Nyarlathotep's Dungeon: Week 113

[Nephrite]

"I am feeling benevolent today. I will give you another chance to fail miserably at my feet! Hahahahahaha!"


Link to the Dungeon Wiki!

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**Full Heals reset limit and other types of gauges when teams pass through them.
**Characters that join after the start are locked into the relative stats they have at that time until they would officially join.

Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk
[Hawk: Ninja]
[Floor 5b: A Less Fair Fight]
*Enemies on this floor have 1.5x Health
Team Snowfire vs. Marcello & Evil Jessica
Team Snowfire vs. Empyrea
Team Snowfire vs. Rhapthorne

Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Team Jo'ou vs. FFT Wizard, Oracle, Priest, Summoner and Time Mage
Team Jo'ou vs. Sarah (S3), Estella, Joker and Piccolo
Team Jo'ou vs. Lemina, Ronfar and Borgan (EBC)
Team Jo'ou vs. Lyon and Riev
Team Jo'ou vs. Narshe Kefka

Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
[Ramza: Monk | Punch Art, Item, Auto-Potion, Maintenance]
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Team Piggyman vs. FFT Wizard, Oracle, Priest, Summoner and Time Mage
Team Piggyman vs. Sarah (S3), Estella, Joker and Piccolo
Team Piggyman vs. Lemina, Ronfar and Borgan (EBC)
Team Piggyman vs. Lyon and Riev
Team Piggyman vs. Narshe Kefka

Glen | Souji, Virginia, Mew (Speed?), Ditto
Souji's Personas
[Fiery Rage Terra Roar and Moon Spark]
[Taunt, Transform, Brick Break, Earthquake]
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Glen vs. Flay and Nikki
Team Glen vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)
Team Glen vs. Colm, Jaffar and Matthew
Team Glen vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)
Team Glen vs. Boss Zed and Boomerang 2 (ACF)


Multitarget - One person on the team's actions all become Multitargetted. However, the damage of regular attacks, the healing of all spells that restore HP or MP, the status rates of status spells or attacks and the effect of buffs or debuffs (rounded down to the nearest half point in the case of Pokemon) is reduced by 33%. (Deadly Fingertips has a 67% chance of inflicting ID for example) Moves that were originally MT are not affected by this. This sealstone may be moved. In the case of revival, this affects the amount of HP restored, not the chance of revival occuring. Moves that have two types of effects (healing + buffing) are both decreased.

Speed? - The effective speed of one character is set to 120% (1.2x) average speed.

[Nephrite]

To be clear, no one asked me to do this, but I thought since I made the other 2b a bit too hard to give Jo'ou's team another shot at the other floor. If he still loses, well, there you go then.

[SnowFire]

Team Snowfire | Elincia, Yuna (MT), Arnaud, Stocke, Hawk

I pass.  Pretty much a breather after the previous floor, this team handles single bosses fine but has trouble against waves of PCs.

First the easy part: the solo bosses.  If they get both actions, they have dangerous offense, but between Yuna / Arnaud / Hawk I can easily force them to Wave of Ice every turn (or else lose big).  But only 1 action a turn = lol healed off.  Rhapthorne will still fall reasonably fast even with the floor HP boost, too.

So that leaves Marcello & Jessica doing something nasty.  Weirdly enough, Boss Jessica is listed as below party average speed, and OK's averages don't normally include Meteorite Armbands anyway, so it's possibly even worse.  However, she's definitely the big threat, she's got 67% MT Sleep + double actions.  Stocke can immune it, Yuna can resist it by an additional 50% (= 34% hit rate), and Elincia has good Resistance, so it's not the end of the world if it goes off.  On the bright side, Jessica's durability is kinda bad - less absolute HP than Dhoulmagus 2 despite being fought later, and worse-than-random-monster defense vs. Multihit Elincia.  The floor helps her durability, of course, but only so much, especially with Hawk presumably using his Defense-down Jutsu.  So...  Yuna MT Shell (to help draw a Wave of Ice from Marcy), Arnaud Slow Down Marcello (if you see him as faster than average, he isn't anymore - if you don't, then Fragile instead), Hawk Defense-down Jutsu, then Stocke & Elincia kick the stuffing out of Jessica and kill her before she moves.  EZ after that.

Even if you see Jessica as surviving, she'll be at death's door, she needs to get lucky on Sleep and hit Sleep-resistant Yuna + enough other targets to stand a chance at locking down my offense completely.

[Dhyerwolf]

Remember that Jessica does face 1 less HP than Dhoulmagus.

