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Author Topic: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off  (Read 1244 times)

superaielman

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Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« on: May 14, 2014, 09:41:56 PM »
Lassic: 35-21
Vampire: 17-16
Knight: 25-29

Gangrel- FE13 request.
Pirate- Nasty stat downs, great offense. Enough to be a borderliner?
Miguel- CC's resident competent dueler. Does he rely too much on holy?

Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2)
Miguel vs Yuri (SH1)
Miguel vs Yuri (SH2)
Miguel vs Killer (SH3)
Miguel vs Reicher (MK2)
Miguel vs Cecilia (WA1)
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1)
Miguel vs Beowulf (FFT)
Miguel vs Debonair (OB)
Miguel vs Demi (PS4)
Miguel vs Zeno (BoF5)
Miguel vs Hect (G3)

Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Melfice (G2)
Pirate vs Yuri (SH1)
Pirate vs Yuri (SH2)
Pirate vs Killer (SH3)
Pirate vs Reicher (MK2)
Pirate vs Cecilia (WA1)
Pirate vs Lucian (VP1)
Pirate vs Beowulf (FFT)
Pirate vs Debonair (OB)
Pirate vs Demi (PS4)
Pirate vs Zeno (BoF5)
Pirate vs Hect (G3)

Gangrel (FE13) vs Melfice (G2)
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH1)
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH2)
Gangrel vs Killer (SH3)
Gangrel vs Reicher (MK2)
Gangrel vs Cecilia (WA1)
Gangrel vs Lucian (VP1)
Gangrel vs Beowulf (FFT)
Gangrel vs Debonair (OB)
Gangrel vs Demi (PS4)
Gangrel vs Zeno (BoF5)
Gangrel vs Hect (G3)
« Last Edit: May 14, 2014, 09:46:51 PM by superaielman »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #1 on: May 14, 2014, 10:44:44 PM »
Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2) - Yeah no.
Miguel vs Yuri (SH1) - I'll bite.
Miguel vs Yuri (SH2) - On the other hand, this one doesn't work out so well for Yuri.
Miguel vs Killer (SH3) - OHKO or not, he can probably survive two turns of Killer offense
Miguel vs Reicher (MK2) - Far too durable.
Miguel vs Cecilia (WA1) - Parasol doesn't do everything but it does enough.
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1) - Yeah if Miguel probably survives two turns of Killer offense he probably survives one turn of Lucian's.
Miguel vs Beowulf (FFT) - dat robe
Miguel vs Demi (PS4) - Demi doesn't really care for the fact that Miguel can bust mdef or the added pressure from TurnBlack
Miguel vs Hect (G3)

For my own reference Gangrel sits at around 0.27 pdur/0.63 mdur.  He really wants that first turn evade boost from the fort he starts on since his evade's otherwise on the wrong side of coinflip but I never allow such things.  Also +8.5 AS at midgame so uh good fucking luck not being doubled by him if you're dim enough to let him get a turn.

Gangrel (FE13) vs Melfice (G2) - Faster, has physical MT.  Gangrel's chances at this are worse than Melfice's to me regardless of how I feel about Melfice evade vs. levin sword zaps.
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH1) - Gangrel can't seal this away in one round and he kind of needs to.
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH2) - Coinflip evade, not something you want to rely on when your durability is that bad.
Gangrel vs Killer (SH3) - Yeesh.
Gangrel vs Reicher (MK2) - Far too durable.
Gangrel vs Cecilia (WA1) - Eh sure, surviving a Gangrel turn is enough here.
Gangrel vs Lucian (VP1) - Yeah uh Gangrel has above average threat range when you fight him but he misses the one-rounding, I think.  Kind of bad when you can't claim to have more than 50% evade after your first turn at all.
Gangrel vs Beowulf (FFT) - Levin Sword, kind of less scary in the DL than it is ingame.  Beowulf puts on a White Robe and goes lolshock.
Gangrel vs Demi (PS4) - Well this is funny to me for all sorts of reasons.
Gangrel vs Hect (G3) - Yeah I'm going to assume G3 Mdef isn't that great and Gangrel just manages to oneround. e: actually no, extrapolating Hect's HP to fit a less horrendously overleveled average and going based on Dhyer's numbers for RES (which fits closer to my recollection against anything worth a damn than OK's lol33% reduction does) puts her at just enough to survive.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:30:03 PM by Random Consonant »

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2014, 10:30:54 PM »

Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2)- Far more kneejerk respect.
Miguel vsYuri (SH1)- Guh.
Miguel vs Yuri (SH2)-HolyDragonSword may well be a OHKO.
Miguel vs Killer (SH3)- Kneejerk. Malice Killer can output a lot of damage in the first turn or two and then nothing. Think Miguel can survive that.
Miguel vs Reicher (MK2)- Miguel would need to immune Holy here to have a prayer. Whoops.
Miguel vs Cecilia (WA1)- Miguel's all magic. Not cuttiong it.
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1)- Lucian needs a OHKO here and won't get one.
Miguel vs Beowulf (FFT)- Cam Robe.
Miguel vs Debonair (OB)- Debonair's near immune to holy, but turnblack can fix that.
Miguel vs Demi (PS4)
Miguel vs Zeno (BoF5)
Miguel vs Hect (G3)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #3 on: May 16, 2014, 02:26:50 PM »
Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2) - Miguel 2HKOs and isn't 2HKOed back.
Miguel vs Yuri Hyuga (SH1) - At worst (i.e. Yuri goes last), Yuri should lap Miguel post-For Everyone and For Tomorrow until Yuri runs out of MP, finishing with a physical, actually works. Yuri1's pretty well built for these skirmishes. If he goes first, though, this is easier: 2HKO with For The Children. It -barely- works, but.
Miguel vs Yuri Hyuga (SH2) - On the other hand, Yuri2 kinda doesn't like being weak to Holy. Miguel scrapes the OHKO.
Miguel vs Killer (SH3) - Miguel going first kinda seals this. Killer gets two turns at most and can't really win with them. If he gets -OHKOed- (entirely reasonable), this gets even worse.
Miguel vs Reicher (MK2) - Even if Miguel immuned Holy, it wouldn't really pan out: Lightsword Swing unlocks at 75% HP and guarantees Reicher keeps his offense steadily powerful, and he wins durability in a very big gap.
Miguel vs Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) - I don't see Holy Dragon Sword being hit by Parasol, but the debuffs are fair game, which already puts a crimp on his offense. So, Quicken, stall, buff on occasional doubles and steadily whittle Miguel down.
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1) - Outsluggery.
Miguel vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT) - Holy immunity makes Miguel horrible.
Miguel vs Kaus Debonair (OB) - super's near-encyclopaedic knowledge of OB makes me trust him on his judgment here.
Miguel vs Demi (PS4) - That's a lot of pressure, methinks. TurnBlack likely tips the fight here, and if Miguel goes first (don't think that flies, but oh well), he OHKOs clean.
Miguel vs Hect (G3) - I don't think Hect can squeeze in enough damage even if she -does- get a turn.

7-4. I think it's pretty clear where he belongs, even with the Holy reliance. It cost him a match against Beo in this field, but it balanced by handing him the win against Yuri2.

Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Melfice (G2) - Moveblock hits turn two and that turns Pirate into a Light.
Pirate vs Yuri Hyuga (SH1) - Goes first and might well OHKO. Certainly doesn't need to.
Pirate vs Yuri Hyuga (SH2) - Also goes first and can control the match from there.
Pirate vs Killer (SH3) - Goes first and, even if he can't one-round/ID, Attack debuffing ensures he doesn't get OHKOed by Pirate. A two-rounding is a sure thing.
Pirate vs Reicher (MK2) - Dear god, this is ugly.
Pirate vs Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) - Both are very similar in speed and whoever goes first wins. Tiebreaking for Ceci as of now (I don't use the Runes average). EDIT: Yeah, by no Runes, Cecilia is - 0.2 SD, Pirate is - 0.26. There we have it.
Pirate vs Lucian (VP1) - I actually suspect that my higher VP averages mean Lucian actually misses the 2HKO post-Defang, which puts the ball in Pirate's court: Shin Smash, Defang, live through a second Lucian turn, Brave-blitz away.
Pirate vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT) - Survives a blitz and Pirate can't possibly block even all of Beo's match-winning turn one status. That's some spoiling.
Pirate vs Kaus Debonair (OB) - Kaus' fragmented damage hurts him a lot here. He gets one swing in before eating Defang. Then, Shin Smash => Shell Split get him going further. He may well troll for Adrenaline in order to bust his ass down.
Pirate vs Demi (PS4) - He can't OHKO Demi and this is a big problem. Pirate doing heal-locks with the costs on Amped Strike and Double Damage also doesn't work out too fabulously - to make things worse, his basic physical is egregiously bad.
Pirate vs Hect (G3) - I'm fairly sure he's faster.

