Author Topic: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.  (Read 2025 times)

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« on: September 28, 2018, 10:29:43 PM »
Some various Middle-Heavy borderliners to throw against mostly Heavies.  We'll see how they do.

Eileen (S1) - DL Control.  Jo'ou likes the Earth Rune Suiko users & all.  Really good in Middle, but maybe runs out of spell charge gas too often in Heavy, or is subverted by that lack of status protection?
Haru (P5) - By convention, thought to be a High Middle, so she should get blown out here, right?  I'm skeptical.  Has some powerful spoiling games and a buff game, but compromised by slightly below average speed & durability, and general skill slot shortage.
Laura (ToCS) - Another kneejerked High Middle that I suspect is at least Low Heavy.  Blows you the hell up on turn 1 with Purgatorial Flames -> Radiant Lion, but in trouble if the fight goes beyond turn 1, or you resist both water & fire.
Fencer (Bravely Second) - Just kinda all-around good stats.  Possibly really tanky post-Aurochs Stance buff, depending on feelings about which enemies to judge damage against?
Alfyn (Octopath Traveller) - A tanky, near-infinite healer with a saxophone who even has an answer for status.  That speed though.  Also damage may range from okay-to-kinda-bad by interps, although there's always waiting out 6 turns of poison for when the axe is rusty…


Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Eileen vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Eileen vs. Citrine (XS3)
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Eileen vs. Rufus (VP2)
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7)
Eileen vs. Rune (PS4)
Eileen vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9)
Eileen vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Eileen vs. Marle (CT)
Eileen vs. Alm (FE Echoes)


Haru (Persona 5) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Haru vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Haru vs. Citrine (XS3)
Haru vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Haru vs. Rufus (VP2)
Haru vs. Cloud (FF7)
Haru vs. Rune (PS4)
Haru vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Haru vs. Steiner (FF9)
Haru vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Haru vs. Marle (CT)
Haru vs. Alm (FE Echoes)


Laura (Trails of Cold Steel) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Laura vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Laura vs. Citrine (XS3)
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Laura vs. Rufus (VP2)
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7)
Laura vs. Rune (PS4)
Laura vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Laura vs. Steiner (FF9)
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Laura vs. Marle (CT)
Laura vs. Alm (FE Echoes)


Fencer (Bravely Second) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Fencer vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Fencer vs. Citrine (XS3)
Fencer vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Fencer vs. Rufus (VP2)
Fencer vs. Cloud (FF7)
Fencer vs. Rune (PS4)
Fencer vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Fencer vs. Steiner (FF9)
Fencer vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Fencer vs. Marle (CT)
Fencer vs. Alm (FE Echoes)


Alfyn (Octopath Traveller) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Alfyn vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Alfyn vs. Citrine (XS3)
Alfyn vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Alfyn vs. Rufus (VP2)
Alfyn vs. Cloud (FF7)
Alfyn vs. Rune (PS4)
Alfyn vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Alfyn vs. Steiner (FF9)
Alfyn vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Alfyn vs. Marle (CT)
Alfyn vs. Alm (FE Echoes)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2018, 10:32:00 PM by SnowFire »

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2018, 10:33:03 PM »
Special: Tide & DragonKnight only!!1!  Well, if you want.  Some characters that will probably never even make the CKDL and will get all of 1 vote, but I suppose they deserve to get in somewhere.

Shir Gold (Phantasy Star 2 NR) - Well apparently this hack is well known for making Shir uber, giving her great damage, healing, speed, and decent durability.
Han Solo (Star Wars) - Shoots first apparently?


