Author Topic: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike  (Read 1299 times)

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« on: November 13, 2014, 05:53:41 AM »
Results from last week:
Agnés (36-15), 71%
Krile (42-19), 69%
Celes (42-30), 58%
Faris (22-41), 35%

Usual disclaimer that Agnes was voted less, so a harder read, but interesting.  Seems that Krile & Agnés are at least borderline, although Celes respect has been on the wane a bit it seems.  Also, as a slight footnote, I adjusted the damage average in the BD PCs topic up a tad from where it was last time, as Pyro helped find a more consistent build for Ringabel that makes him even scarier.

The competition is a bit tougher this time, with more mid-Godlikes and fewer High Heavies thrown in.  Our contestants this week:

Edea (Bravely Default) - PC Ghaleon?  Slow, but crazy tanky with draining + instant death.
Bartz (Final Fantasy 5) - Travelling adventurer who Thiefily learns Blue Magic from monsters to quickly status out his foes, sure.  But did you expect the dreaded White Magic buff & stall strategy?
Nailah (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) - Elfboy fanservice control that actually kills things reasonably fast, unlike the above two low-damage stallers.  Keep clear of flames (and…  stone immunity?!). 


Edea vs. Isolde (MK)
Edea vs. Catoblepas (DDS)
Edea vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Edea vs. Orlandu (FFT)
Edea vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Edea vs. Garuda (FF3)
Edea vs. Ted (S4)
Edea vs. Avalon (LoL2)
Edea vs. Hrist (VP2)
Edea vs. Lulu (FFX)
Edea vs. Athos (FE7)
Edea vs. Groudon (Pokemon)
Edea vs. Vanille (FF13)


Bartz vs. Isolde (MK)
Bartz vs. Catoblepas (DDS)
Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT)
Bartz vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Bartz vs. Garuda (FF3)
Bartz vs. Ted (S4)
Bartz vs. Avalon (LoL2)
Bartz vs. Hrist (VP2)
Bartz vs. Lulu (FFX)
Bartz vs. Athos (FE7)
Bartz vs. Groudon (Pokemon)
Bartz vs. Vanille (FF13)


Nailah vs. Isolde (MK)
Nailah vs. Catoblepas (DDS)
Nailah vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Nailah vs. Orlandu (FFT)
Nailah vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Nailah vs. Garuda (FF3)
Nailah vs. Ted (S4)
Nailah vs. Avalon (LoL2)
Nailah vs. Hrist (VP2)
Nailah vs. Lulu (FFX)
Nailah vs. Athos (FE7)
Nailah vs. Groudon (Pokemon)
Nailah vs. Vanille (FF13)

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2014, 05:59:03 AM »
Elfboy fanservice control again? You sure know how to keep me voting.

(sometime this weekend at least)

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2014, 07:51:06 AM »
Weird quirky reminder about Edea: Thanks to Magic Armor passive (if she sets it), she can get 10 turns of elemental halving of any of Light/Dark/Fire/Water/Lightning, and passives can get her Light/Earth.  It doesn't matter if she immediately overwrites the sword magic with Drain, the protection stays (although using a turn can still hurt).

