Author Topic: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations  (Read 1660 times)

Cmdr_King

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Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« on: February 05, 2015, 08:26:59 PM »
Okay so there's this stupid story from the usual sources about how there totally aren't any positive male depictions in kid's films and Disney is bad and should feel bad.  So... really, how does Disney fair on the role model scale?  For this analysis, we'll primarily be judging characters by how 'heroic' they are, generally meaning that they a) accept responsibilities for others (or act on their responsibilities), b) admit fault where it occurs and c) take positive action to correcting mistakes or addressing their responsibilities.  We'll be looking first at the lead characters, and then at the most important supporting character of opposite gender.  We'll be looking at the Disney Animated Canon, omitting films that are anthologies for various reasons (for starters I haven't seen most of them, 'cept Fantasia which doesn't have characters in the regular way)

So we go.

1. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
Lead: Snow White isn't much of a character because, well, 1937 and based on a fairy tale.  While she has some positive attributes (she seems to be kind and hardworking), on the whole she's a character things happen to, not a character who does things.  Pretty much a damsel in her own movie, very sad.
Leading Male: Prooobably Grumpy, but really I'd think of the Dwarfs as one character that can argue with himself seven ways.  They don't really do much aside from try to impress Snow White then chase the shit outta the Queen.  It's a very villain driven movie is what I'm getting at here.

2. Pinocchio
Lead: Pinocchio's whole deal is he's a newborn that believes whatever stupid con people feed him and doesn't have the wisdom or experience to know right from wrong.  The whole thing is a morality tale of him doing bad things of various severity and being punished for them in increasingly karmic ways.  Certainly not heroic in any sense, but that's basically The Point.
Leading Female: The blue fairy by default.  I guess the fish is a girl?  Yeah.  Anyway the blue plot device is not a character.

3. Dumbo
Lead: Dumbo doesn't really have agency for the first half or so of the story. Once he learns he's not helpless he definitely flies his damned heart out because, well, it's what he's got so gotta make it work for him somehow.  In a way this has more in common with more modern Disney than the other really early films, the emphasis on family and especially parent/child relationships first really shows up here.
Female Lead: Dumbo's mom (Jumbo I think) is basically shown as The Best Mom Ever.  Aside from the part where the cruel human slave masters (...increasingly I'm thinking there's supposed to be parallels to African slavery in this movie, weird) lock her up but throwing shit is how most mom's react to their children being an object of public ridicule.

4. Bambi
Lead: This is, well, baaasically an animated nature film.  Except they talk.  Bambi is just this stag, y'know?
Leading Female: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWHelIqiV3Q

5. Cinderella
Lead: Hey, a female protagonist again.  AND she's actually not just a plot device.  Okay so fairy tale plot holes aside (Cinderella stays with these bitches why?), once we accept that for whatever reason her step-family is important to her she's really pretty decent.  She wants to attend the ball and try for something better in life, she works hard by her own 'basically a slave' standards to make sure she can go, tries to make her own dress, does basically everything in her power to achieve a goal and better life for herself.  The contrast between how much effort she puts in and what her goal actually is is a bit dissonant, at least 70 years later, but hey.  You expect that in Disney.  Interesting message if you want to think in those terms; when a situation is sufficiently fucked, working within that system will never get you out of it, no matter how hard you work.  Sometimes you'll just need something to get you started.
Leading Male: I could pretend this is Prince Charming (to my knowledge his canonical name, unless the cash in sequels gave him more of one) and chalk one up for the men are useless tally, but that's not, well, true.  The mice, especially Jaques, are much more present and important to events.  And the dude risks life and limb to help a friend in an hour of need.  Pretty good man.

6. Alice in Wonderland
Lead: A lot of what I said about Pinocchio applies here.  not as severely, but Alice is young and lets her emotions get her into danger, and the story is in part about her learning better judgement.
Leading Male: Sorta pointless, because one of the larger points is that all of Wonderland, even the seemingly harmless bits, are working against Alice.  The most prominent character is probably the Cheshire Cat, who will between scenes go from helping her to actively sabotaging her.

