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Author Topic: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena  (Read 993 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« on: March 24, 2016, 05:03:34 AM »
Reynard (CTON) - Likes: Long walks on the beach, being invincible.  Dislikes: Fatal status, poison.
Myuria (SO4) - Likes: Long walks on frozen planets, taking others to get frozen there.  Dislikes: Clothes heavy enough to actually wear when freezing to death.
Aegislash (Pokemon) - It's a steel ghost!  Quick, set it on fire!
Gladiator Faris (FF5a) - Control-ish.  Flip a coin, hope to Finish things.

Reynard vs. Altima (FFT)
Reynard vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Reynard vs. Scias (BoF4)
Reynard vs. Kuja (FF9)
Reynard vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Reynard vs. Zerase (S5)
Reynard vs. G-Elements (XG)
Reynard vs. Rufus (VP2)
Reynard vs. Nel (SO3)
Reynard vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Reynard vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Reynard vs. Sol (FFD)
Reynard vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Myuria vs. Altima (FFT)
Myuria vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Myuria vs. Scias (BoF4)
Myuria vs. Kuja (FF9)
Myuria vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Myuria vs. Zerase (S5)
Myuria vs. G-Elements (XG)
Myuria vs. Rufus (VP2)
Myuria vs. Nel (SO3)
Myuria vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Myuria vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Myuria vs. Sol (FFD)
Myuria vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Aegislash vs. Altima (FFT)
Aegislash vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Aegislash vs. Scias (BoF4)
Aegislash vs. Kuja (FF9)
Aegislash vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Aegislash vs. Zerase (S5)
Aegislash vs. G-Elements (XG)
Aegislash vs. Rufus (VP2)
Aegislash vs. Nel (SO3)
Aegislash vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Aegislash vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Aegislash vs. Sol (FFD)
Aegislash vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Gladiator Faris vs. Altima (FFT)
Gladiator Faris vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Gladiator Faris vs. Scias (BoF4)
Gladiator Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)
Gladiator Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Gladiator Faris vs. Zerase (S5)
Gladiator Faris vs. G-Elements (XG)
Gladiator Faris vs. Rufus (VP2)
Gladiator Faris vs. Nel (SO3)
Gladiator Faris vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Gladiator Faris vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Gladiator Faris vs. Sol (FFD)
Gladiator Faris vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2016, 01:55:35 AM »
Reynard's pretty straightforward after it became clear his slugging was Low Middle at best.  Either his trick works and he's invincible or it doesn't and he loses.

Reynard vs. Altima (FFT) - Grand Cross, although if you REALLY disrespect Altima's HP Reynard might win this.  (Only her first form has the status, right?)
Reynard vs. Ephraim (FE8) - Siegmund double is gonna leave a mark.  Bad defense is even worse against 2 hits, not that it matters.
Reynard vs. Scias (BoF4)
Reynard vs. Kuja (FF9)
Reynard vs. Marcello (DQ8) - u got ice waved
Reynard vs. Zerase (S5)
Reynard vs. G-Elements (XG)
Reynard vs. Rufus (VP2) - Stone.
Reynard vs. Nel (SO3) - Freeze.
Reynard vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3) - With the recent Hilda antihype, I might be tempted to see Reynard as immune to it, since there isn't really enemy-side ID to worry about in CTON, and the PC-side ID is quite scrubby.


Finisher is ~1.47 PCHP or so when it resolves, and might do averagish damage even when it doesn't.

Gladiator Faris vs. Altima (FFT)
Gladiator CAN win with good luck on blocks, but nah.
Gladiator Faris vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Long Range = remote axe with WTA hype?  Anyway, somehow, Eph just might survive a single Finisher, but he won't survive Finisher + any random damage, and WTA arguably pushes up Gladiator's non-9999 damage a tad a bit anyhoo.
Gladiator Faris vs. Scias (BoF4)
Narrowly faster, should 2HKO.
Gladiator Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)
Faster, 2HKOs.
Gladiator Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Faster, 2HKOs.
Gladiator Faris vs. Zerase (S5)
Faster, 2HKOs.
Gladiator Faris vs. G-Elements (XG)
Gladiator is not good at controlling its chipping.
Gladiator Faris vs. Rufus (VP2)
Faster, 2HKOs, probably immunes some of Rufus's status nonsense.
Gladiator Faris vs. Nel (SO3)
Not Freeze, though.  (Although if Nel's odds are shaky enough on this, I could be convinced to change my vote, since she does start with a 50% chance of getting blown out of the water...  my recollection was the it was like 90+% though.)
Gladiator Faris vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Immunes ID, Finisher blows up a healing / stalling game.