Edea vs. Catoblepas (DDS) - No DDS, but Abate Earth + physical nulling (or very-near-nulling if Edea grabs Default Guard as well) mock the high HP form.  Low HP, which he'll see due to Edea's bad damage...  Edea will alternate Default & a draining Super Charge, which for me is 120% damage -> 30% damage (thanks to Default Guard), or 150% damage together.  [(80*5)  / 300 ] /2 = .67 PCHP, and .67*(1.2+.3) =  1 PCHP damage.  Yeah that isn't breaking Knight's 1.43 MDur.  Edea will get doubled but eh, use Default Guard when that's coming, she still survives.  Except wait...  no Petrify blocker?  Huh.  Well never mind, she's screwed.
Edea vs. Xenobia (Lunar) - Now that I noticed there's no Petrify blocker, that makes this fight pretty simple.
Edea vs. Orlandu (FFT) - Blocks Instant Death, breaks Edea's stuff.
Edea vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2) - The good news: Abate Light.  The bad news: Curse.  Also XS2 Slow on Edea is pretty darn funny.
Edea vs. Garuda (FF3) - A win for me, possibly a loss for Edea if you're harsher with Default / doubles.  Default turn 1, Lightning + Drain + Super Charge turn 2, going to -3 BP.  Garuda's physicals just bounce off, and I think Edea should survive both DG'd Lightning + Lightning on turns 1-2 as well as 3 turns of halved Lightning before she can start draining again.  Garuda sneaking in a double might screw that up, though.  Of course, that's based on Sentinel...  Edea switching to Anti-Mage probably is a safer win, since Anti-Magic gives Edea something like triple average MDef, and taking *some* damage from the physicals is not so bad.  Anti-Mage is faster, too.
Edea vs. Ted (S4) - This is a guessing game with Default.  If Ted uses Judgment on a turn Edea doesn't Default before she can set up Dark Halving she dies horribly.  Although...  can Ted just bust through?  Assume Edea spams Default, Ted uses 2x Judgement -> Black Shadow...  with all this damage apparently being ITD so Anti-Mage's excellent MDef & Anti-Magic are useless...  yeah never mind.
Edea vs. Hrist (VP2) - Hmm, is Nibelung Valesti typeless or physical?  Her HP is decent enough that I doubt Edea can 3x Super Charge blitz past the limit, but if it's physical damage it doesn't really matter, for all that I wouldn't see it tinking.  (Just...  not doing enough damage to stop the draining.)  EDIT: Sounds like Jo'ou thinks it's physical, so no dice.
Edea vs. Lulu (FFX) - 100% Interp call on whether FFX evasion is comparable to BD evasion or BD Utsusemi.  Since Ranger is the class of super-accuracy, and Targeting avoids *default* at least (if not Utsusemi), I think I'd be inclined to let Edea have this one.  Lulu can equip 50% Death Resistance apparently, but Edea will have 3 shots with Deadly Sniper, so I doubt it's enough.
Edea vs. Athos (FE7) - Luna being ITD really ruins Anti-Mage's day here.  Even if Edea could somehow hold on, Luna even has a crit rate, and the occasional Nosferatu double gives Athos plenty of time to find the crit.  Deadly Sniper strategies get horrifically countered to death while backed by Athos's excellent resistance.  EDIT: Or alternatively Athos's Res can be useless vs. physical status, and even if he counters 1 failed ID attempt, Aureola shouldn't OHKO Sniper.
Edea vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - Sniped OR Abate Earth, take your pick.
Edea vs. Vanille (FF13) - I believe Sword Magic is affected by Silence :(.  Not to mention that Edea has severe problems blitzing past Vanille's infinite healing.  However, she can still #YOLO a Death blitz?  But 3 Cherub's Crowns is like 83% resistance to Instant Death, so yeah, no.  Silence isn't good enough here, either, it'll wear off too soon.  EDIT: Jo'ou claims BD silence doesn't wear off?  Really?  I suppose Edea can just keep reapplying it, though.


Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT) - If you can refresh Image to max strength, sure, I suppose.
Bartz vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2) - Don't give XS2 bosses THAT much time.
Bartz vs. Garuda (FF3) - Lightning halving.
Bartz vs. Ted (S4)
Bartz vs. Hrist (VP2)
Bartz vs. Lulu (FFX)
Bartz vs. Athos (FE7) - I definitely don't buy Berserk being useful vs. FE mages (you can see what happens in-game), but Mind Blast will work.
Bartz vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - I'll buy Elf.
Bartz vs. Vanille (FF13)

Nailah vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Nailah vs. Orlandu (FFT)
Nailah vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2) - If Savage triggers at the right time Nailah can beat this out, but eh.
Nailah vs. Garuda (FF3) - Really wishes he didn't have that physical attached.
Nailah vs. Ted (S4)
Nailah vs. Hrist (VP2)
Nailah vs. Lulu (FFX) - Coinflip, but sure.  FFX evasion is weird (at least PC accuracy vs. enemy evasion) so I'll trust Elf here.
Nailah vs. Athos (FE7) - Roast kitty.
Nailah vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - I'll kneejerk against changing skill loadouts, sure.
Nailah vs. Vanille (FF13)


