Author Topic: Tactics Ogre BS(feat. Macho Man Randy Savage)  (Read 2895 times)

Luther Lansfeld

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Tactics Ogre BS(feat. Macho Man Randy Savage)
« on: May 24, 2013, 03:48:32 AM »
I am as big of a fan of Tactics Ogre as anyone, but I felt like the plot goes off the rails on a crazy train toward the end and the new translation didn't change that. Barbas's plan is so goofy and there is very little to allude that he was going to do this or that the potential even existed...? I think TO has the one of the worst endgame plots I've ever seen in fact.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 03:08:54 PM by Luther Lansfeld »
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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #1 on: May 24, 2013, 07:56:35 AM »
It wasn't really alluded in the plot but was more of a plot twist, the guy history wrote as a hero everywhere got actually corrupted. (Like... Jebediath Springfield!) Otherwise they tell that the knights of Lodis are there for the treasure more than the island soon enough.

I'm fine with Barbas' plan because he wasn't really the guy who cared about his own safety (He beat a superior to death), he hated Lans' guts and used any occasion to overthrow him, he thought he could handle this hell shit better than Dolgare, especially with an army, and he got desperate towards the end with his entire army destroyed.
I wish they had used gold mines or something as a better mac guffin than the gates of hell, but hey, gotta make concessions to Epicness.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 08:14:19 AM by Fenrir »

SnowFire

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #2 on: May 24, 2013, 09:14:48 AM »
Since this has become TO plot discussion...  Niu had a pretty good explanation when I brought up the same thing, which is making it more explicit that Barbas & Martym aren't exactly "betraying" their orders.  Everyone thought the Knights of Lodis were there to establish a friendly puppet state, and Lans T. actually *did* want to establish the friendly puppet state which is why he spent all the time searching for & recruiting Catiua.  But their actual orders were to unleash the Hell Gate, gain ultimate power for Lodis in some vague way, and Lans just thought those orders were stupid and would make up some BS about not being able to do it but hey check out this compliant puppet I set up in the meantime.  Hence Martym mouthing off about how Lans was stalling and he could have opened it up ages ago with the Xenobian super-sword.

The slightly odd thing is that if the "revolt" is spun that way, you'd almost expect Balexphon to go along with, since he comes across as the biggest buds with the coup leaders in the backstory.  But sure, these situations are weird, so maybe he felt loyalty to the Dark Knights chain of command was more important than loyalty to their mission, sure, so whatever Lans says.

The actual ending is weird in that whatever Martym & Barbas's plan was, they clearly thought they could get ultimate power on the cheap real fast or something with Denam's army breathing down their necks.  But hey, TO is willing to have villains make mistakes, so I guess this is one of them.

I suppose what I'm saying is that I don't mind TO's final plot too much.  It's less jarring than FFT's switch from politics to demons, and only occupies a small amount of gameplay, and it still has some minor political threads.  (If I'm going to rant about TO's plot, it's some of the earlier stuff, actually.  C3 Law has some issues.)

Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #3 on: May 24, 2013, 05:50:32 PM »
Yeah I agree!
Interesting bit about the dark knights. I was wondering why they kinda acted as still loyal to Lodis after betraying Lans, but didn't think about it much.
Balxephon didn't get to make the choice, Martym and Barbas chose for him. I can understand them not talking about their plans to everybody, even close minded people.

Next on PS4: Suikogre
We find out that Lodis and Harmonia from Suikoden are the same country and the entire game takes place there. It's the final game in both series.
The main character is the illegitimate daughter of Catiua and Caesar Silverberg. Hugo gets killed by Balxephon in the prologue. Romance between my TO griffons and FUBAR. Soloing the game with Kogoro gives you a trophy.