[SnowFire]

Yeah, I do give Jessica credit for that, but you face Dhoulmagus at...  lvl. 26 or so?  By the time you take on Jessica, you should be lvl. 30 or thereabouts, possibly higher.  Big offense leaps tend to come more from skills than levels in DQ8, but still.  (The worse absolute defense than Dhoulmagus is also pretty notable as you should have Falcon Slash by then if you want it on Guv, and Elincia has something awfully similar, so she benefits even more from that...)

[Dark Holy Elf]

There's just one relatively short dungeon between Dhoulmagus and Evil Jessica, so there certainly shouldn't be a 4-level boost (if there were, then Jess would be notably underlevelled for the rest of the game, since she gets no spillover exp during that time). 30 sounds about right for EJ, it's the 26 for Dhoulmagus that I question (29 would be my kneejerk). Also hyping the defence difference between them is kinda silly, it's 5 points of DQ defence... which means 1.25 damage at base, though 1.875 for Falcon Slash (which has a 1.5x multiplier, not 2x), 3.75 for Twin Dragon Lash... which you don't have anyway so never mind. If you do factor in number of PCs then the two bosses have virtually identical physical durability.

On the other hand, I'm inclined to point out that Yuna's sleep resistance is 50% subtractive, so that 67% becomes 17% instead which is pretty lol.

[SnowFire]

Okay, never mind, maybe I just got lost or something, because I definitely do recall Jessica lagging by some levels on XP for me after her rejoin.

[ThePiggyman]

My team passes, Delta Shield mockery is in full effect. Oracle is the only thing with an even slightly decent physical in the first fight. Joker has a decent physical, too, but the other S3 magic users have notoriously bad physicals. Ronfar can do something, Lemina and Borgan can't. Riev and Lyon literally can't hurt me. Kefka's not threatening at all without Ice2.

Abstaining on the others; don't know the teams well enough (sorry!)

[Dhyerwolf]

Easiest first since I already have some basis
Team Jo'ou's Fancy Princesses and Yuri | Yuri1, Mei-ling, Hilda(Speed?) and Garnet
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Yuri- Scrpaing 2HKO magic damage off good speed, might have ID protection at the end of the floor, but not beginning with some MT healing
Mei-ling- 50% Healing (doubling as revival?), speedy with a bit above physical average damage (Other skills aren't really gained yet?) off tad below average general durability
Hilda- Right, don't know why I thought she had MT buffs or revival. Damage is probably decent. Entrance is cool of course. But...doesn't start with the ID attack
Garnet- Healing, Protect and Shell (Don't know if Mythril Rod kicks in yet, gut leans to no becuase I tend to gut that FF 9 divides up at 2 floors a disk. Not sure if anything else)

Team Jo'ou vs. FFT Wizard, Oracle, Priest, Summoner and Time Mage- So...at least 3 of these guys will get to act, and likely 4 (None of them are really falling to one attack). Assuming that only 3 get left, who would be the best? My gut issue is that 3 of these guys will be able to get Mei-Ling out no matter which 3 because 4 of them have 2HKO damage.
Team Jo'ou vs. Sarah (S3), Estella, Joker and Piccolo- Ooh, yeah, Estella and Piccolo will team up for speed (faster than Hilda). Someone else is out.
Team Jo'ou vs. Lemina, Ronfar and Borgan (EBC)
Team Jo'ou vs. Lyon and Riev
Team Jo'ou vs. Narshe Kefka- So, fights 1, 2 and 5 are all kind of a lot. Obviously I think the first two fights are problematic (the chance of Mei-Ling getting out alive the first fight isn't great, and that makes the second fight bad). But Narshe Kefka without HP scaling? Likely with 3 at most people coming in here facing a fast OHKO? Ouch. I'll see how the other team deals with this floor, but this floor wants someone with crazy Mdef.

[Dhyerwolf]

Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
[Ramza: Monk | Punch Art, Item, Auto-Potion, Maintenance]
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Ramza has Item, Auto-Portion,...Maintenance...and the confusion of being a Monk. Not sure what Monk is supposed to bring here?
Aika- At this point, some MT damage she needs to build towards and...think Delta Shield is generally seen as floor 3 for turn 1 casting? So has it, but needs to wait a turn to get it.
Shadow-
Sharanda- She is supposed to also have storebought healing I think? That covers . Awesome revival when transformed.
Bowser- Effective damage and durability, Fear

