Author Topic: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4  (Read 2171 times)

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #25 on: September 23, 2015, 04:24:17 AM »
The speed is because I take different levels than Pyro did. And Choko and Hemo Ji both lose 6 levels by my calculations (maybe more for Hemo-Ji if other considerations are taken into account), which tend to outweigh any of level increases that other PCs had (although other PCs lost levels, but Choko and Hemo Ji alone outweigh any level gain).

If Gau was faster to me, Gau would win, but Iga has a very slight speed advantage to me. I hope you don't think that I'm actually hyping Iga hitting Gau through status immunity (Btw, I would let a normal paralysis blocker get Iga's status anyways despite the fact that ATL 2 has Paralysis. This is because Iga is a lucky mother fucker and that status kind of sucks in game (for completely non-DL relevant reasons).

A lot of different variables are going to go into the status balancing (truth be told, I guess the fact is that status failing against the most important enemies that aren't even weighed into the averages I was formulating might be why I have no problem generally making status worse. But there's so many factors in so many different games that it's hard to say. I could also adopt stat penalties for status blockers, but I'd probably be tempted to make them universal as my issue with the way the idea is formulated now is basically a cast with nothing but status blockers (which could all completely suck in game for a variety of reasons) get a big bonus that doesn't sit right to me). Right now I'm just trying to grapple with getting a handle on just factoring in the full spectrum of enemy resistances.

Speaking of, if anyone knows of any games where you are basically sure that status hits all randoms at same hits rates (basically meaning nothing is immune), please let me know!
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #26 on: September 23, 2015, 06:05:33 AM »
Re Gau vs. Iga:

I don't know how much speed AtL2 PCs lose in 6 levels (given how small the curve is, it can't be that much), but I just tried removing Diekbeck and stripping 3 speed off of the two PCs you mentioned. I got an average of 23.47 and a SD of 1.90, which would put Iga at +0.17, which is 2.55% to you I believe?

By the numbers in the FF6 stat topic, Gau can beat that just by opting for a Tiger Mask (even assuming everyone else switches to their best +speed helmet and adjusting the average). With your SD views he can even survive a pretty significant FF6 speed disrespect. With Dark Gear all doubt is removed, though of course he'd need to have a strategy which can survive his now below average defence (Charm should work).


Re status balancing:

Another issue which you may or may not want to factor in which certainly makes a big difference is enemy durability. It's really hard to care about most status in a game where enemies tend to get 1-2HKOed by almost all damage anyway. (Sometimes this combines with "lots of immune enemies" where only the real fragile ones are vulnerable... e.g. almost everything you can ID in Shadow Hearts 3 has low enough HP that they can be OHKOed by ordinary magic, thus Grand Slam is pathetic in-game.)

You're right that, under my views, a cast with nothing but statusblockers benefits tremendously. (Or, alternatively, a cast whose statusblockers are on their overall best equips anyway... such as Chrono Trigger, or FF5 PCs with access to Ribbons.) I don't really have a big problem with this, because it tends to mean you do use statusblockers in-game in those games, so those PCs do feel more intuitively status-resistant. By comparison you don't want to use basic statusblockers much in FF6 because you're pushing out some really useful things. I do agree it does inflate some casts, but there is some logic behind it, and it really isn't any different from the way FF9/Legaia 2/etc. benefits from its elemental defence.

Quote
Speaking of, if anyone knows of any games where you are basically sure that status hits all randoms at same hits rates (basically meaning nothing is immune), please let me know!

Games with randoms who are uniformly status-susceptible? The list strikes me as fairly short. Running down the list of ranked games...

-Fire Emblem, but this isn't DL relevant for the most part.
-Legend of Dragoon, IIRC
-Phantasy Star 4 has Explode/Negatis/Crash which hit all species types (only failing on bosses), although their rates do vary with the target's strength/magic stat. Other status is species-restricted, though you can at least predict what status will and won't work on typically.
-Pokemon (with only extremely rare exceptions in gen 3 onwards)
-Seiken Densetsu 3, IIRC? If there are immune randoms I'm blanking on them, maybe those clones in the final dungeon... Wouldn't be surprised if SoM were the same.
-Suikoden 1, for ID at least
-Valkyrie Profile 1 is pretty close, only a few boss pallette-swaps are immune, though those do become common right at the end.
-I believe KOS-MOS' S-Chain works on pretty much all randoms, and many bosses.

There may be more since I'm not an expert on the status attacks of every DL game. Obviously there are also moves which just work on everything (Spellbinding Eye, FF6 Charm, WA4 stat downs outside magic immunity) but those tend to get more respect as is.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2015, 06:08:18 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #27 on: September 23, 2015, 10:32:59 PM »
Hmm, FF 6 added +20 to speed right. Gau would then be 60 to a 57.8 average (I don't do any average moving). Taking FF 6 speed literally (and assuming no randomization of speed turn 1), that would be enough.

Iga is actually slightly slower than those numbers. He's about 101.5% to me turn 1.

Damage balancing gets into a whole new world of balancing. I'm not adverse to it, but it would take a lot of additional metric building that might be more difficult. Once I clear out all the FAQable games, I can post at least basic notes. Might be something to more consider/discuss then. I find it's a lot easier to at all have some raw data to work with first.
...into the nightfall.

Twilkitri

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1207
    • View Profile
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #28 on: September 26, 2015, 11:52:06 PM »
Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)

Heavy

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

VySaika

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2836
    • View Profile
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #29 on: September 27, 2015, 06:29:00 AM »
Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
<%Laggy> we're open minded individuals here
<+RandomKesaranPasaran> are we
<%Laggy> no not really.

<Tide|NukicommentatoroptionforF> Hatbot is a pacifist

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5583
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #30 on: September 27, 2015, 09:13:27 AM »
Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X) vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)
Elc (Arc the Lad II) vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)- No vote.

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen) vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)- No vote.
Gau (Final Fantasy VI) vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)- No vote.

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia) vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)- no vote.
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy) vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.

Cmdr_King

  • Strong and Full of Love
  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 5583
  • Is Gay
    • View Profile
    • CK Blog
Re: RPGDL 2015 Season 2, Week 4
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2015, 05:54:17 AM »
Godlike

Yunalesca (Final Fantasy X)- iiiii vs Fou-lu (Breath of Fire IV)- iiii
Elc (Arc the Lad II)- i vs TimeLord (SaGa Frontier)- iiiii

Heavy

Kiryl (Dragon Quest IV: Chapters of the Chosen)- iiii vs Angela (Seiken Densetsu 3)- iii
Gau (Final Fantasy VI)- iiii vs Iga (Arc the Lad II)- i

Middle

Henry (Fire Emblem: Awakening)- iiiii vs Hippopressor (Mega Man X: Command Mission)
Raynie (Radiant Historia)- iiiiiiii vs Valeria (Suikoden Series)

Light

Yushis (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- iiiii vs Shu (Arc the Lad II)
Lilianne Valendorf (Mana Khemia 2: Fall of Alchemy)- iiiiii vs Innes (Fire Emblem: Sacred Stones)- i
CK: She is the female you
Snow: Speaking of Sluts!

<NotMiki> I mean, we're talking life vs. liberty, with the pursuit of happiness providing color commentary.