Reynard: 5-5
Gladiator: 5-5
« Last Edit: March 25, 2016, 01:57:43 AM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #2 on: March 27, 2016, 05:13:35 PM »
Reynard vs. Altima (FFT): Both forms have Grand Cross, not that it matters.
Reynard vs. Ephraim (FE8): Probably doubles, which is death. WTD hurts but not enough.
Reynard vs. Scias (BoF4): Sleep kinda destroys the invincible strategy, Scias just waits for its duration to end then the Shining Blades come.
Reynard vs. Kuja (FF9): Kuja has no tricks that get past Reynard.
Reynard vs. Marcello (DQ8): Oh yeah, Wave of Ice is bad here.
Reynard vs. Zerase (S5): Zerase has 58% durability, so Reynard needs to do 2097 in one turn. He... actually can. Not sure what I feel about this accessory shuffling, there's probably some average cheating in there, but I imagine he manages here. Good thing otherwise he'd get ruined by 20% sleep + 30% silence which is just embarrassing.
Reynard vs. G-Elements (XG): Only does damage.
Reynard vs. Rufus (VP2): Stone strats.
Reynard vs. Nel (SO3): Freeze.
Reynard vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3): ID. Even if you want to disrespect it, uh, she'll get lots of shots.
Reynard vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn): Twister's flinch is his only chance, can't imagine it's gonna kick in in time, though.
Reynard vs. Sol (FFD): Reminds me I need to work on FFD damage/durability figures, I had laid the groundwork but haven't done all the specific work. Anyway... Bash probably works.
Reynard vs. Golbez (FF4TAY): Oh man, does SEIZURE actually win this? I think it might.

Myuria vs. Altima (FFT): Yeaaah no.
Myuria vs. Ephraim (FE8): Safest strategy is probably just to let Eph go first, tank the hit (he isn't doubling or OHKOing), then unleash Deep Freeze x3, which is... three shots of 50% through 38% evade = 31% per shot which overall is a >67% chance to win. Close, but good enough. She may also be able to go first but it risks Javelin counters.
Myuria vs. Scias (BoF4): Yeah BoF4 has nothing remotely freeze-like in its status list.
Myuria vs. Kuja (FF9): Myuria can beat some bosses, certainly, but they need to fulfill pretty specific requirements. Kuja's NE magic isn't really anything she can handle.
Myuria vs. Marcello (DQ8): Wave of Ice and too many elements.
Myuria vs. Zerase (S5): This is pretty tough. Zerase needs to outspeed, and for Myuria's status to not be turn 1. Myuria needs for either of those not to be the case. For Myuria's status to not be turn 1 requires either icy poison to be seen as close enough to freeze, or Zerase MDef to reduce it. I dunno, this is a coinflip. Call it a tie.
Myuria vs. G-Elements (XG): This is the type of boss Myuria can handle. Her essentially infinite healing can spoil the high-HP phase, which can only take off less than a third of her HP per round while she heals for 40%. So she chips them to just above limit range, heals to full, then uses Enlighten and Mindflare so she does 80% PCHP on her next attack, which dodges the limit in full.
Myuria vs. Rufus (VP2): Immunes freeze and overwhelms with damage/status of his own.
Myuria vs. Nel (SO3): They both block freeze. Nel, however, also halves ice/lightning (which reduces Myuria to a 6-7HKO at base), and her healing is more potent. Myuria's superior buffing game can't really tilt that.
Myuria vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3): More useful status. Also faster.
Myuria vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn): Rayquaza is ridiculously lucky here. Myuria does 125% to its 1.28 magic durability. It can also block freeze... once. And after doing so, it can still barely 2HKO with Dragon Claw + Extremespeed. (Incidentally, Extremespeed should probably be on its default set instead of Rest
), which is needed because otherwise Myuria laps it with Mindflare -> overkill.
Myuria vs. Sol (FFD): Simple freeze win.
Myuria vs. Golbez (FF4TAY): And here.