Edea: 6-4
Bartz: 8-2
Nailah: 5-5
« Last Edit: November 20, 2014, 05:19:14 AM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2014, 03:17:41 PM »
Edea Lee vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Pretty trivial. Edea offense is awful and Isolde gets all the time in the world to pile up Grand Gazes into Grand Gazes until she blows up - and that's not even getting into the limit unlocks.
Edea Lee vs. Catoblepas (DDS) - Running the anti-mage Spellsword+Chivalry setup with Abate Earth would be the way to go here, applying Drain Super Charges verrrrrrrrrrry slowly until Catoblepas dies... except Edea can't block Petrify. Whoops.
Edea Lee vs. Xenobia (Lunar) - See above.
Edea Lee vs. Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - He can block both Sleep and Death at the same time, which leads Edea's shot at winning this into a gaping void. He can't break her shields, but Edea's miserable offense means she just can't really go much of anywhere (Swordmaster counters don't do much of anything, being terrible damage in practice).
Edea Lee vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2) - Edea just doesn't have the offense for this. She could aim for Abate Light+Ranger with Spellblade, but she can't do anything about Curse and I doubt she can muster the tools to survive a multiple Boost chain either.
Edea Lee vs. Garuda (FF3) - Jump might represent a nice spoiling method... but Edea can't really afford to spend turns with Drain castings, can she? Default Guard is a nice thought, but I think she risks getting 2HKOed through it. Even if she doesn't, she obviously has to give up the ubertanking setups, Garuda's defense more than halves the healing on Super Charge with drain, Spellblade castings override each other, you -can't- Default in Brave strings... I really don't think this is working out, spending turns at negative BP equals death here.
Edea Lee vs. Ted (S4) - lol ohko
Edea Lee vs. Avalon (LoL2) - Petrify if nothing else.
Edea Lee vs. Hrist Valkyrie (VP2) - Ubertank + Spellblade setup. Petrify isn't fatal and Hrist can only even touch Edea on crits, which certainly won't outpace Drain Super Charges.
Edea Lee vs. Lulu (FFX) - Hawkeye+Spellblade Death spam should work.
Edea Lee vs. Athos (FE7) - I don't think BD Silence wears off. And, that said, mdef shouldn't affect the odds of physical status going through. Go Ranger, Spellsword Death is turn one, Athos doesn't OHKO Edea, bye.
Edea Lee vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - Groudon doesn't have much of an answer to Spellblade Death, no.
Edea Lee vs. Oerba Dia Vanille (FF13) - Vanille needs to resist both Silence and ID here enough to get a remotely useful turn. Not really panning out.

5-8. Ubertanking doesn't really work too well against Godlike packages, does it? The status options are nice, but Edea wishes she had even Agnés' flexibility in juggling offense and defense.

Bartz Klauser vs. Isolde Schelling (MK) - Shell is a nice thought, but, like usual, Bunker Pillar range means the end for PCs.
Bartz Klauser vs. Catoblepas (DDS) - Mighty Guard => stall . Spoiling Earth with Float just trivializes Catoblepas all day long.
Bartz Klauser vs. Xenobia (Lunar) - Similar ballpark to Catoblepas, only Bartz goes for Lightning halving instead. Since Xenobia is so slow, he can forgo Blue Magic and just use Protect => Shell => stall with occasional Osmose castings instead if necessary? Though Xenobia may not have MP to steal.
Bartz Klauser vs. Cidolfas Orlandu (FFT) - Cid kinda puts a lot of pressure on Bartz. Aegis Shield and paralysis immunity should stave off the status threats long enough to net him a win.
Bartz Klauser vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2) - Curse saves Sergius' ass.
Bartz Klauser vs. Garuda (FF3) - Half Lightning, Shell/Protect, dig in, I believe.
Bartz Klauser vs. Ted (S4) - Smash.
Bartz Klauser vs. Avalon (LoL2) - In theory, Bartz could outstall Avalon, since he blocks Stone and doesn't get OHKOed... but I don't have a good enough handle on Avalon speed to say whether this is viable without Haste, since dispel and HP-1 on the final form put a lot of pressure on Bartz. I'm not sure he can stretch his resources that far running off such low damage. For now, I'll go with Avalon.
Bartz Klauser vs. Hrist Valkyrie (VP2) - Stone blocking => Protect => hello darkness my old friend.
Bartz Klauser vs. Lulu (FFX) - Berserk.
Bartz Klauser vs. Athos (FE7) - Berserk.
Bartz Klauser vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - Mighty Guard => shenanigans.
Bartz Klauser vs. Oerba Dia Vanille (FF13) - Berserk.

