Proving Grounds Middle: It's a secret to everyone

[SnowFire]

ODIN DARK (Fire Emblem Fates) - Possibly the most powerful dark mage in existence, "Odin" hides a terrible secret - he is actually the world's most powerful Myrmidon as well, mostly because there aren't any and they've been renamed to Samurai.
Kevin Graham (Trails SC) - Behind the charming facade, Father Kevin hides a terrible secret - he is actually a Graalsritter, one of the elite knights of the Church.  And behind the facade of merely being a new-ish Graalsritter lurks a yet more dire secret, but mostly the is-awesome kind, so no big, you can trust him, ladies.
Isaac (CTON) - "Isaac" actually hides a terrible secret.
Cecil (FF4) - "Cecil" hides his secrets inside a fat chocobo when his inventory gets full, but it smells weird over there, so I'm not poking my nose in to see what's stashed away.

Odin vs. Alex (Lunar)
Odin vs. Ayame (S3)
Odin vs. Alfina (G3)
Odin vs. Roxis (MK)
Odin vs. Yulie (WA4)
Odin vs. Ashley (WA2)
Odin vs. Aigis (P3)
Odin vs. Panne (FEA)
Odin vs. Kanan (SN)
Odin vs. Robo (CT)
Odin vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Odin vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Odin vs. Greg (WA5)


Kevin vs. Alex (Lunar)
Kevin vs. Ayame (S3)
Kevin vs. Alfina (G3)
Kevin vs. Roxis (MK)
Kevin vs. Yulie (WA4)
Kevin vs. Ashley (WA2)
Kevin vs. Aigis (P3)
Kevin vs. Panne (FEA)
Kevin vs. Kanan (SN)
Kevin vs. Robo (CT)
Kevin vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Kevin vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Kevin vs. Greg (WA5)


Isaac vs. Alex (Lunar)
Isaac vs. Ayame (S3)
Isaac vs. Alfina (G3)
Isaac vs. Roxis (MK)
Isaac vs. Yulie (WA4)
Isaac vs. Ashley (WA2)
Isaac vs. Aigis (P3)
Isaac vs. Panne (FEA)
Isaac vs. Kanan (SN)
Isaac vs. Robo (CT)
Isaac vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Isaac vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Isaac vs. Greg (WA5)


Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar)
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3)
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3)
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK)
Cecil vs. Yulie (WA4)
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2)
Cecil vs. Aigis (P3)
Cecil vs. Panne (FEA)
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN)
Cecil vs. Robo (CT)
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Cecil vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Cecil vs. Greg (WA5)

[Random Consonant]

SPOILERS man

So ODIN DARK either can heal himself for 21% of his slightly below average HP (more against mdef failures) or dish out below average 3HKOs with a 26% chance of glorious ShadowBoltDX crits.

Odin vs. Alex (Lunar) - Should 2HKO through the draining.
Odin vs. Ayame (S3) - Likely doubles, 2HKOs through the draining if she does.  (If she doesn't double she goes boom but so it goes.)
Odin vs. Alfina (G3) - probably manages to pull off her game
Odin vs. Roxis (MK) - Timed card bullshit
Odin vs. Yulie (WA4) - Hey guys Odin damage after Protect
Odin vs. Ashley (WA2) - Odin likely only 4HKOs, if there are views that make this worth thinking about they aren't mine.
Odin vs. Aigis (P3) - oh look, an SMT character who is weak to electricity
Odin vs. Panne (FEA) - trusting elfmath
Odin vs. Kanan (SN) - Feel free to disregard this (and other Kanan votes) since I haven't played Demon route where she has a PC form but human SN bosses are just so so bad.
Odin vs. Robo (CT) - Robo mdef
Odin vs. Black Mage (FF5) - fatal status of some flavor
Odin vs. Greg (WA5) - Outslugs.  Certainly not willing to hype leypoint boosting on the one wa5 character to start with a damage medium at any rate <_<

5-7, though a couple of these were close losses.  Still very much a Middle though.

For now I'll vote based off the Trails SC stat topic using the 100 CP average despite not really agreeing with all of the assumptions there.  Think I see starting CP somewhere between 60-75 though since I think I've convinced myself that there's not enough reasons to want to angle for higher than 100 to actually allow half maximum.

