Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 75

[Glen Veil]

Copied from when my Cecilia team was in the dungeon:

As for where Cecilia is at in the Dungeon, Wild Arms has 30 none optional dungeons in game, so she goes through 4 and a half dungeons per floor which looks something like:

Floor 1: Prologues, Lolithia's Tomb, Secret Passage, Mountain Pass
Floor 2: Guardian Shrine, Mt. Zenom, Cage Tower, Maze of Death, Sand River
Floor 3: Pleasing Garden, Ghost Ship, Volcannon Trap, Tripillar
Floor 4: Giants Cradle, Epitaph Sea, Sacred Shrine, Photosphere, Dragon Shrine
Floor 5: (Cecilia can learn Hi-Magic at this point) Wandering Isle, Dead Sanctuary, Demons Lab, Gate Generator
Floor 6: (The clue to getting Holy Parasol comes at this point)Forest Prison, De Le Metallica, Gemini's Corpse, Pandemonium
Floor 7: Artica Castle, Ka Dingle, all of Malduke

Honestly, it's not really a judgement call at all to me that it's floor 6.  It's basically in the middle of the list for floor 6 and that is with the 3 prologue dungeons being grouped together.

[SnowFire]

dude: Interesting.  I assumed from the Bulbapedia page that it meant "Gen 3 and beyond" or the like.  Someone should edit the Transform description to be clearer.  I don't think it matters much anyway, as the worse durability means that Ditto risks getting KOed anyway.  Apparently Auto-Potion triggers just once vs. Two Swords, so it probably only triggers once vs. Ghaleon's double-acts too (although it's debatable).

Team dude | Cecilia, Ramza, Worker 8 (Firefly), Kyra, Ditto
[Ramza: Samurai, Item, Attack UP, Auto Potion]
Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)

Right, so Ghaleon vs. dude.  Easier since it's just a slugfest with no buffs in play or anything.

Samurai Ramza: .61 PCHP an Attack UP attack.
Cecilia: .26 PCHP endgame w/ Necronomicon.  Which is kind of quasi-legal to me even at endgame.  But sure whatever.  (Possible that Jack & Rudy have enough worse options now that Cecilia's Hi-Spell damage is comparatively better for a bit anyway.)
Kyra: I don't know PS4 but at endgame she's .37 PCHP, possibly a tad less since the stat topic average ignores OPB stuff that'd come up in a 3-turn average.  Call it .35 PCHP.
Ditto: Probably does want to become Ramza.
W8: .41 PCHP when not inflicting self-damage.  More if he can afford HP.

Ditto transform / Ramza attack / Cecilia attack / Kyra attack / coin-flip between W8 and Ghaleon, maybe W8 damage, then Worm Crush x2 on W8.

Total dude damage: 1.24 PCHP (+W8 damage?)

I would have thought that W8 survived Ghaleon's combos thanks to Defence UP, but actually he doesn't because Worm Crush is that physical teleport move that hits an area, so W8 takes 3x damage from each one and goes down.  As for who goes first...  well Worker 8 is slower than Dragon Cane Mia, so it's hard to say.  W8 also is slow in a CTB system with doubles so it's quite possible Ghaleon is faster here.  Also, on second thought, since Worm Crush exists it's probably not worth trying to revive W8.  He's slow and won't get a turn and can be cleaned up by Worm Crush, not worth a Ramza turn.

Round 2: Ditto attack / Ramza attack / Cecilia attack / Kyra attack / Tornado-> Hell Wave (Tornado guaranteed MT and to bring people together for the Hell Wave) for .81 PCHP MT damage

Total dude damage: 1.24 PCHP + (W8?) + 1.83 PCHP = 3.07 PCHP (+W8?)

Ditto dies, Ramza might have had Auto-Potion kick in, everyone else is in trouble such that it's probably not worth going defensive - have Kyra heal Ramza if need be and hope he can solo at this point.

Round 3: Ramza / Cecilia / Kyra (?) attack, possibly having Kyra heal Ramza if needed.  Ghaleon wipes out Kyra & Cecilia.

Total dude damage: 3.07 PCHP (+W8?) + .87 + (Kyra?) = 3.94 + (W8?) + (Kyra?)

Round 4 Ramza hits Ghaleon again for .61 PCHP damage, and may well get a double, so hits Ghaleon for 1.22 PCHP damage before Ghaleon kills him with 3x physical.  The point is Ghaleon just took ~5 PCHP damage, possibly more if W8 and Kyra got in additional damage.  That should be plenty to take him down.

Yup, vote for dude to pass stands.

