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Author Topic: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.  (Read 1870 times)

superaielman

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This is just a for the hell of it pool, like the puny group. I grabbed three nasty godlikes from recent games and threw them against a really strong field.

Alternis Dim- Loves coffee and kicking ass, and he's all out of coffee.
Orphan- FF13's final. Lots of durability and some nasty debuffs to round out the package.
Reicher-  Block holy or be prepared for infinite pain.

Alternis (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Alternis vs Myria (BoF3)
Alternis vs Souji (Pers4)
Alternis vs Yuna (FFX)
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Alternis vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Alternis vs Ryu (BoF3)
Alternis vs Jade (BoF1)
Alternis vs Belial (WA4)
Alternis vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Alternis vs Loki (VP1)
Alternis vs Lady (SH3)

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Orphan vs Myria (BoF3)
Orphan vs Souji (Pers4)
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX)
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Orphan vs Ryu (BoF3)
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1)
Orphan vs Belial (WA4)
Orphan vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Orphan vs Loki (VP1)
Orphan vs Lady (SH3)

Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Reicher vs Myria (BoF3)
Reicher vs Souji (Pers4)
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX)
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3)
Reicher vs Jade (BoF1)
Reicher vs Belial (WA4)
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Reicher vs Loki (VP1)
Reicher vs Lady (SH3)
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2014, 02:56:14 AM »
Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)- Timed Cards are just going to shred Ghaleon's shield, and Reicher's own shield is more durable. He should be able to slug down even with Ghaleon's good defense.
Reicher vs Myria (BoF3)- Strong kneejerk. Myria's much faster but that offense is pain and suffering.
Reicher vs Souji (Pers4)- Immunes physicals. Goodbye!
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX)- Think Reicher's out of his depth there. Aeons do too much damage.
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7)- Sephiroth's not that durable.
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)- I think so? High defense. If he resists light as well Reicher is just boned.
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3) - Yeah I definitely see Ryu catching stun and that defense. Uh. Yeah.
Reicher vs Jade (BoF1)- Reicher's faster? Huh. That's usually bad news.
Reicher vs Belial (WA4)- Belial is so, so dead the second she's caught with her shield down. I also think reicher had some MT in the mix.
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4)- Oh my god, the damage.
Reicher vs Loki (VP1)- Usual Loki respect.
Reicher vs Lady (SH3)- His shield slows down enough of Lady's blitz.

Alternis (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)- Chaos Shield does it's job here.
Alternis vs Myria (BoF3)
Alternis vs Souji (Pers4)- Shouldn't give Alternis more than one Minus Strike, which he can survive.
Alternis vs Yuna (FFX)
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7)- The speed makes this interesting but I don't think it's enough. 
Alternis vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)- Minus Strike does it's thing.
Alternis vs Ryu (BoF3)- Yeesh. Minus Strike might kill some dragons but it's not going to be enough. 
Alternis vs Jade (BoF1)- Good question. Depends on how much HP I see Alternis having. Don't think speed matters here as both are on the slow side and Alternis is a limit boss anyway.
Alternis vs Belial (WA4)
Alternis vs Profound Darkness (PS4)- Enough HP to absorb a minus strike at worst.
Alternis vs Loki (VP1)- Not enough respect for Indisc. Loki comes surprisingly close anyway, Alternis doesn't like high defense.
Alternis vs Lady (SH3)

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)- Chaos shield does it's thing.
Orphan vs Myria (BoF3)- I'll buy the Myria being faster part.
Orphan vs Souji (Pers4)- I think Souji takes this if he blocks ID.
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX)
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7)- Don't think Seph has enough HP for this. Orphan has at least triple his HP, it's kind of gross.
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Orphan vs Ryu (BoF3)- Dragons... I don't think I see them immune to deprotect/shell? Ryu's just under immense resource pressure the entire fight.
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1)- Stat debuffs are going to do very, very bad things to Jade.
Orphan vs Belial (WA4)- Belial's tricks do not hold up well against durable godlikes.
Orphan vs Profound Darkness (PS4)- Better earlier.
Orphan vs Loki (VP1)- Loki HP, still bad. This is still at least kind of close because Orphan's kinda scrubby at high HP.
Orphan vs Lady (SH3)- HP.

Orphan: 8-4
Reicher: 8-4. High defense godlikes and nasty PC's hand him his head. Otherwise, good luck dealing with him!
Alternis: 5-6. Nasty Godlike but this is a champ level field.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:04:49 PM by superaielman »
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Meeple> knownig Square-enix, they'll just give us a 2nd Kain
<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2014, 03:31:34 AM »
Alternis Dim (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Alternis isn't much faster than Ghaleon, so Chaos Shield just spoils the hell out of him.
Alternis Dim vs Myria (BoF3) - dur i read gud
Alternis Dim vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - Physical immunity is a nice way to trivialize Alternis. I guess Yu's boned if you see Minus Strike going through that, but I'm not so sure about that, given how I see stuff like Takedown facing physical immunity due to ramming into Utsusemi.
Alternis Dim vs Yuna (FFX) - Alternis, pretty worthless against high Godlikes at high HP. Yuna just builds up Overdrive for a tasty Oblivion splattering - with some chipping on the side if she cares.
Alternis Dim vs Sephiroth (FF7) - I see Minus Strike getting walled against Fly and Seph has constant doubles on Alternis' egregious speed. Wall => Fly => outslug. Alternis can even use Dark Bane, but that's way too tall an order with that level of a speed split.
Alternis Dim vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - Now that's more like it. Fou-Lu can't possibly avoid the Minus Strike phase, and that's a OHKO on him.
Alternis Dim vs Ryu (BoF3) - Ryu3 getting turns is kinda awfully ugly.
Alternis Dim vs Jade (BoF1) - Jade only (!!!) 3HKOs Alternis, but his HP lets him survive a Minus Strike. The speed undoes the Dark Knight again.
Alternis Dim vs Belial (WA4) - Alternis comes so close to OHKOing Belial with Black Bane, but doesn't quite pull it off. She gets seven turns to kill Alternis with (would be eight, but she has to use Distortion before Alternis gets a turn lest she wants to eat Minus Strike), which amounts to roughly 3.85x PC HP... and Alternis is around 3.81x PC HP to me. Having any more respect for Alternis' HP gives this to him, though.
Alternis Dim vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Profound Darkness wins HP, but isn't much better at speed. Once she rams into his Minus Strike phase, she just gets chippershredded (mostly, I don't see her surviving Minus Strike x2 - she sits at around 6x PC HP to me, for whatever it's worth, though my recollection may be off).
Alternis Dim vs Loki (VP1) - EDIT: Nevermind, Elfboy's rundown works. No reason why Loki shouldn't see at least a 4-3 with Alternis hitting the wrong defensive stat until below 50% HP.
Alternis Dim vs Lady (SH3) - Lady -needs- to chip, but I think this she can do, especially with an easy 4-3 (possibly even a 3-2) on Alternis. She should be able to end the fight within three turns fair and square.