Shir Gold (PS2NR) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Shir vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Shir vs. Citrine (XS3)
Shir vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Shir vs. Rufus (VP2)
Shir vs. Cloud (FF7)
Shir vs. Rune (PS4)
Shir vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Shir vs. Steiner (FF9)
Shir vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Shir vs. Marle (CT)
Shir vs. Alm (FE Echoes)



Han Solo vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Han vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Han vs. Citrine (XS3)
Han vs. Arnaud (WA4)

Han vs. Rufus (VP2)
Han vs. Cloud (FF7)
Han vs. Rune (PS4)
Han vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Han vs. Steiner (FF9)
Han vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Han vs. Marle (CT)
Han vs. Alm (FE Echoes)

Random Consonant

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 2207
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2018, 11:51:12 PM »
Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default) - Surely.
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7) - Should be able to get around Finishing Touch
Eileen vs. Rune (PS4) - Think Eileen needs both Negatis and Seals to not be turn 1 here and I'm not sure where your magic stat would need to be to make that happen.
Eileen vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)
Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9) - Trusting others.
Eileen vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3) - More of that Copper Flesh nonsense.
Eileen vs. Marle (CT) - Sure.
Eileen vs. Alm (FE Echoes)

Haru (Persona 5) vs. Knight (Bravely Default) - Not too sure what Haru's gameplan is here.  Try to delay the brave blitz with Tetrakarn and fire off Psiodynes on doubleturns?  Don't think she has the SP for that.
Haru vs. Arnaud (WA4) - Strong kneejerk.
Haru vs. Cloud (FF7) - Faster and the opening hit probably puts Haru too much on the back foot.
Haru vs. Rune (PS4) - Negatis.
Haru vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)  - Cordelia goes first and that's the end of that.  Assuming she doesn't miss the one-rounding and skill power in P5 works the way I think it does, anyways (that is to say, tripling it results in less than twice the damage.  Pretty sure P3/4 worked that way at least.  Matters since peg knights have a decent case to be weak to P5 gun skills.) since I don't believe Tetrakarn is enough if she does miss the one-rounding (though since she only loses -2.5 atk from WTD to me, she shouldn't on average.)
Haru vs. Steiner (FF9) - I... I think she's faster here which would let her take this with Heat Riser.
Haru vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3) - Probably takes this thanks to Heat Riser at worst, Janus's Ka Dingel form isn't that scary to fighters.
Haru vs. Marle (CT) - Hmm right OSK.  Marle likely can't prevent Haru from getting off three of them with how bad her damage is here, and I don't think I give Stop the benefit of the doubt vs. Fast Heal.
Haru vs. Alm (FE Echoes) - Honestly even if he doesn't murder her first with Double Lion, Tetrakarn is kind of useless here anyways since Alm will just get rid of it with bow plinks that don't hurt him.

Very definitely a middle <_<.


Laura (Trails of Cold Steel) vs. Knight (Bravely Default) - Laura surely doesn't have enough magic damage for this.
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4) - Radiant Lion OHKO?  Radiant Lion OHKO.
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7) - I'll bite.
Laura vs. Rune (PS4) - Blocks Death so she doesn't even have to OHKO, probably does anyways.
Laura vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening) - Um.
Laura vs. Steiner (FF9) - Sure.
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Laura vs. Marle (CT)
Laura vs. Alm (FE Echoes) - Sure.

tbh this isn't really the sort of field i'd use to say whether or not laura is a heavy particularly since it sounds like she loses the matches i can't vote on (i mean since PF + RL is a 2HKO to average she probably is, but still).  oh boy she spoils arnaud and rune?
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 04:58:42 AM by Random Consonant »

Pyro

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1792
  • Mwahahaha
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #3 on: September 29, 2018, 02:50:30 AM »
Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Surely she has the damage to kill.
Eileen vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): And again.
Eileen vs. Citrine (XS3): Tanks an EQ and silences?
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4): Slow Down/Sleep?

Eileen vs. Rufus (VP2): Status.
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7): CF
Eileen vs. Rune (PS4): ID

Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9): He only halves Earth.
Eileen vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3): CF.
Eileen vs. Marle (CT): Status.