The pope looks like the final boss at first but as you kill him you realize that there are 7 other popes (including Yuber and bad ending Tristan) + one mysterious arch-pope.
« Last Edit: May 24, 2013, 05:54:32 PM by Fenrir »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #4 on: May 24, 2013, 05:53:56 PM »
Also, Mel and Deneb have a support.
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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #5 on: May 24, 2013, 10:13:05 PM »
Ace spends the whole game hitting on the four sisters in the Liberation Front.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2013, 12:33:04 AM »
Snowfire, well, any explanation that relies on out of game stuff is pretty suspect, and in-game their betrayal and actions come out of absolutely nowhere. I recall no indication about any sort of "hell gate" before they actually open it, and it is never made clear what they seek to accomplish by opening it. It is far, far worse than FFT. To be equivalent to FFT, it would have to be "at the end of the game, Kletian betrays Vormav and steals his zodiac stone, and goes to use it in a plot to resurrect Balbanes Beoulve who is actually a demon". Except that would still be better than TO because at least it was well-established that zodiac stones had such powers, unlike Dorguala's sword. It's a complete derail and comes off as complete nonsense to boot. You may not like FFT's demon plot but it isn't a derail; it starts well before the game's halfway point and is devlopped throughout the rest of the game.

The plot stupid of late C4 can't really be downplayed. Also it lasts around 12-15 battles IIRC (give or take a few depending on which paths you choose in the Hanging Gardens), which is longer than most FFT chapters! In fairness there is hardly any plot during that time but I'm not sure if that's a good thing.

TO has some other problems before then of course; I don't think its plot is very good overall despite a few good moments (mostly involving Leonar or Lans T). Which is about as much as can be expected from SNES plots, but still.

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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2013, 01:25:18 AM »
There was a lot of foreshadowing for the betrayal!
Barbas got berated by Lans for failing to protect one of the castle, he certainly looked annoyed (And see Warren's Report where he beat superior to death) , Andoras purposely did not transfer his information about Denam's movement to Lans (Also see Warren's Report) Martym has crazy Kefka syndrome.

The game establishes there's some "great stuff" (for a dark knight) locked in the island. Can't say I felt betrayed when the nature of the great stuff was a hell's gate. I agree that not saying how exactly the hell's gate could benefit Lodis was not good, but I'm not going to call the endgame downright terrible for a minor element like this.
Also, the reveals happen in the second to last battle.

About the "derailing" semantics, I meant "derail" as going from good to less good. I definitely don't agree with the preconception that surprises with no foreshadowing are terrible by nature. (They're certainly better than too much foreshadowing)
Post Wiegraf FFT just kind of stops being interesting in favor of DEMONS. (except Dycedarg) FFT certainly doesn't benefit from having more demons earlier instead of surprise demon at the end. Hence it's worse.
Just like a Star Wars game with Lots of foreshadowing for Jar Jar Binks + Lots of Jar Jar Binks expositio would be worse than one with Surprise Jar Jar Binks at the very end.


I can't say I can really think of better JRPGs storywise than the Matsuno games personnally. That has to count for something!

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2013, 01:37:49 AM »
Delita has amazing scenes throughout C4! Delita alone > entirety of TO plot pretty easily though.


The betrayal happens with a lot of time left and is really stupid. "You know what we don't care about our political goals here, let's go TREASURE HUNTING" on the part of three total bit characters? It being revealed they are trying to resurrect the emperor just treads into jumping-the-shark territory but it's not like there was any worthwhile plot after Heim anyway, which is my point.

*checks list of games Matsuno has worked on*

uh. FFT's the only one there that I can call good and it's not that great! FFTA and VS? Gross. (I never got far in FF12 but it seems problematic although could easily be my second favourite. OB seemed bleh.) There is a great gap in our values.

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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2013, 02:11:37 AM »
Oh, as even more foreshadowing about the betrayal, let's not forget about Brantyn and his doubts about the dark knights, since he was part of the plan.