3-9. The speed really costs him against the top echelons of Godlike, so does not being able to Brave. Minus Strike is mighty impressive and so is the durability, but he really wishes he wasn't a Heavy until below half HP. His issues don't really show until you ram him against the cream of the crop, but guess what happened here.

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Well, against bosses, I see Merciless Judgment dealing 99% PC HP against average defenses (being lowerable by a high defense stat and whatever, but this -also- applies to PCs for me). Problem, though, is as Elfboy mentioned: Orphan just loses on damage way too badly for pretty much all of the fight in spite of the speed split and that gets emphasized by Chaos Shield. And, as he mentioned, they aren't nearly -that- far apart in durability. Orphan wishes his debuffs worked on most DL bosses.
Orphan vs Myria (BoF3) - Burping Elfboy.
Orphan vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - PCs are far more in Orphan's favor than bosses. Yu has absolutely no recourse against Orphan's debuffs and status mix and that's -way- too much durability for him to chew through.
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX) - Magus Sisters Go To Town: A Blockbuster Rampage Movie.
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7) - I think the speed split's a bit much. Seph's 3x PC HP post-Wall and Orphan's so much of a wuss at high HP that it doesn't really pan out.
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - Dies Irae, saving Orphan's ass.
Orphan vs Ryu (BoF3) - Ryu getting turns, never a pretty prospect.
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1) - At least -some- of Orphan's status are getting through.
Orphan vs Belial (WA4) - Ow ow ow Merciless Judgment or Dies Irae.
Orphan vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Enough of a damage edge throughout the fight.
Orphan vs Loki (VP1) - Not sure I have enough Loki HP respect for this.
Orphan vs Lady (SH3) - If I'm not sure I see Loki having enough durability for this, certainly Lady won't fare better.

4-8. Orphan doesn't really like having such a bad high HP phase against the status-immune (low 3HKO physical and 7HKO magical backup? Are you kidding me? Being lenient on his form shifts doesn't even help a ton, just useful against PCs really). Even his lower HP phases aren't that impressive without that Merciless Judgment push. PCs really have it in for it if they have status holes (and Yu's riddled with them), but besides that, Orphan really needs to ride off his amazing durability and that doesn't always pan out.

Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Dude, that's a -LOT- of damage. Reicher hits the wrong defensive stat and it doesn't even matter because it's just so overwhelming. Ghaleon attempting Chaos Shield is equivalent to trying to fend off a boulder with a parasol.
Reicher vs Myria (BoF3) - Myria speed gives her a case, but Remote Mines pile up so brutally. I don't think she can quite pull it off.
Reicher vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - Reicher gets walled entirely by a base-level Yoshitsune. Yu might as well hit Triangle and win this fight with PERSONA 4 BASIC PHYSICALS.
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX) - See NEB. Yojimbo likely solos this fight.
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Seph even tries with the offense and Wall, but Reicher just gets going way too well.
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - Oh dear god, physical quartering AND holy walling alongside ITD damage, this ain't pretty.
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3) - Physical walling is a go.
Reicher vs Jade (BoF1) - You don't really want to attempt physicals against Jade. Even if they're as badass as Reicher's.
Reicher vs Belial (WA4) - Remote Mine alone is pretty brutal against Belial. The MT once he hits 75% HP is nice gravy.
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - OW OW OW OW OW Remote Mines hitting weakness against PD holy CRAP.
Reicher vs Loki (VP1) - I -think-. Loki should get a third turn with that pdur, and this is all he needs.
Reicher vs Lady (SH3) - Lady, on the other hand, gets no such luck. I could be amenable to seeing timed cards hit by dispel (the only dispel in the game undoes cards, after all), but he doesn't face that.

6-6. Yeah, as long as he doesn't get walled, he gets to slug it down with the damned best there are. The walling is definitely a problem, though.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2014, 02:02:44 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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superaielman

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2014, 03:51:07 AM »
Yeah I don't think I see minus strike getting Fly. It doesn't actually run off anything physical in game, the damage is even non typed. And it's Myria 3 for this topic, I try and specify forms for sanity/avoiding votesplit reasons in PG.
"Reputation is what other people know about you. Honor is what you know about yourself"- Count Aral Vorkosigan, A Civil Campaign
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<Ciato> he would be so kawaii as a chibi...

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2014, 04:24:54 AM »
Minus Strike's physical (hits Utsusemi and Rampart) and furthermore is easily spoiled in-game by those two moves, so it doesn't feel unreasonable to me to punish it against Fly which is at least kinda similar.

