Author Topic: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning  (Read 1133 times)

SnowFire

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Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« on: August 05, 2017, 10:10:40 PM »
Don't really expect most people to vote on everyone, hence 5 duelers which is a bit much.  Anyway, explosions await.

Red (SaGa Frontier) - DL control.  Is his phoenix genu-ine or fake?  Only time will tell.
Tamaris (Shadow Hearts 3) - Tide-bait sorta-DL control?  Killing holy babies in salt towers in South America.
Ann Takamaki (Persona 5) - Accurate sleep that once it lands causes you to take a zillion technical damage from a Concentrate'd Blazing Hell.  Packs auto-Sukukaja for dodginess and (probably?) has Endure.  Doesn't like enemy status-slingers though.
Alm (Fire Emblem Echoes) - Tanky, fast, deals a zillion damage at the cost of some HP that he'll regenerate anyway, counterattacks.
Jusis (Trails of Cold Steel II) - Powerful wind magic, some weak healing, and he really screws over physical fighters in multiple ways (perfect evade!  100% Seal!), but doesn't particularly like facing magically tanky mages.


Red vs. Tir (S1)
Red vs. Shania (SH3)
Red vs. Arcanist (BD)
Red vs. Levin (WAXF)
Red vs. Fang (FF13)
Red vs. Sync (TotA)
Red vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Red vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Red vs. Ninja (FFT)
Red vs. Nikki (MK)
Red vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Red vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Red vs. Nox (CoL)


Tamaris vs. Tir (S1)
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3)
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD)
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF)
Tamaris vs. Fang (FF13)
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA)
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT)
Tamaris vs. Nikki (MK)
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Tamaris vs. Nox (CoL)


Ann vs. Tir (S1)
Ann vs. Shania (SH3)
Ann vs. Arcanist (BD)
Ann vs. Levin (WAXF)
Ann vs. Fang (FF13)
Ann vs. Sync (TotA)
Ann vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Ann vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Ann vs. Ninja (FFT)
Ann vs. Nikki (MK)
Ann vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Ann vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Ann vs. Nox (CoL)


Alm vs. Tir (S1)
Alm vs. Shania (SH3)
Alm vs. Arcanist (BD)
Alm vs. Levin (WAXF)
Alm vs. Fang (FF13)
Alm vs. Sync (TotA)
Alm vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Alm vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Alm vs. Ninja (FFT)
Alm vs. Nikki (MK)
Alm vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Alm vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Alm vs. Nox (CoL)



Jusis vs. Tir (S1)
Jusis vs. Shania (SH3)
Jusis vs. Arcanist (BD)
Jusis vs. Levin (WAXF)
Jusis vs. Fang (FF13)
Jusis vs. Sync (TotA)
Jusis vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Jusis vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Jusis vs. Ninja (FFT)
Jusis vs. Nikki (MK)
Jusis vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Jusis vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Jusis vs. Nox (CoL)

Pyro

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #1 on: August 06, 2017, 06:27:37 PM »
Red vs. Tir (S1): Judgement OHKO?
Red vs. Shania (SH3): Should be able to turn it around on buffs/double.
Red vs. Arcanist (BD): OHKO?
Red vs. Levin (WAXF: I don't think Levin can beat the tankiness/damage with his accuracy woes.
Red vs. Fang (FF13): Immunity.
Red vs. Sync (TotA): Takes him with an MA?
Red vs. Hiro (Lunar2): Faster and more damaging?
Red vs. Blue Mage (FF5): status immunity/ opens with too much damage?
Red vs. Ninja (FFT): Even if Ninja is faster it probably doesn't 2HKO Alkaiser's 150% durability?
Red vs. Nikki (MK): Faster/ID immune?
Red vs. Sofia (DQ4): Speed/damage.
Red vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Red vs. Nox (CoL)


Tamaris vs. Tir (S1)
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3)
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD)
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF)
Tamaris vs. Fang (FF13)
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA)
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT)
Tamaris vs. Nikki (MK)
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Tamaris vs. Nox (CoL)


Ann vs. Tir (S1)
Ann vs. Shania (SH3)
Ann vs. Arcanist (BD)
Ann vs. Levin (WAXF)
Ann vs. Fang (FF13)
Ann vs. Sync (TotA)
Ann vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Ann vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Ann vs. Ninja (FFT)
Ann vs. Nikki (MK)
Ann vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Ann vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Ann vs. Nox (CoL)