8-5. Bartz' worked a lot better in this field than Edea, given how he just has straight-up variety off good stats instead of quirky, lopsided builds. So it goes.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2014, 11:07:18 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2014, 07:02:11 PM »
Jo'ou: Hmm..  oh yeah, physical status.  I might ignore it if it was just Venin swords, but I suppose Assassin ID counts too, so...  vote changed.

Also, Edea really hates the fact that a third of the field can fling petrify (quite accidental on my part!).  BD blockers are reasonably comprehensive so Edea isn't bad in boss slugfests where the boss has 1 status if she doesn't mind her speed getting even more dire.

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2014, 08:14:26 PM »
Bartz vs. Isolde (MK) - best bullshit
Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar) - sure
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT) - sure
Bartz vs. Ted (S4) - Ow.
Bartz vs. Lulu (FFX) - Berserk
Bartz vs. Athos (FE7) - Yeah no.
Bartz vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - Shenanigans

Nailah vs. Isolde (MK)
Nailah vs. Xenobia (Lunar) - Petrify probably lands sooner rather than later.  She may also have fire which is also bad.
Nailah vs. Orlandu (FFT)
Nailah vs. Ted (S4) - Ah, no.
Nailah vs. Lulu (FFX) - Kneejerk for stupid accuracy of stupid.
Nailah vs. Athos (FE7) - She doesn't one-round.  Even if you hold Forblaze to x2 mt for effectiveness that still 2HKOs her, and I don't think her evade is good enough to actually help.  Alternatively I guess Nosferatu works.
Nailah vs. Groudon (Pokemon) - Faster and Eruption is likely going to hurt.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2014, 06:56:17 PM by Random Consonant »

Pyro

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1792
  • Mwahahaha
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #6 on: November 14, 2014, 01:52:29 AM »
Edea vs. Isolde (MK): Break damage, and I think Break makes attacks ITD unfortunately.
Edea vs. Catoblepas (DDS): Petrify
Edea vs. Xenobia (Lunar): Petrify
Edea vs. Orlandu (FFT): Uh... breaks her Accessory and then goes for ID? She can't do anything in the meantime except POISON, and he'll land Death before she can kill with that.
Edea vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Edea vs. Garuda (FF3): Edea's Super Charge mostly doesn't care about Defense. With that, Anti-Magic, Default Guard, and, say, Slow&Steady, she does mean things.
Edea vs. Ted (S4): Too bad she doesn't have a magical equivalent to Ironclad.
Edea vs. Avalon (LoL2): Stone.
Edea vs. Hrist (VP2): Boss form gets owned.
Edea vs. Lulu (FFX): Hawkeye+Spellblade.
Edea vs. Athos (FE7): Physical Silence.
Edea vs. Groudon (Pokemon)
Edea vs. Vanille (FF13): Status.


Bartz vs. Isolde (MK): Break -> KO
Bartz vs. Catoblepas (DDS)
Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar)
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT): MP Killing.
Bartz vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Bartz vs. Garuda (FF3):
Bartz vs. Ted (S4)
Bartz vs. Avalon (LoL2): Runs him out of MP?
Bartz vs. Hrist (VP2): Big Guard -> Win.
Bartz vs. Lulu (FFX): Paralysis?
Bartz vs. Athos (FE7): Berserk.
Bartz vs. Groudon (Pokemon): Berserk, sure.
Bartz vs. Vanille (FF13): Berserk, sure.

Going by Dhyer's scaling against enemy AS.
Nailah vs. Isolde (MK): Break -> KO?
Nailah vs. Catoblepas (DDS): Petrify.
Nailah vs. Xenobia (Lunar): Think Petrify works before Nailah kills...
Nailah vs. Orlandu (FFT): Just 3HKOs.
Nailah vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2)
Nailah vs. Garuda (FF3)
Nailah vs. Ted (S4)
Nailah vs. Avalon (LoL2): Statue.
Nailah vs. Hrist (VP2): Outslugs boss Hrist?
Nailah vs. Lulu (FFX): Should get a turn and Death or Double Firaga? This is where Dhyer halving the special activation rates makes me kind of curious as to how I should approach it. But Nailah's raw damage shouldn't KO in one round, so the Double-Death thing happens...
Nailah vs. Athos (FE7): Ick. Weakness hitting Forblaze?
Nailah vs. Groudon (Pokemon): I guess Nailah's tankier than I gave her credit for!
Nailah
vs. Vanille (FF13): She flings status first and will likely get a second shot, and.... hmm. I'm not sure how to take Res for it. This is a bit of a toughie. We'll go with Nailah.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 07:57:15 PM by Pyro »