Don't think I buy it myself though. Minus Strike doesn't feel melee to me.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2014, 08:33:25 AM »
Alternis (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Alternis is definitely faster, but probably not enough. Ghaleon can withstand one Minus Strike (even after Alternis' opening turn) and should kill before Alternis can double twice.
Alternis vs Myria (BoF3): Alternis is getting three turns minimum, and one is a Minus Strike. But that might not kill Myria, actually... his damage is a little worse than I thought. He certainly wins if he gets in another turn, so... does he? Hmm. Myria has a 7HKO (Alternis never gives her a turn with Mjollnir), so she needs to 7-4... which yeah, no way. 6-4 absolutely, 7-4 no. Close, though! Certainly no slaughter.
Alternis vs Yuna (FFX): Several ways to do this, but the funniest is to cast Protect, turtle until overdrive, then hit Alternis with more damage than even he himself can do.
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7): Not inclined to see fly working here as mentioned... but I think Seph can dodge the limit. He can chip nicely with Shadow Flare + Deen x2, doing just shy of half of Alternis' HP, than unload two Shadow Flares on a double? Alternis can't avoid this by waiting since both wait and I force both to attack with something they don't yet have available, then Seph finishes the job regardless. Huh. This only works because Seph can chip down quickly and efficiently; he doesn't fear a couple Black Banes.
Alternis vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Don't think Fou-Lu has the damage to pull off what Sephiroth does (never mind the speed difference is really small, which gives Alternis a lot of time even considering how bad his damage is against Fou. One Minus Strike should settle this.
Alternis vs Ryu (BoF3): Don't give Ryu3 turns, kids.
Alternis vs Jade (BoF1): So uh yeah I don't think Minus Strike even 2HKOs. Jade is nuts. Bolt X remains the superior overkill.
Alternis vs Belial (WA4): I don't see Alternis' speed nearly as bad as Snow does, I guess, since Belial only gets six turns before his second, which he uses to 2HKO her with Black Bane of course. That's not enough.
Alternis vs Profound Darkness (PS4): They're almost the same speed. Can PD survive two Minus Strikes and two Black Banes? I don't see much reason why not, actually. She's silly. It gets worse if she can dodge the limit for one turn while 4HKOing which is possible offhand.
Alternis vs Loki (VP1): Chip for three turns, unload two Indiscriminates on the double.
Alternis vs Lady (SH3): Never faces Minus Strike... should have the offence and offensive variation not to mention back-ended smash to handle this.

FWIW I don't believe -both- Deprotect and Deshell power up Dies Irae; rather, it hits the lower of physical and magical resistance, so either does it. Against someone with lopsided defences (Fou-Lu) he wants to apply Deshell since MDef is what he wants to hit. I'm not 100% certain this is how the "P&M" moves work but it fits my memories.

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Orphan has a 3-2 here so Ghaleon can somewhat wall the danger phase (not completely) and the high-HP phase just isn't that great, mustering about 45% PCHP for every cycle of Ghaleon doing OHKO damage, and their durabilities aren't -that- far apart.
Orphan vs Myria (BoF3): Well they are both limit bosses. Myria is notably faster. Short form: Orphan does ~30% above 40% HP, 52% once below 40% then 104% thereafter. Myria does 59% then 77%. Myria needs roughly 13 turns to win, Orphan needs roughly 12. Myria is enough faster for this.
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX): Aeon smashy smashy.
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7): Sephiroth has a 7HKO and surely has a 7-4. 4 Orphan turns... hmm. Don't think that's enough, not enough are above the limit. Orphan might be able to try to twist things by planting Deprotect/shell early, but Seph can dispel those or use Wall to cancel them out, so I think that's a losing prospect.
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Orphan gets off too many Dies Iraes and they hit too hard.
Orphan vs Ryu (BoF3): In theory this might tax Ryu3's resources a bit but I don't think so. It helps that Orphan is mostly a wuss at high HP. Merciless Judgement being useful against dragons does make this interesting, though... if he could spam it I think he might win? But it's a bit too restricted for me to allow that.
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1): Jade has similar durability. Everything else...
Orphan vs Belial (WA4): He has some MT in there, including Dies Irae.
Orphan vs Profound Darkness (PS4): More damaging throughout the fight.
Orphan vs Loki (VP1): Loki can certainly hit hard, but dunno if it's enough. I guess he's got a 5HKO here or so, so Orphan gets two Dies Iraes... actually no that isn't enough, his stuff above half HP is physical unless he switches forms, and that's not doing the needed extra damage. Maybe I should allow that more often?
Orphan vs Lady (SH3): Lady needs 6 turns for this, by my count. Can Orphan kill in 5? Seeing as one will be a Dies Irae (Lady can dodge the limit kinda, but not entirely)... I don't think so.

Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Ghaleon probably gives Chaos Shield the finger here and goes for the 5HKO. 5HKOing Reicher does not work, he gets shredded. Ghaleon does have some evasion, but it's irrelevant in-game so not sure how much respect it deserves here. It -could- tilt the fight but I don't think so.
Reicher vs Myria (BoF3): Myria has like a 7HKO. Speed helps, but yeah, same problem as above.
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX): Yojimbo alone gives Reicher ten sorts of headaches. It's kinda ridiculous how much evade matters.
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7): Should handle this. Seph has the offence, but not really the durability.
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Resists both holy AND physicals. One eighth damage or whatever? Yikes. To make matters worse, Fou-Lu's opening move is ITD which uh will take off like half of Reicher's hit points right away.
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3): The usual. Dragons have insane defence to make matters worse, Reicher only damages them if he breaks them and even then...
Reicher vs Jade (BoF1): Too much physical durability, too much damage (of the right type, at that). (Also for what it's worth, Reicher isn't faster, but it doesn't matter much since Reicher does almost no damage on his own turn.)
Reicher vs Belial (WA4): Remote Blade spam will mostly punch through that shield or make her constantly respawn it, and yeah he has some MT. To make matters worse if he gets two turns below 75% HP he wins immediately.
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Oh god that's a lot of damage. PD puts up a good fight, with that HP, but this is Reicher vs. Satanail all over again: Reicher's first turn will output over 4PCHP by itself. Ugly start.
Reicher vs Loki (VP1): Loki has a 3HKO here, and Reicher is physical. Don't think physicals work very well.
Reicher vs Lady (SH3): Unless Lost Progress dispels timed spheres. There's a case certainly, and makes Reicher into an unhappy camper. If he faced Roxis or Enna I would be inclined to say this happens; as is I'll kneejerk the other way.