7. Peter Pan
Lead: Peter Pan is an eternal 11 year old.  Which is synonymous with selfish asshole.  He seems to be brave and does shepard the Lost Boys around, but he also basically encourages them to do nothing but either lay about or rush into ludicrous danger just on the confidence that he can handle anything that comes up.
Female Lead: Wendy is, uh, basically Alice except with younger brothers.  Except she starts off more responsible because she feels responsible to them, and the end is basically her saying "well this has been fun but we can't just abandon real life for being young and lazy forever" so... points?  Eh.

8. Lady and the Tramp
Unlike a lot of Disney films about animals, they actually interact with people a lot and the fact that they are dogs is pretty inescapable.  The context of "dog" is so important that it seems weird to look at them as characters.  Mostly examining Lady from a gendered perspective doesn't really work for me.  Moving on.

9. Sleeping Beauty
Lead: The three Faeries share the role, despite being pretty distinct characters.  This also puts Aurora in like sixth on the character import list, but that's okay, she's boring and dumb anyway.  Anyway the faeries are pretty great, everyone loves them for good and valid reasons, nothing happens without them.
Leading Male: Phillip is interesting for this list because he's a pretty noble dude all told, but realistically he's just sort of a medium by which the three faeries save the day in the last act.  I kinda like the subversiveness of it, and in the end his intent is heroic even if he's not personally accomplishing great deeds out there.

10. 101 Dalmations
Leads: Pongo and Perdita are pretty clearly more important than every character that's not Cruella DeVille, and while they're not the same character their motives and actions are pretty equal.  A big chunk of the movie is with the secondary cast over at the DeVille Mansion, who are exclusively male, and indeed the only other ladies in the cast are bit parts (the maid and... for the life of me I don't remember the wife's name), so uh... default?

11. The Sword in the Stone
Leads: it's open whether we want to call Wart or Merlin the lead here.  The story is a lot of them just faffing around with some life lessons tucked in, although both majorly abdicate their responsibilities towards the end and it just kinda works out anyway.
Female anything: If there is a single lady in this cast besides Mad Madam Mimm, I don't remember her.  And she's the villain such as the movie even has a villain.

12. The Jungle Book
Leads: Picking just one from among Baloo, Bageera, and Mowgli is too hard so hell with it.  The movie boils down to the three of them arguing on what the right thing to do even is and misadventures brining them all around to the idea that Mowgli has to leave the Jungle.  None of it fits cleanly into the lines I'm using for this post, but it's not something the previous films had so kinda cool I guess.
Female anything: singing water girl is the only girl I'm aware of besides, like, Mowgli's wolf mom who doesn't even get a speaking line I'm aware of.  Plot devices are plot devices.

13. The Aristocats
I don't remember this movie well enough to even accurately say anyone's name.  Skip.

14. Robin Hood
Lead: It's Robin Hood, the straight up Heroic kind of Robin Hood.
Leading Female: Maid Marian... sure does exist and do stuff?  If she accomplishes much besides romantic strolls and being a quest object for Robin I don't remember it.

15. The Rescuers
Lead: Good question.  Penny's struggles with her captors and Bernad's misadventures pretty well run as parallel stories, and it's been quite some time since I've seen the movie so I couldn't say for sure which one gets more time.  I lean Penny I guess?  She's a spunky kid just trying to survive in a fucked up situation, and does anything she can think of to get away, so props I guess.
Male Lead: Which bumps Bernard down here.  He's totally a You Are Better Than You Think You Are story and does some stuff that gets stuff done so hey, everyone looks pretty good here.

16. The Fox and the Hound
I'm just gonna refer back to lady and the tramp here.  The fact the animals are animals is important to the story and how the characters relate to it.  Pass.

17. The Black Cauldron
Actually never seen it.

18. The Great Mouse Detective
Lead: Basil is a fop who has to be nudged into acting on his better nature.  Unlike his neighbor he's not a complete wreck and ultimately pretty decent and hardworking under the bluster though.
Leading Female: Olivia manages to seek out a famous detective to find her kidnapped father.  Well above and beyond the call of duty for a small child just in setting up the premise.