Alm vs. Tir (S1)
Alm vs. Shania (SH3)
Alm vs. Arcanist (BD)
Alm vs. Levin (WAXF)
Alm vs. Fang (FF13)
Alm vs. Sync (TotA)
Alm vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Alm vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Alm vs. Ninja (FFT)
Alm vs. Nikki (MK)
Alm vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Alm vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Alm vs. Nox (CoL)



Jusis vs. Tir (S1): ID/OHKO?
Jusis vs. Shania (SH3): Once transformed and buffed she should be able to make it through? I am uncertain.
Jusis vs. Arcanist (BD): Lack of Blitzing comes into play here.
Jusis vs. Levin (WAXF): Seal is pretty brutal here.
Jusis vs. Fang (FF13): Status blockers?
Jusis vs. Sync (TotA): If ToCS2 folks are good at ONE THING it is damage control.
Jusis vs. Hiro (Lunar2): Block ID and Insight?
Jusis vs. Blue Mage (FF5): Status blocker and damage burst.
Jusis vs. Ninja (FFT): Insight?
Jusis vs. Nikki (MK)
Jusis vs. Sofia (DQ4): Timed Damage burst overwhelms healing.
Jusis vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Jusis vs. Nox (CoL)

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2017, 08:01:06 AM »
Red vs. Tir (S1): Faster, OHKOs, doesn't have to.
Red vs. Shania (SH3): Double buff+healing first turn, then control the fight from there.
Red vs. Arcanist (BD): Well Arcanist durability sure is a thing.
Red vs. Levin (WAXF): Tough. Probably Red, though... he can 2HKO with a sword tech + Re-Al which means he has access to Deflect to further up his evade for half the fight.
Red vs. Fang (FF13): Fang's best hope is to land Deprotect + Slow (Alkaiser doesn't block stat downs to my knowledge) then try to smash. But... don't think she laps fast enough for the 2HKO even then.
Red vs. Sync (TotA): Red going for Re-Al x2 is a kill but runs right into a Mystic Arte. Chip + Re-Al does 1.18 and I think I see Sync above that. Red's best hope is to try to chip with two weaker sword moves which don't trigger a MA, dodge some of what Sync does in the meantime, and win? And... yeah honestly that probably works, there's probably some combination of equipped swords and sword moves that lets this work.
Red vs. Hiro (Lunar2): Kind of a better version of the same thing, sadly.
Red vs. Blue Mage (FF5): Fast 2HKO, immunes the turn 1 stuff. Vampire invites a death by doubleturn, Mighty Guard doesn't tank a second hit.
Red vs. Ninja (FFT): Tanks two hits.
Red vs. Nikki (MK): Like Ninja, Nikki actually outspeeds Red, but can't 2HKO.
Red vs. Sofia (DQ4): Straightforward.
Red vs. Camilla (FE Fates): Camilla wants you to see Swordbreaker do something against unblockable attacks. I'm not sure how I feel about that at the moment, dunno if I want to give Red carte blanche here just because ITE is much more common in Saga.
Red vs. Nox (CoL): Huh, Nox is actally really physically tanky. To the point where she probably survives 5-6 Re-Als? Probably enough time to get off two of her water spells anyway, which should KO.

I'm treating Tamaris' more badass pure magic double as a limit I think, I only saw it once in my long challenge fight and Tide didn't see it at all. A limit might make sense. (Same with various other boss combo magic spells.)