Reicher 6-5. He doesn't like defence or evade or holy defence much. Have none of that and he slugs you down like the best. He's also not a big fan of ITD but there isn't much in this field. Certainly a good Godlike, and I'm not surprised he had the best record in this field.

Alternis 3-8. Not quite as broken as I thought actually. Bosses with overkill damage who are faster than him can often deal with him, as do those with stupidly high HP (since 3.2 is crazy but not -that- crazy in Godlike... it's just two castings of Bolt X!). Still... those were High Godlikes and he didn't acquit himself terribly. Wonder how the other really nasty BD godlike bosses (swordmaster, templar, penultimate) would look by comparison. If I have time I may do a mini-PG for my own sake there.

Orphan 3-8. Overall mostly a worse version of Jade/Profound Darkness/Satanail/etc. He has great durability, but the high-HP phase is just bad. He'll get a little less bad if I let him swap forms at will, open to arguments there. Merciless Judgement spam could also help against Ryu potentially though I'm not sure.

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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2014, 05:59:13 PM »
Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Better at the same game.
Reicher vs Souji (Pers4) - lolshitsune autopilot strats what
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX) - yojimbo strats what
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7) - There is something of a durability difference here.
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - That ain't pretty.
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3) - Ryu3 and getting turns.
Reicher vs Belial (WA4) - Splat.
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - That ain't pretty.
Reicher vs Loki (VP1) - Yeah even Reicher-level physicals aren't that great an idea against Loki.
Reicher vs Lady (SH3) - Probably.  Timed spheres might not get zapped by the dispel and it might not matter if they do.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2014, 06:00:58 PM by Random Consonant »

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2014, 07:26:39 PM »
And some more BD.




Penultimate (BD) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): S/he has a 4HKO which Ghaleon can't really slow down with Chaos Shield (Acedia lol), Ghaleon probably has a 4HKO back if he never uses Chaos Shield. Guess who's faster.
Penultimate vs Myria (BoF3): Myria having fire damage does help, but it's still only a 6HKO I think. The BD boss wants to use fire as well probably. Myria certainly has a 6-5 at worst, though not a 6-4, so Penultimate gets off 4 attacks... and that's probably a bit too much.
Penultimate vs Yuna (FFX): Penultimate can't do damage on both sides of a double act. S/he -can- one-shot several of the aeons (two-round while defaulting first turn at worst)... though not Anima? Giving Anima two turns minimum is a lot of damage to be taking, have to imagine the rest can handle it from there. Since penultimate can't do two damage-dealing moves on a double, killing Yuna isn't an option until all the aeons fall.
Penultimate vs Sephiroth (FF7): If Seph doesn't use Wall... he has a 4HKO and a 4-3. But a Zeta Flare + Slaughter takes him down really easily. So he does use Wall. Penultimate uses Acedia/Zetaflare and rips off most of his HP, then Slaughter next turn, and it seems pretty unlikely that Seph can kill before penultimate's third turn... that'd need a 5-3 which yeah no.
Penultimate vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Oh god, fire magic. Oh god, penultimate is faster. Yikes.
Penultimate vs Ryu (BoF3): Unsure. Ryu can have fire res + dragon defence so penultimate MUST use Acedia to deal with Kaiser. He transforms, s/he defaults. At this point Acedia/Zetaflare, then another Zetaflare can 2HKO Kaiser. Of course Ryu certainly has a 4-3, so will use a Kaiserbreath, Bonebreak, and physical. That's pretty close to killing right there, and Ryu will get another turn.
Penultimate vs Jade (BoF1): Jade has a 3HKO and is faster, this feels hopeless.
Penultimate vs Belial (WA4): Has MT.
Penultimate vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Close slugfest here. Penultimate has a 6-5... and isn't 4HKOed so yeah six turns is happening. Does s/he 6HKO PD? Gosh, that's close. Inclined to tiebreak for penultimate though. It's possible that a default buys penultimate an extra hit which would certainly push them past the 6HKO edge.
Penultimate vs Loki (VP1): Loki has a 3HKO (too bad the fire spells aren't stronger or a 2HKO might be possible), Penultimate has brutal magic damage the other way.
Penultimate vs Lady (SH3): Slaughter probably just OHKOs.

Penultimate 8-3. Scary. You can't really spoil this (both damage types, dispel-only-worse, some status tricks which didn't come up in this field), you just have to outslug, and outslugging someone with 1.5-1.7 overkill and 4.3 PCHP is hard. Not even slow like most BD bosses. Loses to Rubicant though! But yeah, High Godlike is High.


For sanity's sake I'm just going to take Braev's "limit range" as the last 25% of his total HP instead of three little windows. IIRC that's how it worked in the Sage sidequest refight and is just easier to deal with, while being roughly as good overall.