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #7 on: November 15, 2014, 02:23:57 AM »
Edea vs. Isolde (MK): Break = crits = ITD.
Edea vs. Catoblepas (DDS): Petrify.
Edea vs. Xenobia (Lunar): Petrify.
Edea vs. Orlandu (FFT): Destroying her equipment will rid her of that physical durability.
Edea vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2): Hmm, I think Dread and Curse are similar enough to me that I'd see her blocking that, and Slow's -25% speed reduction isn't worth much hype here. Meanwhile Patriarch damage fails forever against Edea's tankiness + Abate Light, so drain away.
Edea vs. Garuda (FF3): Looks like Garuda only three-rounds, so Edea probably has time to set up... but Garuda's high defence spoils her right back? Not sure how much credit I give it for overcoming Def pretty well in its own game (some of Garuda's pdur is surely derived from a comprehensive evade I wouldn't see Supercharge working against). It looks like Supercharge only gives her back a third of her HP in Anti-Mage and that's probably not good enough, especially since I don't remember BD MDef being as good as the stat topic implies (maybe that's HM?).
Edea vs. Ted (S4): OHKOs? If she somehow hangs on with Default Guard hype then surely the second will finish her.
Edea vs. Avalon (LoL2): More stone.
Edea vs. Hrist (VP2): Finally someone physically-reliant.
Edea vs. Lulu (FFX): Edea is fortunate she has Hawkeye.
Edea vs. Athos (FE7): Hawkeye silencestrike.
Edea vs. Groudon (Pokemon): Here come the statusvulnerable.
Edea vs. Vanille (FF13): Both Silence and ID completely wreck Vanille, she can't effectively reduce both that far. And Edea can probably use her one speed build to make Fog not a threat, and block Pain... whatever, go first and YOLO death/silence assault, it should -probably- work.

Bartz vs. Isolde (MK): Yeah Bartz really doesn't dodge limits, and has no real answer to unreflectable magic. He'd need Heavy typing for me to give him any chance against Bunker Pillar spam.
Bartz vs. Catoblepas (DDS): Block petrify, buff self with Protect/Shell, then use Firaga + Curaga on the press turn to get past Catobeplas' (still 2RKOing!) limit phase. I think he has the MP for this anyway.
Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar): See above. Bartz can't use press turns here, but eh, Xenobia's not as damaging and way slower so I think Bartz should manage. Also he does have some MP draining.
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT): Bartz with MP+30% should have enough MP to not be one-shotted by Dark Sword, then Image. (See last week's comments, it stops ITE physicals in FF5.) He can then try to land Mini on Cid so that he has all the time in the world to win. I guess Cid can respond by blocking Mini (I'd let Frog immunity cover it), but no Bracer means Bartz will have a LOT more MP to work with... and he can still Berserk Cid so that future Dark Swords can't happen? Gives Cid a pretty competent physical but it can be reduced to a practical 7HKO before doubleturns (~4-5HKO after) by Protect+shield. Is... that enough? Bartz will probably use his turns to try to land Charm, since Cid hitting himself even twice will be game... and yeah he should be able to land that twice before Cid hacks through Bartz's 3 shots of Curaga + spare MP for image/berserk/protect/confuse.
Bartz vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2): Shell makes Patriarch's full-HP damage reaaal bad, and Bartz can actually hack into him... somewhat reasonably with a Rune Axe? ... okay not really it's still a 21HKO. <_< Of course Bartz has Osmose to turtle indefinitely here (FF5 boss HP is very high, XS2 is ???, so I'd assume Patriarch's is really high too). But... given time Patriarch CAN build up to some pretty nasty combos... as in, OHKO through Shell. And Bartz damage is so horrible that this is probably going to happen. Also, not sure I'd see any FF5 status immunities covering Curse... Zombie perhaps? But hahaha no to blocking Zombie, that means no Hermes Sandals. And that makes things ugly.
Bartz vs. Garuda (FF3): Lightning halving, Protect, Shell. It adds up to an unhappy Garuda.
Bartz vs. Ted (S4): Oh dear.
Bartz vs. Avalon (LoL2): Buffs are largely out (Bartz can maintain one, due to the speed split). Bartz also has to block Charm, which... okay isn't too big a deal, just drops his MDef some? MP could be a potential concern for Bartz here so he wants to run Osmose (can't use a Gold Hairpin), and then White Magic... I dunno. Avalon will just 2HKO him every turn so he's only attacking on doubles and needs to Osmose on some of those... but y'know what no reason that wouldn't work, unless I have a compelling reason to expect Avalon to run out of MP. *checks a FAQ* Avalon has 999, which translates to like 4000 in FF5 terms... ugh, actually, that could run out in this fight. Yikes. Sure, Avalon can take this, probably. Good fight though.
Bartz vs. Hrist (VP2): Yeah no. Block petrify + Protect.
Bartz vs. Lulu (FFX): Mind Blast.
Bartz vs. Athos (FE7): Mind Blast. Or Berserk.
Bartz vs. Groudon (Pokemon): Berserk's a bit dicy here since Groudon is faster and will rip into Bartz turn 1, and Groudon can use a berry to withstand one Mind Blast. But... thanks to needing to equip that berry, Groudon's damage drops slightly such that Mighty Guard is just enough (Protect or Shell alone wouldn't be!) to let Bartz take a hit after that, then heal, then Mind Blast twice for the win, all before he gets doubleturned. Good fight!
Bartz vs. Vanille (FF13): Annnd Mind Blast. Or Berserk. Bartz really likes having two perfect-accuracy status options.