After Heim? Hmm... Vyce's scheming was fantastic, as were Oz's torture speechs. And Lans' torture itself. Barbas' betrayal is still good. Politics didn't stop being boring even though they didn't involve Denam. The general interaction between the villains was great.
Yeah it's all pretty great. TO <3 <3
The Balmamusa choice > FFT

FFT/TO/VS are the best Matsuno games storywise. VS fucked gameplay up but the plot is fantastic (for all that it lacks the emotional impact of FFT and TO)
FF12 could have been good but the plot was obviously changed way too much and we're left with something bland. It's all "POLITICS! ONCE AGAIN!!" in the intro then immediately drops it alltogether.


NEB you know we know that's always been the case.
I mean, Tidus. Tidus!

Meeplelard

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2013, 02:15:27 AM »
I said it before and I'll say it again:

FF12 starts off on very much the right foot for plot.  Interesting set up, good world building, definitely has a sense of a well diverse cast with many plot points, lots of political angles, etc.

Then after a certain point of the game, the plot sort of completely falls apart.  Instead of all the political jargon that was being developed and the obvious angle they were taking, they just go with a generic "You're the good rebellion fighting the bad empire."  You can tell when Matsuno stopped working on it and they got the SaGa guy there just to shoe-horn in some closure to the plot so they could finish the game.

Pity; I'd have loved to see FF12's plot if it was fully developed.
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SnowFire

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2013, 02:50:58 AM »
Dark Holy Elf: First off, let me say I'm among the first ones to say "screw out of game info."  If it was that important, put it in the damn game, even obscurely.  So yeah, I'm part of the eye-rolling crew when Niu mentions out-of-game stuff or CK rambles about Chrono Cross or Xenogears invoking Perfect Works or whatever, lala don't care.  *However*, this is one of the times I'm willing to believe that there's enough already in the games to nudge me toward what Matsuno was thinking.  TO still gets a demerit for not explaining what it is the conspirators seek to accomplish (that isn't the kind of plot point you want the player to puzzle out), but it's not made-up-out-of-whole-cloth level.  (Also, it's definitely, definitely not to revive Dorgaula.  That's more an incidental side effect, though since it's the one Our Heroes confront, I can totally see assuming it was the original plan.)

Fenrir already made the point, but in general, I'll take a plot with 90% politics and 10% SURPRIZE DEMONZ over a plot with 50% politics and 50% demons.  Maybe the demons are done better in the second game, but I'd still rather have the more politics, even if it comes at the expense of the demons making sense.

It wasn't "Dorguala's sword," it was the stupid FAQ-bait item in the original Ogre Battle that apparently unlocked both the best & worst endings, and also unlocked gates to various secret levels to recruit the Dragoons or something.  Stuff I didn't do in Ogre Battle, but I'm familiar with it, and I do think it's kind of cool that having established a super-sword, they remembered that it existed and made it a national treasure of Xenobia, which makes sense.  (Although on that note, not a huge deal, but the plot never does explain why Lans H. thinks that the Isles are a good place to look for the sword.  By all rights it should be in the high security wing of the Lodis equivalent of the Pentagon.  I mean, Lans H. is right of course, and if the mission was to unseal the Hell Gate it also makes perfect sense why Lodis would risk sending Lans T. out with it, but even something vague like "spies saw Lans T. with a weird sword" would have been nice.)  Going back to the point, it's a bit obscure, but it is established that opening seals is exactly the kind of thing... Brynhildir was it?  Does, albeit in "pls play our whole series for best effect" form.