Tamaris vs. Tir (S1): Oh man, Tir even does dark damage, gross.
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3): Quickdraw, if Tamaris goes first it wins. If Shania goes first she also probably one-shots? Alternatively buff to not die, survive whatever, drain from there, burst to avoid the KO. Tamaris' first-turn initiative is listed as quite bad though, so probably Shania.
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD): Oh god, more OHKO dark damage.
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF): I'm inclined to give this to Levin because Tamaris' speed is actually quite poor (not getting turns = recharge rate doesn't kick in), so Levin can afford a miss in there as long as it's not turn 1.
Tamaris vs. Fang (FF13): Fang's stuff isn't decisively turn 1.
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA): Better first turn speed doesn't really help Sync, while the bursty damage avoids a MA.
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2): Probably one-shots and isn't one-shot.
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5): Uhh. If Tamaris goes first it wins... unless it runs into a shield. If Blue Mage goes first he uses Mighty Guard to avoid any death, Tamaris can't even 2HKO with a double in there any more. Feel like the combined odds of a lucky shield block and a bad initiative roll is enough here, but I could be argued.
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT): Ninja can't take hits.
Tamaris vs. Nikki (MK): But Nikki can.
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4): Another quickdraw since Sofia HP not good enough, but Sofia is too slow.
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates): If Camilla doubles this is GG. Otherwise she's tanky enough that she probably just survives the double honestly.
Tamaris vs. Nox (CoL): Nox needs 3 turns to win, which means Tamaris gets 3-4 of its own, including a double. That's really close, since 4 is enough and 3 probably isn't. Actually... 4 might not be enough, Nox HP is pretty badass.

Initial view, subject to change, is that 1 FE2r AS = 4% average speed, a gap of > 2% speed = doubling time. So Alm is ~116% with Royal Sword, doubles those at 114 and is doubled by 118. etc. Of course Double Lion makes this mostly moot.

Alm vs. Tir (S1): Doubled Judgement oh god why.
Alm vs. Shania (SH3): Alm misses the OHKO, then eats double magic to the face.
Alm vs. Arcanist (BD): Well Alm does dodge magic sometimes and if Internment misses even once...
Alm vs. Levin (WAXF): Counters. Levin might... actually just want to go for Double Blast, but that doesn't KO, and Alm wins as soon as he gets a turn.
Alm vs. Fang (FF13): Pain is probably game over? And Alm's not particularly good on threat range (well except with Scendscale) so she should get it off. Actually she probably just tanks a turn anyway.
Alm vs. Sync (TotA): Chip, then apply Double Lion directly to face.
Alm vs. Hiro (Lunar2): Faster, Concussion Sword.
Alm vs. Blue Mage (FF5): Shields are annoying. Except... Alm's accurate enough to land two hits turn 1 here I think. There are some threat range arguments here which would give this back to Blue Mage... I really need to hammer out how I feel about those one day.
Alm vs. Ninja (FFT): OHKO.
Alm vs. Nikki (MK): 2HKOs, isn't 2HKOed.
Alm vs. Sofia (DQ4): Just misses the OHKO, but so what? Sofia can't OHKO back, and healing invites a crit. Maybe she could make something happen with sleep but I'm not inclined to hype that too much, it's shaky and again Alm has some MEvade.
Alm vs. Camilla (FE Fates): Their speed is basically the same, so no doubling by either system! Swordbreaker is too much; Double Lion doesn't offset that. Alm wants to pull out a bow and hit that flier weakness, I think...? Nah, that's way too weak, especially since I'm not inclined to let people forge their backup weapons given how limited resources are in Echoes.
Alm vs. Nox (CoL): Don't try to beat Nox with physicals? She probably OHKOs with her charged move.

Red 9-3 - Red's a lucky bastard, that 11th hour power makes him a damn scary dueller.
Alm 7-6 - Good damage and pdur, enough options to make some noise for sure.
Tamaris 5-8 - Hey look, a disc 2 solo SH3 boss which might not be Godlike.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Jo'ou Ranbu

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2017, 04:21:00 PM »
Red vs. Tir McDohl (S1) - lol ohko. Like it's necessary.
Red vs. Shania (SH3) - Dream Porter makes Shania pretty happy. Post-Sanlittobel, she has complete control of the fight.
Red vs. Arcanist (BD) - Arcanist OHKOs, of course, but Red OHKOs first.
Red vs. Levin Brenton (WAXF) - Levin is simply -awful- against evasion.
Red vs. Oerba Yun Fang (FF13) - Opening with Sentinel only delays the inevitable.
Red vs. Sync (TotA) - I have a bit less respect for Sync's HP than NEB, which doesn't help him.
Red vs. Hiro (Lunar2) - Better at the same thing.
Red vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Ew.
Red vs. Ninja (FFT) - Yep.
Red vs. Nicole Mimi Thitel (MK) - See Hiro. Nikki is faster first turn, but not from the second onwards and she can't avoid a 2HKO. She also can't 2HKO herself, so tough luck.
Red vs. Sofia (DQ4) - A doubleturn is death here, and Red's getting one sooner than later.
Red vs. Nox - Holy shit, Nox indeed is badass at taking physicals. About 4.52x PC HP, that's good enough to survive -five- Re-Als and almost tank the sixth. Which means she gets enough time to land two Sea Serpent's Kisses. Way to go.

