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Author Topic: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART  (Read 1135 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« on: August 05, 2017, 10:16:37 PM »
Per the Heavy thread, don't really expect most people to be able to vote on all 5, hence overloading a tad.

Guy (Lufia II) - DL control.  Slugger with a weird IP healing game.
Janus-C1 (Wild Arms 3) - Janus's human form at the end of C1.  Pretends to be an FE character with counterattacks, but sports boss immunities.
Yusuke Kitagawa (Persona 5) - Anti-physical with High Counter & Sukukaja dodginess, and has a gun status game!  Pity about the questionable damage & status vulnerability.  Will he be a Fox, or an Inari?
Elise (FE Fates) - Corrin fangirl #1 can dish out the pain, but can't take it.
Millium Orion (Trails of Cold Steel) - Child Secret Agent!  With Earth nodes, though, ew.  Has some weird tricks compromised by questionable stats.

Guy vs. Yulie (WA4)
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Guy vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Guy vs. Aila (S3)
Guy vs. Koromaru (P3)
Guy vs. Cecil (FF4)
Guy vs. Aelia (VP)
Guy vs. Emeralda (XG)
Guy vs. Henry (FE13)
Guy vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Guy vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Guy vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)


Janus vs. Yulie (WA4)
Janus vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Janus vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Janus vs. Aila (S3)
Janus vs. Koromaru (P3)
Janus vs. Cecil (FF4)
Janus vs. Aelia (VP)
Janus vs. Emeralda (XG)
Janus vs. Henry (FE13)
Janus vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Janus vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Janus vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Janus vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)


Yusuke vs. Yulie (WA4)
Yusuke vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Yusuke vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Yusuke vs. Aila (S3)
Yusuke vs. Koromaru (P3)
Yusuke vs. Cecil (FF4)
Yusuke vs. Aelia (VP)
Yusuke vs. Emeralda (XG)
Yusuke vs. Henry (FE13)
Yusuke vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Yusuke vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Yusuke vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Yusuke vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)


Elise vs. Yulie (WA4)
Elise vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Elise vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Elise vs. Aila (S3)
Elise vs. Koromaru (P3)
Elise vs. Cecil (FF4)
Elise vs. Aelia (VP)
Elise vs. Emeralda (XG)
Elise vs. Henry (FE13)
Elise vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Elise vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Elise vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Elise vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)


Millium vs. Yulie (WA4)
Millium vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Millium vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Millium vs. Aila (S3)
Millium vs. Koromaru (P3)
Millium vs. Cecil (FF4)
Millium vs. Aelia (VP)
Millium vs. Emeralda (XG)
Millium vs. Henry (FE13)
Millium vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Millium vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Millium vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Millium vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2017, 11:06:23 PM by SnowFire »

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2017, 11:07:52 PM »
Guy vs. Yulie (WA4)- Don't think Protect stops a OHKO from his limit and Guy's going to be putting a lot of pressure on her. It's possible she hastes/heals out of trouble but this is my kneejerk.
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4)- ID. Guy really hates ID.
Guy vs. Aila (S3)-Outlasts.
Guy vs. Cecil (FF4)- Runs Cecil out of resources pretty easily.  Guy can even block confuse arrows. -_-
Guy vs. Aelia (VP)- Smash.
Guy vs. Emeralda (XG)- Emmy is just so much faster. She should 3HKO no matter what and she's fast enough to get extra turns. Being so much more durable/damaging/fast at base gives her the edge over Yulie here.
Guy vs. Yangus (DQ8)- Should outrace Guy's damage? He might go second but it isn't like he's going to eat a 2HKO here.
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #2 on: August 06, 2017, 04:11:11 AM »
Guy vs. Yulie (WA4) - Yulie can go first, throw up Protect... and still either end up getting OHKO'd by Deadly Smash or just buffed Zirco Axe physicals.  This likely doesn't work out too well for her under my views.
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Faster, durable enough to have enough time to stick the ID.
Guy vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Faster, 2HKOs, not weak to water so Torrent won't OHKO him, and I'm not really feeling like digging through FAQs to see if Guy actually does have a 3x ice IP weapon.
Guy vs. Aila (S3) - Starting IP probably makes the difference here.
Guy vs. Koromaru (P3) - Faster, durable enough to have enough time to stick the ID.
Guy vs. Cecil (FF4) - Good grief.
Guy vs. Aelia (VP) - Proooobably.
Guy vs. Emeralda (XG) - Yeesh Emmy straight-up doubleturns to me, nothing's helping Guy against that.
Guy vs. Henry (FE13) - Have some death!
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Good grief, Snow's almost surely right here, to make matters worse Slaking can probably troll Guy into wasting IP with ENCORE but I don't think that's needed.
Guy vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - Kneejerk for CS1 Emma being kind of bad.  Any arts that would be useful here resolve after Guy acts (bad when you're 2HKO'd which Emma surely is here, also depending on SD respect Guy may well be faster anyways) and Guy immunes her one real trick in confuse to boot (not that CS1 confuse is a total lock here either).
Guy vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III) - Faster, durable enough to have enough time to stick the ID.

4-8, Slow limit-reliant dueler with average damage outside of limits is not really great, no, even with starting guage as a courtesy.