Nailah vs. Isolde (MK): Nailah 3HKOs, so Isolde only gets one shot of Bunker Pillar... but more likely than not it will land, and combined with a Grand Gaze timed card coming right after it the resulting critical will KO.
Nailah vs. Catoblepas (DDS): He only gets one turn... but it'll be a Psycho Rage -> Petrify x5 turn. Nailah should reduce petrify's accuracy to like 25% or so but that's not enough here.
Nailah vs. Xenobia (Lunar): Her petrify is ITE and never fails so far as I can recall.
Nailah vs. Orlandu (FFT): Not sure where this 2HKO nonsense is coming from... but he 3HKOs and 3-2's, sure.
Nailah vs. Patriarch Sergius XVII (XS2): Nailah should 3RKO here and thanks to Sergius' shitty accuracy he certainly isn't 3HKOing first, or landing Curse on the one chance he'll have to do so.
Nailah vs. Garuda (FF3): Well Nailah needs four attacks to win this! But... uh... she probably gets them. Garuda 2RKOs her only if all his hits land, and they won't, so it's a 3RKO at best, and that's triggering counters. Even if you let him single-act and just use Lightning once then he'll only 3RKO before evasion... yeah no.
Nailah vs. Ted (S4): Well Ted has a 44% chance of losing this.
Nailah vs. Avalon (LoL2): Dat petrify.
Nailah vs. Hrist (VP2): Hahaha no.
Nailah vs. Lulu (FFX): Close. Nailah has a ~44% chance to land both her hits (or she might do one hit + one Savage, which gets the odds close to 50%). If she fails to do so, then Lulu gets a turn and has to doublecast Death which... has about an 80% chance to kill? (Double Firaga is a far worse bet since she'd need both hits to land to have any argument to one-round.) The overall odds favour Nailah even before the "damage-dealing strategies need 50% chance to win, status-slingers need 67%" policy I have.
Nailah vs. Athos (FE7): Nailah needs to land three hits... Athos barely needs two. Nailah's attacks pretty much always land, while Athos has a... ~75% chance? Sure that's good enough.
Nailah vs. Groudon (Pokemon): Um? Even if you take Eruption at double damage (which is an exaggeration of how large Nailah's fire weakness is if anything, it will never boost damage to her by more than 0.4 PCHP in-game), that still doesn't OHKO Nailah. She two-rounds and he isn't landing 2 out of 2 shots back.
Nailah vs. Vanille (FF13): Vanille's status is turn 2 (at best. If you apply Nailah's Res to each spell individually, it's closer to turn never), Nailah one-rounds her.

Bartz 9-4
Edea 6-7
Nailah 6-7
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:11:53 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Pyro

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1792
  • Mwahahaha
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #8 on: November 15, 2014, 03:28:45 AM »
Fun fact for Cid: Edea can probably remain physical-immune (basically) with Def-buffs like Shield Strike even after Orlandu breaks everything but the Shield!

But he can just break her accessory and ID her with the 25% ID, so he wins that way. Otherwise Edea might win with Poison...

