Author Topic: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1  (Read 2684 times)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2016, 03:22:04 PM »
I think I need to look at that match again more closely when I have time.

Meanwhile, more Lucia/Chris stuff: in order to see Chris OHKO Lucia with the Phoenix Rune, you need to see 11000 S2 boss HP = PCHP. That feels really high to me! Even if do the full, unmodified, "divide boss HP by PCs faced" thing (which Suikoden has always made a compelling case for not using) you still need to see damage average as 740+ for Chris to OHKO, which is possible but already a reasonably high number. If you do almost anything else, it's just not reasonable at all; e.g. by the "boss PCHP = average damage * 10" method, you'd need to see the damage average as 1100 which is... not impossible but way too twinked IMO, as that outdamages even most L4-5 spells.

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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #26 on: June 10, 2016, 03:15:31 AM »
Okay, if Killer Lance OHKOs, here is Yulie's strategy:

Killer
Yulie haste
Yulie heal
Killer
Yulie sacrifice
Yulie heal
Killer
Yulie heal (no double this turn)
Killer
Yulie sacrifice
Yulie heal
Killer
Yulie heal
Yulie sacrifice (KOs)

Kellam gets 5 crit chances off 21% crit each. I'd probably vote Kellam in this case, he has a 69% chance to win which is good enough for me.

If Killer Lance doesn't OHKO, things get much worse for Kellam. Yulie can use the same strategy as the above (tossing in Protect turn 2) except now it's.. mostly safe from criticals. If Kellam does critical, Yulie can use Material to fully heal.

Javelins are an interesting choice because they prevent Sacrifice and force Yulie to use ~10HKO (to Kellam) physicals instead. Of course she probably doubles with those, so... yeah 5HKO, and she doesn't really fear the javelin counters or the Gaia Hoop backlash (still heals after attacking, as she did with Sacrifice).

So yeah it mostly comes down to "is the FE13 kill point 90.75 or less". And I don't well know how I feel about that. If anyone has any feelings on accuracy and such things in kill points, I won't mind hearing arguments.

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Cmdr_King

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #27 on: June 13, 2016, 03:37:47 AM »
Godlike

Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) vs Lucia (Suikoden Series)
Velius (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Belial (Wild ARMs 4)
Ryu (Breath of Fire III) vs Citan Uzuki (Xenogears)
Endora (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Ominas Crow (Bravely Default)- No vote.


Heavy

Nina (Breath of Fire) vs Sharon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Ike (Fire Emblem Series) vs Tiamat (Final Fantasy)
Keith Valentine (Shadow Hearts) vs Maria Traydor (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Strago Magus (Final Fantasy VI) vs Auron (Final Fantasy X)


Middle

Pent (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Jessica Philomele (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis)
Kellam (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Yulie Ahtreide (Wild ARMs 4)- Probably.
Bowman Jean (Star Ocean: The Second Story) vs Bob (Suikoden II)
Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Melville (Suikoden III) vs Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Sanaki (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Banon (Final Fantasy VI)- Matches like this make me miss the old DL.  Back then we could get Grefter to make long form communistic manifestos for Banon based primarily on his epic beardage and him fighting the empress of a decadent and corrupted continent-spanning state would be so perfect.
Katarina (Suikoden IV) vs Selphie Tilmitt (Final Fantasy VIII)
Black Wizard (Final Fantasy) vs White Mage (Bravely Default)
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Luther Lansfeld

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2016, 07:23:09 AM »
Godlike

Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III) vs Lucia (Suikoden Series)
Velius (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Belial (Wild ARMs 4)
Ryu (Breath of Fire III) vs Citan Uzuki (Xenogears)
Endora (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen) vs Ominas Crow (Bravely Default)


Heavy

Nina (Breath of Fire) vs Sharon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)
Ike (Fire Emblem Series) vs Tiamat (Final Fantasy)
Keith Valentine (Shadow Hearts) vs Maria Traydor (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Strago Magus (Final Fantasy VI) vs Auron (Final Fantasy X)


Middle

Pent (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Jessica Philomele (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis)
Kellam (Fire Emblem: Awakening) vs Yulie Ahtreide (Wild ARMs 4)
Bowman Jean (Star Ocean: The Second Story) vs Bob (Suikoden II)
Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon) vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI)


Light

Melville (Suikoden III) vs Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)
Sanaki (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn) vs Banon (Final Fantasy VI)
Katarina (Suikoden IV) vs Selphie Tilmitt (Final Fantasy VIII)
Black Wizard (Final Fantasy) vs White Mage (Bravely Default)
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Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #29 on: June 15, 2016, 05:37:13 AM »
Oh, finishing up S2 topic, I realize that Bob versus Bowman comes down to respect for Bowman's healing. Transformed Bob was crazy defense and transforming gets a speed bonus...but if he can't kill Bowman in those 3 turns, then Bowman wins. I still think Bowman's extra HP takes it with this. Bob really hates healing. But if you laugh at Bowman's healing, Bob could take this.