Janus vs. Yulie (WA4) - I'll buy Yulie haste/healing her way out of this one.
Janus vs. Ershin (BoF4) - ugh ershin damage
Janus vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Not with damage that poor to start, Janus.
Janus vs. Aila (S3)
Janus vs. Koromaru (P3) - While I don't take heal berry counters as the functional magic immunity it is in game it still makes Koro's damage rather ungood, and I don't think P3's far more comprehensive evasion does enough to make up for that.
Janus vs. Cecil (FF4) - ugh cecil damage
Janus vs. Aelia (VP) - Should outslug
Janus vs. Emeralda (XG)
Janus vs. Henry (FE13) - Can't counter counters can you.  To be clear I don't think this is -quite that- open and shut since Janus can Multiblast around counters (...not that he does much damage with them since MT doesn't double) but Waste will still outdo Heal Berry counters and Janus doesn't really like Vengence much, so I doubt Janus will actually manage to pull off doubled Rising Nova.
Janus vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Janus vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - Emma damage is entirely magical and likely relies heavily on sluggish-charging arts in CS1, this is horrible.
Janus vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III)

4-8, more or less the same boat as Guy, only instead of slow he has half average damage outside of Rising Nova.  At least he counters though?!

Well I'm like a month late on this but whatever, bored.

Quick lowdown on how I see P5's cast: no Endure hype, no overleveled itemizations, yes to Strength 10 bonus with a limit of 5 or so levels, yes to skill inheritance on special fusions, possible yes to lolshitsune but no Hassou Tobi (seriously not even High Arcana Burst gets it there), pretty strongly tempted to FE killer weapon clause Auto-Taru stuff, protests about average cheating be damned.  Turn speed hype is pretty questionable but at least that's irrelevent as far as Inari is concerned.

Yusuke vs. Yulie (WA4) - Yeah Yulie can't really do anything about shock and she can't really do anything about getting Brave Blade'd
Yusuke vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Yusuke doesn't really deal with duelers like Ershin
Yusuke vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Well.  Going by the "fair, no Auto-Taru" average in the stat topic Yusuke does barely 2HKO Moor Gault first but that average is probably deflated a touch due to no Strength 10/inheritance nonsense and while I don't really care to work up the effort required to determine -how much- I'm going to assume that it's enough to push Bufudyne x2 below the 1.06 PCHP needed.
Yusuke vs. Aila (S3) - Yeah sketchy as Yellow Scarves are in S3 for status blocking coverage it still reins in what Yusuke can do.
Yusuke vs. Koromaru (P3) - Inari luck probably makes Mudoon turn 2 to boot
Yusuke vs. Cecil (FF4) - Cecil just looks at Yusuke's gameplan and goes cool story bro.
Yusuke vs. Aelia (VP) - Uh probably, if Aelia lands a hit Inari is in deep.
Yusuke vs. Emeralda (XG) - Probably just outslugs him.
Yusuke vs. Henry (FE13) - I don't see FE counters as similar enough to P5 Counter/High Counter to ruin the gun status game but uh that's where the good news for Yusuke ends.
Yusuke vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Yeah not really.
Yusuke vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - Yeah Emma can't really prevent Yusuke from getting off two Brave Blades.
Yusuke vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III) - Yikes.

2-10.  Poor Inari.

Elise vs. Yulie (WA4) - Yulie mdef after Protect, also Elise pdef.
Elise vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Ershin physical damage is pretty bad, may not even 2HKO Elise, not that it matters, she's faster and just two-rounds anyways.
Elise vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - e: wait I'm dumb and Fimbulvetr is C rank in Fates and Elise goes first.
Elise vs. Aila (S3) - Kneejerk is that Aila can't really afford a turn not under Vengeful Child.
Elise vs. Koromaru (P3) - uh not with P3 basic physicals you're not.  Maybe if I respected Koro AGI enough to see him doubling people who (barely) double average but ahaha giving P3 AGI that level of respect.  It's possible Koro could Sukukaja out of this with Maragidyne but iunno, P3 Sukukaja seemed pretty impotent.
Elise vs. Cecil (FF4) - FF4 elemental defense a bit much for Elise to deal with at a guess.
Elise vs. Aelia (VP) - Aelia even enjoys WTA here that is gross.
Elise vs. Emeralda (XG) - Well Emmy probably doesn't OHKO Elise!  She just doubles her instead.
Elise vs. Henry (FE13) - Tomebreaker causes some rather fierce accuracy issues here, think that's too much.
Elise vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Probably just OHKOs her
Elise vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - Tricky buisness.  In theory, Mirage gives Elise fits and Emma avoids counters with like everything.  In practice, I dunno, ATS-based physicals/crafts run into CS1's normal evasion just fine so I'm not terribly inclined to view it favorably against standard FE tomes which feel rather similar (magic in FE2/15 sure fine since those don't check the game's normal evasion, maybe Sephiran/Ashera long range/AoE stuff as well).  This is somewhat arbitrary admittedly but I don't feel like rewarding a rather unimpressive MQ property (arts-using enemies are somewhat rare) by letting it cover something that feels rather not nearly similar enough to what it actually covers.  And while this would be academic if Emma went first or wasn't one-rounded (Elise hates... rather a lot of Emma's skill set), the terrible speed/HP combo sink her.  (Unless magic attack actually does mean all ATS-based damage instead of just actual arts, in which case Elise is totally and completely wrecked but that's not the impression I was given from talking to Tide or looking through jp wikis.)
Elise vs. Ellen (Romancing Saga III) - Tiger Break is ITD, go figure.  That said Ellen uh still goes first and 2HKOs Elise, isn't 2HKO'd back, and may well not be doubled.  Not that the last part particularly matters, Tiger Break ignores counters.