Team Piggyman vs. FFT Wizard, Oracle, Priest, Summoner and Time Mage- So at least 3 of these guys are getting turn. Targets are...Sharanda, Aika and Ramza. They can get out Aika. Auto-Potion could foil, Sharanda is a tank. Come around, pick off more of them, revive and heal.
Team Piggyman vs. Sarah (S3), Estella, Joker and Piccolo- Biggest danger is the initial onslaught, but again, they can't get out Miranda and can only really get out one person. So then a few get killed, Miranda revives, Ramza heals her MP if needed
Team Piggyman vs. Lemina, Ronfar and Borgan (EBC)
Team Piggyman vs. Lyon and Riev- The one worry here being be doing damage to Lyon. Shadow's best is his physical? Which gets MTed and has issues with his defense. But...is Lyon status immune. Let's say Fear here...
Team Piggyman vs. Narshe Kefka- And a lot of ST that the team can handle. There's a lot of matches I'm simplifying here, but I think that this team is about as good as you are going to get in terms of builds to deal with this floor (Mdef tank healer, Auto-Potion Item Ramza), so not going to get too rigorous.

Glen | Souji, Virginia, Mew (Speed?), Ditto- Guess this team got through the last floor on hatbot tie-breaks and dearth of votes. 
Souji's Personas
Souji- Blahhhh. So, he does not have revival per topic notes as it is L26 on a Persona and OK lists level 25 at the end of the floor. So...some damage and a headache and ow.
Virginia- Decent magic damage with Devastate (not turn 1 until end), Revival, Sleep, Dispel
Mew- Forces someone to use only attack stuff, Transform, Whatever Physical Damage+Semi Defensive Buff Dispel, and Earthquake...which also targets allies.
Ditto- A nightmare

[Fiery Rage Terra Roar and Moon Spark]
[Taunt, Transform, Brick Break, Earthquake]
Floor 2a: Adventuring (Earlygame)
Team Glen vs. Flay and Nikki- As always, Nikki has a flat out shot of IDing someone. Virginia is the sole reviver unless Ditto transforms (but can Ditto transform into someone dead. MK 1 turn 1 speed matters and Nikki is fast). Granted, Virginia can evade! Not that I feel like anyone dying here is really acceptable. If Nikki is slower than Virginia and gets Souji, there's a lot of trying to get back to normal. Flay can sit back and do damage at least. Team isn't great on killing them dead (4 PCs, 1 gives up a first turn to Transform, Mew isn't great at damage, Virginia isn't great at damage). Team is not great at reviving and healing back to full going into future fights (Virginia's healing is bad, P4 healing isn't really ever near full until it's specifically full healing)
Team Glen vs. Jack, Cecilia and Rudy(WA:ACF)- If anyone is very damage, Jack can pick them off. Team is bad at killing turn 1. May need to aim at Cecilia with all attacking PCs. Jack and Rudy then get a free turn. Rudy can probably Snipe Bullet Virginia and then go damn quick the next turn and get a turn to shower the enemies with GT damage. Either Jack or Rudy has a solid chance of seeing a Force. Either are horrible.
Team Glen vs. Colm, Jaffar and Matthew- So, aim for Virginia, evade stuff. Colm and Matthew are still rocking the durability via evade (which none of them can get through). Lucky crits or just a few hits in a row will do it.
Team Glen vs. Killey (S2) and Lorelai (S5)- Obviously can't kill both turn 1. But be able to kill 1, but who knows if the Persona Souji is using is even faster than both. Virginia and Mew can't get one out alone. So Souji needs to come into the fight with a faster Persona, which isn't too big a deal
Team Glen vs. Boss Zed and Boomerang 2 (ACF)- At least they have Thunder and Wind (of course, none of the Personas listed that are competitive now have the Boost for either of these). Of course, both the bosses are fast and Boomerang will just cancel Souji's turn anyways. The others are so bad at healing that Zed outpaces with ease.

Admittedly, this team is a nightmare to look up because 3 of them are just a bunch of vague notes that need to be researched every floor and the fourth one compounds this by copying one of the other 3 (which another can do for same measure), but...
Souji- Damage, some moderate healing, can resist some physicals and some elements, but you have to look up what he can actually do when. His Persona levels additionally tend to lag his actual level. Only good ST healing is on weak Electric too. Oh, he's also the only healer.
Virginia- Skillset isn't fully available turn 1 (best magic damage)
Mew- Best damage also targets his allies, can force people to attack which only is of use against...Boomerang and Cecilia. And Boomerange is faster.

So...no one is really strong, they start out with 1 healer and need PCs to take extra turns to enable healing. Hard to see this one working.

[Random Consonant]

Snowfire and Piggyman pass, abstain on the other two for now.

