Author Topic: Split Discussion: SD3 MVP Discussion  (Read 2262 times)

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Split Discussion: SD3 MVP Discussion
« on: March 28, 2008, 07:50:12 AM »
Whoo, minor debate post. If it turns into anything major it can be moved, etc.

Quote
Hawk.  Yes, Buff PCs can be replaced by items...which means Lise gets covered only.  Getting items for Debuffing is much harder, and Hawk has other tricks paired with good offense at any moment.

You're ignoring that debuffing can be replaced with Lise (if it's so much more valuable than stat ups, she'd never go Star Lancer unless Hawk was in the party, but IIRC you consider Star Lancer the better choice, despite 60% of Lise parties not including Hawk...), but that's not the point.

What is the point is that I'm baffled you can claim debuffs make Hawk better than Kevin. For the first third of the game, Hawk has no spells at all so Kevin completely kicks his ass due to offence and HP. Then they both hit tier 2. Debuffs make Kevin vs. Hawk an arguable affair for bosses, I grant (more smash vs. crippling them unless they absorb the appropriate jutsu), but for randoms, ST stat downs kinda suck, so Kevin still wins. Kevin wins bosses for about a third of the game (and is competitive the rest of the way), wins randoms for like 85% of it, so I can't see how he's losing overall.
« Last Edit: March 29, 2008, 09:17:59 PM by OblivionKnight »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Two-Minute Game Reviews: Revived!
« Reply #1 on: March 29, 2008, 01:57:33 AM »
Quote
Best PC in-game: Kevin. I press attack button and things die! Yay! (And yes, I know I play Seiken wrong. Shut up.)

Nah, that is how you play SD3.  Stuff with my Hawk babble is mostly about making that easier.  There is even a good chunk of enemies at the end of SD3 that hammer this point with OH GODS MT STRONG 2HKO counters to any magic, pray that they don't use it twice.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Ranmilia

  • Poetry Lover
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1687
  • Not a squid!!
    • View Profile
Re: Two-Minute Game Reviews: Revived!
« Reply #2 on: March 29, 2008, 03:56:16 AM »
Pretty much every enemy past earlygame SD3 hammers this point with OH GODS MT STRONG 2HKO counters to any magic or tech, have Kevin or spend ages chipping or die.

Fixed.

Grefter

  • Villain.
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 10386
  • True and Honest. Smarter. More aggressive.
    • View Profile
Re: Two-Minute Game Reviews: Revived!
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2008, 07:33:56 AM »
If not having Kevin makes you have to chip those enemies to death then you have chosen your party synergy poorly, there is many ways around it.  And there isn't many enemies that do it until the final areas.  There is bosses ie Bill and Ben and there is other Ninja Masters, who are ST 2HKO OH NOES.

Get your facts right and don't exagerate it.
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
The king perfect of the DL is and always will be Excal. - Superaielman
Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
Gravellers are like, G-Unit - Trancey.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Two-Minute Game Reviews: Revived!
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2008, 08:08:18 AM »
The enemies that counter techs aren't particularly common and are intended as magic spoilers; Angela is generally seen as a respectable PC and all that.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dunefar

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1222
  • Wuffy-wuff-wuff!
    • View Profile
Re: Split Discussion: Why SD3 sucks?
« Reply #5 on: March 29, 2008, 02:33:23 PM »
Split discussion time.
* Infinite_Ko_Loop is now known as Ko-CidisnotaPrincess
<Nephrite> That is depressing.
<CmdrKing> I know.  Cid would makea  great princess.

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: Split Discussion: Why SD3 sucks?
« Reply #6 on: March 29, 2008, 09:11:44 PM »
While I don't disapprove of moving the topic, the title feels like borderline trolling and is NOT what this topic is about, can you please change it?
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

OblivionKnight

  • Boom! Big reveal: I'm a pickle. What do you think about that?
  • Global Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2999
  • I'm Pickle Rick!
    • View Profile
Re: Split Discussion: SD3 MVP Discussion
« Reply #7 on: March 29, 2008, 09:18:28 PM »
Actually, I fully agree.  I just saw the topic, and was a bit appalled at the name.  It's been changed. 
[11:53] <+Meeple_Gorath> me reading, that's a good one

[19:26] * +Terra_Condor looks up. Star Wars Football, what?
[19:27] <+Terra_Condor> Han Kicks First?
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Vader intercepts.
[19:27] <%Grefter-game> Touchdown and Alderaan explodes in the victory

Meeplelard

  • Fire Starter
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5356
    • View Profile
Re: Two-Minute Game Reviews: Revived!
« Reply #8 on: March 29, 2008, 10:38:53 PM »
The enemies that counter techs aren't particularly common and are intended as magic spoilers; Angela is generally seen as a respectable PC and all that.