Laura (Trails of Cold Steel) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Laura would have to win with magic and I don't think she even has enough magic damage here.
Laura vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): I think he's durable enough.
Laura vs. Citrine (XS3): And here.
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4): S-Crafts are ITE.

Laura vs. Rufus (VP2): I think he statuses her first?
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7)
Laura vs. Rune (PS4): She probably KO's with just the S-Craft.
Laura vs. Steiner (FF9)
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Laura vs. Marle (CT)


Fencer (Bravely Second) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Fencer can get pretty tanky but Knight is in another dimension.
Fencer vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): Being entirely physical is a bad idea v Fencer.
Fencer vs. Citrine (XS3): I don't think Fencer cares about Silence?
Fencer vs. Arnaud (WA4): Shut-Out?

Fencer vs. Rufus (VP2)
Fencer vs. Cloud (FF7): Good at breaking limits.
Fencer vs. Rune (PS4): Immune ID, equip for Mdef and buff.

Fencer vs. Steiner (FF9): Steiner has good damage of both types and good physical durability.
Fencer vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Fencer vs. Marle (CT): Marle pdur.



Tide

  • Malice Tears
  • Mod Board Access
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 1374
  • Cacophony of Sorrow
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #4 on: September 29, 2018, 04:36:20 AM »
Laura vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss) - Mmm...first match for Laura and not a bad fight. Largo's pretty non-threatening at first, and as strange as it might sound, Laura might want to open with Radiant Wings instead, giving herself Inisight to dodge the worst of Largo's attacks. The problem of course, is that she needs to be able to drop Largo from pretty much 75% HP to nothing and he's pretty durable. She's already taking a HP hit here, requiring the use of Maelstrom since Purgatorial Flame gets resisted, which probably results in a slight damage hit too. I think Largo wins but it's close.
Laura vs. Citrine (XS3) - Block Silence. Citrine has nothing threatening until about 67% HP. Before hand, the best she can do is use a physical that 6HKOs average. It effects accuracy, but since Laura's using arts here, it shouldn't matter. Chip a little with a weaker spell if need be, then smash.
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4) - ITE OHKO. She does this by the skin of her teeth. Arnaud has 1.05 HP and she will deal 1.08 once his awful Pdur is considered.
Laura vs. Rufus (VP2) - Red Pendulum blocks Petrify AND Freeze. Rufus is even weak to Ice, which you might see Water arts catching and he's  below average on HP.
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7) - Should be able to limit control this by using a weaker fire spell before unleashing holy hell.
Laura vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening) - I'm not quite sure how Laura manages this barring a OHKO. She's getting constantly doubled, her magic has a chance of missing and she's facing WTD.
Laura vs. Steiner (FF9) - Steiner's Elemental resist nonsense gives Laura problems. I think it's actually enough of an advantage here.
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)  - Um...pretty gross mismatch? Rising Nova phase is a non-issue (Radiant Lion bursts past it clean), so Janus is basically trying to win with his glorious 6HKO pelts. Laura can chip a bit with a weaker spell into the Radiant Lion if need be but it really shouldn't be necessary.
Laura vs. Marle (CT) - Initiative OHKO. Go go 169% P.dur
Laura vs. Alm (FE Echoes) - *checks*. Alm has really good P.dur and his M.dur isn't complete failure. So he can probably survive Laura's burst damage, forcing her to take an extra turn that she can't afford.

Laura  6-4. Her MQ+big mult on S-craft carries a lot. It gives her the ability to just one shot physically frail targets and it blows past many dangerous limit phases. Past that, Laura struggles - she has constant issues with people that resist elements and she's very one dimensional.


So some notes here for Han for those of you interested in Han Solo vs the DL. Since the last time the topic was  updated, speed has been changed in GoH to become just linear without the tiering. This means that you can take speed like any other game for CTB and leaves Han at 105.5% average. Probably a little lower since a couple of  new characters introduced are fairly quick.

