Proving Grounds Light: Wind, Earth, & Music

[SnowFire]

Just some topics to pass the time in-between super's Shift variant & CK's Bluelike tournament for those crazy enough to enjoy voting a lot, with a focus on newish stat topic entries.

Nina3 - Fresh off annihilating aiel's Punies, Nina plans on killing the way up to Godlike.  Maybe.
Sherri - Tactics Ogre mage, ugh.  There's a reason they're sketchy even in side-tournies due to translating really strangely.
Gen - Another weird one, and not in the party for very long.  Her DL build is quite a bit different than a "paralyze everyone and switch" build...  "interesting" but with some yucky stats.


Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3)
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7)
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3)
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Nina vs. Locke (FF6)
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8)
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5)
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8)
Nina vs. Jun (VP)
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2)
Nina vs. Kain (FF4)
Nina vs. Wood (RS3)
Nina vs. Avril (WA5)


Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3)
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7)
Sherri vs. Peco (BoF3)
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6)
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8)
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5)
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8)
Sherri vs. Jun (VP)
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2)
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4)
Sherri vs. Wood (RS3)
Sherri vs. Avril (WA5)


Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3)
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)
Gen vs. Jun (VP)
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
Gen vs. Wood (RS3)
Gen vs. Avril (WA5)

[SnowFire]

So...  to chat about Sherri's status game, it works differently by your MP feelings.  If you allow Magic Herbs, it's the best: open magic herb, Sleep, magic herb, Charm, repeat constantly until she hits max MP, then switch to Shackle -> damage -> re-apply Shackle as needed.  She can also drain all your MP & TP if she wants (relevant if you apply a tight budget to Magic Herbs I guess).  If you're me and grant a turn of MP/TP, then she needs to wait turn 1, then use Drain MP turn 2 (against opponents with MP at least), then start a Sleep / MP drain / Charm / MP drain lock in the same way on turn 3 while slowly building up MP and hoping that either the opponent has copious reserves of MP, or is ruined without MP.  If you don't allow items nor a starting turn, then the same game but Drain MP is turn 3 and the status is turn 4 and this is a really bad strategy. 
(She can blow her status early of course, but then she'll be at very low MP, and with Drain MP's 30 MP cost, it's a bad idea in the itemless interps.)

Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3) - Apparently Cecile can switch in the M Resist skill so she doesn't get 2HKOed, and she certainly 2HKOs back.  Possible Earth Averse might tip this but eh.
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7) - Um.  Well Sherri can build up MP vs. form 1!  She...  needs Vulcan Lance III to OHKO form 2, though, and plain can't OHKO form 3.  2 Vulcan Lance Is will do it, though that means eating Hojo3's Combo until she gets lucky with Sleep missing.  While Hojo damage is miserable, Sherri durability isn't real great (even if all the durabilities in the TO topic probably should creep upward some), and she's wasting a lot of time vs. form 1 to build / drain MP, which adds up even vs. form 1's awful damage.
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF) Magic Block is turn 4 or so?  So yeah, 3 Vulcan Lances do their work.  Even safer if you take the Magic Herb interp, since only 2 shots for Magic Block to kick in.
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6)
Locke 3HKOs...  but Sherri is substantially faster with Wait -> Drain Mind -> {Sleep or Charm} -> drain+status loop (assuming you don't see Locke attacking himself from TO charm).  I guess there might be FF6 blockers hype but Locke takes a nasty hit to do that.  And yes I know that arguably FF6 chars have 0 MP if you never equip them with Espers, but lolno to that.
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8)
Rennac...  doesn't double.  And that's that, Sherri 3HKOs first from range.
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5)
S5's Yellow Scarf was not super-amazing, but it should be enough here.  Icy Poison -> Silent Lake -> outdamage in the resulting slapfight is pretty good too
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8)
I let FF8 characters have blockers, so Irvine blocks Sleep, and Vulcan Lance I will just set up a limit unless Earth Averse gets in, and waiting too long for Vulcan Lance I -> VL2 just gets Sherri gunned down.
Sherri vs. Jun (VP)
Jun should be 3HKOed first.
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2)
Power Seal on turn 2 is decisive...  but giving Sherri starting MP means she just 2HKOs first.  EDIT: And Sherri blocks Silence anyway, so Maribel is stuck going straight for turn 3 ID anyway.
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4)
No MP to drain...  really depends on Kain damage hype I guess, and possibly MDef hype, since the status loop is basically out.  Earth Averse should still get Kain 3HKO'd here...  while he's even targetable.  Meanwhile it might only take 2 jumps = 4 turns to kill Sherri here, so even though SHerri has MP, she plain doesn't have 3 turns to blast Kain.  Maybe.

Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Paralyze build gets immuned, Slow Strike build hits the right defense but just gets mowed down anyway, I don't think she's 3:2ing.
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen runs out of MP in any build.  Too much to hack through.
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Elementalist 2HKOs while avoiding Battle Cry or being 2HKOed back.  I think that's too much.
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)
Front Row Valiant Knife is suicide, Locke only 3HKOs with Wing Edge, so that's hitting Battle Cry while getting Slow Strike'd.  Nope.
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)
Paralyze build should take this, barring unlucky Killing Edge timing?  Poke with Backwards Slam All, Paralyze Rennac once into Battle Cry range then murder him horribly.
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)
50% resistance makes Gen's strategy too chancy here, a single missed Paralyze is death.  Although I guess there's disrespecting S5 Yellow Scarf + Paralyze respect, as a Battle Cry'd beatdown should kill a paralyzed Bern before she can heal, so it is close.
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)
Two limit fighters face off!  Gen's the one who's effectively faster and can sneak in doubles though, so kneejerk.
Gen vs. Jun (VP)
3HKOs first with the Slow build, but probably gets slaughtered with the Paralysis build.  I'll be nice for the moment and call it a win.
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Marivel is at death's door when Silence connects, Gen's most basic attack can surely finish this afterward.  ID blitz is better but still not good enough.
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
I think Kain's pulsed damage evades Battle Cry?  Open to arguments, this match is weird.

Sherri: 5-5
Gen: 5-4-1

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Nina Wyndia (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3) - 2HKOs and Nina cannot for the life of her 2HKO back.
Nina Wyndia vs. Hojo (FF7) - OKAY. Nina manages to OHKO form 1 of the 0.26x PC HP, that's a nice start... oh dear god form 2 2HKOs her and she only 2HKOs back, this is completely awful. Nina can't possibly outslug phase 3 this way.
Nina Wyndia vs. Peco (BoF3) - Nina 5HKOs Peco and he 4HKOs (......) back. Regen does complicate matters, though, and so does the healing, which slows her down. The speed split is sorta nasty: Nina has a 4-3, and further down the line, a 6-4... if Regen and healing weren't a factor, Nina would outslug, but Regen and healing be factors here. Soooo... yeah, guess Peco scrapes it by, the turnsplit needed to be just a little bit wider.
Nina Wyndia vs. Elementalist (WAXF) - Good lord, Nina3 against people who 2HKO her.
Nina Wyndia vs. Locke Cole (FF6) - Both 3HKO each other, lord knows who the fuck is faster... but Nina quickly rams Locke into 2HKOing her (in fact, full HP Valiant Knife + Valiant Knife after a Mjollnir = 2HKO). And she barely 3HKOs him as it stands, I don't think she can chip-3HKO him safely at all even if she goes first. If she goes last, god have mercy on her soul. This is sad.
Nina Wyndia vs. Rennac (FE8) - Nina 4HKOs and goes first, Rennac... 3HKOs. Yeah, not really panning out this.
Nina Wyndia vs. Bernadette Egan (S5) - Nina ramming against Bernadette's mdur off that much healing is all kinds of ugly.
Nina Wyndia vs. Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - 4HKO vs. 3HKO, and Nina even risks walking her way into a limit, which does bad things even if she lands a Blunt or the like.
Nina Wyndia vs. Jun (VP) - Sigh.
Nina Wyndia vs. Marivel Armitage (WA2) - Urgh, Nina's status spoiling makes Marivel completely useless. She 3HKOs Marivel to boot.
Nina Wyndia vs. Kain Highwind (FF4) - EDIT: Wind res doesn't pan out? Back to the balloon farm.
Nina Wyndia vs. Wood (RS3) - No way for Wood to get the two turns he needs here. Nina instadoubles his ass and he can't muster any sort of equip that lets him mitigate that Thunder weakness from his suit. Kind of spoiled, really.