3-8. That ain't a Godlike. He got mostly slaughtered by the Godlikes - the Heavies were more interesting fights.

Gangrel (FE13) vs Melfice (G2) - Melfice's in that "barely doubles average" range to me. Is that enough to avoid Gangrel's doubling to me? Hmmm, today, yes. Wailing Soul Slash should hit turn two and Gangrel only 3HKOs.
Gangrel vs Yuri Hyuga (SH1) - Goes first, OHKOs and avoids counters. Gangrel can't really deal with that.
Gangrel vs Yuri Hyuga(SH2) - Goes first, uses For Everyone and can control the fight enough for the evade to fail Gangrel.
Gangrel vs Killer (SH3) - Goes first and OHKOs with Vice Blade. Gangrel pdur is appalling.
Gangrel vs Reicher (MK2) - Gangrel likely gets OHKOed by a -single- Remote Mine. This is ugly.
Gangrel vs Cecilia Lynn Adlehyde (WA1) - Gangrel doesn't quite one-round Cecilia (I think it's sensible to see her at 0.93 mdur, which is the minimum needed to survive a Gangrel double), which makes any argument regarding Parasol moot. Ceci could just run Gangrel out of Levin Sword charges if he couldn't wait on his own turn, and she certainly can win this fight in -other- ways.
Gangrel vs Lucian (VP1) - I allow the throne bonuses, so Lucian gets fried by 4x Levin swords.
Gangrel vs Beowulf Kadmus (FFT) - White Robe and Aegis slow Gangrel down way too much. Shock! provides here.
Gangrel vs Kaus Debonair (OB) - Individual hits, individual counters and I THINK Kaus doesn't OHKO Gangrel with a single swipe. I kinda can't buy Debonair surviving a minimum of 4x Levin Swords.
Gangrel vs Demi (PS4) - At the very worst, goes first, Barrier lets her survive a Gangrel attack and then she just runs him out of offense.
Gangrel vs Hect (G3) - Well, if I see Ceci surviving a Gangrel turn, I certainly -do- see Hect doing so as well. If Dhyer's right on his defense evaluations, Hect should be at roughly 0.93 mdur herself, maybe a percent higher.

2-9. And neither is Gangrel. His game is pretty fun, but he really needs to end his fights very fast.
« Last Edit: May 16, 2014, 07:40:26 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2014, 12:54:46 AM »
Miguel is 250% according to the stat topic wat.  CC boss mechanics are a mysterious beast but I'm just gonna assume "fast" rather than "insane."  And mostly copy everyone else's votes anyway.

Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2)
Miguel vs Yuri (SH1)
Miguel vs Yuri (SH2)
Miguel vs Killer (SH3)
Miguel vs Cecilia (WA1)
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1)
Miguel vs Beowulf (FFT)
Miguel vs Debonair (OB)
Miguel vs Hect (G3)

Yar.

Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Melfice (G2)
Pirate vs Yuri (SH1)
Pirate vs Yuri (SH2)
Pirate vs Killer (SH3)
Pirate vs Cecilia (WA1)
Pirate vs Lucian (VP1) - Okay, so sure, Pirate does Shin Smash -> Defang, and baaaaaaaaaaaarely survives Lucian's 2nd round. (Lucian deals .86 PCHP, if Defang roughly halves damage, then Pirate is barely still alive for his turn 2).  But now Pirate MUST one-round or die, and those two hits didn't really buy that much damage?  Lucian 1.08 PCHP...  Pirate does Shell Split x2 -> Amped Strike -> Double Damage...  1570*3 + 1570 *1.14 + 6280*1.14 + 3140*1.25 = 17584 = 1.23 PCHP.  Well dang.
Pirate vs Beowulf (FFT)
Pirate vs Debonair (OB) - Yeah Adrenaline is kind of a problem vs. spread out multihits.  Not exactly sure how I see OB in the DL still but when Debonair's defense is debuffed, it doesn't look good, and even if he can get around it by playing slower, that just lets Pirate pile on more damage.
Pirate vs Hect (G3)


Dunno how much I respect the Fort, Gangrel's wake-up range is huge such that hitting him there might require the likes of promoted Sumia or rescue staff chains (and it'd be suicide anyway since he has friends there and killing him doesn't end the map).  BUT Gangrel isn't really getting scaled down due to huge support credit and moving in with it.  He's still frail but not FRAIL.  Also I think Elf's figures are without pair-up, and pair-up makes his stats not quite as hax. 