Fenrir already commented on setting up the internal Dark Knight politics fairly well.  I still have no idea WTF Andorras was up to, betraying the Dark Knights out of spite for his homeland or something, but then intentionally letting Lans T. & Balexphon go as well?  Wut?  But more generally, I really liked how TO threw the normal expectations of the endgame back in your face.  That's cool.  I don't want everything to be too predictable; keep me on my guard some, even if that means denying some obvious confrontations.  It sends a message: this world is bigger than your story.  You might not even finish your story and get assassinated and killed.  So yeah, no final showdown between the two Lanselots (which seemed obvious), no showdown between Hobyrim & Balexphon, they get away, suck it.  It's different.  Different is good sometimes.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 03:04:49 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2013, 03:17:37 AM »
-Vyce? Wow. I thought Vyce sucked, probably the second worst major character after Catiua. Mailed-in "betraying friend" character who for no apparent reason is COMPLETELY different on both routes!
-Oz, meh, I've found Fire Emblem villains more effective in that trope. Fire Emblem. He's still better than most of the dark knights though. Really, really don't see the hype for the villain cast, sorry.
-Lans scene I'll agree with you on, it is the best scene in the game except, possibly, as you mentioned, Balamusa (Law choice only of course!). For once it's far better than when FFT tries something kinda similar (Wiegraf's speech in the Riovanes battle reminds me of it, except Wiegraf's speech comes off as far too whiny).
-Matsuno in general based on those three games you mentioned also seems really horrible at writing female characters, notice how we uh haven't mentioned any. That's pretty bad.
-Best RPGs for story IMO are of course Suikodens. They're even much, much better at political plots than Matsuno games! I am replaying S2 again and rewatching S1 right now, and even S1 the obvious weaker game does such a better job of developping its setting with a good look at the corrupt empire, and the characters are so much more engaging and likable than in TO.


edit: to Snowfire

First off I will say that I do agree with parts of your post for sure. I agree that I like that TO plays with expectations although ultimately that's pretty minor to me (could see it being more important to others though).

I definitely disagree about the 50/50 demons being worse than 90/10. It's all about being consistent in your setting. Most things you introduce in the first half of the game will fly just fine unless they are insanely stupid, and these are fantasy worlds so demons aren't inherently stupid.

It's like... Oddjob kills people by throwing a razor bowler hat (in a world with guns). This is what he does. We see this early in the movie so we aren't upset when we see it later. In theory it's kinda goofy (goofier than demons!) but nobody cares except maybe the completely humourless. But if, say, in the climactic scene of Of Mice and Men, George kills someone by tossing his hithereto unmentioned razor bowler hat, the reaction would be "WTF".

Of course I'm not nearly as board with you two with the "politics >>> demons" as a base preconception to start with (there is a > in there, just not a >>>) so that's probably part of why I have lower base respect for TO, you have to be more than just show up as a political plot to get me to care! (What's funny is I do consider myself somewhat biased towards political plots, just I guess not to the degree you guys are. Though, I'm also heavilly biased towards character work which is obviously a big weakness for TO.)

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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #13 on: May 25, 2013, 03:49:36 AM »
Yeah I agree with the Meeple/Snowfire posts.

Pure speculation, but I think Andoras went with the opportunity to divide the dark knight troops as it'd just weaken Lodis' power. Then he doesn't let go Denam off easily because Denam & Valeria needed to be stronger to handle Lodis later on, and because he thought he was on a losing battle anyway. (Also known as the John Locke principle) He doesn't want to directly fight on Denam's side because he's dead inside and just want to end his misery?


Vyce had a great plan for betraying Ronway and killing Lans, and him pleading to Lans for his life afterwards was great. Who cares if he's not the same in an alternate reality? (Leonard isn't either)


Suikoden games have fun characters and all, but the political plot is as superficial as it gets in almost every game. After TO, I couldn't really respect Suikoden 2's base plot that much. Obviously evil empire, fight it. GO. The only real "politics!!!" part it has over an average RPG where you fight an evil empire is that your tactician acts like a badass once in a while to tell you he'll move his troops left then right. It is fun and all but yeah.

The best interaction in the series is Jowy/Mute main character. Suikoden 2 has Luca Blight and Neclord.
Suikoden is too all over the place to have a real impact, much like my post. It can get stupid fast. TO/FFT are more focused. Also, likable =/= Better

Suikoden's still decent though, obviously.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 03:57:46 AM by Fenrir »

Dhyerwolf

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2013, 03:56:45 AM »
I guess whichever paths in TO I played avoided most of this? I played the game within the past year and I can say that I barely remember any of this.
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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #15 on: May 25, 2013, 03:58:39 AM »
It's Chaos path, I haven't played Law yet in the remake.

