Proving Grounds Interm - L/M - I promise not to pull a Super! I hope.

[Tide]

See the H/G topic for raison d'etre

Duelers in this pool:
Towa Herschel (CS2) - The completely adorable, capable student president/acting Captain. Sadly, plot powers don't translate
Fengalon (WA3) - Awful defenses and low damage but amazing agility based stats to the rescue?
Tatan'ka (SH3) - Causes more game overs in speedruns than anything
Melia (XBC) - All the damage but no durability whatsoever
Mirdyn Walhorn (TO:PSP) - Flip side! Tanky, can stall but probably wishes he had more damage.

Towa Herschel vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Towa Herschel vs. Ryudo
Towa Herschel vs. Clive Winslett
Towa Herschel vs. Sceptile
Towa Herschel vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Towa Herschel vs. Barret Wallace
Towa Herschel vs. Yangus
Towa Herschel vs. Miakis

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Fengalon vs. Ryudo
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett
Fengalon vs. Sceptile
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace
Fengalon vs. Yangus
Fengalon vs. Miakis

Tatan'ka vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett
Tatan'ka vs. Sceptile
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace
Tatan'ka vs. Yangus
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis

Melia vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Melia vs. Ryudo
Melia vs. Clive Winslett
Melia vs. Sceptile
Melia vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Melia vs. Barret Wallace
Melia vs. Yangus
Melia vs. Miakis

Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Ryudo
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Clive Winslett
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Sceptile
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Barret Wallace
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yangus
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Miakis

[SnowFire]

Usual disclaimer: No P4, but not a lot of matches, so screw it, I'll vote Yosuke anyway.  And no CS2 either, but since Tide made such a fine topic, sure whynot off theory + some CS1.

Towa Herschel vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Towa is slow and Yosuke can go fishing for crits with Brave Blade or maybe even random status (If P4 has a status that CS doesn't), and Brave Blade barely 2HKOs I think which puts massive pressure on Towa's EP pool, she's only got 9 heals.  If the P4 damage average is seen as higher, she's got a chance off Petrify maybe, but I doubt it.
Towa Herschel vs. Ryudo
Well this is basically the perfect opponent for Towa, someone who runs out of gas and only 3HKOs.  Her silly healing -> Energy Rain stall start just might work here after all, as long as she aggressively heals when a Ryudo double is near.  Throw Hydro Cannons at his face otherwise.
Towa Herschel vs. Clive Winslett
Clive is constantly 2HKOing, but is somehow slower.  A high TB speed floor means I don't think Towa is getting the doubles to actually win here rather than be heal-locked.
Towa Herschel vs. Sceptile
EARTH and WATER damage vs. GRASS.  Giga Drain ends any hope Towa has of winning ever.
Towa Herschel vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Another 2HKO, although Alexia is slower...  I don't think Towa gets enough doubles before running out of EP anyway, and Alexia is getting mildly faster as the fight goes on.
Towa Herschel vs. Barret Wallace
FF7 blocks petrify, but Barret's damage is kinda trashy (at least in the stat topic assumption of no materia)...  Towa might actually pull this one out.  Barret might get to Mindblow her once, but she can Energy Rain and not die immediately, so Barret needs to angle more for Angermax, which isn't happening vs. an S-Craft. 
Towa Herschel vs. Yangus
Yangus when ID is blocked is kinda sad.
Towa Herschel vs. Miakis
Miakis has too much pressure here I suspect with erratic damage and her own occasional healing and probably some element-blocking nonsense.


For Fengalon, is Sonic Scratch *only* a counterattack, or is it usable normally as well?

For my votes, obligatory warning that I see all that WA3 boss damage as worse.  The fact that WA3 bosses lose half their damage if you durdle around healing and doing nothing is pretty terrible, and while I might be willing to let them have their damage if assuming a very optimized spending of FP in the damage average, I don't do that.  I cap TB speed pretty tightly too, so...  this is gonna be rough.  Fengalon looks like he's sporting ~1.1 PCHP in durability.