9-3. Red's a scary as fuck slugger. Lucky motherbleeper.

Tamaris vs. Tir McDohl (S1) - Goes first, OHKOs.
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3) - Goes first, OHKOs.
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD) - Goes first, OHKOs. Sense a pattern?
Tamaris vs. Levin Brenton (WAXF) - Enemy with no notable evade and shoddy durability feels like Levin's dream match.
Tamaris vs. Oerba Yun Fang (FF13) - Yeah, Fang needs to get a second turn to actually mangle things that don't fear her status.
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA) - Sync's not damaging enough to KO Tamaris in his first turn, and he ain't getting a second.
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2) - EBO Hiro doesn't like having less damage against this kind of boss.
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Welp.
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT) - Ninja couldn't score the kill against Ann - unlikely he can manage this against Tamaris.
Tamaris vs. Nicole Mimi Thitel (MK) - Nikki, on the other hand...
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4) - Too bad about the speed, Sofia.
Tamaris vs. Nox - Sea Serpent's Kiss -does- manage a OHKO to me, which makes this pretty clearcut. Tamaris doesn't 2HKO even with the double.

5-7. Somewhat typical SH3 boss? Bad speed and durability do hold him down and he lacks match-winning tricks besides that quick OHKO... but I guess that doesn't matter that much.

Ann Takamaki vs. Tir McDohl (S1) - Lifts those fingertips and claims Ann's life.
Ann Takamaki vs. Shania (SH3) - Shania is faster and should one-round Ann without much fuss.
Ann Takamaki vs. Arcanist (BD) - One-rounds. Ann may dodge one Interment, but it's not enough, she gets 3HKOed.
Ann Takamaki vs. Levin Brenton (WAXF) - She should dodge well before dying, and that's very, very bad news. Even with Ann's underwhelming durability, Levin doesn't really have the offense to reliably finish her off due to that accuracy thing. She might even want to equip for LUC/AGI to crap on him a bit further here.
Ann Takamaki vs. Oerba Yun Fang (FF13) - Fang wants to run sleep resistance here... Ann resists Dizzy and immunes Sleep at the same time for a durability hit, but not enough to let Fang OHKO, which leads to turn one Brainwash... and Brainwash dismantles Sentinel. Since Fang's status also deal damage, they also have to face evade and decent status resistance, which don't help her odds... yeah, methinks this is enough, since one Concentrate'd Blazing Hell is death if Sentinel's not up. Another tricky fight, though.
Ann Takamaki vs. Sync (TotA) - Tricky fight! ON AVERAGE, Ann is able to survive Sync's second turn after Tarunda, which lets her heal, apply Concentrate and OHKO. She needs to dodge at least -one- hit out of Sync's chains, though, so it's not a guaranteed thing. Still, she should manage it if barely.
Ann Takamaki vs. Hiro (Lunar2) - Dark Sword.
Ann Takamaki vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Ann can't immune shock. Bad times.
Ann Takamaki vs. Ninja (FFT) - Ninja can't OHKO nor immune both Confuse and Sleep at once - and blocking even one puts him further away still from the KO. Yeah, Ann pretty much coasts here.
Ann Takamaki vs. Nicole Mimi Thitel (MK) - Nikki can't immune Brainwash and she has to block Sleep to even have a fighting chance. Blocking even makes somewhat of a case here, but Ann has -too many shots- to land the status in a single go. If not for the ID odds on Nikki's best damage, Ann could even play the same game as she did with Sync for another winning strat.
Ann Takamaki vs. Sofia (DQ4) - One of those fights where Ann actually makes use of her inaccurate status options. Sofia can't pressure Ann offensively at all due to Lightning halving and Sleep immunity. To make matters worse, Ann's actually -faster-. So, alternate healing and despair whip thwacks until victory comes, she can even cast Tarunda for added insult.
Ann Takamaki vs. Nox - Unintuitive, but I think this is right. Tarunda spoils the hell out of Nox and, if Ann's not faster first turn, she's -going- to be afterwards. Alternate healing, Tarunda and high-powered Blazing Hells and that's that, Ann should manage to win with two Concentrate'd Blazing Hells plus a third to close the deal. Not a -simple- fight, but I think she has this. This fight changes around if you see Nox hitting weakness, but I don't think I do, weaknesses aren't a thing against your PCs in-game and CoL Water is clearly WATER-like, not Ice-like the way Suikoden water is.