19. Oliver and Company
It would be great if I could remember the genders of any characters out the leads.  Like I think there's one girl dog who may or may not do anything and... maybe a little girl that adopts Oliver?  Maybe not.  Couldn't tell you.

20. The Little Mermaid
whee into stuff people have actually seen.
Lead: Ariel is kinda a gratuitous fuckup who gets in way over her head most of the movie.  She's got an altruistic streak but otherwise a very unheroic character.
Male Lead: well now.  Really this is King Triton, who for his bigotry is genuinely trying to do the right thing in the movie.  Not always very wisely, but hey.  It's worth noting though that Eric is pretty badass as Disney prince's go, he stabs a fucking giant octopuss in the stomach with a wrecked ship.  Much better showing for the men than the ladies.

21. The Rescuers Down Under
Lead: While there's still a lot of split storytelling in the line of the first Rescuers here, this is much more solidly Bernard's movie and one of the ways this movie is clearly a sequel is how he's clearly carried on and matured in between films, being firmly heroic and awesome the entire time in this one.
Leading Female: this naturally means Bianca is firmly the female lead and, well, her deal is that she really wants to do good in the world instead of just paying it lipservice.  I don't remember her accomplishing much but hey.

*Break*
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2015, 09:29:56 PM »
22. Beauty and the Beast
Lead: Belle is basically the logical outcome if you want an assertive, pro-active female lead without having her be an action hero.  Anyway, she clearly rejects unwanted behavior, risks reputation and the unknown to defend her father, flees a bad situation when it's clear she's in greater danger than she agreed to, and is just generally good people.
Male Lead: Beast is another one of those character arc guys, boiling down to "if you want to be human you must act human", it's a pretty nice sentiment and he ends up fairly noble.  Not much to say.

23. Aladdin
Lead: Al's just a dude trying to get by for a chunk of the movie.  Once he actually starts acquiring loved ones and people he's responsible to, he has a bit of a lapse but ultimately does right by them.  He's not a traditional hero, what with the whole saving the day by tricking the villain into sealing himself away for all eternity, and no small amount of conniving and truth spinning before then, but ultimately a noble sort.
Leading Female: Jasmin is fiery but not really proactive.  Aside from the beginning, where all she was really doing was talking a walk, she doesn't do a whole lot to improve her situation aside from tell people off if they weren't measuring up.

24. The Lion King
Lead: Simba spends most of the film actively fleeing his responsibilities, and for a while any responsibilities whatsoever.  Ultimately it's hard to hold that against him too badly since there's not much he could have done early on regardless, but I definitely hesitate to mark him as particularly heroic even in the finale, where Scar is able to play him pretty well until basically the last minute.
Female Lead: Nala is both the hero we need, and more hero than perhaps Simba deserves.

25. Pocahontas
Lead: Pocahontas is the boring hero even a five year old knows can't actually exist.
Male Lead: John Smith sure is all understanding and shit.
Yeah I'm not giving this movie actual effort.  Everyone is either Suetastically awesome or a cartoon villain and it's all very badly written.

26. The Hunchback of Notre Dame
Lead: Quasimodo is interesting because he seems more heroic and noble than I think he actually is, or at least that he actually lives up to.  He does some relatively impressive things but there's this Nice Guy tm undertone to a lot of it for most of the movie, though he does accept his friends as simply friends and did his bit to help them and save the gypsies/the city at large.
Female Lead: Esmeralda is largely looking out for her and hers, but that includes basically anyone she feels is as downtrodden as her own people which is close enough to 'everyone' in context of the movie.

27. Hercules
Lead: Who put the glad in Gladiator?  HERCULEEEESSSSSS!!
Uh yeah the literal goal of the movie is for Herc to become a 'True Hero'.  He spends 90% of the movie as regular grade heroic on the way to that.
Female Lead: Meg's deal is being a cynic learning to trust again, so unsurprisingly she ends up doing some heroic behavior towards the end.