This...  doesn't actually change very much compared to everyone else, since competent Heavies should still be able to OHKO him, so he'd actually probably rather have the throne bonus and spoil those without ITE.

Gangrel (FE13) vs Melfice (G2)
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH1)
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH2) - Gangrel no likey buffers with healing who can wait out Lucky Seven.
Gangrel vs Killer (SH3)
Gangrel vs Cecilia (WA1) - Sure, Gangrel doesn't crit in time, I'll buy it.
Gangrel vs Lucian (VP1) - Things VP doesn't like: evasion.  (Unless Shining Bolt is seen as unblockable?  Still.)
Gangrel vs Beowulf (FFT) - I guess.
Gangrel vs Debonair (OB) - Debonair is pretty crazy accurate IIRC, but...  this is still rough.
Gangrel vs Hect (G3) Pretty sure Hect would survive under OK's numbers too.

Miguel: 6-3
Pirate: 3-6
Gangrel: 2-7

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2014, 01:16:07 AM »
Shining Bolt can be evaded just fine, though. And it -is- blockable (it just RARELY HELPS because of the insane amount of guard damage it does).
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2014, 01:45:27 AM »
Again, I am 99% certain 8 threat range is above average at Ch11 and unless for whatever reason you don't force the stupid actually mobile boss to move and attack the fort bonus literally does not matter at all here, meaning his evade is slightly on the wrong end of coinflip and honestly that's just not good enough as far as I'm concerned.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2014, 02:03:15 AM »
I -don't- force Gangrel to move, as in-game he doesn't start moving turn one (I allow him to wait on the throne, whatever). But I do force him to lose the bonuses if he goes first. GRANTED, above average range threat or not, he always loses average tiebreaks to me, like I do to all phase-based enemies in games where the player always goes first.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 02:27:52 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2014, 02:50:32 AM »
Oh okay that's fair.  I don't do that myself unless there is literally no other tiebreak because of people like Ashera of the practically infinite range MT, but completely reasonable if you do.  I'd say this results in a staring contest, but I don't remember if VP1 allowed for that.  And granted even if I allowed terrain bonuses I'd only ever allow them for mobile bosses if it were actually possible to tag them with it without pulling suicide strats.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2014, 03:22:20 AM by Random Consonant »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2014, 04:43:29 AM »
The argument for Miguel being fast is that CC PCs "crowd out" each other when it comes to turns. I don't personally really buy this argument, instead taking him at his listed speed, which is around 115%.

Miguel (CC) vs Melfice (G2): 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Miguel vs Yuri (SH1): Has holy resistance. 2HKOs with FtC. I might see TurnBlack getting rid of said resistance, but that's a turn he can't afford.
Miguel vs Yuri (SH2): Go first, OHKO. 25% holy weakness is very costly here.
Miguel vs Killer (SH3): Tough one. Whoever gets to turn 2 first wins, and this is pretty much a coinflip. Inclined to vote Miguel, though; he definitely wins on turn 2, whereas he might survive two Killer turns (Vice Blade, Red Crest->Attack double).
Miguel vs Reicher (MK2): Reicher is too high a Godlike for this pool.
Miguel vs Cecilia (WA1): I was all ready to vote for Miguel here - Parasol only stops PC magic, Holy Dragon Sword is exactly the type of special move it is worthless against - but stopping WeakMinded goes a long way. Still pretty dicy and in particular Cecilia loses if you see her healing as white, but I'm not too inclined to.
Miguel vs Lucian (VP1): 2HKOs faster.
Miguel vs Beowulf (FFT): I'm inclined to see TurnBlack getting rid of holy resistance, as mentioned, but absorption is no go: the in-game evidence there is clear.
Miguel vs Demi (PS4): Fractionally faster?
Miguel vs Zeno (BoF5): Fractionally faster. Again. Getting in a hit before Last Resort is huge.
Miguel vs Hect (G3): Hect only has a 3HKO here. Not good enough.