7-5. I'm actually sorta surprised by Ann's performance here. All of her strengths saw play in this pool (and it's definitely a strong one!) and so did her main shortcomings... though they actually don't wreck her nearly as bad as you'd think! She has a lot of ways to rig RNG to her favor and tide a fight around, and my kneejerk about her working both long and short fights competently panned out. The poor stat spread keeps Ann fair in the division rather than killing her worth, which is pretty cool. Fun little template here.
« Last Edit: August 08, 2017, 04:09:15 PM by Jo'ou Ranbu »
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Random Consonant

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2017, 11:53:35 PM »
Red vs. Tir (S1)
Red vs. Shania (SH3)
Red vs. Arcanist (BD)
Red vs. Levin (WAXF) - Levin against evade
Red vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Red vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Red vs. Ninja (FFT)
Red vs. Nikki (MK)
Red vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Red vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - I don't want to right now.
Red vs. Nox (CoL) - Nox is physically tanky indeed, will certainly have enough time to 2HKO

Tamaris vs. Tir (S1) - who was this guy again, oh right BabyRage, yeah Judgment OHKOs his ass.
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3) - Easy.
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD) - brave blitz
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF) - oh hey levin gets to do something
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT)
Tamaris vs. Nikki (MK)
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Tamaris vs. Nox (CoL)

Ann vs. Tir (S1) - Yeah not even Endure hype saves Ann here.
Ann vs. Shania (SH3) - Use the boost to get through.
Ann vs. Arcanist (BD) - Brave blitz 3HKO.
Ann vs. Levin (WAXF) - Yeah even evade as mild as Ann's gives Levin fits here.
Ann vs. Hiro (Lunar2) - Ann evade/luck probably makes it so Concussion Sword's ID is turn 3 and Triple Sword doesn't OHKO.  That's not gonna work out.
Ann vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Somewhere in there is something Ann can't deal with.
Ann vs. Ninja (FFT) - sure
Ann vs. Nikki (MK) - yep
Ann vs. Sofia (DQ4) - Man Sofia really does give Ann all the time in the world for Envy Chain's pitiful thwacks to proc despair.
Ann vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Goes first and shouldn't miss the one-rounding.
Ann vs. Nox (CoL) - Yeah while I could swear up and down that CoL Water had something ice-like in nature it sure as hell didn't belong to Nox so I'm on board with Snow's argument here.

In Jusis matches that I care to comment on uh Blue Mage should wreck Jusis unless I'm missing something?  Blue Mage can equip shields and Treasure Sword is perfectly evadeable which makes his chances of landing Freeze pretty bad.  Frog Song should be no worse than turn 2 meanwhile.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2017, 02:40:23 AM by Random Consonant »

Tide

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #5 on: August 08, 2017, 05:29:35 AM »
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3) - Both one round each other so its a quickdraw. See NEB more or less. Shania is below average but my personal experience suggests BabyRage has bad initiative which means she should get the win more often than not.
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF) - Think NEB is right about this as well! Levin will build CT overtime so as long as he isn't missing turn 1, he will get enough CT to lap BabyRage naturally and continue the cancel lock. What I think is also funny (but doesn't matter) is that BabyRage is vulnerable to BLOOD LOSS so Levin's gravity attack could possible speed this up to0.
Tamaris vs. Fang (FF13) - Don't think Fang really gets to see that second turn which she needs. BabyRage just wrecks her.
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA) - I'll like to note for the record that Sync DOES Resist Holy, which cuts into BabyRage's double. THAT being said, I also don't think it matters since I see Sync's durability as pretty awful. In theory, BabyRage can also chip first with Bright Oracle into the Double since respecting Sync as a whole is kinda lulzy forme.
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Mighty Guard + some sort of gravity cheese most likely. BabyRage can't stop this.
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT) - One rounds pretty cleanly.
Tamaris vs. Nikki (MK) - Can probably survive the double, which means she can freely punish him for it.
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Outslugs. See Nikki.