Kevin vs. Alex (Lunar) - Confuse
Kevin vs. Ayame (S3) - As usual no to yellow scarves blocking statuses S3 lacks, so yeah confuses and sticks the 3HKO probably.
Kevin vs. Alfina (G3) - Don't really think he manages this to me?  Open to arguments.
Kevin vs. Roxis (MK) - Another PC whose home game doesn't include confuse
Kevin vs. Yulie (WA4)  - Yeah this doesn't pan out too well for Yulie I'd think
Kevin vs. Ashley (WA2) - Yep.
Kevin vs. Aigis (P3) - And for a change, Mute.  At least he can't put his basica physical on autopilot <_<.
Kevin vs. Panne (FEA) - Panne RES isn't good, the evade makes this take longer but he should have time.
Kevin vs. Kanan (SN)
Kevin vs. Robo (CT) - Yeah, Robo Mdef, Kevin does only 3HKO here to me but it screws up what argument Robo had to 2HKO
Kevin vs. Black Mage (FF5) - Blocks Mute/Confuse at some hit (Bard's Clothes/Lamia Tiara), responds with Toad
Kevin vs. Greg (WA5) - and one more for the road

10-2, Confuse kind of makes him obnoxiously good in this field, certainly wrings more use out of the status here than he has any right to <_<.

Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar) - The regen is certainly problematic, as is the healing, have to think that'll let him outslug.
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3) - Evade
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3) - Cecil damage bad, even if the game doesn't work fully it should work well enough
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK) - Timed card bullshit is magic, even
Cecil vs. Yulie (WA4)
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2) - ID
Cecil vs. Aigis (P3) - cripes, Aigis damage issues vs. Cecil durability on one hand, Cecil damage issues against full healing on the other, sad but I have to think Aigis has damage instability on her side here.  If Thunder Arrows actually did damage this might be different but as it stands all it really accomplishes is forcing her to skip every other turn (and has crap accuracy because ff4 bows), and as Snow/Pyro note that could be seen as immuned anyway due to lolpierce.  I could be argued on this one but augh these people and pressure.
Cecil vs. Panne (FEA) - Less evade than Ayame, but counters.
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN)
Cecil vs. Robo (CT)
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Cecil vs. Greg (WA5) - I... think at least, Greg scrapes a 4HKO with his physical here to me but that gets outpaced by Cura and Cecil is faster, Hi-Crush is better but not by enough and it's unsustainable, Cecil only 5HKOs but he can at least do that much eventually.

2-10, shit son you bad

[superaielman]

Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar)- Red Dragon Anger sucks, Cecil can tank through a lot of the damage... but hell, he has trouble getting through Alex's regen. >_< Alex has a lot better healing too.
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3)- Evade.
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3)- Kneejerk 'Alfina bad without SP' vote.
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK)- Think his cards were ITD. Even if not, he's still got more damage.
Cecil vs Yulie (WA4- Status arrows. Allowing Black Market would flip this, granted.
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2)- ID? Whatever.
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN)- Don't allow PC Kanan, so *boot*
Cecil vs. Robo (CT)- Better healing.
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5)- Cecil needs to both 2HKO and avoid getting statused. Don't think he gets both status calls to me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Odin vs. Alex (Lunar): Easily 2HKOs through draining.
Odin vs. Ayame (S3): Do I see Ayame as at least +2 AS? Hmmm... probably. So they trade shots in practice... and Ayame should kill through the draining I think, her MDur's not so bad as to stop that. Close.
Odin vs. Alfina (G3): Has time.
Odin vs. Roxis (MK): Fires off way too much bullshit with AoE timed cards since he's not being 2HKOed.
Odin vs. Yulie (WA4): Even more magic durability.
Odin vs. Ashley (WA2): Hm. Ashley attacks and triggers a counter, the combined FP gain there may well give him Full Clip. That's... actually insanely close. Which means Odin throws in some weaker tome so it doesn't happen. But then he surely can't 3HKO.
Odin vs. Panne (FEA): Well, Panne doubles, that's for sure. But that just means they trade turns due to range. Panne 4HKOs, Odin... 3HKOs. But Panne sure has evade... although Odin's accurate, especially on those counters, and he only needs to make one attack at range. If he misses one... well he could get that hit back with a crit/vengeance, possibly even a dodge of his own. Feels like the odds favour him.
Odin vs. Kanan (SN): Uh Kanan's only legal form to me is Puny. I'd just abstain except might as well make Cecil look less sad when we get there...
Odin vs. Robo (CT): 2HKOs.
Odin vs. Black Mage (FF5): Sleep.
Odin vs. Lucienne (CTON): Probably. Lucienne has a case but it involves seeing her defence work against magic. Which ehh nah.
Odin vs. Greg (WA5): Greg's not that great. Odin should be able to survive a Heavy Crush 2HKO with two Nosferatus, then kill, at worst.

