counters maybe? Peppita cries ;_; Then again Djinn uses a different method from the avoid damage with invincibility frames and do counter damage one to determine Peppita's counter in the DL so maybe not!

Meru ... yeah. As much as I consider her best in game PC by far that seriously doesn't translate well to the DL. That sucks but oh well. She still has speed but she can't use Dancer's Shoes/Ring to inflate it and cries because Magic Greaves for all slightly rounds out the speed average. She still has magic but it's weaker and coming up against something that practically doesn't exist in LoD - magic defence. The DL has magic defences oh yes. I say weaker because in game Meru can OHKO Feyrbrand's dragon spirit with Blue Sea dragon (IT'S OVER NINE THOUSAND!!!) thanks to Blue Sea Special and LoD's lovely potent stat up/down items (and she has MP boosting equipment for enemies for those enemies with over 9999 HP or even just powered up Freezing Rings <3) None of those shenanigins here though! She still has Perky Step but not the in game speed advantage that goes with it.

I ... have a lot of respect for Meru but Andarc is teh smex too!

Interesting analysis Dhyer. How does that run if Meru starts full SP from previous Pretty Hammer w/th Cool Boogie abuse?~
« Last Edit: November 25, 2009, 11:42:21 AM by Clear Tranquil »
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #29 on: November 26, 2009, 09:20:53 AM »
Meru starting with full SP still isn't going to win her the match as long as Andarc has those counters. Andarc's solid MDef just ruins Meru too much, since Counters otherwise ruin her trying to play a physical game. It just doesn't work for her to be able to do 50% at best to Andarc (by the lower damage average at that) when that 50% eats 80% of her ability to stop his ridiculous elemental panel game.
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #30 on: November 26, 2009, 12:29:21 PM »
*nods* Thanks!~ Yeah dem's the breaks. People weren't considering elemental panels I don't think! I've accessed duellers based on them in the past so yeah I know how patent they can be. You also allow system uniques like SO3 MP death too though irrc? That makes sense to me!
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #31 on: November 26, 2009, 10:22:15 PM »
I don't allow SO 3 MP death (If I did, I'd see it as a two way system). But given that I'd never seen anyone argue for throwing out WA 4 buffs/debuffs, I don't anyone is anti-ST elemental panels.
...into the nightfall.

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #32 on: November 27, 2009, 07:36:41 PM »
Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Fou-Lu (Breath of Fire IV): Fou-lu ignores Defense and Evade, completely screwing with Ashera.  I think her Magic damage may even be Holy, which screws her over even further.
Arceus (Pokémon) vs Balasz (Wild ARMs 3): Faster, doesn't fail.
Mimi the Wonder Baker (Tales of Legendia) vs Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King): Can't vote.
Medic (Etrian Odyssey) vs Raquel Applegate (Wild ARMs 4): Can't vote.

Heavy

Master Monk (Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete): Can't vote.
Protector (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Garan (Shadow Hearts: Covenant): Can't vote.
Sieg (Tenkai Star)(Suikoden Tierkreis) vs Geddoe (Suikoden III): can't vote.
Rita Mordio (Tales of Vesperia) vs Maxim (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals):  Rita's spell charge time is not insignificant, so Maxim goes first to me,  and that probably decides the slugfest.

Middle

Gunner (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Oswin (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Can't vote.
Gillian Clout (Atelier Annie: Alchemists of Sera Island) vs Raven (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword): Can't vote.
Mistral (.hack Series) vs Lucca (Chrono Trigger): Can't vote.
Andarc (Suikoden Tactics) vs Meru (Legend of Dragoon): Meru mocks Magic, Andarc relies on it...whoops!

Light

Millie Chliette (Star Ocean: First Depature) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss): Pretty sure he can pull off Radiant Howl against that level of offense.
Norma Beatty (Tales of Legendia) vs Raijin (Final Fantasy VIII): Going to assume healing > Raijin.
Jeanne (Jeanne D'Arc) vs Vinsfeld Rhadamanthus (Wild ARMs 2): Can't vote.
HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic) vs Thomas (Suikoden III): Can't vote.
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #33 on: November 27, 2009, 08:56:32 PM »
Godlike

Medic (Etrian Odyssey) vs Raquel Applegate (Wild ARMs 4) - Agree with Tal, it could deserve to be mathed but I think Medic wins a pretty ugly slugfest.

Heavy

Master Monk (Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete) - -ONLY- wins to me due to 3.0x PCHP interp. Unevadable fast solid 2HKOs off good durability aren't Master Monk's cup of tea, usually; 3x makes Unscarred -just- enough to stave it off. Wow.
Protector (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Garan (Shadow Hearts: Covenant) - *tink tink tink*

Middle

Gunner (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Oswin (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - Messy slaughter.
Andarc (Suikoden Tactics) vs. Meru (Legend of Dragoon) - Gutcheck is Meru hates Andarc something fierce.

Light

HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic) vs Thomas (Suikoden III) - Kneejerking Thomas but I really don't remember KoToR that well.

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #34 on: November 28, 2009, 12:35:29 AM »
Andarc (Suikoden Tactics) vs Meru (Legend of Dragoon): Meru mocks Magic, Andarc relies on it...whoops!

...Andarc's damages:
Physical: 182 (146 Base, 24.7% Crit Rate)
Level 2: Thunder Runner- 158 to center hex+Marginal to Surrouding Square, 35% Stun (178 w/ M Robe).
Level 3: Berserk Blow- 235 damage, 20% charge time (255 w/ Magic Robe).