Pretty much true.  List of enemies that actually counter stuff with something noteworthy offhand (excluding bosses):

Ninja Masters w/ Shadow Dive (not threatening; even if there is two, they usually target the same PC twice even if the PC dies due to how the game lags Deaths a bit), found in Navarre and the Fire Dungeon.
Nightblades with Split Image Slice (actually threatening!), found in Glass Desert and Dark Cave.
Queen Bees w/ Light Shot Spear (threatening, especially since they can use Power Up as well, and thus OHKO you without a second though), found in...whatever the name of the place you fight Mispolm in.
The lesser version of Queen Bees (think they're called Lady Bees or something?) have Vacuum Spear, and Power Up, but are generally much less threatening and you'll often not see them do it since they die,  but they're there.
Black Fangs w/ Water Moon Slice (ST, thus not threatening), found in Beast Kingdom
Silver Wolves with 100 Genbu Kick (ST, so again, not threatening), found in Beast Kingdom and Moon Reading tower (Note that Silver Wolves are a pain in the ass but NOT for damage reasons; its cause they are randoms with MT Heal Light and they like to spam it)
Bloody Wolves w/ Suzaku Sky Dance (Threatening and painful), found in Moon Reading Tower and Dark Cave
Wolf Devils w/ Seiryuu Death Fist (see above!), found in Forest of Illusions, I believe its called (area outside of Mirage Palace), and I think MIrage Palace itself.
Sword Knights w/ Whirlwind Cut (not that threatening, actually, since the attack isn't that strong, despite MT), found in Cave of Winds or whatever its called and Rolante.
Sword Masters w/ Vacuum Sword (Mildly Threatening, but not THAT painful; mostly just something you need to watch out for so they don't nail you with it when you have low health), found in the Ice Cave, whatever that's called.
Dark Lords w/ Eruption (Probably the most threatening counter a random has in the game, this thing hurts like hell if you've ever eaten one), found in Dragon's Hole.

A few other randoms counter with Magic, but beyond maybe Death Machines and their MT Silence + damage move, its nothing too threatening.

Either way, the counters are often exaggerated, and easy to avoid.

...oh, right, I left off Shadow Zeros, didn't I?  Well, how threatening they are depends on who they turn into.  An Angela Shadow Zero is one of the most laughable things around unless you idiotically provoke a counter over and over again and never heal (but that's your own idiocy), or are playing an SCC.  Meanwhile, a Duran Shadow Zero is scary as hell (unless he's a Lord), since its High Powered FST.  Note that Kevin always has a Throw Tech and its Human Kevin they mimic, so Shadow Zero's mimicing Kevin aren't as threatening as you'd think (actually, Vanadis Lise is more threatening than any of Kevin's Shadow Zero forms for that reason alone.)
(For that matter, yay! Another reason to bash the Vanadis! <_< >_>)

In any event, its not counters that get level 2/3 techs bashed anyway (if that's one of the train of thoughts here).  Its the fact that you get far more bang for your buck, ESPECIALLY in Kevin and Hawk's case, using Level 1's, AND they can hit multiple enemies too if timed properly.
In fact, 2 level 1 Techs does more damage than a level 3, and takes the same amount of actions (Level 3 is 9 Attacks, 2 level 1's is 8 attacks, but requires two uses of the tech, hence same deal.)  Its just an overkill comparison with Hawk's Back Slash and Kevin's Ashura Dream Fist since their Level 1's hit twice like their physicals, something their Level 2/3's don't factor into their multipliers (making Hawk and Kevin effectively having level 3's on their level 1's)
THEN there's the fact that Level 1's take Saber benefits into account, something level 2/3's do not.  The Counter thing is more just an added penalty more so than the meat of the argument.

FSTs are useless for that reason, unless you have Aura Wave.  By the time you built up a level 2 or 3 tech, the enemies are for the most part nearly dead anyway, so the hype they get isn't worth much.  Granted, in rooms where enemies spawn, that's a different story, but those are the exception, more often than not, enemies do not spawn.  Its true that an FST > ST Tech, but it doesn't save a classes worth like some will claim.  For that matter, all of Lise's classes have a level 2 FST which is why the Vanadis level 3 FST is meaningless; the level 2 kills things dead anyway, and comes off faster...

...yeah, just finding reasons to bash the Vanadis, don't mind me <_< >_>
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A