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Magic damage & healing.
Fengalon vs. Ryudo
G2 techs ignore evade?
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett
Kills with a single Lock-On at 50 FP it seems, or even sooner if he gets a lucky hit.
Fengalon vs. Sceptile
Magic damage.
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Alexia is very accurate and Fengalon gives her so much time due to having to re-cast his evasion buff.  EDIT: But sure, Fengalon being able to use Sonic Screech, or hyping ALexia Wind weakness, might turn it.
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace
Angermax.  (I don't normally hype L3 limits as even possible but I might make an exception here.  I think Barret might have had a 255 Accuracy weapon anyway.)
Fengalon vs. Yangus
Well if Fengalon can win a single match it's this one, depends on if Yangus's stuff was ITE or not.
Fengalon vs. Miakis
Miakis's healing is pretty effective here against the mighty starts-a-4HKO-and-gets-much-worse game, I think S5 crits were ITE if nothing else.  EDIT: apparently not.

Tatanka is listed as High Middle, and solo boss scaling plot applies, and I dunno about hyping tech ring perfects for boss scaling which pushes the damage average down some, sooooo that's kinda rough in an L/M pool.  Yosuke (and MAYBE Miakis) might outheal here but he's winning any "fair" slugfest.  Sceptile additionally gets set on fire by Red Nova.  Guesssing a 7-1 with only Yosuke winning unless Miakis's Shield Rune healing or block rate is better than I recall, but I'll hold off actual analysis.


Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yosuke Hanamura
3HKOs first with wind magic.  That might be a 4HKO if Mirdyn spams some healing, but I'm not sure that gets him to Rending Gale either.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Ryudo
Outtanks.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Clive Winslett
Outtanks, walks into Rending Gale.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Sceptile
This is actually kinda interesting.  Sceptile's draining is not real inspiring here, and his damage is weak enough that a healing strat might plausibly survive to 100 TP.  Maybe later.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Outtanks, Rending Gale, etc.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Barret Wallace
TO doesn't block ID I think, so this is a match where Mirdyn doesn't want to attack after a certain point.  Luckily for him TP builds naturally so he'll eventually RG even if Barret stops attacking.  Also usual wrong defense note.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yangus
ID.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Miakis
More of that outtanking.  I think S5 crits might have been ITD too, but not sure it matters enough.

Towa: 3-5
Fengalon: 3-5? 
Tatanka: 7-1?
Mirdyn: 5-2-1

[Pyro]

Towa Herschel vs. Yosuke Hanamura: She can't put pressure on him. Especially with his evade.
Towa Herschel vs. Ryudo: Healing, freeze status.
Towa Herschel vs. Clive Winslett: Freeze status and healing.
Towa Herschel vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: Alexia is slow enough where Towa can pull this out. The Freeze/Petrify odds help along with the healing/regen. Alexia doesn't like healers much due to the speed and lack of ways around it.
Towa Herschel vs. Barret Wallace: Limit Avoidance is a thing the CS2 cast does rather well.
Towa Herschel vs. Yangus: ID immunity.
Towa Herschel vs. Miakis: Miakis has a 3HKO? And she isn't all *that* fast. So Towa can grind away at status odds. Towa's own threat of an S-Break means Miakis has to heal too...

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura: Magic damage!
Fengalon vs. Ryudo: ITE.
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett: Lock-On!
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: Alexia can get one good thwack in but that's it?
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace: Limit!
Fengalon vs. Yangus: Don't think he is a good enough slugger...
Fengalon vs. Miakis: The evade game gets her good.... really need to figure out Suikoden runes.

Tatan'ka vs. Yosuke Hanamura: Evade and damage.
Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo: Slugging
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett: Isn't quite 2-rounded and 2HKOs?
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: 2HKOs first I think...
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace: Limit dodge.
Tatan'ka vs. Yangus: Slugging.
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis: Slugging.

[SnowFire]

I suspect Towa will kill Alexia before Freeze kicks in, if she's getting that many turns to throw damage at her!  Her damage isn't THAT horrible. 

For Towa / Miakis, the problem is that Miakis's damage is spiky & random.  Also S5 has a universal status halver in a game that has a freeze status, although I'm not 100% sure there isn't some wackiness where Yellow Scarves only get SOME statuses, or freeze doesn't count as enough of a status.

Note that Tide said in chat that Sonic Screech is usable "normally" by Fengalon which helps a little, although not much for my bottom-of-the-barrel WA3 boss respect.  Might help him take out Alexia & Ryudo at least.