[dude789]

If you don't see auto potion as interrupting Ghaleon's two actions allowing Ditto to survive, then his best option is probably to turn into Cecilia. Cecilia Mdef gives Ditto the durability needed to survive Ghaleon's turn if he spams MT stuff and the two can spam Remedy so Ramza and Kyra can focus on offense without having to worry about Ghaleon's attacks. Also since Ghaleon is spamming MT skills then Cecilia should be gaining FP at a fair rate. I'm not sure how much good it's going to do, but it could help if you give her a few Mega Berries for mystic.   

[SnowFire]

On second thought, RandomConsonant pointed out something in chat - the Samurai damage figures in the FFT stat topic assume Two-Hands.  But Two-Hands is not innate to Samurai.  Samurai can't equip Shields, either.  So...  Attack UP is pretty much strictly worse than Two Hands unless I'm missing something.

Assuming Ramza is really using Two Hands not Attack UP, that's .46 PCHP damage he's actually emitting (if we pretend that Floor 5 Samurai has the same damage output as at endgame).  This will hurt Ditto's mimic'd turns, too, if he transforms into Ramza.  So...   losing ~1 PCHP or so over the entire fight.  Which is still enough to kill Ghaleon to me (I see him as around 4 PCHP, and there's the Kyra / W8 potential turns in there to strongly tiebreak in dude's favor), but this might make some of the earlier fights more questionable now.

[Random Consonant]

Samurai Ramza's damage is more in the neighbourhood of 0.33 PCHP due to Samurai not having innate Two Hands and the katana damage formula failing at life (assuming Attack Up as listed here, obviously) (may not be quite this figure, since I'm basing this off of endgame numbers, but it should come fairly close).  Draw Out might be slightly better on damage if one seems Muramasas being storebought at this time but I don't think I do.  Meanwhile I am also inclined to view Ceci's damage as even less than what Snowfire is pegging it as since the stat topic also gives Ceci Raftina and her +30% SOR boost which I find questionable for F5 even if I allowed it, which I don't think I do.  Granted Jack and maybe Rudy suffer as a result of this and probably make the end result not *that* much worse but eh.  That said the issue of Mystic came up in chat and Neph said no since it wasn't factored into Ceci's cost, so if taken as definitive ruling that leaves her with the much more costly Extend to cover the MT healing.

Not sure enough to cast a vote at this point, but it's pretty uphill for dude's team.

[dude789]

Hey Neph, I didn't know about Two Hands not being innate and the stat topic didn't really indicate one way or the other, would it be alright if I swapped from Attack Up to Two Hands?

[Nephrite]

I think it's fair to let you switch based on that, yes. I will switch it in the writeup.

[dude789]

Alright so there are a couple of judgement calls on this floor so I'll post an analysis for the case where Cecilia doesn't have Necornomicon/Parasol  and double acting characters don't trigger auto potion till the end of both their turns. This also assumes that Ditto can only acquire 4 skills from whoever he turns into.

Team dude vs. Ryu1, Nina4 and Ness
I thought about this one for a bit and I think the simplest strategy for the team is for Ditto to transform into Nina and Ramza to use Bizen Boat to kill Ness and Nina's mp. That means that after the first turn the turn order should be something like Nina4->Ditto Nina->Ryu->Kyra->Ramza->Ceci->Ness->Worker. Average mp at endgame for FFT generics is ~60 and Bizen Boat does 24. Nina and especially Ness both have a ton of MP so it probably takes around 4-5 to take out Nina's MP and 5-6 to take out Ness's but Ceci can help out with MP Drain if she finds an opening. With this order, Ceci and Ditto Nina are splitting Ryu and Ness's turns with MT healing so the enemy offense is pretty much neutralized. Ramza takes out Ness's MP which should happen right before Ditto runs out of Vigors and with Ness's offense reduced to ST, Ditto can swap to Vitalize and Restore instead. Once enemy Nina is out of MP, the team takes out Ness and Ryu and heals up.
     
Team dude vs. Mitsuo the Hero, Adachi and Shadow Teddie
More simple than the above. All of them are slowish and Teddie and Mitsuo don't get their big damage till later. Vorpal blade takes out Worker, but the other two can't really do much. Ceci heals up any damage they do and the team takes down Adachi on the second round. Teddie and Mitsuo aren't a threat beyond that.