5-7, Elise curses missing the 2HKO to average with all her might considering the Lucius-level pdur.  She also curses mildly above average speed people who keep her from doubling.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 12:49:32 AM by Random Consonant »

Tide

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 04:07:25 AM »
Janus vs. Yulie (WA4) - Where you see Janus' durability is pretty important since it determines when he can drop Rising Novas, pretty much a phase all Middles want to avoid. I think Yulie has this though. It's a little tight, but she should be able to double after Quicken and with Protect, Janus' attacks scares nothing. At which point, she builds up enough damage and waits on a double to Phys + Sacrifice and blows through Rising Nova phase.
Janus vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Similar durability but Moor Gault's damage doesn't suck at the start of the gate and also 33% Counterattack threat.
Janus vs. Koromaru (P3) - Koro has to use P3 physicals for this and unfortunately for him, like half of Janus' skillset gives no shits about Evade.
Janus vs. Cecil (FF4) - Man, Cecil. Mocks pre-50% phase but has no answer once Janus starts popping those Rising Novas out.
Janus vs. Aelia (VP) - Aeila clears the Rising Nova threshold with energy saving. So its really a question of whether or not her regular physical chains can put Janus into a KOable position beforehand. Kneejerk is that she should be able to since even with the counters, she should get 2 chains in then a killer chain with PWS.
Janus vs. Emeralda (XG) - Did Emmy have healing? Unlike Aeila, I'm not sure she has the durability for this. Kneejerk is that Janus' pelts eventually add up here.
Janus vs. Henry (FE13) - Waste and Nos create some big problems. Like when you 6HKO dudes, any sort of healing causes healing. And when the guy hits even harder than you and also has a similar limit, it really creates big problems.
Janus vs. Yangus (DQ8) - Janus like 7-8HKOs or something. My guess is that Yangus wants to tension up and then smack Janus with a really powerful hit to hopefully OHKO. He loses speed pretty badly. though so kneejerk is that he doesn't have the time here.
Janus vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Truant so doesn't matter here at all since Slaking outstats Janus pretty badly. Like Snow alludes to below, I'm not sure 2x Rising Nova even scares him.
Janus vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - I think this is the same issue with Yangus. Emma has no issue bypassing Rising Nova, but she's quite slow and can't heal, so those 6HKO pelts really start to add up.


Elise vs. Yulie (WA4)
Elise vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Elise vs. Koromaru (P3)
Elise vs. Cecil (FF4)
Elise vs. Aelia (VP)
Elise vs. Emeralda (XG)
Elise vs. Henry (FE13)
Elise vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Elise vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Elise vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)