Isaac vs. Alex (Lunar): Faster, 2HKOs, tanks.
Isaac vs. Ayame (S3): Not sure I agree with ITE hype for CTON techs, I don't recall any CTON enemies with evade. That said, Ayame's evade isn't that great anyway for what it covers, I'm fine with not giving it turn 1 hype or anything.
Isaac vs. Alfina (G3): Armageddon makes Isaac's spiky damage survivable, Stun Force does its thing, etc.
Isaac vs. Roxis (MK): Roxis requires time to unleash his pain, Isaac does not give squishy enemies time.
Isaac vs. Yulie (WA4): Protect does not save Yulie.
Isaac vs. Ashley (WA2): While I don't think Ashley 2HKOs, I'm not sure that Isaac can 2HKO without giving Ashley enough FP for a turn 2 Full Clip.
Isaac vs. Panne (FEA): Isaac's melee and I'm not sure the anti-human thing would work on Panne, think he's probably in trouble since Panne probably two-rounds him and isn't OHKOed anyway.
Isaac vs. Kanan (SN): Free win, aisle 4.
Isaac vs. Robo (CT): Good pdur especially due to not being weakness-hit. And... it looks like he might even go first (Isaac would insta-double to me, but he's also dead).
Isaac vs. Black Mage (FF5): Black Mage is very dead if Sleep misses, but...
Isaac vs. Lucienne (CTON): Power Surge is a mean opener, yeah, and she probably wins in 3 hits.
Isaac vs. Greg (WA5): I guess Greg... barely survives? Using WA5 def hype? (He's about 106% durability.) And yeah he 2HKOs. Feels weird.


Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar): Alex has time to buff up and unleash hell with Sword Dance. A much more in-game style win then his usual!
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3): Evasion and too much pressure.
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3): Cecil doesn't block paralysis so I can't imagine this is much of a fight.
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK): Gets too much damage going.
Cecil vs. Yulie (WA4): Adrenaline gives her the edge in a stallfight.
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2): Gets off 3 DeadOrAlives.
Cecil vs. Panne (FEA): Doubles and thus does too much damage over time, also counters.
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN): It's okay Cecil, you're still good, really.
Cecil vs. Robo (CT): Isn't losing unless he runs out of MP, and Crisis Arm can make for some big pressure hits here.
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5): And more sleep.
Cecil vs. Lucienne (CTON): Has more tools to overwhelm a stall.
Cecil vs. Greg (WA5): Greg has a 3HKO here.

Odin 5-7 (Given the field, Middle does seem right.)
Isaac 4-8 (Feels like he lost some close ones? Dunno. The speed/durability combo is a problem.)
Cecil 1-11 (He on the other hand may not be Middle. Yikes.)

[Pyro]

Isaac vs. Alex (Lunar): Definitely tanks his big shot. Is faster and 2HKOs
Isaac vs. Ayame (S3): Techs ignore evade and such in CTON. OHKOs without being one-shotted?
Isaac vs. Alfina (G3): Tech gets around her special if she even gets a turn?
Isaac vs. Roxis (MK): OHKO
Isaac vs. Yulie (WA4): OHKO
Isaac vs. Ashley (WA2): I think Ashley is faster. That is really bad for Issac because he can just 2HKO probably.
Isaac vs. Aigis (P3): Issac's daggers seem pierce-y.
Isaac vs. Panne (FEA)
Isaac vs. Kanan (SN)
Isaac vs. Robo (CT): Robo isn't humanoid enough for Enmity to work. Without the extra damage Issac is likely stuck.
Isaac vs. Black Mage (FF5): Wishes he was fast.
Isaac vs. Lucienne (CTON): Goes first and kills his Stamina + damages him. He doesn't recover from that I don't think. While he does way more damage even with no stamina she is just too much more durable. Or she could just use Impale twice perhaps.
Isaac vs. Greg (WA5): Easy 2HKO + Survives the damage burst.

Comments: 5-7: Issac has problems with that whole not being fast thing. Kind of a big deal for glass canons.

Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar)
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3)
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3): Melee immunity?
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK): Better damage wins it?
Cecil vs. Yulie (WA4): Haste heal protect game.
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2): ID and I don't think Cecil can stop a Full Clip?
Cecil vs. Aigis (P3): I'm going to think that Pierce immunity zeroes out the benefit of the thunder arrows.
Cecil vs. Panne (FEA)
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN)
Cecil vs. Robo (CT): Meh-ish fighter is who Robo loves to fight.
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5): Cecil can't stop Sleep?
Cecil vs. Lucienne (CTON): TANK FIGHT. Lucienne has the advantage via killing his healing and having great durability to start with?
Cecil vs. Greg (WA5): Tankiness wins the day.