Team dude vs. Zog and Sarah
This fight would be more dangerous if the two weren't so slow. As it is now, my team get's about two full turns to wail on Zog and Sarah before they can really start to threaten the rest of the team. Ditto's best option is to turn into Kyra who's pumping out about .55 PCHP each round because of the magic weakness. Zog Breath+Sarah physical doesn't quite take out Worker 8, but it comes close, probably enough to force him to use a basic physical instead of his Work skills. On their second turn, Zog and Sarah can combine to take someone out and heavily damage the rest of the team but Zog will be at death's door. By that time he will have taken 2 Ceci Spells, 2 Ramza hits, 3 Kyra spells (2 Kyra + 1 Ditto), and 3 Worker 8 hits (2 regular + 1 counter attack) This comes out to be around 4.6 PCHP and I've got Zog at around 5 PCHP. Next turn Ditto, Kyra and if necessary Worker finish him off while Ramza Murasames to stop Sarah from taking out anyone. Sarah's not threatening by herself so the team recovers and regroups.

Team dude vs. Holly and Delphi
Easier than the last one. Delphi and Holly have less health than Zog and Sarah and require 3 of their 4 attacks to really take out anyone. 1st turn the team focus fires on Delphi and should be able to take her out by the end of the second round. The two witches might take out Ceci or someone, but Delphi is going down immediately after and Holly can't deal with the team by herself. They heal Up before eventually finishing the fight.

Team dude vs. Ghaleon (SSC)
Snowfire's analysis works. I think Ditto turning into Ceci might be a slightly better option because it allows Kyra and Ramza an extra action or two, but the difference won't be too substantial. Snowfire's analysis also throws out doubles as well which could edge to fight a bit more in my favor and the fight becomes much easier if Ceci gets the Necronomicon or Auto Potion activates in between Ghaleon's actions.

[Random Consonant]

Tenative pass for dude's team.  It's slow but the fights don't really demand speedy cleanup.

[DjinnAndTonic]

Jo'ou passes.

Yoshiken fails. I give LoD characters starting SP, so Ephraim has to waste his turn on Shana and the Eiko murder parade begins.

dude passes. I'm a bit lenient on WA floors, so Ceci likely has the Necronomicon or Parasol here. I can also buy a W8 tiebreak in his favor.

Monkey... fails. I just can't see his team getting past the final two boss rushes. I don't think there's enough ways to charge up Rikku's Overdrive or Virginia's FP for the tricks he'll need. Those two rely on evadeable physicals for most of their durability, too. A lucky shot anywhere likely screws over any intricate plan there.

[ThePiggyman]

OMG FLOOR 1 HAS SINSPAWN AMMES, SO OVERPOWER-*shot*
Yeah, Jo'ou passes pretty easily. Zerase chucks Meteors everywhere and very few people get up.

Still looking things over, but I'm not sure the result will change. Probably a fail for Team Yoshi. Regrettably just not enough offense on the team.

Team dude passes. I've never played Wild Arms, so I can't make a call one way or the other about the Necronomicon and stuff, but I think they pass regardless. The first fight might not go down very quickly, but I think it's manageable nonetheless. Worker 8 doubtlessly dies a couple of times, but he can be revived.

And, as for Team Monkey... Well, he has trouble keeping up with Mascot Yuna in my eyes, and the last two fights are boss rushes without the benefit of a full heal. Since a Full Heal officially means a Reset, Rikku can't build up an Overdrive for the boss fights either, and these aren't really bosses that you can spend time building an Overdrive against. Still, Rikku doesn't need Overdrives to help; MT full healing w/ Healing Water means the bosses can't bumrush Virginia, and I'm not sure any boss can actually OHKO her, so that helps! However, I am being told that, with Virginia's current Mediums, her only status healing consumes all her FP. So, Team Monkey probably loses against a durable boss w/ status. Which there are a couple of in the boss rushes, at least. Leaning fail for Team Monkey.

[Dhyerwolf]

[Love Charm, Brave Seal and Fiery Rage]
[Floor 8: Maze of Trials]
*Virginia has been granted Full Libra
*KOS-MOS has been granted Double Buster
Team Monkey vs. Mascot Yuna (FFX-2)- X-2 speeds are so weird. Moogle Beam can take out Virginia though. So rushing potential...I guess I would not see Str Up and Hyper stacking. So...can't really buff the same offensive stat effectively, but only one of the other of KOS-MOS. Still...doubled X-Buster under Ether Limit does 2.6 PC HP. Rikku...really can't add much as once, but has a lot of hits. Virginia isn't really in a magic bam setup, although Devastate is certainly decent ST. Of course, all this needs turns of setup. However, Reflect should cover Doom/Death at the least? So Yuna is limited to sniping with Moogle Beam or perhaps Black Sky against Rikku if Shell is not up.

I guess orderwise Rikku should Reflect herself, Reflect KOS-MOS, haste self and then teammates. This does give Yuna time to snipe her. Virginia can use of course revive, but at 1 HP, needs Rikku to go again before Yuna. Overall, this fight is just kind of messy. They don't really have the ability to completely rush at once since that level of damage just is not there. Just looking at the other fights too assuming they get through this.