[ThePiggyman]

Team Piggyman | Ramza, Aika, Shadow (MT), Sharanda, Bowser
[Ramza: Monk | Punch Art, Item, Auto-Potion, Maintenance]
[Floor 2b: Magical Mystery]
Ramza has Item, Auto-Portion,...Maintenance...and the confusion of being a Monk. Not sure what Monk is supposed to bring here?
Aika- At this point, some MT damage she needs to build towards and...think Delta Shield is generally seen as floor 3 for turn 1 casting? So has it, but needs to wait a turn to get it.
Shadow-
Sharanda- She is supposed to also have storebought healing I think? That covers . Awesome revival when transformed.
Bowser- Effective damage and durability, Fear

Reason I'm going Monk is so I can go Martial Arts + Ninja later on, for a very powerful attacker. With high Brave (which Ramza's is certainly), I believe Martial Arts on a Ninja will be stronger than two ninja swords. I wasn't planning on building Ramza into a mage, so I was essentially picking between Archer, Knight, and Monk.

As for Aika, I was basing when I get Delta Shield turn 1 on this in the Dungeon Guidelines section, which claimed that Delta Shield was very likely turn 1 as early as floor 2, but I won't argue if you consider it floor 3 anyways, since I just have this to go on.

[Dhyerwolf]

I know that there's probably a level chart someone out there which could help. Luckily either way the floor is yours.

[SnowFire]

I'm the one who wrote the guidelines Piggyman linked to, and yeah, I definitely think that Aika should get 2 SP on Floor 2.  My notes claim I found some evidence of her having it by Nasr, but even if she "only" gets it in Maramba, that'd still be Floor 2 to me (Skies is a looong game), so.  I definitely recall getting to 7 SP for the party to be fairly fast.

Anyway, sure, I'll buy it, Piggyman passes.  Glen has too many characters I don't know well, abstain.  Jo'ou...  actually looks like a tentative pass, because see Dhyer except add "I don't really respect most of these bad guys but I do respect Garnet spamming MT healing a lot, and doesn't Mei-Ling have MT healing too?"

[Dhyerwolf]

Garnet's MT healing isn't going to exactly be great at this point (Just Cure, no 50% healing boosting stone, no Holy boosting, MTing the spell halves it effectiveness and I don't think it's that close to full to start?).

Even if Mei-Ling has MT healing (Which...I thought that was the big selling point on Mesarthim. Starlight Heal is ST, and I think that's what her healing is), is she getting out of the first fight? She's the only reviver, and Yuri, her and Hilda can only get 2 people out at once, leaving 3. Let's say that AoE wise Hilda has...70% damage. So 28% to average (Hasn't gained  the special skills yet). Yuri can perhaps do 50% magic. Oh, looking at the generic average, some of these classes are not going to be 2HKOed by any move combo here. Two attacks from the team is generally looking at about 80% unless Hilda uses ST, and 80% only gets Wizard. So not sure they can even get 2 people out.

Garnet can Shell; I don't know if FFT Shell helps status magic but let's say Wizard is the one out since he has the ID which Mei-Ling can't recover from.

Time Mage- 80% damage, Reflect (bad for Yuri and Hilda)
Summoner- 80% AoE damage, 70% AoE Healing, 70% chance of AoE Silence, 70% of AoE HP Halving, 80% AoE Reflect, Golem! (shuts down Mei-Ling offensively a few turns if she's alive)
Priest- 70% damage, 50% Revival, 74% Protect+Shell
Oracle- Just about 25% damage, Paralyze, Sleep, Blind and Silence all solid turn 1.

All the FFT team goes after Snow's team. Unless you hold the generics to the special PC HP average, then they don't have the manpower to get out more than 2. I would also argue that if you do that, the FFT team is going to equip for Magic over HP. And then...Mei-Ling dies through Shell even with the worst 3 damagers. Don't see how she's going to live on and she's the only reviver.

Fight 2 looks more managable only because Piccolo's L3 splits damage (leaving him with an L4 that is a bit above average speed). Without Mei-Ling, they can't pick off Estella prior her L3 AoE spell comes back and even with damage splitting, that's 400 from Piccolo plus 1000 from Estella plus 200 from Sarah and...I guess Joker can do like 200 at slightly above average speed. So they can combine to do a lot of damage, although healing can stave off some of it timed correctly.

[SnowFire]

Oh, Mei-Ling doesn't have MT healing?  Okay.  I'll revert to an abstain then pending someone else making a writeup I can buy on why Jo'ou might survive.  (It's more that I really don't respect some of the enemies you do, especially in the FFT fight, so.)