[Random Consonant]

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Wow does Fengalon seriously not resist/immune wind?  Suppose it doesn't matter, Sonic Scratch off of that speed is going to be a problem.
Fengalon vs. Ryudo - Even if I gave G2 techs a free pass against non-failure types of evasion, I'm doubting he 2HKOs.  Not that I see him getting even that far.
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett - If I doubted Ryudo's ability to 2HKO here, I'm not sure how 50 FP Lock-on OHKOs?
Fengalon vs. Sceptile - Think Sceptile does take this one though.  Hi-Speed Ripper hitting a weakness makes this dicier... but I don't think that+Sonic Scratch 2HKOs and I don't think he 3-2s Sceptile, and for the record I'm not sure how I feel about wind = flying.
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - She gets one swing and can't win with it before he crushes her with the insane turnsplit and buffed evasion.
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace - e2: my mistake then
Fengalon vs. Miakis - UH.

Tatan'ka vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Solo boss HP disrespect is go.
Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo - Faster, 2HKOs, not wrecked by a double.
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett - Probably OHKOs with Lock-On
Tatan'ka vs. Sceptile - Faster again.
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Initiative OHKO
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace - Uh probably.
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis - Uh probably.

Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Yeah Mirdyn doesn't have much of a plan here.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Ryudo - Oh look, a Grandia 2 Middle.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Clive Winslett - Nope.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Sceptile - Well this would almost be interesting if not for either Agility or Overgrow
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Yep.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Barret Wallace - Poke once, healstall until Rending Gale (or just healstall until Rending Gale if that's enough by itself)
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Miakis

[Tide]

Towa Herschel vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Snowfire's argument works yeah. Brave Blade 2HKO is a big problem. Towa does eventually get a break since Yosuke has to stop and heal himself (lest he run into a range where she can S-craft him), but he's generally faster and if he's putting on pressure forcing her to heal that often, the only break she gets is to restore her own EP. So she has no offensive pressure whatsoever.
Towa Herschel vs. Ryudo - Outresources him handily. As Snow once put it, Ryudo gets owned by 5 charges of 45% healing. What do you think happens when he runs into someone who has theoretically infinite healing?
Towa Herschel vs. Clive Winslett - This is close. Towa's sluggish, but Clive being slower gives her a chance through Petrify/Freezing. Good thing too, since if he hits 100 FP, he has a guarantee OHKO with Gatling. It's close enough as is.
Towa Herschel vs. Sceptile - Sceptile is way too fast, and Towa's only shot relies on flavor arguments to inflict Freeze/Petrify which if you're like Snowfire, Lum Berries exist. No.
Towa Herschel vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Think she just wins the slugfest. Status shouldn't be an issue (since Alexia can Status Lock) but there will be enough damage since Alexia is so slow after First Strike and Towa has healing.
Towa Herschel vs. Barret Wallace - Well Barret can't block Freeze, so eventually that hits, then she blitzes past him.
Towa Herschel vs. Yangus - Towa blocks ID and now Yangus is a sad panda.
Towa Herschel vs. Miakis - Yeah, Towa's own S-craft means Miakis doesn't have a real free pass. Her own damage spikiness probably isn't helping since it gives Towa more chances to inflict something fatal.

6-2. 3 of the Middles were bad. But she works for what she is. A weaker staller than Elliot but can snag wins through a combination of her mixed status procing.

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura - I think Fengalon may be immune to Wind, but its impossible to tell since you have no magic at that point. However, he has INSPIRE and hits a P4G Weakness. This is like 10 shades of awful for Yosuke, even before the speed split.
Fengalon vs. Ryudo - Ryudo absolutely needs to 2HKO since I see Fengalon have a 3-2 here and I don't think he does. Even with Fengalon's trash tier defenses.
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett - Clive's close to being constantly double, but he should be able to take this with like 2 Lock Ons I think? It's close. He can't afford to Gatling since Fengalon has too much evade.
Fengalon vs. Sceptile - Sceptile's good speed helps prevent him from eating a nastier turn split. He should kill first as he has better damage.
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Unlike Clive who gets a second shot, Alexia only has one, which is a problem because after Turbulence, Fengalon's evade becomes unhittable.
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace - Gross mismatch
Fengalon vs. Yangus  - Yangus also of the bad SDs, so there's a nasty turnsplit and his offense is weaker than Clive AND Alexia's. Not good.
Fengalon vs. Miakis - Miakis wishes the Shield Rune had something damaging instead of Battle Oath and Great Blessing. Neither of those things help against Fengalon's speed/evade whoring.