Regarding Kellam and crit rates, I've obviously floated the idea of halving crit rates before (to deal with the fact that due to the nature of FE fights in game, damage via crits look much, much better in the DL and prorating crits rates makes them look a more reflective). I think that would likely really hurt Kellam in terms of aiming for a crit.

For Lucia, 11,000 HP being PC HP is about 733 average damage per PC which doesn't strike me as particularly crazy (but might need you to disregard some scrubs potentially).  Of course, Lucia loves something like a 3 turn average in Suikoden since the reality is that if you took in 6 Lightning Runes on characters with L4s, she'd basically die in a turn (but you won't be sustaining that damage over 3 turns. I've pondered dealing with damage maintenance before a 3 Turn average can tend to be soft on any bosses with sub PC HP, but a really durable boss can be effectively underrated since you might need to spend more turns using lower damage after reserves have been used up). I'd have to math it out, but Lucia is definitely someone who, IMO, deserves to having her HP judged pretty harshly.

I did bring up FF 9 just since I tend to feel that rules should generally be comparable across games and it seemed like double accessory not only went against reasons we tend to allow status blocking accessories in the first place given that the pendulum has swung a bit on terms of that (the purpose now to genearlly limit those based on single status strategies. Truth be told, maybe when I switch over fully to my new status view then I won't be allowing accessories at all...).
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #30 on: June 17, 2016, 12:57:34 AM »
6 lightning runes isn't in any way reflective of an actual Suikoden party, so I'm not sure what the point of bringing that up is. The fire rune offers less damage. Earth (once the Earthquakes are used up), wind, resurrection, and darkness do considerably less. Water has none at all. Most of the runes which boost physicals vary from moderately to extremely obscure (and Double Beat, the most obvious, doesn't stack with Falcon/Shrike/etc.) and you need to stack multiple on one PC (something a lot of PCs can't even do) to get anything close to 1000 damage.

I strongly disagree with any damage average which suggests that the L4 fire spell is below average damage in any Suikoden except perhaps 3 and 5, and those not by that much. Everyone has their own playstyles I guess, but that's not very reflective of my own experiences and those files of friends I've personally seen, etc.

I also generally disagree with the proposal to muddy the damage average to be harsher on bosses which are already fragile and generous to bosses which are already durable. The DL already makes raw HP differences on bosses matter more than they do in-game. (I've actually considered doing the exact reverse, bending all boss HP figures back towards average PC slightly, but decided it was a bit artificial.)

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2016, 01:18:00 AM »
I'm not saying I would take 6 Lighting Runes as standard, but just pointing out that setting 6 people up with a cheap, readily accessible, storebought for most of the game rune will basically allow you to one round Lucia (which is really, really, really sad considering you'll be coming in fully charged against her). As such, seeing her HP at a level where Phoenix Rune can OHKO her doesn't seem unreasonable to me at all (since that would put Fire's L4 decently above average still).

How do you see the DL as warping HP? Lucia looks significantly better taking a 3 turn average because you don't need 3 turns to kill her and your damage drops each turn. A durable boss who outlives your best damage will take more turns to kill (ignoring need for healing) than a 3 turn average would imply if they will definitely live more than 3 turns and you have a damage drop off at some point.
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2016, 01:31:21 AM »
Fire's L4 is 700 base. I guess it's more like 800 with magic factored in (ignoring affinity, if it wasn't obvious), but that's certainly pushing it to call that "decently above average" if you're confidently saying your average is higher than 733...

Re the second paragraph: in-game, a boss usually isn't significantly harder if it has 30k HP instead of 20k HP, but the DL will make a division difference out of that. In most games you have worthwhile healing so you can last a while against a boss if needed; the differences in their HP just don't matter as much in-game as they do in the DL. This does depend a bit on resources and such, but by and large it holds.