Jusis vs. Shania (SH3) - Shania is a hair faster (98% vs 97%), so she fuses, Slantitobell or whatever and Jusis is pretty screwed at that point. He could try doing Altair Cannon to reduce her magic power, but a Double Sun Flare into a physical is still going to hurt and he can't really outstall or win the damage race from this point.
Jusis vs. Levin (WAXF) - Levin's Wind Resist gives Jusis some issues, but Jusis' evade set up gives Levin bigger ones. All Jusis even needs is one turn, then Shining and its over. EDIT: Checking damage figures, Pyro has Levin doing about 70 damage with Blast to a 125 damage average. Don't see this as 3HKO here since Jusis has average M.Dur. Altair Cannon also has a side effect of dropping ATS by 25% which further decreases that and it 2HKOs. I'm not even sure if I give Levin access to the Falcon Baton, so yeah, feel pretty confident here.
Jusis vs. Fang (FF13) - Burping user Snowfire here. Seems legit.
Jusis vs. Sync (TotA) - Sync is essentially never seeing a MA here, due to Jusis's damage control and his evade shuts down the physical game.
Jusis vs. Blue Mage (FF5) - Any reason why Frog Song doesn't work here, user Snowfire? Jusis can't block transformation and it's highly accurate IIRC.
Jusis vs. Ninja (FFT) - Sets up for Evade and opens with S-craft for the guaranteed Seal. If Ninja gets a turn, he has to have Seal wear off and hit twice through the evade. If he *doesn't*, Jusis casts Shining and uh...GG 
Jusis vs. Nikki (MK) - Nikki has a shot but it like relies on a Quick proc and then 2 Bear Charges to hit through Jusis's evade. She's probably not getting that, which means Jusis will safely pull off a Shining. And so much of her skillset just hard rams into evade that after Shining, she's pretty much *Psyduck*
Jusis vs. Camilla (FE Fates) - Kneejerk. Jusis most likely OHKOs (christ, that damage hitting weakness?) and he can burst his S-craft out for the Seal proc  if need be, but Camilla does have an argument (Swordbreaker effecting hit, counters).
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 03:07:27 PM by Tide »
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2017, 07:35:50 AM »
Mostly stealing NeoDarkHolyTide for Tamaris, they know that fight better than...  possibly anyone else in the world...  barring a few other SH speedrunners, perhaps.

Tamaris vs. Tir (S1)
Tamaris vs. Shania (SH3)
Tamaris vs. Arcanist (BD)
Tamaris vs. Levin (WAXF)
Tamaris vs. Fang (FF13)
Tamaris vs. Sync (TotA)
Tamaris vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Tamaris vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Tamaris vs. Ninja (FFT)
Tamaris vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Tamaris vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Tamaris vs. Nox (CoL)


For now, assuming full Endure hype, which does indeed push Ann up to Low Godlike.  (I could be convinced otherwise if everyone starts disallowing it of course.)