Millium vs. Yulie (WA4) - Resist Earth and Quicken would seal this EXCEPT for two things: 1) Yulie can't block Faint 2) She can't use Sacrifice for fear of S-crafts. These two things create big big problems here because not only will she be understated to block petrify, but if she gets hit with Faint, the fight is basically over. And since she can't speed up the kill quickly, Millie's HP Regen is going to heal up the damage she deals. Meanwhile, the faint procs just looms ever the closer
Millium vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Uh, weird fight. They have about the same speed, but I tiebreak in favor for Millie since CTB speed > TB speed. Not sure if it matters, because Millie's first move here is probably Saintly Force, followed by a second casting after. By the time Moor Gault can strike Millie, she already has a 50% boost to speed, attack and defense. So now all of a sudden, those 2HKO physical hits are morelike 3-4HKOs and Millie is now faster, so she can pop up Regen, use her Ultimate Barrier or whatever, which kind stops Moor Gault dead. Okay, what if he went Magical? He probably still has the 2HKO, but the Regen cast and fast Earth recovery create issues, and Millie doesn't need to necessarily *attack* - she can use a turn casting another spell to get another Regen tick off. Feels like a losing battle.
Millium vs. Koromaru (P3) - Koro goes magic here since Saintly Force buffing and Millie's crafts means going physical is just asking to be trolled. By raw numbers I think he has this. He's significantly faster and even though he loses one turn to the Magic Barrier, she can't win the damage race before he 3HKOs.
Millium vs. Cecil (FF4) - I'm not sure how Cecil deals with Millie's REGEN >_>. This is so sad.
Millium vs. Aelia (VP) - Kneejerk that Millie can turtle her way out of this. Use lower tier spells for fast recovery and put up her barriers when the PWS turn is coming. Even if Aeila tries to counter stall, she's at a disadvantage here since Millie has access to Regen.
Millium vs. Emeralda (XG) - Christ that speed split. Emmy pretty much constantly doubles Millium >_<
Millium vs. Henry (FE13) - Nos and Ruin pretty much means Millie has to go on the offense here. I doubt she has time for her tanking game with Regen. Missing a tier 4 or tier 5 cast is going to be a big deal as well since that's a lot of damage she's losing and has difficulty making up.
Millium vs. Yangus (DQ8) - Millie pretty much laps Yangus after Saintly Force sillyness and with no magic, he's ramming into barriers pretty much hardcore. Oh, he also can't block Petrify, which is an actual problem here.
Millium vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Millie wins this one thanks to the added effect on her spells. Slaking can run Amensia to stop the magic damage, Encore to force Millie to burn EP on things she doesn't want and Counter for WIFOM games if she ever decides to go physical, but they all get stopped by NEEDLE SHOOT'S 20% petrification chance. Worse yet, Truant only helps Millie with the statusing out and Slaking can't stop it (no Safeguard or other status protection).
Millium vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel) - Emma is bad against anyone with a decent enough physical. The Saintly Force buffing is something she really doesn't like since it also means she can't really stop the 200 CP S-craft and the regen gives her problems.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 04:56:26 AM by Tide »
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Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 10:51:07 PM »
Guy vs. Yulie Ahtreide (WA4) - Yulie struggles a fair deal with limit fighters of this type. Guy can troll her all day long with his healing IP and still gain ground to unleash something capable of OHKOing her ass.
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Ershin, on the other hand, is built pretty well to handle the likes of Guy. Faster, tankier, gets enough time to drop something like five Deaths while denying Guy any IP gauge building.
Guy vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Faster, 2HKOs. Not a pretty sight.
Guy vs. Aila (S3) - Well, Aila has a pretty elaborate game plan here: open with Clay Guardian to improve her sustainability a bit, fish for a Battle Oath proc, alternate heals and buffs in the meantime and start pressuring once Battle Oath's up and ready. She only 3HKOs Guy post-Berserk, but her stun rate is solid enough and, coupled with the speed split (even with her physical's she's above average speed and her buffs are openly fast), she could conceivably get a lucky streak, and she has decent enough evade to pose a further threat to Guy. Problem is sustainability, though: I don't know how long either Clay Guardian or Berserk last... but I feel Guy's pressure outside of IPs is lacking enough for this to work well enough, and he can't block the random stuns along with only getting 50% healing. I feel Flying Ax shenanigans won't work, since, once Aila starts 3HKOing, he just gives up way too much sustainable weapon damage, and Aila damage be spiky enough for him to try to be conservative on heals (and he -has- to run Tough Hide healing to boot). Could definitely be argued, not an open-and-shut fight here.
Guy vs. Koromaru (P3) - Similar ballpark to Ershin here: Koro is faster enough to see a 5-4 and may not even need it because the evade buys him an extra turn most likely. Guy's really bad against fatal status.
Guy vs. Cecil Harvey (FF4) - Guy and Cecil don their prettiest atire and wigs to re-enact SO2 Rena vs. PS2 Amy in impressively pathetic fashion. Guy's likely pulling off fully buffed Deadly SmashES here, that's just sad.
Guy vs. Aelia (VP) - Drops Guy dead by her third turn. Guy does -not- have the offense to stop that from happening ever.
Guy vs. Emeralda Kasim (XG) - Emeralda's so much faster and only misses a 3HKO on Guy if he doesn't run his cheap IP healing armor... at which point he may as well admit defeat, because he ain't 2HKOing her either.
Guy vs. Henry (FE13) - ^_^
Guy vs. Yangus (DQ8) - Man. Guy really sucks against instant death, even inaccurate, even slower.
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - EDIT: Nevermind, Slack Off gives Guy FITS.
Guy vs. Ellen Carson (Romancing Saga III) - Ellen has multiple ways to win this. Tiger Break pressure causes serious problems here, by her fourth turn she starts 2HKOing him straight and she may well win the fight on her first double. Alternatively, she runs Dimension Chop, which is likely safer? Anyways.

2-10. Damn, Guy has some issues. This is a good Middle pool, but man, NEB's so right about the slow tank with averagish damage build being kinda bad. IPs keep him from Light, but don't really let him make lots of waves in the higher divisions.

Janus Cascade vs. Yulie Ahtreide (WA4) - Janus' damage is just so -awful-. Since his durability is pretty much PC-level to boot, he ultimately can't properly pressure Yulie and he can't even KO her with Rising Nova+counter if she's under Protect. I dunno how I see his Rising Nova access as, but I might well just make him roll the dice as he does in-game, since it's pretty closely tied to his mechanics. Which obviously doesn't help against Yulie much.
Janus Cascade vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Ershin's "noteworthy" damage is all magical, which, regardless of how I view Janus' Heal Berry counters, spells bad news for her and Janus is considerably faster. He's likely to get a couple Rising Novas this way, sealing the deal.
Janus Cascade vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Dat 2HKO physical.
Janus Cascade vs. Aila (S3) - Aila fishes for Berserk, heals up if necessary and 2HKOs Janus' ass once Battle Oath procs. Evil Ashley seriously doesn't like buff/heal games, even one as sketchy as Aila's.
Janus Cascade vs. Koromaru (P3) - First fight in which the scaling on Heal Berry matters... or does it? Koro physical offense ain't good enough to outslug Janus with those counters, especially once Rising Nova becomes relevant... and then, Heal Berry spam, even if not scaled to magical immunity in practice, should -at least- slow down Koro's offense to the point where Rising Nova spam becomes a thing, which makes the whole thing kinda ugly. Janus is so bizarre a slugger.
Janus Cascade vs. Cecil Harvey (FF4) - Absolutely awful. Janus indeed can't make damage stick against Cecil at high HP, but... he's actually not that much better off until he's one hit away from death. Janus effectively 5HKOs Cecil until the first Rising Nova... which is pretty terrible, at high HP Cecil just alternates Cura and thwacks and likely goes in for the kill once he hits 50% HP. If Janus lands two consecutive Rising Novas, Cecil's kinda screwed, but I'm not sure I buy that happening on average anyway. Dear god.
Janus Cascade vs. Aelia (VP) - Aelia should live to her third turn and blow him up. There's the odd chance she -doesn't-, but ramming into decent evade on the non-Rising Nova thwacks doesn't help Janus' case.
Janus Cascade vs. Emeralda Kasim (XG) - Same deal as Aelia.
Janus Cascade vs. Henry (FE13) - Henry just parks in front of Janus and 2HKOs with Waste counters. So bad.
Janus Cascade vs. Yangus (DQ8) - Yangus offense not very good and Janus outspeeds him by a lot. So yeah.
Janus Cascade vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Janus 12HKOs Slaking when Rising Nova isn't an issue. He could just trollspam Yawn until 10% HP and OHKO with FLAIL if he wanted. This said, Janus can't outslug even with Truant and Rising Nova x2 + counter, which would be his wet dream, so Slaking just Slashes twice and goes for a stroll.
Janus Cascade vs. Ellen Carson (Romancing Saga III) - Ellen opens with War Cry, Tiger Breaks twice, collects victoly. On average, Janus doesn't even get to land a Rising Nova... which may well not KO her ANYWAY because a single Tiger Break staves away a 2HKO threat by itself, and it just keeps stacking.