6-2. So Fengalon is probably stronger than I give him credit for. Low Heavy is probably more accurate than being anywhere in Middle. But hey!

Tatan'ka vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Think he heal locks Yosuke with a physical. Yosuke does have a chance if Sukukaja can buy him enough time. However, I really don't respect Suku as much as others, so probably not.
Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo - Kneejerk. Ryudo needs more of something instead of being so utterly average.
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett - Think he OHKOs with a Gatling.
Tatan'ka vs. Sceptile - Sceptile's speed + Giga Drain gives Tatan'ka problems since he doesn't want to Double unless he can kill reliably. And the little bits of draining here and there doesn't help.
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Standard Alexia plan; 2HKOs first.
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace - Tatan'ka has no issue dodging limits. Barret no likely.
Tatan'ka vs. Yangus - Yangus is too slow part 3. Again, trading in Clive and Alexia's damage for basically status options is not a good trade and it shows.
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis -  Kneejerk.

5-3. Solo boss so YMMV on scaling. He's about 80% PCHP to me? But a burst damage option that does high 2HKO damage.

Melia vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Melia can't really set up a defensive wall due to Yosuke's mixed offense. She can try blitzing him down with her mixture of DoTs, but kneejerk is that she just doesn't like this battle.
Melia vs. Ryudo - Melia can set up some physical reduction to take the sting out of Ryudo's techs. This along with the healing from Aqua may be enough since Ryudo is so hampered by his lack of resources.
Melia vs. Clive Winslett - Clive OHKOs with a Gatling. Melia can delay the inevitable with Sleep, but since that gets broken by any sort of damage...
Melia vs. Sceptile - Oof. Melia hits 2 Weaknesses here. She probably sets the rest of her arts set to defensive to stall as long as possible since the DoTs stacking together doing double the damage is just X_X
Melia vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Initiative OHKO.
Melia vs. Barret Wallace - So, poison in FF7 doesn't raise the limit gauge. This is important since Melia has 3 flavors of it in 3 different elements once they are tacked on, she can just try outstalling until he dies.
Melia vs. Yangus - Setting up for Evade/Physical resistance makes Yangus a sad monkey. DoTs should outpace and secure the win otherwise.
Melia vs. Miakis - Kinda the same thing as Yangus except Miakis is faster and has healing. Battle Oath is interesting, but probably not enough?

5-3. Holy god, that durability is awful. Melia's tricks probably work in Middle, but yeah, Heavy is sort of out of the question.

Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yosuke Hanamura - Evade and magic damage are two things Mirdyn doesn't need in this fight. To make matters worse, Tentarafoo is also a legit concern.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Ryudo - Rule of thumb: Mirdyn tends to crush pure physicallers due to his tanking/healing even though the healing is shoddy. Ryudo runs out of steam and I'm not sure he even 4HKOs.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Clive Winslett - It's possible Clive will get to 100 FP, at which point, a 4 shot Gatling *might* do something. But getting there requires like 7 turns of pure attacking. That's way more than enough time for Mirdyn to reach a Rending Gale, which even Clive's good stats can't deal with.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Sceptile -  Mage and is also faster.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius - Alexia hits pretty reliably, but the slow start is just not something she likes against people who can heal as Pyro alluded to. First against Towa, and now against Mirdyn even though his healing is much worse. The inability to really punch through until Strong Heart becomes effective is too costly and nets her a Rending Gale in return.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Barret Wallace - Neither really want to hit each other, but Mirdyn does get about 12 TP a turn even for doing nothing. So he can afford to sit there and wait while Barret can't. And yeah if he needs to, he can poke once or twice, then just wait until Rending Gale to finish.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yangus - Unless I'm mistaken, Mirdyn has no way to deal with Instant Death. So Yangus procs Instant death by turn 3 at the latest. Good thing too or he will probably eat a Rending Gale.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Miakis - Standard Mirdyn gameplan. Miakis needs a much better boost than Battle Oath to really get anywhere.

5-3. Status holes aside, Mirdyn's tanks physicals like a champ. We talk about how FF4 Cecil hates that Paladin type build and would much prefer Dark Knight; Mirdyn is like a Paladin that doesn't suck essentially. Rending Gale + TO's low damage average helps quite a bit.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Fengalon nulls wind and lightning according to SI's guide.