2-10. The wins here are so weird. Regardless, pretty much awful with some -bizarre- spoiling powers. Go her.

Sherri Phoraena (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3) - Well, I allow mages to use Magic Herbs in the DL these days (if nothing else, degrees of uniqueness in Field Alchemy and whatnot). Soooo... Sherri goes first, Cecille doesn't OHKO. By turn 2, Sherri has 57 MP, which lets her cast Shackle. Since she also has, at worst, enough MP to cast Vulcan Lance/Word of Pain I => VL/WoP II on the following two turns, yeah, I think this works out.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Hojo (FF7) - Holy mother, Sherri lets Hojo get a turn ohnoes... except it's actually kind of a pain in the ass, since it allows him to drop a Capsule Pod and their damage -does- add up. Of course, Cragfall I OHKOs both Hojo 1 and any capsule monster it drops, so Sherri does so... now, against Helletic Hojo, Sherri can drop a Vulcan Lance II and OHKO. Now, against form 3... she comes in at 33 MP if she aims for the OHKO. That... leaves her vulnerable to a possible sleep-lock, since her durability is bad enough to kill her in that case, and Hojo can pile up more status if that's the case. BUT: if she casts Drain Mind against Helletic Hojo instead? She -can- survive a turn from him, after all (confuse is turn two, she immunes silence). In that case, she can KO Helletic with Vulcan Lance 2 and then finish it off with Vulcan Lance/Word of Pain III, which OHKO Lifeform Hojo. Good lord.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Peco (BoF3) - Peco's status resistance proves quite problematic for Sherri here, so she wants to amass some MP to blitz him down. Magic Herb, 57 MP => eat a full HP Fire/Ice Breath from Peco that isn't great damage anyway, Word of Pain I x2 => Vulcan Lance III, I suppose? This does give Peco turns to attempt sleep, but I can't see how it'll turn the tides in his favor, given how bad his damage is.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Elementalist (WAXF) - Elementalist 3HKOs, but gets a free turn... Sherri can try to capitalize on Shackle => Drain Heart, but Magic Blocker can prove pretty pesky here, and both DH and Shackle itself are quite draining (no pun intended) on her resources. Drain Mind is an option, but also rams into Magic Blocker. OF COURSE, Sherri just 2HKOs with Word of Pain I x2 post-averse, which may as well be the preferred course of action here post-Shackle. Yeah. If you -do- see Elementalist 2HKOing Sherri, though, that becomes too tall a mountain to climb.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Locke Cole (FF6) - Locke doesn't like having damage this bad. Shackle => Word of Pain I => Word of Pain II => victory.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Rennac (FE8) - Figuring out which AS figure I take for FE8 is a headache. If Rennac doubles, he has a shot... if not, however, so much failure. His GODLIKE RES ends up just being somewhat above average, though, so I don't think it really tips much of anything against Sherri status. Letting her get two turns is pretty dangerous.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Bernadette Egan (S5) - Sherri immunes Silence, so Silent Lake is out. But... Bern's obscene mdef gives Sherri all kinds of headaches and she has problems closing the deal even after connecting the status. My kneejerk is Bern lands icy poizn before getting statused out and likely manages an extra turn or two to heal/whatever and slow Sherri down -even further-. I mean, Sherri has a shot, but feels like she struggles pretty bad to make waves.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Irvine Kinneas (FF8) - Irvine borderline 4HKOs Sherri. This just ain't working.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Jun (VP) - In theory, this is more interesting than Irvine vs. Sherri, since Jun blocks Paralysis. Problem is Sherri probably still KOs with Vulcan Lance I => earth-averse Vulcan Lance III (heck, possibly even Vulcan Lance II). Sherri gets a pretty nasty game going if you let her live two turns or more.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Marivel Armitage (WA2) - Get a second turn => Shackle => Shenanigans.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Kain Highwind (FF4) - Oh my good lord.
Sherri Phoraena vs. Wood (RS3) - Well, Wood 2HKOs very easily and Blunt Strike could be a problem, but Sherri borderline instadoubles Wood to begin with. That often leads to ugly things against her.

11-1. -Really- likes that starting Magic Herb. This said, the status game is fundamentally pretty neat. Disable enemy, amass MP, unleash all sorts of horrors. Just really wants to get to that second turn to have a good shot.

Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3)
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)
Gen vs. Jun (VP)
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
Gen vs. Wood (RS3)
Gen vs. Avril (WA5)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Kain's best lance is holy-, not wind-elemental (even his other spears being wind is debatable, since IIRC that element is only used by lances and arrows, it's really more of a "flying-killer" element, but this does not matter here). If I'm reading Dhyer's notes right BoF3 PCs can't resist holy.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I thought it was dual-elemental! But yeah, if that doesn't fly, I'm switching my vote.

[superaielman]

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3)- See Kain.
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7)- Hojo when he doesn't status gets zero respect from me.
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3)
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Nina vs. Locke (FF6)
Nina vs.Rennac (FE8)
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5)
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8)- Kneejerk.
Nina vs.Jun (VP)
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2)- Uh.
Nina vs. Kain (FF4)- I have very little respect for BoF3 stat downs and that is Nina's only hope.


Nina is so fucking bad when she's not beating up on Liz and Onix level scrubs.

[Dhyerwolf]

As a reminder, if you start by doing 30% physical damage and are slower than Nina, you will likely 6HKO approx. (Blunt hits turn 2, cuts endgame enemy damage about 80% to Nina. She's 55% PDur, so you need 30+6+6+6+6+6=60). This means Blunt will look amazing here, but generally doesn't function well against people who don't fail.

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3)- Question: Why Cecile? Everyone else seems to generally be a Light, or L/M area at best, but Cecile is a clear Middle. Even worse, she's a clear Middle with arguable status immunity in a field where all three characters are somewhat dependent on status. Anyways, even if Cecile can be hit with Blunt, Nina doesn't do well against good physical damage.
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7)- form 1 not an issue, form 2 really not an issue. Form 3 is probably dependent on rows
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3)- Peco has 2.3x more of the relevant durability (not factoring in the regen), Nina has 2.275 the relevant speed. Peco does have the regen and healing, but Nina...is 153% faster to me, so she's 3-2ing all the damn time (in game in a duel scenario, she would get EXAs every turn).
So
Nina- Smack (Peco takes 30%. Wait I agree that Peco 4HKOs Nina...using the 478 kill Point, but Nina doesn't 5HKO Peco).
Peco- Heal (Peco is at 92%)
Nina- Smack (Peco is at 62%)
Nina- Smack (Peco is at 32%)
Yeah, this seems clearly in her court.

Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Nina vs. Locke (FF6)- Having that ITD source of damage makes this clear
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8)- Rennac...6HKOs after the second Blunt hits (Rennac resists, but he doesn't resist enough to make it turn 3).
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5)
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8)- Easy win. He...struggles horribly to kill without a limit. Blunt, Blunt, Slow, Slow. At this point, she 3HKOs, and uses two of them on a double. Even seeing her 4HKO doesn't really help.
Nina vs. Jun (VP)- Well, depends if I see Jun as able to stop Blunt. Since he blocks status, and it is not explicitly a status, my gut reaction is yes.
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2)- Mocking status and ID doesn't tend to end well for Marivel
Nina vs. Kain (FF4)
Nina vs. Avril (WA5)- Being competent enough to have average physical damage deals with Nina since it means that Avril just 3HKOs through Blunt.

Sherri starts with 25 MP to me. I don't allow Magic Herbs. I...don't know that I give a lot of respect to MP drain (it's nice to have, but the flip side of being in a game where MP starts is 0 is that enemies are not going to have a lot).
Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3)
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7)
Sherri vs. Peco (BoF3)- Halving status works well here. Resisting draining on top of it really helps.
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF)- This is tricky. For me, Elementalist has to have better damage since I don't allow Ultimate weapons, meaning that Fighters lose both accuracy and damage, while mages only lose damage. In fact, I'm not sure whether the topic factors in accuracy for that part. My suspcision is that I would see Sherri getting 2HKOed. Now...TO topic has two different status numbers. Using NEB's, factoring in Magic Block, Sherri does not have a turn 1 status. I'm not sure who is faster. Gutting Elementalist wins this though.
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6)- You know what is cool about Sherri? TO Stone rocks fucking face in game, but gets this hideous DL translation. Sherri...can effectively use it though. Stone, gather lots of MP, status.
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8)- Gut
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5)
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8)
Sherri vs. Jun (VP)- Jun blocks Stone. Charm/Sleep work for timekillers. I don't see VP energy resetting (not going to let most of them auto-lose to near anyone with a Sleep status). That said, VP energy would be drained in the TP drain to me, so I think Sherri should manage this.
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2)- So...what is Sherri's speed. Marivel has Status Lock with should take this. I think Sherrii is slow, so Marivel?
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4)- Okay, if Sherri loses to Kain there must be something I'm missing (Kain (AT BEST)...has about 30.6% damage...on Jump. That's 3 Jumps to kill Sherri. That's a lot of time for Sherri to regen TP. Honestly, I don't think Kain can even think of overcoming Drain Heart very effectively since he really just does 15% damage at turn).
Sherri vs. Avril (WA5)- Gut reaction of Avril is faster, 2HKOs, and Sherri's status doesn't tend to be so definitive