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Dhyerwolf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2016, 04:22:12 AM »
Sorry, I was thinking of the Rage Rune! I guess it really depends on what you look at in terms of a legal equips and runes to hold to bosses (and which PCs you would actually consider. By this point, I would consider that the team should be relatively competent in a some manner). While I tend to err against truly obscure stuff, things like S2 Rage or Thunder Rune would be considered to me.

I would say that for a decent boss, 1.5x HP could a massive difference. Lucia would definitely be much better in game with 50% more HP. If a boss has good tricks, giving them 50% more HP gives them extra time to overwhelm your healing or defensive setups. I think it all depends what else the boss is bringing (Lady with 50% more HP in game? Scary. Scrub boss with 500% more HP? Maybe not scary at all).
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Cmdr_King

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2016, 06:10:21 AM »
Godlike

Chris Lightfellow (Suikoden III)- iiii vs Lucia (Suikoden Series)- iiiii
Velius (Final Fantasy Tactics) vs Belial (Wild ARMs 4)- iiiiiiiii
Ryu (Breath of Fire III)- iiiiiiii vs Citan Uzuki (Xenogears)
Endora (Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen)- i vs Ominas Crow (Bravely Default)- iiiii


Heavy

Nina (Breath of Fire) vs Sharon (Legaia 2: Duel Saga)- iiiiiiii
Ike (Fire Emblem Series)- iiiiiii vs Tiamat (Final Fantasy)- i
Keith Valentine (Shadow Hearts)- iiiiiiiii vs Maria Traydor (Star Ocean: Till the End of Time)
Strago Magus (Final Fantasy VI)- iiiiiiiiii vs Auron (Final Fantasy X)


Middle

Pent (Fire Emblem: The Blazing Sword) vs Jessica Philomele (Mana Khemia: Alchemists of Al Revis)- iiiiiiii
Kellam (Fire Emblem: Awakening)- iii vs Yulie Ahtreide (Wild ARMs 4)- iiiii
Bowman Jean (Star Ocean: The Second Story)- iiiiiiii vs Bob (Suikoden II)- i
Melbu Frahma (Legend of Dragoon)- iiiiii vs Mog (Final Fantasy VI)- iii


Light

Melville (Suikoden III) vs Sheena (Tales of Symphonia)- iiiii
Sanaki (Fire Emblem: Radiant Dawn)- iiiiii vs Banon (Final Fantasy VI)- i
Katarina (Suikoden IV)- iiiiiiiii vs Selphie Tilmitt (Final Fantasy VIII)
Black Wizard (Final Fantasy) vs White Mage (Bravely Default)- iiiiiiiii
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Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2016, 07:28:45 AM »
See, Lady is very impressive, but honestly wouldn't be much more impressive with 50% more HP. She already has enough to withstand a quick blitz (barring some extreme setups), and she doesn't tax your resources (SH items are cheap and effective). So the only thing more HP would give her, really, is the chance you screw up at some point. Which is fair! I'm not debating it's an improvement, just as big of one as it would be in the DL. When I did my 2-person challenge of SH3, for instance, I'm sure I could have taken Lady x1.5 HP.

And obviously there are bosses like the Lufia 2 sinistrals for whom doubling their HP would accomplish absolutely zilch but would make a big deal in the DL. (In fact, Daos having good on-paper but in-game irrelevant durability is probably one of the impetuses for why I first considered this...)

Now, the main exceptions are bosses who legitimately ruin your resources or against whom stalling/healing is impossible or difficult (some Zeboyd bosses might qualify, but they kinda cheat because more durability is also more damage for them). But... in-game, you can heal/stall against almost all bosses. In the DL, once you're at the higher divisions, this is extremely difficult (and even in the lower divisions there is a large majority of the DL which uh doesn't heal), and if you're not healing/stalling against a boss, you reduce its damage and durability to being of equal value, where in-game damage is almost always of more value for actually making you lose. (Lucia would be improved more by 1.5x damage than she would be by 1.5x HP, and Lady x1.5 damge would be beyond brutal. And certainly someone like, say, Vinsfeld or Zog would be ridiculously better in-game if we halved their HP but doubled their damage.)