Comments: 2-10. Tough field for him.

[superaielman]

Cecil vs. Aigis (P3): Cecil had a lightning elemental weapon?

Thunder Arrows+Best storebought bow. It's pretty bad on damage granted.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Man, that gets into an interpretation flavor conflict. Arrows in P3 are pierced damage, which Aigis immunes. Have fun figuring which one wins out.

[SnowFire]

I'm still inclined to use one big set o' averages for Fates, so Odin is probably tougher (good!) but slower (bad!) compared to the full cast average.

Odin vs. Alex (Lunar)
Yeah no.
Odin vs. Ayame (S3)
The doubles.
Odin vs. Alfina (G3)
Paralysis turning off the counters.
Odin vs. Yulie (WA4)
Odin vs. Ashley (WA2)
I'll buy Full Clip hype here, sure.
Odin vs. Panne (FEA)
Surprising, but sure.  See Elf.
Odin vs. Robo (CT)
Odin vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Forgot that FF5 Sleep is apparently that good.
Odin vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Depends on how much the speed average changes w/ Birthright.  If Odin gets doubled by average then he might be toast, but I'll assume he narrowly escapes that fate for now.


Kevin is pretty dependent on Confuse or Mute working.  Usual reminder that Confuse isn't broken by damage so it's basically I-win if seen as working.  Also wants you to take a 50 CP interp which I might even be willing to accept since more voters seem to be leaning this way.

Kevin vs. Alex (Lunar) - Confuse.
Kevin vs. Ayame (S3) - Yellow Scarf, 2HKOs.
Kevin vs. Alfina (G3) - Both immune each other's game!  Kevin probably wants Haste -> 3HKO, dumping extra turns into healing to outlast Armageddon...  dunno.  100 CP means more shots of healing even if worse damage at least.  Depends on how good the stat-busting off Armageddon is I guess.
Kevin vs. Yulie (WA4)
I have to assume that the stat-bust Yulie takes for blocking both confuse & mute is significant...   they'll both Haste up but Kevin's healing is way worse AND less spammable.  However he can spam ID attempts backed by (crappy vs. magic tank Yulie) damage.  Huh, what are Yulie's stats after losing 12 levels?
Kevin vs. Ashley (WA2)
Confuse.
Kevin vs. Panne (FEA)
The rabbit hopes you see evasion as resisting status not resistance...  but even if you do, Kevin's got some physical evade vs. basic physicals himself, so he might evade one of Panne's attacks even if his first Confuse attempt misses.
Kevin vs. Robo (CT)
Robo MDef.
Kevin vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Mute.   (Not blocked, right?)
Kevin vs. Lucienne (CTON)
I'd see a Stamina bust as getting CP here, not MP.  Then Confuse.


Isaac...   a bit slow, .70 PDur (or .80 if he tanks his damage). .86 MDur / raw PCHP .99 if he tanks his damage, 20% evade against basic physicals.   1.04 PCHP damage vs. humans on turn 1, or 1.50 PCHP w/ the 2-turn setup.  Fails a lot more vs. non-humans.

Isaac vs. Alex (Lunar)
Isaac vs. Ayame (S3) - Sure, ITE hype.
Isaac vs. Alfina (G3)
Starts her paralysis-lock game first?  Unless CTON had a paralysis blocker?  CHecking Dhyer's stat-topic, I don't see what's anti-hypable on Alfina...  if she unloads 90 SP she apparently still KO's average, and vs. a full SP average she can keep her nonsense going longer even if against a higher average..
Isaac vs. Yulie (WA4)
Isaac vs. Ashley (WA2)
Ashley can't be OHKO'd, but Isaac can play this one slow and just attack turn 1 and not give Ashley that much FP...  I guess he can go for 40% ID twice in a row, but he certainly shouldn't survive Isaac's turn-2 build.  Isaac even can regen some HP on turn 1 to add insult here with his basic attack.  I guess DEFEND HYPE would help Ashley survive into Full Clip & outlast Isaac's 4 turns of awesome, which is kinda justified in Early Wyrm not being super-great for notable fights in-game, but eh.
Isaac vs. Panne (FEA)
Horrific bunny death.
Isaac vs. Robo (CT)
Hmm, Burst Attack is .77 PCHP while Early Wyrm is up.  THat's not enough to 2HKO Robo even if he doesn't heal in the middle, which he will.  Once Early Wyrm falls off it's LOL, for all that Robo will probably just kill Isaac first.
Isaac vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Isaac vs. Lucienne (CTON)
At worst, turtle strats, but probably not even needed.