Ann vs. Tir (S1)
Get overkilled or ID'd horribly, Sleep, collect victory.
EDIT: Tir is THAT tanky against element?  Wow.
Ann vs. Shania (SH3)
Tsk tsk, SH not having a sleep blocker.  Shania can buff rather than kill to make it vaguely possible to survive Ann's BH burst...?  That might actually work, buffed Shania is both fast and quite magically resistant, at least if subtractive defense is transformed into percentage defense, then wait for Sukukaja to expire, fish for an Ice hit, double hit to blow through Endure.  It's not a bad thought, except SH doesn't block Confuse/Brainwash either, so sad times.  (For everybody itemizing random old Personas from dungeon 1!)
Ann vs. Arcanist (BD)
Yeah, Sukukaja + Endure means Ann survives a match that should "spoil" her.
Ann vs. Levin (WAXF)
Auto-Sukukaja.
Ann vs. Fang (FF13)
Fang can't get Brainwash resistance?  RIP.
Ann vs. Sync (TotA)
Sukukaja keeps Ann afloat long enough to set up on Sync.  BH, Heal, Concentrate, Heal, BH for the win.
Ann vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Ayup.
Ann vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Okay, BM statuses Ann (I'm not sure I respect P5 having the sleep status blocker accessory...  I should check if you're able to buy multiples of that 80K gem, but a lot of other accessories sell out after a single purchase.  There's an armor that resists Sleep, but at a huge defense drop.), but does he have a fatal status like Petrify to use?  Granted, Old & Shock may force Ann to the backup Despair strat which takes awhile to kick in, but her own healing means she can potentially stall this one out.  I'll give it to Bluey anyway, but she might be able to steal this regardless.
Ann vs. Ninja (FFT)
Ann vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Ann vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Easy win for Ann given Endure hype.  If not, it's a coin-flip - Camilla KOs if both axe thwacks connect, but she's at weapon triangle disadvantage (well, if Ann is seen as a Red Tome user) and Ann has Sukukaja, so it's not clear if they will.
Ann vs. Nox (CoL)
If Nox is held to one part w/ support credit, yeah, Dormina (and Tarunda if necessary) wreck.
If Nox has all 3 parts...  less clear.  I think Blazing Hell might just straight up KO the Tentacles, depending on P5 damage average and CoL Expert vs. Casual.  If it does, she's fine, at worst all 3 taps connect and activate Endure, then she Dormina + heals and is good to go.  If BH doesn't KO the Tentacles, Ann needs to connect a good Tentarafoo I suspect and confuse at least 2/3 of the parts, and be given credit for even having Tentarafoo in her skillset (not really enough room).  So...  probably not.  I'll buy MT OHKO for now though, sure, although it's close.


Elf's votes on Alm look on point.  I'd see Alm a bit slower when translated to ATB, but only minorly so (~110% speed equivalence?).  Also, on Alm's magic dodge, it's a bit better than it looks due to the kind of spells enemies use - they're not Sages sporting 105 Hit Excaliburs, they're Arcanists tossing 70 Hit Mires around and the like, so ~20 MEvade by endgame is more like reducing enemy hit chance by ~30% from 70% to 50%.

Alm vs. Tir (S1)
Alm vs. Shania (SH3)
Alm vs. Arcanist (BD)
Alm vs. Levin (WAXF)
Alm vs. Fang (FF13)
Alm vs. Sync (TotA)
Alm vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Alm vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
Alm vs. Ninja (FFT)
Alm vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Alm vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
Hmm.  Time to work out Bow-Alm.  Looks like (if we assume the forged Iron Bow) a 3HKO against Camilla?  (Unforged, yeah, that's -12 damage from 6 MT to 2 MT, so Alm is out of business.)
So...  serve with Bolt Axe, counter with Bolt Axe, swing with Silver to finish?  Ah but it's a 3 range Bow, so no dice, probably.  So just 2x Silver Axe hits + a Savage Blow.  That's...  close, but no cigar.  So Alm BARELY squeaks this one out.  But...  he loses if Bolt Axe is seen as 3-range, and only 4HKOs if denied even a little forging hype (reminder that I see CQ characters as a bit tankier than Elf's topic has 'em).
Alm vs. Nox (CoL)