Aegislash vs. Altima (FFT): Grand Cross.
Aegislash vs. Ephraim (FE8): Siegmund hitting a very meaningful weakness in-game (against undead creatures, no less) means I'm inclined to translate it here somehow. Let's say Siegmund negates Ghost typing, but still runs into Steel resistance. Eph would thus 3HKO Aegislash raw durability, which drops to 5HKO due to steel, back to 3HKO due to doubling. Since Aegislash needs three Sword Dances to OHKO Eph's high durability, I doubt there's any way it gets the time to do this. Maaaybe with an Iron Defence in there too and a lot of CTB doubling hype, but eh not too inclined to go there. Things get better for Aegislash if you see it shutting off doubles with Automize (but if you do that, you'd better not give it CTB hype IMO), but also much worse if you give Siegmund any credit for being the "spear of fire" or hitting a monster -weakness-...
Aegislash vs. Scias (BoF4): Aegislash should OHKO after one Swords Dance, and can use Automize to largely neutralize sleep as a threat. Meanwhile it resists ice, so Scias is in bad shape.
Aegislash vs. Kuja (FF9): 2HKOs faster.
Aegislash vs. Marcello (DQ8): Oh hey, fire magic and dispel.
Aegislash vs. Zerase (S5): 2HKOs faster.
Aegislash vs. G-Elements (XG): Seraphita has a 14HKO here, but that's... actually kinda bad news since Aegislash has nothing to slow it down. It needs to land 10 attacks worth of damage, and under no condition can it let Kishin Sword get off, so that's... actually very difficult. Buff once, attack, buff twice more, attack twice should do it. It needs to complete this kill before... turn 5.33, effectively. Without a speed boost, no chance. With? It looks like it barely manages... but that's not good enough, since sadly for it, its defences will have to be down at one point during this. And I see no way to avoid that. Close though.
Aegislash vs. Rufus (VP2): It's possible Rufus pulls this out, but I dunno, not enough of his damage is lightning at a guess, and petrify is out.
Aegislash vs. Nel (SO3): Aegislash can block freeze once, but dunno if that's enough. Nel... needs to get four turns to make it stick. Dhyer hypes Ice Daggers as pretty fast, so... sure, why not.
Aegislash vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3): Yeaaah Grand Slam is out. Hilda's only real hope is to kill with dark magic. Slim Hilda can do this in three turns, Curvy in 4. In both cases, Aegislash needs one less turn to win, and I can't imagine Hilda's defensive buffs tilt things more than Automize does.
Aegislash vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn): Rayquaza has a 5HKO here, and no way to stop Aegislash's bullshit. Terrible type matchup.
Aegislash vs. Sol (FFD): Sol might be able to pull this off with Gaia's Hammer. It's certainly a bit of a damage hit, but it might let him win the slugfest due to Aegislash's ground weakness. We don't have good enough FFD numbers to know for sure, so abstain.
Aegislash vs. Golbez (FF4TAY): Golbez 2HKOs, but has a charge time. Quake is the best here, but it still takes him effectively three turns. That's still good enough to win... unless King's Shield fucks with the called shots somewhat, and on average it will be able to do so at least once, which buys Aegislash the extra turn it needs. If Bio + Quake could kill it'd be another matter, but nope.

Gladiator Faris vs. Altima (FFT): Rule of thumb: Gladiator does not beat anyone who survives 9999 FF5 damage. Of course one match later in this field proves me wrong so eh.
Gladiator Faris vs. Ephraim (FE8): Not sure how on earth Eph is supposed to survive 9999 damage, on the other hand. His PDur doesn't matter, just his HP. If Finisher triggers a physical turn 1 then Faris explodes but that's statistically unlikely... and the shield might save her anyway.
Gladiator Faris vs. Scias (BoF4): Marginally faster.
Gladiator Faris vs. Kuja (FF9): Faster, 2HKOs
Gladiator Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8): Faster. Man Heavy as the realm of the 2HKO fest is go here.
Gladiator Faris vs. Zerase (S5): Somehow I keep disagreeing with Snowfire's speed checks here, go figure. Lots of people in this above average range.
Gladiator Faris vs. G-Elements (XG): Well G-Elements can survive a Finisher, but not two? And the first... probably doesn't knock them into a limit. Meanwhile Gladiator can equip no weapon and makes her damage come in reliable chunks.
Gladiator Faris vs. Rufus (VP2): Don't think Rufus could null fire.
Gladiator Faris vs. Nel (SO3): Faster, and her freeze odds are better than Finisher odds at base. Shield could tilt this back I guess, but eh.
Gladiator Faris vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3): On the other hand I'm okay with assuming a shield procs here.
Gladiator Faris vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn): Faster, so has lots of time to do messy things. Probably just 2HKOs with Dragon Claw or something.
Gladiator Faris vs. Sol (FFD): Uh I think?
Gladiator Faris vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)

Faris 9-4
Myuria 6-6
Aegislash 5-7
Reynard 4-9

Faris is overrated due to there being literally no fire immunes in this field. I decided to be nice to her and make damage halving do nothing (which is how I suspect it would work in FF5, but testing could yet prove otherwise).
« Last Edit: March 29, 2016, 07:53:03 AM by Dark Holy Elf »

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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #3 on: March 29, 2016, 09:11:35 AM »
Aegislash vs. Altima (FFT)
Aegislash vs. Ephraim (FE8) - Siegmund hype, sure
Aegislash vs. Scias (BoF4)
Aegislash vs. Kuja (FF9)
Aegislash vs. Zerase (S5)
Aegislash vs. G-Elements (XG)
Aegislash vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Aegislash vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)