28. Mulan
Lead: Mulan is the hero that saved China.  At least twice.  Even before the Hun defeating bits taking her father's place in the draft is a bit like falling on a grenade for him so... yeah.
Male Lead: Shen's deal is wanting to be a great hero and leader of men more or less.  Pretty much fits the bill.

29. Tarzan
Never seen it.

30. Dinosaur
Ditto.

31. The Emperor's New Groove
Lead: Another jackass, another redemption arc.  Look, storytelling isn't the appeal of this movie.  He never really makes it up to heroic though, for my money.
Leading Female: um.  Gosh.  When we set aside the villain the most prominent woman is... what, Pacha's wife?  Not much to see here.

32. Atlantis the Lost Empire
Lead: Milo is a well meaning doofus who gets to do some heroing by the end.
Female Lead: Kida... honesty I don't remember her doing much that wasn't in self interest.  She did largely want to save her civilization which had fallen so hard they could no longer read their own language but... I dunno.

33. Lilo & Stitch
<CmdrKing> Lead: Another jackass, another redemption arc.  Look, storytelling isn't the appeal of this movie.  He never really makes it up to heroic though, for my money.
Female Lead: Well, in a way I could probably swap the lead position and have Lilo as the proper lead, but jokes.  Anyway, Lilo's like 5 and her main concern is not breaking apart her family.  She seems to go out of her way to antagonize her sister in a way that seems mean spirited which ultimately drops off but still, mean little child.

34. Treasure Planet
35. Brother Bear
36. Home on the Range
37. Chicken Little
38. Meet the Robinsons
39. Bolt
The Age of Disney Nobody Even Saw, or at least not me.

40. The Princess and the Frog
Lead: Tiana's all about that agency.  See way back in Cinderella, except much more explicitly about "you can't do everything on your own".
Male Lead: Naveen's arc is a bit more interesting than Kuzco or Stitch's because while he's a peacock, he's never actively malicious and more than that he starts the movie in a state of punishment and he's not about having to learn how to be a good person.  He's hardly a bad person from the start.  He's about finding a reason to be a better person.

41. Tangled
Lead: Rapunzel I don't have a good handle on as a character.  She's shaped a lot by her upbringing and she's simultaneously proactive but so naïve she creates just as many problems and I think I'll come back to this one.
Male Lead: Flynn is basically Han Solo compressed into a single movie.

42. Wreck-It Ralph
Lead: Ralph is another You Are Better Than You Think You Are, except... he also has to learn how to be a friend.  It's weird.  But in the end he punches a mountain expecting to be boiled alive to save a realm he imperiled, so that's good enough for me.
Female Lead: Penelope is a bit more selfish, but she seemingly is a much younger character, certainly the other racers give off the impression of having the mentality of their drawn ages of ~8-11.  Not quite as straight heroic but hey.

43. Frozen
Lead: I may have slightly written the criteria around Anna's character arc.  Slightly.
Male Lead: There is an in-movie discussion of Kristoff's heroic qualities (phrased as proof he loves Anna but anyway)

44. Big Hero 6
Haven't seen it yet!
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Meeplelard

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2015, 10:05:42 PM »
Pretty interesting way to look at things.  The one thing I do want to point out is that in Aladdin, you did leave out that they do demonstrate early on he's very clearly a good person put into a situation that requires him to cross lines he's not suppose to.  This is demonstrated early on with the bread nonsense, where after risking life and limb just for a loaf of bread, and causing all that mayhem...he ends up giving it away to two starving children on the street.

I also do think that 101 Dalmations is very much a Lady and the Tramp situation, where-in you really can't ignore "these are dogs" so gender roles simply don't apply (Pongo and Perdita do have personalities, but it's not related to gender at all).  This doesn't even apply to humans if you want to use some of them, as their owners (names elude me) are just kind of "there to be human owners."  They're not unimportant, but they're not really characters either, more just defined by their roles to fill in necessary gaps. 