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #36 on: June 18, 2016, 06:14:54 PM »
A few quick comments:

1) On the original Kellam & FEA damage average issue.  I'm happy to vote up the likes of Lucina when she needs an Aether in 4 hits usually, while I seem to recall that Elf & Random are usually more skeptical.  So I'm definitely sticking by the no-accuracy average, but if you're strict enough on skill procs, I can maybe see using the accuracy-adjusted damage average.  (Braves making Awakening skill procs more frequent than other FEs & all.)

2) Re Dhyer, while in MOST FEs there's a good reason to be skeptical of Killer stratz since they're often overrated, I think Awakening Hard might be an exception.  Well...  Awakening if you're either not in a pair-up or skill / support isn't high enough to make the pair-up attack reliable.  Enemies have enough HP that two-rounding them with Silver is pretty chancy, both Killer & Silver can usually 3HKO, and Killer gives you the chance of one-rounding (and, better yet, one-rounding on the first attack to ignore the counter).  I certainly found Silver generally trash and used Killers instead for Awakening.  And, DL-wise, the introduction of storebought Braves at literally the last possible time makes Killers look way, way worse in the DL than Killers do in other FEs, such that they're only useful for the likes of killing frail healers like Yulie.  So basically the FE with one of the best Killers in-game when solo has some of the worst Killers in the DL.

3) Re Elf on rewarding bosses that are already durable...  okay, there's definitely something to old Tallychu-esque "screw super boss durability" arguments like taking the square root of their vanilla PCHP, but there are definitely times where this makes a lot of sense.  Bravely Default & Grandia 3 seem obvious examples: In BD, frail enemies like normals get REALLY frail since you can Brave-blitz them for free.  It's some constant amount you can chop off enemy HP which isn't relevant for tanky bosses but makes frail ones die extra-fast.  Something similar for unloading G3 Orbs on bosses or arguably similar one-shots in other games.  Heck, you can even throw non-one shots that you can nevertheless have charged up beforehand, e.g. FFX bosses if you have some charged overdrives or Trails bosses if you walk in with some S-Crafts, etc., but there the bosses can eat that damage again in a long fight, so I suppose it'd apply to the durable ones too.

4) Re Elf on boss scaling, no need to rehash the argument again, but boss scaling via party HP in Suikoden is a compelling argument for it if you're in favor :) .  Pretty much just a philosophical difference there: is a boss who requires 40 PCs to take down (Raid boss Onyxia, say) just by definition the biggest badass, even if it goes down in two rounds of offense?  Well..  maybe.  Totally an interp that says this boss is an awesome, and an interp that is more skeptical, and both are fine.  (Not to mention issues like Fire Emblem games, where you might technically have 12 PCs on the field, but the nature of FE combat makes it more like 12 separate 1v1s...)

I will say as a side note that to the extent that a bunch of the conversation above is about in-game effectiveness...  Safer Sephiroth with double HP but facing 6 FF7 PCs would be considerably weaker, and Lucia with half HP but facing 3 PCs would be considerably more dangerous.  Which is exactly why when Lucia fights you without your full party, the game designers made her a wimp.

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #37 on: June 18, 2016, 06:32:32 PM »
Philosophical differences, etc., but as far as I'm concerned a boss who is more difficult because they face fewer PCs is exactly the sort of thing which shouldn't translate to the DL. A solo boss with decent speed and 2HKO damage could easily be brutal as hell in-game but that doesn't mean they have good DL offence. They were just lucky enough to fight only one person. (Though, of course, I've always argued that your/Dhyer's/Pyro's view utterly implodes for solo bosses unless you make special exceptions for them, because they imply that the only reason to scale boss HP is the number of PCs they face and I strongly disagree with that assessment: we scale bosses because of allowances for their AI and restrictions placed on their opponents, e.g. no item use.)

And yeah if I'm going to appeal to popular opinion on boss HP, then I do think Suikoden has always been a good argument against your views, sorry! I mean, you take down Luca with 18 PCs. Even pro-rating much of that 18 into scrub territory, he gets pretty frail if you divide his HP by 18 (or even 12 if you assume the extra PCs are at half damage, say). Nobody intuitively takes him that way, Luca is generally seen as pretty durable, certainly not the sub-PC-even-after-damage-halving you'd get if you scale him with your views vs 12 PCs. Similarly, boss Yuber and Sarah (who are less durable than Lucia even, barring some support credit arguments and even then almost certainly still are) are not generally seen as ludicrously fragile except by, again, people like you and Dhyer who have adopted a certain mathematical view and decided to stick to that. (They're still seen as quite fragile, mind, but Dhyerviews would probably spit out like ~0.3 PCHP before any support credit, which I do think is getting a bit silly.)