With the default, Gen's strategy is generally open
Jump Forward Jig (makes every turn like turn 1 speed)->Slow Strike->Delay Move. This is pretty fast the whole time

or the Paralysis strategy, which is nasty is someone can not avoid 30% of Gen's HP
Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3)- Yeah, gutting that status immunity is needed to stop Gen's stuff to me (Hitting literally everything final bosses including 100% of the time in game definitely seems like a higher standard than resist). That said, on magic path, Gen probably has MP woes. On physical path, Gen doesn't like counters. Peco does need 6 physical attacks (Which takes him 4 turns when countering, 4 turns+2 of those would be counters). Of course, Peco is slooooow. After the knockback effect, he's like 60% speed. Gen naturally 7HKOs with physicals (but worse with regen. Granted, Peco needs to get 5 turns to push her back to 9HKO). So..

Gen- Physical
Peco- Attack
Gen- Physical, Eats a Counter
Gen- Physical
Peco- Attack
Gen- Physical, Eats a Counter. Speed has now gone to 219% on the physical attack)
Gen- Paralyze. At this point, Gen can generally string together at least 5 attacks. Peco has already taken 4, and hasn't gotten the number of turns needed to push her to 9.
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)- Same as my notes for Rennac below. Gen 4HKOs, which means that she can squeeze out the damage as below.
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)- Rennac 3HKOs. Gen 4HKOs on the physical patch...which means Paralysis->Physical->Rennac Attacks->Paralysis->Physical->Physical->Rennac attacks->Physical
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)- This could flip depending on how much damage Icy Poizn does. Bernadette Pdur+not great at evading 30% limit range=217% speed Gen who is constantly pushing Bern's speed back. Not sure I respect just resistance against CoL status anyways.
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)- Chip until time for Paralyze, then smack to death
Gen vs. Jun (VP)-2HKOs and blocks Paralysis
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
Gen vs. Avril (WA5)- Gut reaction. Avril doesn't have the damage to quite 2HKO (like...she has a 2.01HKO), 3HKO gives Gen time.

Gen 7-5
Nina 6-6. Specific spoiling powers that play very well with bad Light fighters
Sherri- 5-7

Cool trio of Lights. Status tends to have exited Light into Middle, but all three women here have something that they can use pretty effectively.

[SnowFire]

Dhyer: Sherri is actually fast.  She's 91 RT to a first turn average of 95 or 96, and her long-term speed is even better (403 ticks to turn 4 compared to 460 on average), mostly because she misses Meditate.  (The averages assume you optimize for damage rather than speed, so characters are using Meditate / Tremendous Shot / Mighty Impact / etc. which slow you down a bit.)  RT+13 on Vulcan Lance / Word of Pain is pretty light compared to some of the heavy weapons used by other characters, too.  Pretty sure she should just run over the likes of Marivel with offense if you give her some starting MP rather than bother with status.  (Pyro's topic claims Marivel clocks in at 79% HP with below average magic resist, so all it takes are two shots of average damage magic to kill her.)

[superaielman]

You don't see BoF3 stat down as increasing crisis, Dhyer?

[Dhyerwolf]

You don't see BoF3 stat down as increasing crisis, Dhyer?

Even if it does, all it would do is make it so that Irvine can get limits at 40% instead of 33%, which is still very easy for Nina to get around on a double.