Braev (BD) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Braev has a 6-5 or so. I think this goes... Default, CS+Attack, Default, Hellwave+Attack, Brave combo, Hellwave+Attack, Default, CS+Attack, Default, Brave combo, Hellwave+Attack? Hm. Ghaleon has done 3.1 by now, Braev has done 1.9? Think Chaos Shield has just eaten too much of Braev's offence here, not to mention he is hitting the wrong defence. He'll get one final blitz at the end and that will hurt, but don't think it's enough.
Braev vs Myria (BoF3): Myria has a 3-2 here. Sirocco, Default, Sirocco x2, Default, Sirocco, combo. Myria has done 1PC, Braev has done 1.7... which is a lead for him on their relative HP totals, although Myria is closer to her next double and has a limit. Then again, she probably can't dodge Braev's own limit, and Braev does seem to be generally doing better here.
Braev vs Yuna (FFX): Braev has a reasonable shot at taking down an aeon and Yuna at once, as Heart Strike will OHKO her. So she casts Protect on herself first, letting her survive whatever Braev does, although is 2HKOed. He can attack her first turn if he wants, but then she heals and this is just giving her an overdrive, so he defaults instead and Yuna summons and prepares to smite. Now Yuna can stand up to whatever he does outside the 25% HP limit and with Anima onhand she can dodge that.
Braev vs Sephiroth (FF7): Seph has a 5-3 minimum, and can cast Wall. Radiant Blast probably goes through Wall to me, but that's still quite a cut. Think Seph can manage this.
Braev vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Physical defence! Holy defence! Think that's a bit too much.
Braev vs Ryu (BoF3): Physicals against Ryu.
Braev vs Jade (BoF1): You guys really need to spoil lightning or something.
Braev vs Belial (WA4): Heart Strike on the back end of a combo OHKOs.
Braev vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Well Shadowbreath in the first form will -really- hurt, he needs that form dead ASAP. Unfortunately I see no way she doesn't get at least two shots in even with him hitting holy weakness on Radiant Blast.
Braev vs Loki (VP1): Kneejerk of physicals not being enough here.
Braev vs Lady (SH3): Think Braev one-rounds with a combo and can survive until then.

Braev 3-8. Like Alternis, good but not ridiculously amazing.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2014, 02:26:56 PM »
Putting the non-official stuff on a different post for reasons of clutter and QADA.

Oogie-Boogie (BD) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Well, for starters, Oogie-Boogie 3-2s. Acedia makes a mockery of Chaos Shield, so Ghaleon frankly just gives that the finger and goes straight for the throat (hitting weakness is pretty irrelevant, doesn't even outdamage 2x physical). Post-Acedia, Zeta Flare goes for... 1.7x PC HP, jesus, that's horrible. Oogie-Boogie 3HKOs at worst and Ghaleon himself 4HKOs while eating a 3-2 turnsplit. That can't possibly work out for him.
Oogie-Boogie vs Myria (BoF3): Sanctuary means Acedia is out, but Myria still has absolutely no hope at outslugging 1.5x PC HP a pop off 4x PC HP when her damage output clocks in at 50% at best of her opposition's steady offense. Myria's HP disadvantage's even surmountable, but she loses way too badly in damage even when hitting weakness to make this work - Oogie-Boogie ain't too far from a 2HKO and a 3HKO is easy-peasy.
Oogie-Boogie vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - Well, Yu needs to go Yoshitsune in order to handle Slaughter, needs Angelic Grace to not eat it to Dark Abyss => Plague and needs to have his Endure skills to survive Acedia => Zeta Flare. He has nowhere near the speed edge needed long-term to really punish Oogie-Boogie fast enough and the Auto-skills are asking for Acedia. If he stays in Yoshitsune even for a single turn, Zeta Flare OHKOs his ass. No, that just doesn't work.
Oogie-Boogie vs Yuna (FFX): Yeah, Oogie-Boogie wishes its Brave string had double-ended offense. As is, smashy smashy provides.
Oogie-Boogie vs Sephiroth (FF7): - Dear god, Acedia => Zeta Flare actually OHKOs Sephy to me and it doesn't even -HAVE- to. Seph's absolutely incapable of even 3HKOing back (in the admittedly somewhat unlikely hypothesis of a 3-2) and Wall's a waste of time.
Oogie-Boogie vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): - OVERKILL FIRE MAGIC. AGAINST FOU-LU. OFF SARA-LEVEL HP. FASTER THAN HIM.
Oogie-Boogie vs Ryu (BoF3): Giving turns to Ryu is just so ugly. It's impressive that Oogie-Boogie even fights back as well as it does.
Oogie-Boogie vs Jade (BoF1): Dear god, people, why do you keep coming to Jade without lightning spoiling?
Oogie-Boogie vs Belial (WA4): Zeta Flare. Gooooooooooooooodbye.
Oogie-Boogie vs Profound Darkness (PS4): The first form even -does- hit a weakness, but I don't think it even gets a turn, Zeta Flare is nasty.
Oogie-Boogie vs Loki (VP1): Acedia => Zeta Flare is a OHKO as far as I can see. Loki can't quite 2HKO even if he goes first, methinks, unless he gets HORRENDOUSLY lucky with Indiscriminate.
Oogie-Boogie vs Lady (SH3): Ew, Slaughter OHKOs Lady's ass.

9-3. Yikes. Oogie-Boogie just has a little bit of everything - and all in High Godlike superlatives. Horrifying offense of both types that, given setup, can -not- be walled, status games for those rainy PC days and admirable durability. The beast ain't even -slow-, unlike its fellow BD bosses, which just makes it even better. Fire vulnerability also doesn't even -matter- most of the time, though it means Rubicante hands Oogie-Boogie its ass on a silver platter. Still, that's monstrous, you need to be outright broken to topple a package this complete.