3-9. Janus tries to be deceptive about his slugging power by adding up his pelts with counters and that RNG game with Rising Nova, but it just doesn't pan out in practice all that well, does it? Decent speed, but PC HP, reliant entirely on physicals and 7HKO damage and an unreliable limit... yeah, that's bad. Not sure how I feel about Healing Berry spoiling, either.

Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Yulie Ahtreide (WA4) - One of those cases in which shock vulnerability spoils a dueller. Even if Yulie gets a turn to Protect, it may not be enough and she doesn't have the punch to keep him from tossing a Brave Blade, since Yusuke's faster.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Ershin (BoF4) - Inari's very poorly built to deal with Ershin - instant death and status resistance along with massive physical durability? All those things he hates.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Moor Gault (WA3) - Eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeew. Moor Gault wins pretty much as soon as he lands a hit on Yusuke... which, granted, may not happen soon enough, since he's slower and that DEF is simply awful... but I have my doubts it's enough to 2HKO Moor, and he should land his FIRE damage turn two to boot. That's pretty much death.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Aila (S3) - Aila: heals status. Blocks Dizzy/Shock. Heals HP. Um yeah, that's not going to work out, Inari.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Koromaru (P3) - Shock isn't helpful, dizzy isn't turn one and Koro wins once an Agidyne connects. Inari falls flat on his ass again.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Cecil Harvey (FF4) - Cecil immunes at least -two- of Inari's relevant status options and can heal off Brave Blades. Not a winning recipe.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Aelia (VP) - Aelia immunes Curse (VP's Blind equivalent), doesn't she? And she also immunes paralysis... um. Bad.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Emeralda Kasim (XG) - Doesn't Emmy even have fire damage in one of her money techs? This is ugly as hell.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Henry (FE13) - Good lord. Inari also hates the counters and Bolganone wrecks him a new one. IF you see each bullet triggering a counter (there's a precedent in-game, since Counter/High Counter trigger against individual shots and interrupt the turn), the status route is a complete wash, since he only gets to fire one bullet per turn.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Yangus (DQ8) - Dizzy should reduce the ID below turn 2 -for sure- (it's ID attached to a physical, after all) and Inari himself 2HKOs Yangus under Dizzy. So at least he's not getting completely swept.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Slaking (Pokemon) - Slaking just opens with Slash and then devotes his turns to Slack Off if Inari attempts the status game. That durability is a really tall mountain for Yusuke to climb.
Yusuke Kitagawa vs. Ellen Carson (Romancing Saga III) - Ellen's ID is turn two against Yusuke. Ellen effectively 2HKOs if he uses Brave Blade at any point in the fight. Ellen is faster. The ID doesn't care about Dizzy. And Ellen can even spam shoddy healing to mitigate the damage to some degree if she gets dizzied. Inari's just screwed.

2-10. He's an Inari. Man, Yusuke's problems are worse than I thought. Hates healing, hates 3HKOs faster than he is, hates status, hates life. This pool's pretty solid, but I dunno, he bit it to clearly underwhelming Middles like Aila and Cecil. One of the fights he won was pretty much via status spoiling and the other honestly wouldn't be out of place in Light - where he probably actually does belong, even if performing pretty damn well.
« Last Edit: August 28, 2017, 07:53:03 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2017, 07:56:02 AM »
I clearly made it so that I could vote on too many matches in this set.  Rest of Millium later.


Guy v. Aila seems the exciting fight of that set.  Suiko3 damage CAN be spiky, so maybe, but it's also gonna have to be pretty lucky to force heals out, so not sure I buy that hype.