Jusis vs. Tir (S1)
Boom.
Jusis vs. Shania (SH3)
Can Jusis blow up Shania before Shania blows up him?  Altair Cannon + Asteion Knight, even baking in hitting Shania's holy weakness, just barely misses (I think comes out to ~1.01 PCHP for me?), although it does debuff Shania a bit - but not enough to matter.  If Jusis only uses the Cannon and doesn't unload the S-Craft, Sanlitto Bell -> Draining still probably does its work to avoid a KO on the 2nd Cannon.
Jusis vs. Arcanist (BD)
Boom mark 2.
Jusis vs. Levin (WAXF)
Not quite so open-and-shut, because Levin can just serve with Blast here and aim for a 3HKO off better speed that Jusis can't profitably heal off.  And...  I think he JUST BARELY has a 3:2 here, so Jusis really wants to win on turn 1.  Although...  he maybe casts a really fast spell on turn 2 like Air Strike before Levin's 3rd turn?  Sure, let's go with that.  But still, 50% wind resist?  Ugh, that means Jusis is falling back to his considerably slower Space spells, so that plan is out of business after all.  He really needs for Altair Cannon + Aestion Knight to KO, and I don't think it does - it came close for Shania because she was weak to Holy.
Jusis vs. Fang (FF13)
Too much of Fang's status game is blocked (she can uh Slow?!) and her physical game is really subpar.  Jusis is gonna Freeze her after 2 attempts and she's got no way to win in 2 turns.
Jusis vs. Sync (TotA)
Damage control for a limit boss.
Jusis vs. Hiro (Lunar2)
Depends on if Triple Sword is seen as ITE.  I'm inclined to think not really but give it an accuracy boost or the like since Insight dodges enemy skills that aren't S-Crafts just fine in-game.  Insight, Noble Command, heal, heal, Noble Command, Insight, then off to the races should be good.
Jusis vs. Blue Mage (FF5)
I think Freeze connects before Mini, and Old won't do quite enough fast enough.
Jusis vs. Ninja (FFT)
SUNKEN STATE hype?!  Alas for Concentrate Ninjas.
Jusis vs. Sofia (DQ4)
Can't stop Freeze.
Jusis vs. Camilla (FE Fates)
I think Camilla just barely doesn't 4HKO with Bolt Axe for me (= effective 2RKO), it's more like a 5HKO.  Of course she needs to go for the Silver Axe 2HKO anyway into the evasion and probably miss but occasionally win, since Ragna Vortex should hit weakness and avoid counters due to being MT, then S-Craft if needed to finish the deal.  (Heck, even if it still isn't fatal, Camilla will be Sealed and very unhappy, as that probably stops her Bolt Axe shenanigans too despite hitting Res.)
Jusis vs. Nox (CoL)
Easy win vs. single-entity Nox, since Judgement Bolts hit weakness and are magic.
Vs. Nox with tentacles, pop off Aestion Knight at initiative which won't kill them, but will seal the tentacles.  Then back to serving with Lightning to finish the job.

Babyrage: 5-7
Ann Takamaki: 10-2
Alm: 7-5
Jusis Albarea: 8-4
« Last Edit: August 31, 2017, 10:35:18 PM by SnowFire »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2017, 07:21:41 PM »
I probably would see Gaiden's 2-3 range as equivalent to 2 range in other FEs, and 4-5 as equivalent to 3 in other FEs. In both cases, the former is a range reached by much normal magic and basic bows, while the latter is reached only by bows which have had their range boosted in some way (RD's Marksman / Gaiden's Sniper/Bow Knight class boosts, longbow, etc.).

I will strongly speak out against allowing characters to use multiple forged weapons in Echoes generally, but I can see some case for it for Alm and Celica. That said there should still be a gold and silver budget of some sort probably to keep it under control for them.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2017, 07:37:07 PM by Dark Holy Elf »

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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #8 on: August 10, 2017, 07:34:44 PM »
That's a fair point, Alm already is spending more than anyone else to forge his Royal Sword up which requires Gold, so if there's anyone who has an argument to be put on a weapon diet, it's him.

Alm does need 3 different interps to all go his way, but it's kind of interesting from a theorycraft perspective that he can still win if all three go his way, rather than losing anyway.  Since he needs a forged Iron Bow, for Bolt Axe to be seen as equivalent to 2-range in Echoes (when there are definitely enemy Arcanists packing 1-3 range counters), and for the minor speed hit from Iron Bow to not get him doubled here (it's heavier than the Royal Sword). 

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #9 on: August 28, 2017, 07:36:17 PM »
Ann vs. Tir (S1)
Get overkilled or ID'd horribly, Sleep, collect victory.

I'm actually really late on this, but uh I'm not sure Ann wins even with Endure. She needs to: cast Fire Break in order to dispel Tir's elemental resistance (he halves fire, his mdur against elemental damage from Suikoden 1 elements is like 3x PC HP), cast Concentrate and THEN hit Tir for technical damage. Sleep lasts two turns and can't be refreshed, so Tir's inevitably getting a second turn. That's just not panning out. Brainwash would be an option if Tir could self-target during it, but I don't think it works that way. So yeah, if you don't allow the Despair gun for Ann, she ain't winning this fight.
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SnowFire

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Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Fire & Lightning
« Reply #10 on: August 31, 2017, 10:36:39 PM »
I had forgotten Tir's elemental halving.  Wow.  Pretty rare that someone survives Ann's burst, but hey, Tir vs. a PC in a fight that lasts until turn 3 or so, not bad.  (Although I guess Ann just straight fishes for 30% Despair with a physical in an RPGMon type scenario if granted Endure.)