Pirate (Bravely Default) vs Melfice (G2): I'd see either blind or silence immunity (probably blind but could be argued) nailing Moveblock, and Melfice's evade is shitty enough in terms of coverage that pirate can go right through it. And it doesn't matter because Melfice is so much faster (especially against a statusblocking Pirate) and hits both defences so as to not fear either debuff especially.
Pirate vs Yuri (SH1): Yeah. If pirate somehow does get a turn, what is he going to do exactly? Pretty sure Yuri1 can tank a pirate turn.
Pirate vs Yuri (SH2): Better at this whole buffing thing.
Pirate vs Killer (SH3): Red Crest is nastier than Defang, and Killer has so many other options. Pirate does have a slim case to go first and one-round but not inclined to buy it.
Pirate vs Reicher (MK2): Well this is ugly for so many reasons. Reason #13: Stat downs do not affect timed spheres.
Pirate vs Cecilia (WA1): Faster. Prison.
Pirate vs Lucian (VP1): Usual disclaimer of not taking really high pdur figures literally. Defang halving damage sounds more reasonable to me, and yeah halving isn't good enough here since Lucian gets in the first turn. If Pirate opts for a two-axe blitz, Lucian just manages a OHKO.
Pirate vs Beowulf (FFT): Surprised at the Beowulf votes here, unless you see his evasion working? Pirate is faster, pirate does 119% damage if he goes for a blitz, Beowulf has 114% HP.
Pirate vs Demi (PS4): Pirate does not like even the mildly tanky. He can't really put on the needed pressure without two axes, and with two axes... well he gets 2HKOed for starters. He can try to drop speed, then lap? That... hm. Works on damage. Speed... Demi is 113% then 84% after pirate's turn, pirate is 93%... yeah, instant lap isn't possible, so pirate needs to one-round and falls short against 1.25 pdur.
Pirate vs Zeno (BoF5): Last Resort gonna make a mockery of pirate offence and pirate can't really deal with that.
Pirate vs Hect (G3): He's not much faster, but he is faster. Splat. (For what it's worth he can probably tank one Hect turn anyway; she wishes Freeze didn't suck.)

Gangrel (FE13) vs Melfice (G2): Melfice just barely manages to avoid being doubled to me, and thus shreds with Demon Horde Slash x2 at worst.
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH1): Tanks a Gangrel turn, then makes him go kaboom.
Gangrel vs Yuri (SH2): Same thing pretty much.
Gangrel vs Killer (SH3): MT physicals? The worst thing.
Gangrel vs Reicher (MK2): Oh no. This is not good.
Gangrel vs Cecilia (WA1): Survive a turn, haste/heal/etc. Gangrel has no crit so yeah no way to win.
Gangrel vs Lucian (VP1): Okay, VP accuracy. Compared to Lucian... the three archers have about ~70 more base hit, but this is mostly offset by the Crimson Edge and Bolt-Aqqar (used by 3 PCs) having 60-70 less accuracy. I dunno. Lucian obviously wants to wait for Gangrel to go and then kill? But eh. Tiebreak for the fact that Lucian's combo is a bit weird and that his mdur just might be low enough to get one-rounded anyway (probably not but it's kinda close).
Gangrel vs Beowulf (FFT): Probably.
Gangrel vs Demi (PS4): Yep.
Gangrel vs Zeno (BoF5): Well her misses trigger counters but hmm. She can... very likely afford one miss? After Last Resort she has over 2x average mdur. Yeah.
Gangrel vs Hect (G3): I'm not certain if he one-rounds. I'm not certain if he evades turn 1. When either judgment call results in a win... sure.

Miguel 7-4. Definitely belongs in Godlike despite disliking holy defence. Near-OHKO damage which only gets better, and the speed/durability are enough above par to win plenty of fights.
Pirate 2-9. The versatility is nice, but ultimately not sure how many fights it wins because resource issues (both BP and MP) really temper his game. In practice he pretty badly needs the opponent to die within two turns, sometimes one.
Gangrel 2-9. Coinflip evade is really weird. He gives me a headache. Not Godlike though regardless.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2014, 04:46:26 AM »
Also, Gangrel effectively is forced to move, Snow. If he sits there waiting for the opponent to attack, the opponent will sit there waiting for Gangrel to attack. Repeat for seven turns, at which point Lucky Seven wears off and hey the question is moot.

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2014, 05:27:22 AM »
He also effectively never gets a useful turn in the throne in-game. This for me exists mostly to justify me even -giving- him first-turn, before-he-goes throne bonuses at all. I honestly think Gangrel wishes he didn't move for DL purposes.
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds H/G 2-The gloves come off
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2014, 05:45:07 AM »
Which is why support credit is a thing that merits consideration.  FE bosses who let all their friends die while sitting on a throne <<<< ones that join in the fray with their allies in-game.