Braev Lee (BD) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Eeeeeew, Braev's two SDs below average speed - i.e. Ghaleon-level under my assumptions. Regardless, each of Braev's phases counts for 1.4x PC HP, totalling 4.2x PC HP. Due to speed instability generally favoring Braev in-game, though, I assume he goes first, so Default away. Before Braev unleashes his Brave string, Ghaleon effectively chips off 31% of Braev's HP on loop 1 (he -is- casting Chaos Shield at some point, after all). Braev, however, probably won't go far just trying to string along for a forced limit (not that it matters MUCH, I force him to go on the offensive once he maxes out on BP): Ghaleon has non-damage actions, after all, and his chipping is nothing short of spectacular -anyway-. I kneejerk Ghaleon as having around 5x PC HP against physicals. First Braev string breaks Chaos Shield and chops off... 19% of Ghal's HP. The way I take Braev, this just -isn't- working, a double doesn't happen ever and Ghaleon can easily chip past each limit phase even if I allow Braev to buffer his HP (will assume I do -for now-, mostly for later fights).
Braev Lee vs Myria (BoF3): Braev 2HKOs Myria 3 with a Radiant Blast => Heart Strike string and a low HP Giant Slayer => Heart Strike => Radiant Blast burst, but nothing else kills her this quickly and she has a 2.7 turnsplit on him (i.e. a 5-2), and he -also- needs to chip because once she hits Holocaust land, she's killing each Braev phase for every turn of his unless he defaults! So, first form puts him in at 23% HP of his first loop before he gets a turn. He Defaults, Myria fells loop one (takes all her three turns, though). Default again, Braev is now at 70% HP of loop 2. By the time Braev gets 2 BP and unleashes his basic Brave string, Myria already lopped off half his total health and gets a couple free cracks at him again. Yeah, I don't think this works out great. If he 2HKOed with two base Brave strings, maybe.
Braev Lee vs. Yu Narukami (Pers4): Yoshitsune Autopilot Strats: The Movie.
Braev Lee vs Yuna (FFX): See NEB, really.
Braev Lee vs Sephiroth (FF7): I -suspect- I see Giant Slayer and Heart Strike as melee, which ain't too pretty. I'm even amenable to seeing Wall < Radiant Blast, but  that -juuuuuuust- misses a 2HKO on Seph for me and... hmmmm. I think Seph misses the 5-2 Myria gets on him and he -obviously- has to open with Fly. He actually 5HKOs to me, though! So yeah.
Braev Lee vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Reicher clause.
Braev Lee vs Ryu (BoF3): Seriously, kids, don't let Ryu3 get turns.
Braev Lee vs Jade (BoF1): And don't stumble into Jade without lightning spoiling either. Let alone sporting only physicals.
Braev Lee vs Belial (WA4): On the other hand, Braev can live long enough to land a Brave string on Belial, and that's all he needs.
Braev Lee vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Profound Darkness is faster, its first form hits weakness and Braev can't really do better than 3HKOing with his Brave strings even factoring in Radiant Blast hitting weakness itself. NEB's entirely right.
Braev Lee vs Loki (VP1): Good lord, Loki OHKOs each form on average. Default stalling into unleashes ain't really cutting it against that pdef.
Braev Lee vs Lady (SH3): On the other hand, Braev scrapes a OHKO against Lady with his base string. She does hit weakness, but... I doubt she can reach one-rounding range -through default-, since she only 3-2s.

3-9. The problems are pretty clear here as well. The speed's even worse than Alternis', which hurts his game a whole damned lot, especially against the durable. It's impressive how such a methodic game even makes any sort of waves against high Godlikes, though, as shown by his manhandling of Lady. Braev's at his best when he can one-round the opposition with a single string, and evade, holy defense -and- physical defense can foil this.

Nobutsuna Kamiizumi (BD) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC): Well, double-acting and Chaos Shield are just the thing to spoil Nobutsuna's counter game of doom and destruction. So, his hope lies in... outslugging Ghaleon. Ramming against those defenses, having two-turn recharges and facing Chaos Shield to soften the blows, no, that's not really happening, especially because he's barely faster than Ghaleon anyway.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Myria (BoF3): If Myria tries to slug past Kamiizumi's counters, she's getting SPLATTERED because Know Thine Enemy OHKOs (by the skin of its teeth, but it's enough) and his stances are faster than she is. He could win this by spamming Know Thine Enemy all day and physicalling on the rare double to minimize her turns. Discounting that... well, Myria has the same speed split she had against Braev here and Kamiizumi's over a bar of PC HP below that... but, of course, if he OHKOs with Know Thine Enemy, he two-rounds with a physical => Brave string, and Myria certainly won't finish him off with the five turns she gets.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - Yoshitsune Autopilot Strats: The Saturday Morning Cartoon.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Yuna (FFX): Yuna thanks her stars she has Yojimbo to deal with Kamiizumi's physicals, because she really fears that offense: he OHKOs before Protect, and even under that, if two hits or a crit land, she's toast. And both Know Thine Enemy and Before Swine make her explode.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Sephiroth (FF7): Well, Fly lols at Kamiizumi's physical, but I'm inclined to say counters get through it? Which means Sephiroth can't -ever- safely attack him, Know Thine Enemy OHKOs through Wall hands off and goes first. Seph could troll-wait with spamming Wall, but in that case, I just tiebreak in Kamiizumi's favor because neither wins if they just stall forever. So, here is the money question: does Sephiroth have -any- actual MT damage? And of both types?
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): Non-typed offense like Dark Wave breaks past even Know Thine Enemy for me. And since Fou's -faster- otherwise... mind, Nobutsuna's physicals actually kinda scare Fou ANYWAY, but I think Fou can finish off the job in three Dark Waves. at worst.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Ryu (BoF3): - If I see Dark Wave doing it, Kaiser Breath will do as well. Ryu can also sacrifice a dragon form or two to counters.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Jade (BoF1): MT spoils Know Thine Enemy and damage of both types spoils both Nothing Ventured and Before Swine. So, this is a straight slugfest... which Jade won't ever lose against anyone who doesn't utterly wall lightning.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Belial (WA4): Belial outspeeds counterstances! Spoils them with Distortion! ... frankly, who gives a damn when Nobutsuna just Brave strings his way to victory?
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Well, Nobutsuna opens with Know Thine Enemy (first form is -entirely- ST and has no waiting measure off the skillset) and skips straight to the third form. From here, he has three turns to end her, since she kills him in three turns herself. Five Kamiizumi physicals... lop off 4.28x PC HP. In addition to a Know Thine Enemy, that's 7.7 bars worth of PC HP. No -way- I see PD as that durable.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Loki (VP1): - Loki spoils the counterstances and Nobutsuna's speed sinks him in a straight slugfest.
Nobutsuna Kamiizumi vs Lady (SH3): Nobutsuna doesn't even bother with counterstances: just tank a Lady D-Combo, one-round with his Brave string and -baaaaaaaaaaarely- survive the closing Malice Dirge.