Oh, I guess I can cover Tarzan pretty easily:

Lead: Titular character.  Half the movie he spends as an outcast trying to fit in with a group he clearly does not, 2nd half is him learning about where he came from, and then trying to bridge the gap between those he regards as his family, and those he regards as his origins.  He ultimately recognizes that people can't be identified by race since there's good and bad on both sides, and the key is just doing what you think is right.  Ultimately, he risks life and limb fighting for honor, avenging both parents, as well as proving himself the bigger man by sparing the Villain (I think Clayton dies as a result of his own actions, not Tarzan.)
Female Lead: Two characters can fit this, and they both represent the two halves of the movie.  The first is Tarzan's ape mother (name eludes me) who mostly just comes off as a loving, protective mother who just wants what's best for Tarzan, and will even fight to defend his own mistakes when everyone else is doing the blame game, using the usual "he's just a kid!" kind of defenses.
The other is Jane, who wants to study apes because she's a scientist and is fascinated by them.  Despite being a civilized human, she gives it up for life in the wilderness after realizing there's not much in civilization, and the life there is far more exciting, especially since she's clearly got a thing for Tarzan.  I'd say it's because  "love interest" but then her father does the same thing, so it's easy to say that her fascination with the jungle just made her choice obvious, now that she knows what to expect and how to deal with it.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2015, 12:18:56 AM »
Holy crap when did Beauty and the Beast find its way into the first half of Disney movies? I hadn't realised how much they'd upped the rate of making them.

(Good read, regardless.)

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2015, 02:41:24 AM »
I think that you are forgetting Brave and some...movie...with a  ship...from the early 2000s? (I didn't see either of these, but could swear they were Disney. I'm not sure about the last one especially).
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Excal

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2015, 02:52:39 AM »
The list doesn't seem to include Pixar, which may be owned by Disney, but is a separate studio.

Also, I feel sad that the Rescuers is not listed as the beloved cultural icon it should be. 

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #6 on: February 06, 2015, 03:25:47 AM »
Man it's sad that Treasure Planet is in the "movies nobody saw" list... It's actually got a lot of great parts to it. Not perfect, but certainly not bottom-of-the-barrel like its ticket sales would have you believe. I blame it solely on the awful Titan AE coming out the same year and being the most shit-tastic animated sci-fi feature film...

Seriously, CK, I think you personally would actually really enjoy Treasure Planet, you should probably watch it, it is a cheap investment, time and money-wise.

Cmdr_King

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #7 on: February 06, 2015, 06:04:41 AM »
Holy crap when did Beauty and the Beast find its way into the first half of Disney movies? I hadn't realised how much they'd upped the rate of making them.

(Good read, regardless.)

Not technically true actually, the films I omitted as compilations are front loaded: Fantasia, three caballeros, fun and fancy free, and a couple I forget are in between Bambi and Cinderella, plus the first winny the pooh

Djinn; I should!  Actually I've seen enough of Meet the Robinsons to probably do it actually and should watch it properly sometime.  I hear Bolt is surprisingly good too.  But yeah Treasure Planet sounds a lot like Titan AE which I really like.
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<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #8 on: February 06, 2015, 12:27:03 PM »
Titan AE is considerably better than Treasure Planet.

Also how have you not seen Tarzan?  Correct that mistake immediately.

Meeplelard

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Re: Disney Films by Way of Role Modeling and Gender Relations
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2015, 02:22:31 PM »
One thing I think worth bringing up about Naveen, reading Princess and the Frog again, is also how he is meant to be Tiana's opposite.

Tiana has to work hard for everything she's ever had, between working two jobs, living a life of poverty, has a dead father, etc.  Naveen, by contrast, is a prince and has been waited on his entire life.  He took it for granted, and never once had to do anything in his life so just had fun.  As a result, Tiana has a lot of life skills given her situation while Naveen doesn't know how to do anything.

It really comes down to that the two are such opposites they kind of need each other.  Heck, the ending only occurs because of an action by the two of them, not just one person, which makes sense since both are cursed.
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> so Snow...
[21:39] <+Mega_Mettaur> Sonic Chaos
[21:39] <+Hello-NewAgeHipsterDojimaDee> That's -brilliant-.

[17:02] <+Tengu_Man> Raven is a better comic relief PC than A