Honestly the intuitive view for most probably lies somewhere in the middle (i.e. number of PCs is a factor, but not a proportional factor in boss HP), but oddly among people who have adopted more mathy views I don't think anybody does that except Sage, who doesn't really vote any more.

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SnowFire

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #38 on: June 18, 2016, 07:10:34 PM »
Well, I said I didn't want to rehash it, but!  You were just talking above about in-game effectiveness, which is fine, but the fact that hypothetical 6 PC, double HP Sephiroth is way, way better with no PC scaling and hypothetical 3 PC, half-HP Lucia is way, way worse is something about in-game that I'd like to translate to the DL.  We already translate things like different damage averages; why not translate cast size as well?

That said, to be sure, if you want to say that bosses should be scaled for both AI & party size, that's fine, I'm certainly skeptical of some of the DL-wonkiness that happens with a "perfect AI" assumption.  And yes, solo bosses are their own special pile of interp difficulties, which is weird since they hypothetically translate the absolute best of all bosses.  I certainly wouldn't complain about a "minimum scaling of 3 PCs, if there are more PCs then scale against that many" or the likes to reflect that even solo bosses get a boost in the DL.  A middle ground is certainly possible.

Luca I always assumed was 3 separate fights - 2 of which you don't even need to win - and the DL only takes 1 of those fights, so he'd "just" be scaled against 6 PCs.  That said, sure, for flavor reasons, Luca is one of the very rare bosses where they explicitly sell needing an army to take him down because he's such a badass!  Usually game logic wins out everywhere else, though, including most other Suikoden bosses, which are usually terribly frail in-game, and I'm fine with reflecting that in the DL.

Yuber has a PC form, so I always presume he got voted on that.  And his S3 boss form, while pretty fragile, also has a super-parry rate for inaccurate PCs, so he's not a complete pushover unless you've got great accuracy.  Sarah almost never got nominated to my recollection so I can't really comment.  (Rank Fake Chris with the MT OHKO Ice damage.)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #39 on: June 18, 2016, 07:26:09 PM »
Well if you take Luca as the final third of his HP against six PCs he'd still be very fragile, so it comes out to the same thing. Fair enough if you want to make a special flavour exception for him, though.

I think minimum 3 could work but some sort of soft cap in the other direction feels useful too. Especially since most bosses who face 7+ PCs have counters and the likes and just saying "well they die in 2 rounds lol" can grossly understate what they're capable of. But this is mostly exclusively Super Robot Wars territory now, maybe some Fire Emblem but you usually can't target a FE boss with that many people (still ties in with the idea that the intersection of "divide boss HP by number of PCs" on a countering boss has weird effects).

Yuber/Sarah are weird for a variety of reasons so don't get nommed too often (whether to vote on PC or boss is a big part of it), it was mostly the early DL days where they did (e.g. Sarah got ranked in Heavy, her PC form is Light). So they're not really a perfect example anyway. Honestly it's hard to come up with good examples here; I could cite Seed/Culgan but support credit arguments makes their HP murky anyway, Gorudo faces two PCs, S3 has no other bosses, only S1 boss who has gotten matches is Neclord and I can't recall a match which hinged on his specific HP, S4 (and Tierkreis) has only four PCs anyway, S5 bosses are garbage.

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Tide

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Re: RPGDL 2016 Season 2, Week 1
« Reply #40 on: June 19, 2016, 05:26:06 AM »
Lady's kind of a weird case because her durability already isn't bad. Compare her to the last boss who is Gilbert. Lady has 7200 HP, and is one of the few bosses who may heal, giving her a theoretical maximum of 7920. Gilbert meanwhile has 4700 HP. So Lady already has 50% more HP than Gilbert and she's only a few trees behind him! If you look at their attacks, they aren't terribly different but I think most people had more trouble with Lady than they did Gilbert.

Yet at the same time, improving Lady's HP by 50% would pretty much cut out most blitzes. Speedrun wise for example, you would probably need to get a second Fifth Key for sure. Even then, she would probably still wreck you because you just run out of time by running out of Replacement Men. She would certainly be tougher in this case than having 50% more damage. Lady with 50% more damage on the other hand wouldn't change much at all since she already pretty much kills everyone when she gets a chance. You can pretty much use the same strat to take her down without issue.



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