[Dark Holy Elf]

While I'm not inclined to see BoF3 stat downs not named Slow increasing crisis myself (Meltdown doesn't, after all), and Dhyer is quite correct in noting how small a boost Slow is (6%!),  doubleturns aren't really a thing that can happen against an FF8 character who needs to get a limit to win, as the FF8 character will sit there so they can begin limit-fishing as soon as possible. Unless you argue that an Ex-Turn and the following turn would be chained immediately after each other? Which is possible depending on how you translate such things.

Regardless, Nina's speed edge will make it harder to get a limit between her turns, so I'm certainly inclined to agree with Dhyer overall, without actually running the numbers.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3): No.
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7): Nina can 2HKO form 1 (which means the capsules don't get turns), and Sirocco owns form 2 since it can't use damage without the OHKO-bait right arm. So onto form 3! Nina 3HKOs, but Hojo 2HKOs... and does so solidly enough that he can probably afford to miss a swing or two.
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3): The near-constant doubleturns should let her overcome the healing I would think, and she outslugs him pretty cleanly otherwise (both 5HKO each other at base... regen makes that a 6HKO for Nina but doubleturns are a thing).
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF): Better at the same game.
Nina vs. Locke (FF6): Locke immunes slow and ITD means he functionally resists Blunt. See Snow, past that.
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8): 3HKOs first. So much for Godlike res... It's possible Rennac deserves an Exp boost or something but meh.
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5): Yeah no, Bernadette MDef is huge and healing gives her plenty of ways to slowly wear Nina down.
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8): I think Nina 4HKOs, but she also has a lot of damage control, so I dunno if Irvine will get a limit off. Blunt buys her some time, Irvine will needs at least four more shots after that lands... and Nina's own slow is pretty bad, I doubt it buys her more than the turn spent casting it, and casting it twice just takes too long.
Nina vs. Jun (VP): Blunt lands before a Soul Crush, wrecked.
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2): Trusting people who remember Marivel more than me.
Nina vs. Kain (FF4): Nina has a... 10HKO with Sirocco. Kain 3HKOs with Jump. Nina's faster. If she lands Blunt on the second try, Kain will then need about six more attacks to win... so Nina needs to land Slow as well? Don't think it's good enough, by that point Kain only needs five more attacks while she still needs 10, and he's going first, and she doesn't have more than a 2-1.
Nina vs. Avril (WA5): Avril's pretty close to a OHKO here. So yeah, 3HKO at worst even after Blunt.


So Sherri can throw in a status every other turn and use the alternate turn to regain MP (either herb or drain)... but chances are opponents will sneak a hit in during this if she actually wants to kill them.

Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3): 2HKOs. Sherri is faster so can start the status game, but see above, Cecile will likely finish the KO at some point. Could be wrong, the status game gives me headaches.
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7): Slightly lower Hojo HP respect should give her this.
Sherri vs. Peco (BoF3): Can overcome the healing/regen easily, and Peco slugging is epically bad.
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF): Kills in three turns, isn't killed in two, Magic Blocker shouldn't be relevant.
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6): Well Locke is faster, but various status should work (not stone, but she has others).
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8): I think.
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5): Magical anything against Bernadette. No.
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8): Pretty obvious.
Sherri vs. Jun (VP): Should just outslug?
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2)
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4)
Sherri vs. Avril (WA5)

Mostly ended up just copying Random here, his votes seem spot on.


So yeah I'm not cool with changing builds you need to replay the game to change, generally? Not sure which build is better, just going with Dhyer's default for now. So no paralysis. If someone wants to argue me paralysis build is better, feel free.

Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3): I think? Gen goes first and uses JFJ, but then her damage is so slow anyway... and she's being 2HKOed.
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7): Gen damage not good enough here.
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3): Kneejerking she overwhelms, but not certain. Slowed Peco is just so damn slow, and she gets some time in her limit range.
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF): 2HKOs.
Gen vs. Locke (FF6): Think so, anyway. Even if slow works, he's so much faster that she can't get in the laps she badly needs to win slugfests, and Locke's MDef isn't bad enough to get him 2HKOed.
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8): Jump Forward Jig, Slow Strike x2, finish with a physical? Hm, that kills in 3.21 turns, but the slow should mean Rennac doesn't get 3 before then.
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5): Limited resources against a healer. Paralysis build might take this?
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8): Gen does not deal with average durability that 3HKOs her (see below). Sad. EDIT: Although... to 3HKO her, Irvine does run into her limit range. Okay, yeah, that gives her the fatal turn fast enough. EDIT AGAIN: except she CAN'T AFFORD THIS STRATEGY holy crap. And... without it, even the limit can't save her against average speed, though it's close.
Gen vs. Jun (VP): As above, Jun kills in three. This time, though, Gen needs three Slow Strikes to kill, and those don't come fast enough.
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2): ID is turn 2 here. Even if it's only turn 3, though, can Gen really blitz her out before then? Her blitzing game is so awful due to the bad base speed of Slow Strike, see Irvine/etc. Marivel is a bit slower and more fragile so I guess this could be a Rennac-like situation... but yeah 46% ID is good enoguh here.
Gen vs. Kain (FF4): Kain has a 4HKO with Jump... which does give Gen extra time to set up buffs! Except she can't afford them because lol her MP. This build sucks, maybe physical is better since at least the damage is free. Anyway yeah Kain gets the first hit in no matter what, can't really see Gen taking this.
Gen vs. Avril (WA5): 2HKOs.

What a wretched dueller.


Sherri 9-3
Nina 4-8
Gen 2-10

[Luther Lansfeld]

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7)-
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3)
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Nina vs. Locke (FF6)
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8)
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5)
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8)
Nina vs. Jun (VP)
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2)
Nina[ vs. Kain (FF4)
Nina vs. Avril (WA5)

Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3)
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7)
Sherri vs. Peco (BoF3)
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6)
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8)- Gut
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5)
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8)
Sherri vs. Jun (VP)
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4)
Sherri vs. Avril (WA5)

[Pyro]

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3): Even with P.Atk Down she still should overwhelm the physically frail Nina. If Nina could land the Atk-Down again and again this might be different. But she's liable to miss attempts.
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7): Kills form 1 too quickly to be concerned (2HKOs it?). Form 2 she has no fear of the status... Form 4 has a 4HKO. Which is a 2HKO to Nina. She 3HKOs the form. She's in trouble.
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3): Sweet jesus. Mind Shield cuts her stat down hit rate. He'll try to just KO with physicals. But his physical damage is so bad... a 3-4HKO to Nina. He can heal though, and she can't. Her damage to him is... bad. A 5HKO? She'll get doubles though. Man.
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF): Surely.
Nina vs. Locke (FF6): 2-3HKOs?
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8): He's got a 2HKO, but she nixes that by buffing, so he has a 4HKO. Then... His mdurability is fine, so she is stuck 4HKOing herself. He starts into her, and I think it might be dangerous to go for more Atk debuffs.
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5): Healing.
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8): 2HKOs before an attack debuff. Kind of like Rennac here, I just don't think Nina can consistently get off the Debuffs needed.
Nina vs. Jun (VP)
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2): God Marivel. Slow -> Pound into oblivion.
Nina vs. Kain (FF4): Debuffing his attack power... is probably enough.
Nina vs. Avril (WA5): She's generic and should be okay.

I think I'll copy Snowfire for the most part.
Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3)
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)
Gen vs. Jun (VP)
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
Gen vs. Avril (WA5)

[Random Consonant]

Nina (Breath of Fire 3) vs. Cecille (S3) - lol
Nina vs. Hojo (FF7) - Well form 3 gets 2HKO'd to me here so may as well vote this way.
Nina vs. Peco (BoF3)
Nina vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Nina vs. Locke (FF6)
Nina vs. Rennac (FE8)
Nina vs. Bernadette (S5) - Nina3 against Bernadette mdef/magic combo that is rich.
Nina vs. Irvine (FF8)
Nina vs. Jun (VP) - I think not.
Nina vs. Marivel (WA2)
Nina vs. Kain (FF4)
Nina vs. Wood (RS3)
Nina vs. Avril (WA5)