What was with Suikoden 5 and the bubbles of doom again? I might have misremembered this. But I think I remember a bubble of doom.
In any case, Sialeed's betrayal: Now that was unexpected and dumb
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 04:01:11 AM by Fenrir »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #16 on: May 25, 2013, 04:23:56 AM »
Most of what we're discussing is C4 actually, which is on all routes! TO's just not very memorable writing-wise. Too much "go to ___, conquer" especially in some of C3 and C4. Balbatos' country in particular is I-don't-remember-this-at-all except that they seemed to have a bit of an undead fetish on one of the routes.

Sialeeds' betrayal is a bit surprising (though there is certainly foreshadowing, she was talking with Dolph! Requires much less reaching than "Barbas was angry at being chastised") but makes loads of sense in hindsight (she wanted to destroy Barrows and Godwin utterly instead of reaching a ceasefire), so it's fine obviously. If Barbas' plan made sense in hindsight I would have no problem with it. It doesn't.

I'll take Luca easily over Oz (the TO character to whom he is most similar), let alone Barbas and co. I'm not a big Luca fan and the game definitely goes to far with him at points (look he survives hundreds of arrows!) but he is certainly pretty memorable and makes an effective plot device as a motivator for Jowy(/Seed/Culgan).

Neclord sucks but not like TO doesn't have you go kill a bunch of necromancers which isn't any better.

The Jowston city-state in-fighting informs Jowy's entire motivation. Lucia is in the game because the two Jowston mayors poisoned her dad because they thought a daughter would be easier to manipulate. Most of your difficulties in uniting people (Two River, Tinto, Matilda) stem from politics. I'm not sure how much you want, it's far more than strategists who aren't very politicky though do lend the war a more realistic (or perhaps more rewarding) feel than the TO/FE approach of "just go conquer everything because you're that amazing".

Likable characters aren't necessarily good, but most of TO's are neither. Suikoden characters are at best very good characters, but at worst tend to be memorable and/or likable, and this is important.

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Meeplelard

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #17 on: May 25, 2013, 09:34:44 PM »
As someone who doesn't have as high respect for Suikoden 2 plot/characters/etc. as a number of people here, I will state that Suikoden 2 definitely beats out Tactics Ogre on characters, if for no other reason than memorability.

Someone can name any plot relevant Suikoden 2 character and I'll be able to identify them immediately.  The same does not apply to Tactics Ogre, meanwhile.  SO many names I have problems associating with characters.  I doubt I'm alone on this too...
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Sierra

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2013, 11:33:23 PM »
You know, I don't mind this discussion (I'm reading it spoilers and all despite intending to play the game at some point), but maybe splitting off into its own thread would be more appropriate at this point?

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #19 on: May 25, 2013, 11:49:02 PM »
All this talk and all I am seeing is "look at these games that are less thematically consistent than Vandal Hearts 2".
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Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #20 on: May 26, 2013, 03:22:32 AM »
Don't worry Cid I wasn't really going to continue the discussion anyway. I haven't played the Suikos in a while and wouldn't be able to tell much beyond the fact that these examples were immensely less compeling. (Sialeed willing to go that far for such weak motives was truly unbelievable/pathetic though)
To stay on topic I have lowered FFX's score. To 0/10.

Fenrir

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2013, 10:52:05 PM »
Hey Snow, just FYI Balxephon actually isn't BFF with Barbas and co. He's the one who berates them for attacking Heim.
(By the way, man is it weird to see Ozma with positive emotions in the remake)

Grefter

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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #22 on: May 30, 2013, 11:55:27 PM »
Weirder than a remake of FM3 with Macho Man Randy Savage expressing an emotion other than >:O or >:| or the very rare :| ?
NO MORE POKEMON - Meeplelard.
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Re: Re: RPG Ratings
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2013, 01:25:05 AM »
Grefter u bad. You forgot the most important Macho Man Randy Savage expression D:<
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