Cecil vs. Alex (Lunar)
Cecil vs. Ayame (S3)
Cecil vs. Alfina (G3)
Cecil vs. Roxis (MK)
Cecil vs. Yulie (WA4)
Cecil vs. Ashley (WA2)
Cecil vs. Aigis (P3)
Cecil vs. Panne (FEA)
Cecil vs. Kanan (SN)
Cecil vs. Robo (CT)
Cecil vs. Black Mage (FF5)
Cecil vs. Lucienne (CTON)
Cecil vs. Greg (WA5)

Odin: 3-6
Kevin: 6-1-2
Isaac: 3-6
Cecil:?-?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Depends on how much the speed average changes w/ Birthright.  If Odin gets doubled by average then he might be toast, but I'll assume he narrowly escapes that fate for now.

For all that I disagree relatively strongly with holding Odin against an average that includes PCs he doesn't coexist with (well there's Revelation I guess, but Odin extra special hopes you don't consider that his legal form...)... I'll tell you right now that the Birthright speed average is 4 higher (warning: includes shuriken and katanas), HP is 3 points lower, Def is 2 points lower, Res 1 higher, damage is... calculated against different enemies! Against the same enemies, Birthright damage probably about a point or two lower. Take the middle point of those if you wish.

[SnowFire]

Thanks for the info.  (For all that I'd probably not double-count the characters shared by both.)

For what it's worth, since this is a "strong" disagreement, lots of other split-path characters that can't coexist get thrown into the same averages - for all that this is usually irrelevant (FE6/7/9/11 split-paths, SO2 mutually-exclusive characters, etc.).  The only direct analogue I can think of in games I played would be...  well Front Mission 3 has 2 characters in both paths, then 12 other characters who are divvied up by path, they never coexist, but Tide threw 'em into the same average (Which I'd approve of).  Pretty sure Dhyer's Soul Nomad topic averages takes into accounts Demon Path characters too (even in its non-generics option).  And there's more games which have an initial split, followed by them all teaming up at the very end - Suiko3, Mana Khemia 2, etc.  Revelation kind of feels similar to the "Team up at the end" thing, especially since it's vaguely canon-ish, so Odin at least *can* co-exist with everyone else.

Lastly, I suspect that while it's obviously annoying in-game, Revelations-Odin probably isn't THAT hosed in the DL?  Most importantly, grinding exists in Revelation, and pricing in even a little grinding would go a long way to helping him out.  But even for a 0-grind average, according to Serenes, Odin joins in C17 out of 28.  With how sharply XP is curved in Fates, I wouldn't be shocked if he was only a level or two behind by the end, for all that he might deserve some holistic punishment for taking so long to catch up.  Although to take your Saga Frontier topic as an example, I don't see an issue with using the "best" form as far as eventual level for each character, which wouldn't even render that an issue - everybody takes their best and throws it into one big blender at the end.

Anyway, I'm at least more willing to use Conquest-only or Birthright-only averages for exclusive-ish characters.  For the all-paths characters, they definitely get the full-cast average to me, since they have the same stats and growths and skills & all.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Pretty sure Dhyer's Soul Nomad topic averages takes into accounts Demon Path characters too (even in its non-generics option).

If it does it definitely should not! The Demon Path is aftergame. OR: see the reaction to Kanan in this very thread.

Otherwise, yeah, there's no "team up at the end" of Birthright or Conquest. Revelation is a third path, and one which requires a $20 DLC purchase at that. (Also, some characters don't have PC forms in Revelation anyway.) In general though it causes me too many headaches to even think of combining them. They have different equipment (which actually legitimately changes the worth of characters on each route, such as whether swords or lances have a 1-2 option, or shuriken being better than daggers, magical weapons as per Sakura discussion, etc.), they face different enemies (which affects scaling of damage for each), and more to the point they compete with different PCs. For a simple example, someone like say Niles deserves more credit for his speed than he would in a combined average, because in-game he doesn't actually have to worry about shuriken or katanas or indeed swordmasters and falcon knights running around; he'll double way more things than most, while a PC with similar listed speed in Birthright isn't as remarkable. And this should be reflected.

(If you give everyone access to the same equipment via online or whatever then admittedly some of this reasoning goes kaput, and yeah fair enough if you do. Of course I disagree with that relatively strongly as well...)