4-7. Performed best out of the three asterisks, but that's partly because being able to burst your offense no strings attached is damned potent, especially when that yields over 2x PC HP in damage, which is some Lady-level shit. The counters are also gross, but this pool was pretty good at getting around them - notice how nobody who rammed into the damned things won. Of course, being entirely physical (evadable physical at that!) costs him a lot.

Okay! So, Qada sports roughly 2x PC HP to me and Braev-level speed (EEEEEEEEEEEEEEW). Dark Breath, once Qada has lost 20% of his HP, deals 4.88x PC HP -alone-. Nothing else is overly impressive.

Qada vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Qada wishes Dark Breath went last on his Brave string, as it'd OHKO Ghaleon. As is, Chaos Shield trolls it hardcore and Qada ain't outslugging Ghal with that damage and HP difference.
Qada vs Myria (BoF3) - EDIT: Nope, Myria has a 5-2. Maybe I should readjust my SDs for BD bosses? Nah.
Qada vs Yu Narukami (Pers4) - At worst, Qada is harmless in Godlike at full HP and Yu's got a mean buff game. Considering how fast Yoshitsune is first turn, it's likely Yu just insta-doubles Qada - Power Charge => Yoshitsune => lol ohko.
Qada vs Yuna (FFX) - Yuna pulls the same strategies used against Alternis for lolsies, because why not.
Qada vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Seph opens with two Shadow Flares, exploiting Qada's windup turn pretty hard. If Qada could use Dark Breath no-strings-attached, he'd make do, but as is...
Qada vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - Ew, that opening Dark Wave on Qada's ass.
Qada vs Ryu (BoF3) - Ryu3 getting turns.
Qada vs Jade (BoF1) - Dude, don't fight Jade if you can't spoil BoltX.
Qada vs Belial (WA4) - Once again, that windup turn shit. It's possible Belial doesn't even -need- that, since she quadraturns Qada off the bat at worst.
Qada vs Profound Darkness (PS4) - Definitely can live through one Qada Brave string. Qada can't live through four PD turns even with Default and may well not be able to see three.
Qada vs Loki (VP1) - Nope.
Qada vs Lady (SH3) - She just OHKOs.

0-12. Well, that was satisfying.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2014, 01:56:23 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2014, 10:04:21 PM »
Alternis (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC):: Chaos SHield?
Alternis vs Myria (BoF3): Too much damage below half HP.
Alternis vs Souji (Pers4): Phys immunity.
Alternis vs Yuna (FFX)
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7): A single Minus Strike ends it? Beyond that can't play around too much.
Alternis vs Fou-Lu (BoF4): ITD is the way to go.
Alternis vs Ryu (BoF3): I'm not entirely sure here. Minus Strikes could just go through all the dragons.
Alternis vs Jade (BoF1)
Alternis vs Belial (WA4): Black Bane.
Alternis vs Profound Darkness (PS4): Probably too much durability.
Alternis vs Loki (VP1): Minus Strike should do it.
Alternis vs Lady (SH3): I think?

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Orphan vs Myria (BoF3)
Orphan vs Souji (Pers4)
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX)
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Orphan vs Ryu (BoF3)
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1)
Orphan vs Belial (WA4)
Orphan vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Orphan vs Loki (VP1)
Orphan vs Lady (SH3)

Reicher (MK2) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Reicher vs Myria (BoF3)
Reicher vs Souji (Pers4)
Reicher vs Yuna (FFX)
Reicher vs Sephiroth (FF7)
Reicher vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Reicher vs Ryu (BoF3)
Reicher vs Jade (BoF1)
Reicher vs Belial (WA4)
Reicher vs Profound Darkness (PS4)
Reicher vs Loki (VP1)
Reicher vs Lady (SH3)

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2014, 05:29:13 AM »
I'm way less harsh on BD boss speeds than Pyro is.  Both Braev & Alternis were *faster* than my team if I didn't equip Red Caps & Hermes Sandals.  Sure, they were slower afterward (thank god), but they aren't slugs (I wouldn't assume you're always maxing speed).  I was probably a tad underleveled, but I don't know how much that'd matter.

Alternis (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC)
Alternis vs Yuna (FFX) - Funny match.  Even forbidding Yuna Aeons outside of Grand Summon doesn't help!
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Don't see Fly as catching Minus Strike, but would Wall?  How does Minus Strike & Angelic Ward interact - 4999 damage?  (The ITDness may not matter vs. FF7 style Wall / Big Guard which just halves damages like Angelic Ward.)  That said, even if Wall does the trick, my lower Sephy damage respect may sink him anyway.
Alternis vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Alternis vs Jade (BoF1) Pretty similar match but Jade probably goes first so seems a good tiebreak.
Alternis vs Belial (WA4)
Alternis vs Loki (VP1) - No hype for Loki killing on a double.
Alternis vs Lady (SH3) - "Chipping" + Stock-fueled smashing.