Not like it's particularly relevant, but Meru's Mdurability:
4. Meru 1.02

Andarc's physical is strong enough that it's about as notable as his magic overall. He has a 75% Counter rate with it. Meru's Magic Durability is below average. Untransformed she runs screaming from physicals.
...into the nightfall.

Clear Tranquil

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #35 on: November 28, 2009, 02:57:33 PM »
Yeah it's confusing though where in game Kongol takes like 3000+ from the final's strong spell and where Meru does indeed mock magic to an extent. So people can be forgiven for handwaving or forgetting. However Andarc indeed does have passable physicals for a mage (like Meru! ;o) with the bonus of counters and not even teh CTs are going to hype Meru as having teh HPs or being physically tanky~


I don't allow SO 3 MP death (If I did, I'd see it as a two way system). But given that I'd never seen anyone argue for throwing out WA 4 buffs/debuffs, I don't anyone is anti-ST elemental panels.

Ditto~
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #36 on: November 28, 2009, 06:58:23 PM »
Gillian Clout (Atelier Annie: Alchemists of Sera Island) vs Raven (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - She's going first and not getting doubled or countered. Should be well above average on accuracy too so no evade hype for Raven. Haven't done the math but I feel confident she wins the slugfest here.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #37 on: November 29, 2009, 05:19:13 AM »
Godlike

Ashera (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Fou-Lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Arceus (Pokémon) vs Balasz (Wild ARMs 3)
Mimi the Wonder Baker (Tales of Legendia) vs Empyrea (Dragon Quest VIII: Journey of the Cursed King)- Kneejerk.
Medic (Etrian Odyssey) vs Raquel Applegate (Wild ARMs 4)- No vote.

Heavy

Master Monk (Final Fantasy Tactics A2: Grimoire of the Rift) vs Hiro (Lunar: Eternal Blue Complete)- No vote.
Protector (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Garan (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)- No vote.
Sieg (Tenkai Star)(Suikoden Tierkreis) vs Geddoe (Suikoden III)- That Geddoe 2HKOs with spammable fast fast damage does Sieg in, as far as me and Tal could figure.
Rita Mordio (Tales of Vesperia) vs Maxim (Lufia 2: Rise of the Sinistrals)- More reflex testing.

Middle

Gunner (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Oswin (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- No vote.
Gillian Clout (Atelier Annie: Alchemists of Sera Island) vs Raven (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword)- Gillian handle's Raven's evade well enough but she'd need to evade herself here and we don't think that happens much in Annie.
Mistral (.hack Series) vs Lucca (Chrono Trigger)- No vote.
Andarc (Suikoden Tactics) vs Meru (Legend of Dragoon)- Hummmmm.  Eh, sure.

Light

Millie Chliette (Star Ocean: First Depature) vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss)- I... think.
Norma Beatty (Tales of Legendia) vs Raijin (Final Fantasy VIII)- I seem to recall Norma's healing being of the MT 40% variety.  With her damage Raijin will get a good space of time during which he outpaces that.
Jeanne (Jeanne D'Arc) vs Vinsfeld Rhadamanthus (Wild ARMs 2)- No vote.
HK-47 (Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic) vs Thomas (Suikoden III)- If I understood KotOR's mechanics correctly, taking him against the PC averages for accuracy and evade yields this result by slim virtue of Thomas going first.  If there were some enemy stats to work with that proved inferior to the PC average he probably takes this.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2009, 10:24:05 PM by Cmdr_King »
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #38 on: November 29, 2009, 08:37:47 AM »
Each point of attack is worth 5% accuracy, each point of defense is worth 5% evade. HK is 40% above average accuracy and 45% above average evade.

Thomas's 5HKO damage and below average durability are totally failing him when his evade doesn't really work. Isn't it nerfed vs. all ranged attacks, in addition to HK being really accurate?

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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #39 on: November 29, 2009, 06:25:06 PM »
Godlike

Medic (Etrian Odyssey/Team Fortress 2) vs Raquel Applegate (Wild ARMs 4) - Immunize + Blutsauger Caduceus~!

Heavy

Protector (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Garan (Shadow Hearts: Covenant)

Middle

Gunner (Etrian Odyssey 2: Heroes of Lagaard) vs Oswin (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) - CK you sent up a spoiler for someone with
a Jack Frost pin on their hat, this is very Ko

Light

Millie Chliette (Star Ocean: First Depature)
vs Luke fon Fabre (Tales of the Abyss) - There is no SO1o
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #40 on: November 29, 2009, 07:04:29 PM »
That's essentially the numbers I came up with, but that leads to 60% evade and 120% accuracy.  Thomas has 70% evade (Parry works fine on ranged weapons) and, if I can read Dhyer correctly, 135% accuracy.  HK can take an extra hit due to good HP, Thomas dies in one less hit (remember, HK is half average damage) due to poor HP, so it all worked out to both killing on turn 7, and due to how KotOR handles initiative I felt that Thomas being marginally above average speed was the greater claim to going first.

As I said though, this supposes that the average endgame enemy has comperable dex/strength (as appropriate) and defense to the PC cast average (Since ultimately, like FE games, real accuracy and evade is entirely dependant on enemy stats rather than native to characters/attacks, and that's how we calculate FE accuracy/evade).  So it could be that enemies suck at these things and I'm undervaluing HK here.  But my impression is that the endgame is predominantly Dark Jedi and Droids, so I SUSPECT it's not too far off.  I do wish I could have found the relevant stats, in speaking with people it seems almost certain that they are out there ripped from the game since it came to the PC.
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Re: Tourney of Interest Season 10?! Week 1
« Reply #41 on: November 29, 2009, 10:17:46 PM »
Andarc. Has the durability/damage to outlast Meru.
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