Guy vs. Yulie (WA4)
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Guy vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Guy vs. Aila (S3)
Guy vs. Cecil (FF4)
Guy vs. Aelia (VP)
Guy vs. Emeralda (XG)
Guy vs. Henry (FE13)
Guy vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
How does Slack Off help here?  Encore might do the trick but I dunno how much hype I have for letting Slaking run it as part of a default set.  Seems like this'll go to Struggle.
EDIT: Guy's Tough Hide healing game gets beaten by Slash spam, per Elf?  Fail.
Guy vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Guy is slow enough that the Saintly Force buffing plan works wonders here.  Buff, damage, damage + S-Craft for the kill.  Guy can stall using healing, maybe, but I think Emma can still kill with Phantom Phobia rather than Claimoh Solarion, so he risks stat debuffs ruining his day before Emma runs out of EP.  Still, distressingly close, if Emma needed to use Claimoh she probably has major EP problems.



Janus vs. Yulie (WA4)
Janus vs. Ershin (BoF4)
I should double-check Ershin's physical game, but yeaaah.
Janus vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Janus vs. Aila (S3)
Janus vs. Cecil (FF4)
Close, but Cecil's damage isn't THAT bad...  I hope...
Janus vs. Aelia (VP)
Perversely enough, Janus might want LESS HP respect in this fight.
Janus vs. Emeralda (XG)
Janus vs. Henry (FE13)
Janus vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Sure, this is the kind of slugfest Janus does well in.
Janus vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Janus vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
I dunno.  Emma has excellent damage control for bypassing Rising Nova and her durability isn't THAT horrible, and her speed gets more fixable after even a single casting of Saintly Force.  This is really more about Janus's durability than his damage, as a frail-but-damaging Janus will lose while a tanky-and-weak Janus should win, so those Heal Berry counters are important... just...  I suspect that Emma can do something dopey like 2x Saintly Force, chip-smash-Zodiac Rain.  That's eating ~4-5 Janus hits or so, but that might still be survivable.



Yusuke vs. Yulie (WA4)
I'll buy the Shock -> kill plan.
Yusuke vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Tanks are not Yusuke's preferred opponent.
Yusuke vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
That HP / def on Moory is indeed garbage.  I think even Yusuke's anemic damage can 2HKO here just by going all out with Brave Blades and relying on an Evade Fire on turn 1.
Yusuke vs. Aila (S3)
I'm not sure I really see SMT Shock or Freeze as blockable by your vanilla all-status blocker (resistance to them is quite rare in-game), buuut it may not matter.  Aila buffs her defense, and Yusuke is very sad.
Yusuke vs. Cecil (FF4)
Bufudyne isn't taking this one.
Yusuke vs. Aelia (VP)
Well, evasion DOES screw up VP gauge-building to my recollection, as would High Counter, so this isn't quite open & shut.  The problem is that going all out risks dying to random spear-thwacks, but using Bufudyne risks not killing fast enough even with the evasion stalling off Aelia's killer turn a bit.  OTOH, you might see a High Counter proc as instantly ending Aelia's turn similar to how it works with reflected Gunfire in P5.   Aelia is decently above average HP, so...  yeah.  Yusuke CAN win this one but he needs High Counter to trigger like 3x times, which is likely but not guaranteed over ~12 thwacks.
Yusuke vs. Emeralda (XG)
You know, spam physical damage is like the perfect matchup for Yusuke, except XG deathblows ignoring most evasion means he REALLY wants High Counter to proc.  She doesn't have a fire deathblow, thankfully, though.  XG has an okay argument for blocking Shock, though?  She might take this anyway.  Sigh.  This kind of matchup is Yusuke's wheelhouse in Middle, too, just no Shock + mostly no evasion is trouble.
Yusuke vs. Henry (FE13)
Yusuke can win, but it involves something like "equip for speed, do a doubled Brave Blade, dodge the Nosferatu counter."  Possible, but no.
Yusuke vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Evasion & High Counter mean Yangus is in trouble here.  Yusuke isn't SO incompetent at slugging as to get ID'd first.
Yusuke vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Too tanky.
Yusuke vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
I'd probably see Trails as blocking Shock, though it's arguable (maybe the Freeze blocker?).  That said, I dunno if it matters, Fox just BRave Blades her and then dares her to make her one turn count before BB'ing her again FTW.


Elise vs. Yulie (WA4)
They spoil each other, except one has healing.
Elise vs. Ershin (BoF4)
EDIT: Not sure why I voted Ershin here before...  she's not THAT tanky, nor is her physical game that existent.
Elise vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
If that physical damage isn't only-a-counterattack, RIP.
EDIT: But Elise hits weakness with Fimbulveter?  Even unforged is probably enough.  I don't think MG OHKOs.
Elise vs. Aila (S3)
Elise's kind of fight.
Elise vs. Cecil (FF4)
Ugh elemental lookup nonsense.  Can Cecil really block EVERYTHING Elise can throw?  Eh, abstain.  EDIT: Seems like enough.
Elise vs. Aelia (VP)
WTA might help for rare footage of Aelia winning without a PWS.
Elise vs. Emeralda (XG)
Elise vs. Henry (FE13)
Tomebreaker is a problem for the somewhat inaccurate Elise, sure.  Is it time for MAID HYPE?!  (no)
Elise vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Doubling & Counters.
Elise vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Doesn't OHKO, so eats 3x spells instead and loses.
Elise vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
Much as Elise is anti-magical, Emma is far more so, with a flat 75% chance to laugh off anything Elise tries, and Saintly Force buffing to stop the doubles.  (Too bad that her S-Craft is magical, but I doubt it matters enough.)