The good news for Orphan is that I don't use the full buffs & debuffs average DHE suggested (you'll likely be missing SOMETHING of that setup), but sure I'll hold some buffs against him, so it's probably around 9-10 PCHP to me (including damage halving).  The bad news is no Dies Irae spam (every other move at most for me), which actually makes limit Orphan's offense worse in some circumstances since it's the 2nd Dies Irae that really hurts.  (The good news is that this move restriction applies to some of his High Godlike opponents too...)

Also, for form switching, I'd assume Orphan freely switches to Consummate Darkness at 70% HP (or if some long stall occurs).  If you did that much damage in FF13 you surely got a stagger in there somewhere which would trigger the form shift.

Orphan (FF13) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Chaos Shield mocks Orphan's high HP phase and Ghaleon just plain outslugs limit Orphan.
Orphan vs Yuna (FFX) - When in doubt assume the Aeon conga line takes it even without Magus Sisters..
Orphan vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Too much durability.
Orphan vs Fou-Lu (BoF4) - non-elemental magic damage.
Orphan vs Jade (BoF1) - Even with BoltX only every other turn, Jade has notably more damage here alas and not THAT much worse durability.
Orphan vs Belial (WA4) - MT.
Orphan vs Loki (VP1) - Tankiness, magic damage.
Orphan vs Lady (SH3) - Lady can't surge through Orphan's limit phase, it is too tanky.

DHE: Interesting comment on how P+M attacks work in FF13.  If true, I suspect it doesn't actually make TOO much difference since now rather than hitting an average of both defenses, it hits the weaker defense which suits FF13 just fine reasonably often.


Braev (Bravely Default) vs Ghaleon (Lunar:SSSC) - Good match, but sure I'll buy Chaos Shield messing with Braev a lot here.
Braev vs Yuna (FFX) - Yeah yeah Yuna has a strong argument for chipping past the limit here anyway with Anima or an OD per DHE but meh, Braev is the rare type of fighter who has an argument to win (multi-acting ITE!) and I'm not a fan of allowing Anima, so I'll throw him a bone.
Braev vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Radiant Blast spam.  (for all that Radiant Blast can be affected by Angelic Ward too...  meh, not thinking too hard about this, breaking Default deserves more credit than Minus Strike.)
Braev vs Fou-Lu (BoF4)
Braev vs Jade (BoF1) - Well Hard Mode Braev would out-durable Jade, but NM probably kills him here.
Braev vs Belial (WA4)
Braev vs Loki (VP1) - Yeah yeah Loki PDef hype, I'm inclined to respect it somewhat less and Braev can turtle into smash.  (also GIANT SLAYER HYPE VS. HUGE VP NUMBERS?!!1!?)
Braev vs Lady (SH3) - This match is funny.

Also, is there any evidence that Swordmaster / Kamizumi's counterstance is affected by MTable skills?  I think BD will force you to ST even if that were true anyway....

Alternis: 4-4
Orphan: 5-3
Braev: 5-3

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2014, 07:44:49 AM »
FWIW I take BD bosses against a huge SD for speed, so they aren't as slow to me as they are to Snow, either. (I just used the endgame figure of 16.8 for the purpose of this thread.)

Quote
Alternis vs Sephiroth (FF7) - Don't see Fly as catching Minus Strike, but would Wall?  How does Minus Strike & Angelic Ward interact - 4999 damage?  (The ITDness may not matter vs. FF7 style Wall / Big Guard which just halves damages like Angelic Ward.)  That said, even if Wall does the trick, my lower Sephy damage respect may sink him anyway.

Angelic Ward causes it to still do 9999 if memory serves. It kicks in, but since Minus Strike's "real" damage is 50k+, halving it doesn't accomplish much, and the damage cap is applied as the last step in the algorithm. I'm only about 90% sure of this though so someone may want to confirm my memory.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2014, 04:02:19 PM »
That actually does sound right. That also applies for attacks that overflow the damage cap (I've had Conjurer hit me with Amped Attack post-Promethean Fire and then, Angelic Ward'd. It hit me for like 7k damage and my healer died anyway).
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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2014, 12:17:53 AM »
I think Fixed damage like Minus Strike and Takeover ignores Default and Angelic Ward?

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2014, 12:25:12 AM »
Pretty sure that's not the case. Angelic Ward absolutely kicks in, and I'm pretty sure it does indeed half the damage of Takeover.

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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2014, 12:31:08 AM »
Minus Strike and Takeover ignore Default, but not Angelic Aid. It... just... doesn't matter in Minus Strike's case.
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2014, 02:19:30 AM »
I can 100% confirm Angelic Ward will halve Takeover's damage, yes.

However - for all that I'm not a fan of nominating him ever - the question above about counterstances stands.  Do MT-able effects (e.g. Firaga) actually get around Know Thine Enemy and the like?  Jo'ou seems to think they do, but I thought they didn't in-game...  or rather that it was moot in that MT-enemies is forced to be ST-enemies (which is good for your damage!).  I guess Dark Nebula would provide an example of true forced MT if that matters for anyone?

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2014, 02:51:04 AM »
It does get around Know Thine Enemy, but not Nothing Ventured and Before Swine (which nail MT attacks just fine). It's Know Thine Enemy's specific weakness and it's even pointed out in its description. However, in the case of ST attacks that can be made MT, since they're forced to ST when there's only one enemy around, they can't really take advantage of that. It's forced MT or bust to circumvent KTE.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2014, 02:53:40 AM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #18 on: May 26, 2014, 11:45:54 AM »
I wonder if even gorced MT gets around Know thine enemy when there is only one target? someone should test. Should have been me but I don't have the game.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds: High Godlike. 100% Nergal free. Tide is :(.
« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2014, 01:20:26 PM »
I'm not sure I have a save against solo Nobutsuna handy, otherwise I could test.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....