I have this sneaking suspicion that Shackle duration has been somewhat oversold since I've never seen it go on more than 2 turns and could swear I've seen it wear off after *1*.  Assuming it lasts 2 for now.
Sherri (Tactics Ogre) vs. Cecille (S3) - Yellow Scarf shuts down Shackle.  Don't think anything else Sherri has here works too well.
Sherri vs. Hojo (FF7) - I'm just gonna sign on with Snow boss disrespect here.
Sherri vs. Peco (BoF3) - Poco effectively 4HKOs and Sleep is turn 3 and doesn't really save him from anything.   Considering how wretched his speed is, Sherri likely has enough time even with out the status game.
Sherri vs. Elementalist (WAXF) - Not too sure of 2HKO hype going by a hypothetical +6 average, books are top of the line for magic and Elementalist's extra +25% there means she likely loses out here more than most.  I guess there'd be a few who'd lose out more but giving her 2HKO credit seems to be overestimating the level of impact it'd have on most relative to her.  Not really feeling Magic Blocking hype here.
Sherri vs. Locke (FF6) - Shackle -> Word of Pain x2 combo.  Not sure why anyone would hype petrify here, that can be blocked.
Sherri vs. Rennac (FE8)
Sherri vs. Bernadette (S5)
Sherri vs. Irvine (FF8)
Sherri vs. Jun (VP) - Blocking Paralysis costs too much here.
Sherri vs. Marivel (WA2) - STATUS LOK WILL SPOIL SHERRI WITH ALL ITS--no Marivel just gets outsped and 2HKO'd after Sherri munches an herb and the ID is turn 3.
Sherri vs. Kain (FF4) - Kain.
Sherri vs. Wood (RS3) - Munch herb -> Shackle -> munch more herb -> experience Earth Adverse Vulcan Lance III
Sherri vs. Avril (WA5) - Avril is slower, actually.  Not that this helps Sherri when she's being 2HKO'd and doesn't really 2HKO back after munching strange plants herself.

Well that was better than I expected.


Genovefa (Child of Light) vs. Cecille (S3)
Gen vs. Hojo (FF7)
Gen vs. Peco (BoF3)
Gen vs. Elementalist (WAXF)
Gen vs. Locke (FF6)
Gen vs. Rennac (FE8)
Gen vs. Bernadette (S5)
Gen vs. Irvine (FF8)
Gen vs. Jun (VP)
Gen vs. Marivel (WA2)
Gen vs. Kain (FF4)
Gen vs. Wood (RS3)
Gen vs. Avril (WA5)

[Dark Holy Elf]

Edited in some Gen votes. She is really bad, unless I'm missing something.

[SnowFire]

Incidentally while I'm inclined to be lenient in many cases, I do agree that Gen should be held to 1 build due to how hard it is to swap.  I just have no clue which build it is.

The long paralysis / Battle Cry build definitely feels the closest to in-game for me, and it allows some really flashy quintaturn kills against those with bad damage who proc Battle Cry or who just low durability in general, but sheesh.  30% HP off questionable durability for Battle Cry?  There's a lot of Suikoscrubs who can chip around this, especially since that build of Gen doesn't have much pressure when not comboing off.  And paralysis immunity is way more common in the DL, even if I'd be inclined to be generous to Gen when said paralysis immunity is shaky.

The Slow Strike / magic build is okay but basically consigns Gen to be a mediocre-in-Light slugger, unless her opponent hits her into a 25% HP Battle Cry.  More consistent but also misses out some matches where a good Paralysis would save the day.

Random: I'll double-check Shackle duration, most of my testing was with Sleep & Charm.  I will say that we might be talking about the same things anyway, because I was counting *Sherri's* turns while just spamming wait, and TO PCs are a tad faster than random generic enemies AND she didn't have any RT penalty from an action.  So a "2 turn" (=2 Sherri turn) duration probably means the enemy lost 1 turn to the status, then shook off the status on *their* 2nd turn, but Sherri had already gotten 2 turns in the interim, if that makes any sense.  (So 2-4 turns can arguably equal "1.5-3.5 turns.")  EDIT: But to be clear, it's usually Sherri turns that actually *matter*, so I think it's fair, especially if how TO status works under the hood is "roll up a random RT duration in a range, status ends on next turn after that," so TO enemies being a tad slow makes the status look worse than it really is.  (Of course, if how TO status works is "enemies get an increasing chance of success at breaking out every one of their turns", then slow enemies actually oversell status duration!  Sigh.  Guess that means maybe testing with a fast enemy & a slow enemy.)  I'll definitely try testing with Sherri eating a Magic Herb every turn and see if things change for Shackle though.