Team Monkey vs. Zeromus, Exdeath and Chaos
Team Monkey vs. Boss Timelord and Belial (No 4D Pocket)- Haha. AL BHED POTION CURES Stone. Virginia casts Status Lock on Rikku, KOS-MOS uses an X-Buster (should kill Belial but not trigger TL's limit). Self buff KOS-MOS, go to town.
*Full Heal
Team Monkey vs. Luther (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced with Cyril and Indalecio, then again with Xorn, then again with Profound Darkness)- Well, Luther is lol, then Cyril and Indy at least have some starting damage to prevent endless stalling. PD can certainly KO Virginia at base FP (She can buff FP for the dangers of Xorn; Cyril+Indy can too). PD's physical at one point is ITE too (As crit's were?)
Team Monkey vs. Myria 1 (When defeated, all buffs and debuffs applied after the start of the fight are removed and CT is reset, and is replaced Deathevans and Barubary, then Myria 3, then with Fou-lu)- Status starts coming in more here (and ID too). A lot of stuff where reflectability may get questionable (Stuff like evil eye). Gut reaction on the team is not passing. Either fight 1 or somewhere in the effectively 8 fight string gets them (Although...I'm not sure how the 8 fight string is supposed to scale. If I'm assuming full CT reset for everyone, but they are supposed to get their full HP. The reset hurts Rikku and Virginia- no extra FP, which would be nice. I was also assuming that Nall is only kicking in between PD and Myria 1).

[Nephrite]

There is no HP/MP reset. It is essentially just like a chain battle except without buffs. I should probably remove "debuffs" since I didn't mean for it to apply to things like petrify or whatnot.

[SnowFire]

So Virginia would keep FP gained from battle-to-battle (a la Nega Filgaia) but buffs magically fall off?

Anyway I'd actually vote pass on Monkey's team if Virginia had all WA3 magic available.  If her status-healing requires blowing FP, though, that's bad.  Sure, some of the final bosses have status, but more importantly Yuna has both Break & Doom.  Virginia is not going to stand alone beside a petrified Rikku & petrified KOS.  Faililng that, there's also dropping Doom on one of them, then Death at the right time afterward.

So call it a fail on team Monkey for now.  If it turns out Virginia can heal status without blowing FP, I may change my vote.

Random thoughts on Team Yoshi.

Team Yoshiken | Yoshiken | Ephraim (Body Charge), Alicia, Eiko, Gilder, Jessica [Nall]
[Floor 4: Diff'rent Strokes]
Team Yoshiken vs. Hahn, Tia, Gadwin, Luna, Mareg and Shana
Don't give Shana starting SP.  Ephraim exterminates Luna, but can Tia distract with Sleep or whatever?  Hahn has ID but I assume it's ST, and MT speed debuffing.  Maybe Eiko can status him?  Ah but PS4 status-halving.  Hrm.  If Alicia doesn't have Invoke Feather yet by now after all, that does complicate things a lot, as offing Eiko / Jessica seems quite doable.

Team Yoshiken vs. Palom, Porom, Edward, Cid and Yang
Lots of status, but not much Twins respect.  If the first fight did knock Eiko & Jessica out, then the two speedsters can off 'em again.  Although...  that actually doesn't matter.  Leave Cid alive, subsist on Alicia healz, let Nall eventually revive a healer in-battle, then heal up to full.

Team Yoshiken vs. Albel, Adray, Roger Huxley, Noel and Chisato
Yeah, team Yoshi can't chew threw all of them fast enough to avoid Eiko's MP from getting nuked.  That's a problem, but the later fights are easier.

Team Yoshiken vs. Yumei, Badrach, Aelia, Lorenta and Grey
Team Yoshi needs to kill two of them to stop Great Magic + total death of somebody.  Eph kills one, but Eiko & Alicia are average speed, and Gilder isn't OHKOing even Yumei.  Maaaybe with midgame Jessica physical hype? 
 I guess.  Somebody non-Ephraim still dies but it doesn't matter.

Team Yoshiken vs. Worker 8, FFT Cloud, Beowulf, Olan, Alma and Reis
No idea.  Eiko's basically dead weight but Eph is still offing a person a round and is hard to touch even if the rest of the team falls apart.

Call it an abstain for now.  Think Yoshi does have an argument to pass here but it's the first three fights that are tricky.

[dude789]

Finalizing votes, my team and Jo'ou's team pass, abstain on Yoshi, Monkey fails.