Gladiator Faris vs. Altima (FFT)
Gladiator Faris vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Gladiator Faris vs. Scias (BoF4)
Gladiator Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)
Gladiator Faris vs. Zerase (S5) - maybe if you disrespect ff5 atb but even then Zerase needs a generous view of SDs
Gladiator Faris vs. G-Elements (XG)
Gladiator Faris vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3) - Gladiator has no ID blocking so it's shields or bust.  Which at best for Hilda just means this match is essentially a tie so if nothing else balance of interps works as a tiebreaker here.
Gladiator Faris vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2016, 09:05:47 PM by Random Consonant »

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #4 on: March 29, 2016, 11:08:26 PM »
Elf: Oh yeah, some of those might be me just kneejerking the speed wrong.  Forgot Finisher was ITD, you're right on that, and sure, Sleep can mess up Reynard stratz.  And...  I didn't remember Zerase as being THAT physically frail, but yeah, Reynard just smashes her in the face then.

For "average cheating", though, wouldn't it be average cheating in-reverse if anything?  Aka that the stat topic is possibly too harsh on the cast?  The 3-turn damage average assumes that everybody equips for their best 3-turn damage I believe (Pyro can correct if wrong).  If you lock down accessory shuffling, then a number of characters get their best win rates via optimizing for turn 1 burst (or at least turn 2 burst), considering how the cast only has a few legal status blockers and the non-healers want to win fast, but that's going to lower the 3-turn average and make the cast look better. 

I don't know SO4 but it almost never makes sense to intentionally wait out an FE character?  Can't Eph just toss Javelins until Myuria actually engages if he wants counter hype?  (A buffing game might change this, of course, but sounds like the Freeze game being hyped here.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #5 on: March 30, 2016, 12:13:31 AM »
Oh okay if the three-turn average is indeed based on that then all complaints are withdrawn.

Re Myuria/Eph, but "let Eph go first" I mean opting for a spell which is below average speed but has a higher rate of freeze. As you noted, Eph is going to attack as soon as he is able. (Although there are of course cases where it makes sense to wait out an FE character, particular in FE vs FE fights or FE vs limit fighters, which can result in stare-offs which need some sort of rule adjustment e.g. forcing both to attack, or other tiebreak. This isn't one, though.)

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Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Space bandit arena
« Reply #6 on: March 30, 2016, 02:22:00 AM »
Reynard vs. Altima (FFT): Status.
Reynard vs. Ephraim (FE8): No status (Eph doubles but I do in-game so most everyone does in FE8 so it kinda washes out).
Reynard vs. Scias (BoF4): Sleep?
Reynard vs. Kuja (FF9): No status.
Reynard vs. Marcello (DQ8): Icy Waves work? I... guess? Actually not so sure it's just something that ought be dispelled. Maybe it is.
Reynard vs. Zerase (S5): Middle slugging to the rescue!??
Reynard vs. G-Elements (XG)
Reynard vs. Rufus (VP2): Oh boy status.
Reynard vs. Nel (SO3): Icy.
Reynard vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3): Instant Death...
Reynard vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Reynard vs. Sol (FFD)
Reynard vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Myuria vs. Altima (FFT)
Myuria vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Myuria vs. Scias (BoF4)
Myuria vs. Kuja (FF9)
Myuria vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Myuria vs. Zerase (S5)
Myuria vs. G-Elements (XG)
Myuria vs. Rufus (VP2)
Myuria vs. Nel (SO3)
Myuria vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Myuria vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Myuria vs. Sol (FFD)
Myuria vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Aegislash vs. Altima (FFT)
Aegislash vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Aegislash vs. Scias (BoF4)
Aegislash vs. Kuja (FF9)
Aegislash vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Aegislash vs. Zerase (S5)
Aegislash vs. G-Elements (XG)
Aegislash vs. Rufus (VP2)
Aegislash vs. Nel (SO3)
Aegislash vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Aegislash vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Aegislash vs. Sol (FFD)
Aegislash vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)



Gladiator Faris vs. Altima (FFT)
Gladiator Faris vs. Ephraim (FE8)
Gladiator Faris vs. Scias (BoF4)
Gladiator Faris vs. Kuja (FF9)
Gladiator Faris vs. Marcello (DQ8)
Gladiator Faris vs. Zerase (S5)
Gladiator Faris vs. G-Elements (XG)
Gladiator Faris vs. Rufus (VP2)
Gladiator Faris vs. Nel (SO3)
Gladiator Faris vs. Hilda Valentine (SH3)
Gladiator Faris vs. Rayquaza (Pkmn)
Gladiator Faris vs. Sol (FFD)
Gladiator Faris vs. Golbez (FF4TAY)