Barret does not have a 255 hit weapon.

[DragonKnight Zero]

Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace  Low damage vs. FF7 Limit?  That's going to end well.  Counter damage still charges the Limit bar though if counter damage is what ends up pushing the Limit meter to full, the opponent will have a small window to maybe squeeze another action in.  Even with the speed mismatch, I feel it's too chancy to rely on.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Fengalon's around 1.35 durability I think, starting at Level 5 = Lock-On isn't used within the first three turns.

Fengalon vs. Ryudo: Ryudo of the dead average damage doesn't even 3HKO.
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett: Slightly closer in that Fengalon might actually need to be seen to double at some point... too bad I certainly do.
Fengalon vs. Sceptile: Has enough magic damage for this + not being doubled.
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: Alexia even has an effective 45% weakness to wind along with her 88 mdur, she gets wrecked pretty bad here.
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace: Sure, Ungarmax. Barret gets that at 68% damage taken to me.
Fengalon vs. Yangus: Is this as horribly unclose as I think it is?
Fengalon vs. Miakis: Evade game is a lockdown, Suikoden crits are not ITE (all critical hits are hits because hit is rolled first; this is true almost always in RPGs).

I'm gonna use the technical damage average for Tatan'ka because while I'm not sure about using Technical in general, it seems like a good-way to stand-in for the fact that doubles are not counted. This puts Tatan'ka at 0.48 PCHP for me. Good thing she has damage?

Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo: Faster, 2HKOs.
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett: OHKOs.
Tatan'ka vs. Sceptile: Sceptile misses the OHKO by a hair to me, so he probably gets one-rounded by a double the other way since part of it is fire.
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: OHKOs.
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace: Doesn't fear weaker Barret attacks and has great damage control, so can 2HKO without triggering a limit.
Tatan'ka vs. Yangus: Yangus is saved by his 25% fire resistance! Seriously. He 2HKOs, Tatan'ka will use three turns, but doubles must include a fire spell, and this costs Tatan'ka the 3HKO barely, due to Yangus's good HP.
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis: Fire immunity neuters the double, so Miakis can survive two turns if she needs to, but she 2HKOs anyway.

I can vote on two bosses and one PC, the best durability belongs to the PC, go figure. (Okay Fengalon has slightly more mdur.)

Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Ryudo: Physical durability.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Clive Winslett: See above.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Sceptile: Magic damage. Draining lets him avoid a 2HKO and smash from there.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius: Weirdly fighter-heavy field.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Barret Wallace: Sits there until he builds up TP for Rending Gale. If Barret attacks, he just heals in respose. He can remove Counterattack so as to not give Barret a limit that way, IIRC? Or was that locked in?
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Yangus: I see all this ID hype, but I doubt Yangus lives long enough for me. I doubt it's turn 2 against Mirdyn even if it is normally (and I doubt it is normally, to be frank), and Mirdyn can just kill with three physical attacks; his damage is pretty good that way.
Mirdyn Walhorn vs. Miakis: This field was way too fighter-heavy, which overrates Mirdyn some. But he's solid!

Mirdyn 6-1
Fengalon 5-2
Tatan'ka 2-5

[Cmdr_King]

Towa Herschel vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Towa Herschel vs. Ryudo
Towa Herschel vs. Clive Winslett- Kneejerk he can kill her on his second turn, before Freeze has a chance to kick in.
Towa Herschel vs. Sceptile
Towa Herschel vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Towa Herschel vs. Barret Wallace
Towa Herschel vs. Yangus
Towa Herschel vs. Miakis

6-2

Fengalon vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Fengalon vs. Ryudo
Fengalon vs. Clive Winslett
Fengalon vs. Sceptile
Fengalon vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Fengalon vs. Barret Wallace
Fengalon vs. Yangus
Fengalon vs. Miakis

7-1

Tatan'ka vs. Yosuke Hanamura
Tatan'ka vs. Ryudo
Tatan'ka vs. Clive Winslett
Tatan'ka vs. Sceptile
Tatan'ka vs. Alexia Lynn Elesius
Tatan'ka vs. Barret Wallace
Tatan'ka vs. Yangus
Tatan'ka vs. Miakis

1-7