Millium vs. Yulie (WA4)
I'll buy the Faint hype.  I don't think Yulie even bothers blocking Petrify because she knows she has to win quick, so she's not horribly understated, but then a Saintly Force -> Regen -> Petrify attempt spam gives Yulie offense problems.
Millium vs. Ershin (BoF4)
Being tanky is good vs. Trails, but getting outsped / outstat'd after buffs is not.  Millium might run out of MP getting this win, but she gets it.
Millium vs. Moor Gault (WA3)
Yeah, buff game works well here.
Millium vs. Aila (S3)
Well, Faint is like the one status that CS doesn't block (they do block FREEZE hilariously enough).  That said, Aila is frail vs. a cast with S-Crafts, so Millium heal-locks with practically anything, especially after a single casting of Saintly Force.
Millium vs. Cecil (FF4)
Milium's offense has some trouble killing here, and maybe Cecil has some Earth-spoiling?  I doubt it though.
Millium vs. Aelia (VP)
Weird match.  Since reflective barriers do indeed reflect S-Crafts at you (ARGHHH), don't see any reason why they wouldn't get Aelia's, and if I'm allowing energy storing, I'm certainly not allowing Aelia to just stay at 100 energy, she's going to 0 even if she declines to PWS.  So yeah, Saintly Force, mage slugging, throw up a barrier before a PWS turn.
Millium vs. Emeralda (XG)
Tons of weak attacks in succession, just what Millium hates with her "I'll reflect your one big attack back at you" strat.
Millium vs. Henry (FE13)
Spells are asking for Tomebreaker, so it's fish for Faint procs time.  Enemy faint resistance tended to be pretty high IIRC, so yeah, leaning Henry here, he should be able to bust through Millium's regen with Vengeance'd Wastes.
Millium vs. Yangus (DQ8)
Blocks ID, is better slugger.
Millium vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
Shields vs. someone who skips every other turn.  But wait it gets worse; if Millium has any types, she's clearly a Steel / Fighting type (robot, lots of punches & stuff) which has type advantage on Normal.  Not that it's even needed here!
Millium vs. Emma (Trails of Cold Steel)
They both spam Saintly Force twice or else lose...   will regen really save the day here?  Emma's buffed spells *hurt*, and this is the shady spell regen, not Elliot's good regen.  Millium will eventually win thanks to no healing from Emma, but she can't really use her own spells here thanks to Emma's MEvade, and if she uses too many skills, she's giving up her S-Craft finisher.  Stall until 200 CP is a strat but not if Emma tinks to break the barrier, then unloads 2 Claimoh Solarises for horrific doom.

Guy: 3-8
Janus: 2-9
Yusuke: 4-7
Elise: 5-6
Millium: 8-3
« Last Edit: October 01, 2017, 12:56:22 AM by SnowFire »

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2017, 03:47:08 PM »
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon)
How does Slack Off help here?  Encore might do the trick but I dunno how much hype I have for letting Slaking run it as part of a default set.  Seems like this'll go to Struggle.

I was thinking mostly for stalling measures to make things more problematic for Guy, since RNG plays less to his favor there and extending the match benefits Slaking. HOWEVER, Encore is actually a match sealer and I didn't think of it (Slaking 2HKOs on average, Guy has zero damage control without IPs and can't use Tough Hide turn one, so he heals or dies on the first Slaking skipped turn). Also, we think very differently on how to deal with Pokémon skillsets, so I think this more solidifies my opinion on Slaking taking it.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2017, 04:01:08 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #7 on: August 31, 2017, 11:38:52 PM »
Edited in Millium votes above.  She did pretty well, 8-3.

Jo'ou: Yeah, I'll admit I'm not perfectly consistent on Pokemon moves.  My general kneejerk is to let them use either what SnowFire thinks is a good DL setup or what Meeple had as the default, or maybe even other reasonable general-purpose setups, but not allow full move choice.  The effect is that DL Pokemon sorta get 5-6 moves if it's not clear what their best setup is, but I'm really skeptical of letting Pokemon swap in very specific moves that will occasionally win matches but usually be dead weight - e.g. non-STAB attacks that are worse than a comparable STAB move but sometimes hit a big weakness, stuff like Sheer Cold which is normally bad but busts up some damageless healers, etc.  Encore on Slaking seems like it'd be a pick that would very rarely pay off, even if it does against Guy. 

Incidentally, on the P5-in-the-DL and Pokemon skills crossover topic, Haru will be interesting as she's the P5 character who is absolutely the most pressed for skill slots, having ~13 skills she'd like to set!  (From OK's set, she'd like One-shot Kill & Triple Down for sure, would like to have Fast Heal, and Amrita Drop / Evade Nuke would be very occasionally relevant to have as well.)  Not sure how much of a hardass I want to be on her...  maybe make her drop Psy Boost (her mage-slugging game isn't going to win very many matches, it's mostly useful as a way to win if guns are walled but she can counter-wall with *karns), and then give her both OSK & Triple Down (and thus effectively 9 skill slots) since it's not clear which is better.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #8 on: September 01, 2017, 04:19:57 AM »
I think Triple Down is easily the skill she wants to drop on average. One-Shot Kill's crit game is potentially really, really good on a DL setting (for pretty much the same reasons it's really good in-game). Basically, she one-rounds average if she crits with OSK (crit off 2HKO damage, deal 1.5x damage minimum on the follow-up. That's 1.26x PC HP!) and she crits turn two on average. If it didn't cost HP, it'd be her go-to slugging move no questions asked. As is, as I said, it's an interesting gamble and worth attempting if she can avoid being 3HKOed or is facing lower-end healers.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Middle: This is ART
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2017, 07:01:59 PM »
I don't do starting gauge for limits generally.