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #9 on: November 15, 2014, 05:10:55 AM »
I have lower respect for high subtraction defence (usual disclaimer that nulling average damage is not the same as nulling all damage in such a system!) so I doubt that's the case for me, especially with Orlandu doubling her constantly... but yeah it doesn't matter either way.

Added in votes for Bartz. Couple good fights in there. EDIT: Also Nailah.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2014, 08:10:04 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #10 on: November 20, 2014, 05:24:29 AM »
Edited in my own votes + last call of sorts.

Also, Elecman, am I forgetting something?  Why would Dread & Curse be similar?  I consider myself pretty generous about extending status definitions to other games, but Boost Lock is definitely what I'd consider a Dread XS2 equivalent...  not sure I'd see anything in BD as being really close to Curse.

As for BD Magic Defense, well, it's bad in-game since it doesn't apply all that often, and Edea is thrilled if you take that view as she'd rather hype her PDef anyway.  Also, for whatever it's worth, the only enemy I can particularly recall being able to break Knight's defense unbuffed on *Hard* is Kamiizumi's basic physical, *barely*, and that's about it.  (She can die to physicals anyway in that fight, since it also features Praline using Love Power & Barbarossa using Shell Split & Amped Strike, but that's basically the only way.)  Anyway, I can check the PC side vs. enemy magic if you want, but I suspect it's similar to the tests I did vs. Holly in the stat topic for enemy MDef, where enemy MDef proved pretty potent if you foolishly didn't set Pierce M. Def.  So the listed MDurability might be *underrating* the durability, if anything, at least vs. Normal mode enemies.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #11 on: November 20, 2014, 06:01:19 AM »
Quote
Also, Elecman, am I forgetting something?  Why would Dread & Curse be similar?  I consider myself pretty generous about extending status definitions to other games, but Boost Lock is definitely what I'd consider a Dread XS2 equivalent...  not sure I'd see anything in BD as being really close to Curse.

Flavour, mostly. I agree that it's a bit of a stretch, but Curse is a complete wasted turn in-game so I'm generally pretty cool with kneejerking against it rather than giving it lots of credit for Curse being a rare status.

Quote
As for BD Magic Defense, well, it's bad in-game since it doesn't apply all that often,

The last two bosses use it for some of their best stuff, and... I just didn't notice MDef having -that- potent an effect on them. Like my Spiritmaster was 2HKOed through Default by Acedia->Kaboom, same as my Pirate.

Quote
Also, for whatever it's worth, the only enemy I can particularly recall being able to break Knight's defense unbuffed on *Hard* is Kamiizumi's basic physical, *barely*, and that's about it. 

Well, unbuffed doesn't give the full spectrum of the effects of defence, is obviously part of that. If Knight PDef doesn't null the final boss' Celestial Touch'd physical (which it doesn't), then obviously it isn't perfect. (Still very good, though! Unlike the MDef I'm not trying to talk down Bravely Default PDef in general... just it doesn't approach immunity as fast for me as it does for some people.)

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

DragonKnight Zero

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 519
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #12 on: November 21, 2014, 03:42:57 AM »
Sure, why not?

Bartz vs. Xenobia (Lunar): I don't allow Bartz Ribbon but Xenobia only inflicts gradual petrify and is slow so while Bartz will use Esuna a few times, he'll still prevail
Bartz vs. Orlandu (FFT): Going with Elf's call on MP +30% and Image.  Trying to land status through an Aegis Shield is a thing but Berserk has perfect accuracy and ignores magic evade.  Protect and evasion keeps Cid's physicals manageable.  Innate Counter tips this in favor of Bartz having enough resources to win; I think he can pull it off without Image at all.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds, flexicharacter FF5/BD edition: Low Godlike
« Reply #13 on: November 21, 2014, 04:32:05 AM »
The problem with Xenobia's slow-petrify is it comes attached to solid magical damage as well. Bartz can use Esuna every turn in response to that and attack on doubles... except that most of the doubles will need to go towards healing (and that's with an opening Shell or Mighty Guard to reduce the damage to 3-4HKO range). And of course MP will then be an issue so he'll need to use some turns on Osmose as well. It's certainly possible that Bartz could pull this out - higher respect for Vampire's accuracy than I have, seeing the speed difference as really massive, etc. - but it very much feels like an uphill fight and not one I would kneejerk him winning myself.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.