Slaking... honestly, should probably be allowed Hyper Beam (/Giga Impact in later pokemon gens). It's storebought IIRC and he makes uniquely good use of it due to how Truant works (plus STAB). It makes him definitely not a Middle, though, so I won't vote on it that way here.

Guy vs. Yulie (WA4): I think the consensus is wrong here, unless I'm missing something? Guy's 3x damage IP takes way too much of the bar to be useful against anyone who can limit-dodge ever (he needs to lose ~80% health), and even one Berserker buff doesn't let him OHKO. Meanwhile Yulie with Haste controls the fight to be able to heal + attack, or double attack as a finisher. Maaybe Guy could pull this off with Tough Hide but I doubt it.
Guy vs. Ershin (BoF4): Physical tanking + ID.
Guy vs. Moor Gault (WA3): Faster 2HKO.
Guy vs. Aila (S3): Guy 2HKOs through the buff, so Aila only wins on doubleturns; don't think she can heal enough times to pull that off.
Guy vs. Cecil (FF4): What is this, Tales of the Abyss surreal fanfiction?
Guy vs. Aelia (VP): Her third turn is very fatal and I'm not seeing Guy do anything to her in two turns.
Guy vs. Emeralda (XG): Better stats all around.
Guy vs. Henry (FE13): Probably.
Guy vs. Yangus (DQ8): Yeah, he's slower, but... turn 2 ID works.
Guy vs. Slaking (Pokemon): Not really seeing how Guy takes this even if Slaking does nothing but Slash. He only 4HKOs while Slaking 2HKOs back. Sure he can fall back on Tough Hide but (a) he doesn't get THAT many more turns than Slaking to abuse this with and (b) remember that it's not fully-efficient since it only heals 50%, not 100%, so Slaking will make progress (either on average or with crits, depending on how you take such things).

I'm just taking Janus' ability to use Rising Nova literally.

Janus vs. Yulie (WA4): Yeah it's not like Rising Nova OHKOs (or even 2HKOs combined with a counter) so hasted Yulie has a field day.
Janus vs. Ershin (BoF4): Ershin damage is too bad, yeah.
Janus vs. Moor Gault (WA3): More damage.
Janus vs. Aila (S3): The healing's good enough here. Rising Nova does 2HKO but by the time it's that likely Aila's probably one hit from winning.
Janus vs. Cecil (FF4): Close, but I think this is right. Frankly if Cecil can't win this he needs to downgrade to Light.
Janus vs. Aelia (VP): Dodges the worst of the limit phase, should survive before then even if she eats three weak attacks and one Rising Nova.
Janus vs. Emeralda (XG): Emmy just misses a 4-3 so Janus is getting 3 turns, so 5 weak hits + one Rising Nova? That's too much.
Janus vs. Henry (FE13): Probably.
Janus vs. Yangus (DQ8): Yangus isn't very good outside his ID.
Janus vs. Slaking (Pokemon): Encore to remove risk of Rising Nova, then win while Janus 12HKOs or something. (To Snowfire: FWIW I suspect Encore might belong on his default set, it seems more useful than Swagger at minimum.)

Elise vs. Yulie (WA4): Magic damage: not how you beat Yulie.
Elise vs. Ershin (BoF4): Elise doubles and does pretty ruinous damage, at WORST needing 3 rounds to win if Ershin goes barrier. Meanwhile status is a terrible idea against Elise res/luck and damage isn't cutting it.
Elise vs. Moor Gault (WA3): Fimbulvetr OHKOs easily (WA3 weakness is 3x). I think Moor Gault also OHKOs but it's slower.
Elise vs. Aila (S3): I think Elise barely doubles, to me. Aila goes first and can bring her to death's door but it's not enough.
Elise vs. Cecil (FF4): Cecil 2HKOs, and does so accurately enough. He has to withstand three Elise turns but with elemental bullshit he can. Hooray for 0.48 pdur giving Cecil some offence!
Elise vs. Aelia (VP): Isn't OHKOed. Aelia dies badly. EDIT: oh right weapon triangle. I... don't think this changes anything, Aelia still can't OHKO and triggers counters, plus Elise is faster. Elise loses some damage but since she's only C in tomes, not much. She's getting off 6 attacks before Aelia's second turn! (Straegist threat range is great and wins iniaitive tiebreaks for sure.)
Elise vs. Emeralda (XG): 2HKOs, and isn't doubled, so Elise just gets two spells off and that's not enough.
Elise vs. Henry (FE13): Tomebreaker is too much. Elise has mdur and doubling but still think Henry should take this, Waste 3HKOs and with her awful hit I don't think Elise can land two hits first except with Fire which doesn't 2HKO.
Elise vs. Yangus (DQ8): 2RKO.
Elise vs. Slaking (Pokemon): Slash OHKOs.

Elise 5-5. Seems fun enough in the division, the pdur (and not quite enough evade to cover it) is a problem. She can miss offensive thresholds easily but she can also just blow people up horribly.
Janus 3-7. Well I wouldn't vote on this form anyway, but it is probably his best...
Guy 2-8. Not actually good in the division, but probably has enough tricks to rise above his Light-level stat build.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.