For damage, Han basically rules and is why he is in Heavy. He has initiative and deals 8000 damage on the first shot (due to his basic's properties) and then 4000 for the follow up. His crit rate is incredibly high, at a massive 76% before any buffs, so that's very likely turning into a 18000 damage opening and it stuns the target. As if that wasn't enough, Han's basic is ITE, so you can't avoid this barring being Stun immune or Phys immune. If he decides to buff himself, it's a half turn charge (and can't be reused for 4 turns but that's never gonna matter in the DL), and he will gain 50% crit damage up and Crit Up as well, which basically gives him guaranteed crits. His Deadeye special will now do 20700 damage and stun, while his basic can hit up to 27000 damage. Average PC durability in this game is roughly 51000, so needless to say, Han is amazing here.

For durability, Han is little below average - about 95% PCHP. His other downsides are that he's very one dimensional and all of his damage is physical. He also doesn't have any special equips or anything so he's relying on being a massive cannon in order to win. Onward!

Han Solo (SWGoH) vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss) - Can Largo be stunned? Pretty sure he can, but someone can correct me. Anyway, this requires some tricky play from Han but it should be doable. He has to time the Deadeye right before Largo can use Brimstone Tempest, and then just burst  past the remainder of his HP. His basic having a delay effect should help with this.
Han vs. Citrine (XS3) - I'm not sure how to treat GoH stun here. On one hand, XS3 bosses can be stunned but they have  notable resistance against it ala a big Break gauge. On the other hand, Han's stun is pretty much 100% barring immunity. I probably see it working here, which means he just dumps a bunch of damage on Citrine before she can do much. 
Han vs. Arnaud (WA4) - Um...Spoiler'd. ITE basically means Arnaud's garbage P.dur becomes a big issue and Han doesn't care about Illusion.
Han vs. Rufus (VP2) - Rufus can get a stun blocker! He's also  probably going first and Han can't really stop Stone Decree from statusing him out.
Han vs. Cloud (FF7) - Han has to be really careful with limits but Stunning works against Cloud and should prevent the worst from happening. He just needs to time the Deadeye as Cloud is getting a limit to null the limit turn, then carry on blasting.
Han vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening) - Bad news for Han is that his double shot is going to trigger double the counters (as it does ingame!). So even though Cordelia doesn't double, she'll still be swinging twice for every hit. And unlike Sumia, she's not as fragile, so I think she just manages.
Han vs. Steiner (FF9) - Han has much better damage and pretty much outraces Steiner.
Han vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3) - Rising Nova phase is  once again a non-issue. Janus can't really do much about Han's burst damage here. Also, as if that wasn't enough, Janus' 6HKO pelts will probably trigger a counter from Han, which is going to hurt like a truck.
Han vs. Marle (CT) - Kills within the opening salvo with that P.dur.
Han vs. Alm (FE Echoes) - I think Alm's big P.dur lets him take this. And Han's below average durability does him no favors against Double Lion

Han Solo 7-3. The guaranteed Stun + initiative Stun + Delay on his attack gives Han some turn manipulation tactics and he hits really fucking hard. For someone who is so straightforward, he's also really fun to see in fights. He can constantly pump out tons of damage but like Laura, is very one dimensional  - probably more  so in his case.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2018, 05:19:02 AM by Tide »
<napalmman> In Suikoden I, In Chinchirorin, what is it called when you roll three of the same number?
<@Claude> yahtzee

<Dreamboum> Everyone is learning new speedgames!
<Dreamboum> A bright future awaits us gentlemens
<Pitted> I'm learning league of legends
<Dreamboum> go fuck yourself

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #5 on: September 29, 2018, 08:14:35 AM »
Eileen: .72 PCHP damage off Earthquake (by the multiple L4 average), .73 PCHP, bad PDef, good MDef, reasonably fast.  The "reasonably fast" part being pretty darn important since I presume she has to let Copper Flesh expire before recasting it.

Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Eileen vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Eileen vs. Citrine (XS3)
Misty is very, very bad for Eileen.
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4)
While I can see disrespecting Sleep's chances somewhat, after Slow Down, Arnaud gets a number of chances to try it, and Arnaud can also gamble on Magic Blocker activating on one of the two EQs Eileen needs to win. 

Eileen vs. Rufus (VP2)
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7)
I think Voice of Earth dodges the limit.
Eileen vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)

Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9)
Steiner can apparently keep Tin Armor's magic defense & evade while also halving Earth off his greaves...   that seems like it makes it a real uphill battle for Eileen, she needs to connect 4 EQs or the like, or 3 EQs and 2 VoEs.  Might make Iai Strike a real concern.  Alternatively, would 3x Dark Sides do the trick?  Would Steiner even survive spending his HP?  Seems close at least.
Eileen vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Uh...  this is actually kinda close, but sure, I think the CF holds out and Eileen is faster.  Heal Berry counters just aren't that powerful.
Eileen vs. Marle (CT)
Haste/Heal, Provoke.
Eileen vs. Alm (FE Echoes)
Alm's regen mildly annoys Eileen here, but she just recasts CF at worst.

Eileen: 6-4-1, probably loses to Rune though.


I'll be nice and give Haru the "Fair" averages, so 0.91 PCHP, 97% Spd, ~.40? Psiodyne average (loses a little from no Magic axe?), .49 gun damage, varies a bit if using OSK or Trip Down.  Still has skill slot allocation issues.

Haru (Persona 5) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Yeah, Knight can knock off Tetrakarn at no cost to herself.
Haru vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Largo lets Haru set up, and he's pure physical.  Could argue that multi-hit stuff can sneak a little damage through, but not inclined to with how P5 damage reflection works.  If Brimstone Tempest gets through, Haru can probably still smash through with a Heat Riser'd gun / OSK / Triple Down.
Haru vs. Citrine (XS3)
Uhhh.  Pretty sure Haru wins if she's allowed to set the Fast Heal skill to get Silence cleared quickly, she probably loses the slugfest otherwise (although it's actually close-ish with Citrine giving up a turn, and Citrinitas's Wave probably being Psi-elemental and thus useless).  if she has Fast Heal, set up with Heat Riser to avoid the limit.
Haru vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Heat Riser -> 2x gunshots should do Arnaud in, although they may not both hit depending on how you see Illusion & Heat Riser's accuracy bonus/penalty interacting, along with Arnaud's naturally good evade.  Could use OSK if there's an accuracy boost on that and is willing to give up the HP.  Arnaud surely wants to open Slow Down, but then has to burn through Haru's now quite respectable durability...  maybe Sleep hype, if Fast Heal is out?  Anyway, Arnaud 8HKOs if he just spams Hi-Blast, and I don't think the turnsplit is THAT bad enough to let him get away with that.  Hyper might be a gameplan, but stat topic seems to antihype the accuracy on Arnaud's physicals.  Alternatively this might be overthinking things if the natural evade + Illusion are enough to deny Haru the 2 shots, which would give Arnaud a lot of ways to win.  Probably Arnaud?


Haru vs. Rufus (VP2)
Sheesh, Rufus's damage is better than I recalled.  Even throwing out some Einjergar scrubs I think he just OHKOs.
Haru vs. Cloud (FF7)
Huh, Haru & Cloud tie in speed.  I think whoever goes first wins, if Cloud goes first he puts Haru too much on the backfoot such that Heat Riser doesn't save her.  I don't really respect either FF7 or P5 speed much either so that isn't a useful tiebreak!  Call it a draw.
Haru vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)
I believe Cordelia loses 3 Atk from weapon triangle disadvantage, which is -12 damage when doubling with a Brave Lance, which means...  okay so she still kills on turn 1 after all.  but it might have been interesting otherwise!

Haru vs. Steiner (FF9)
See Cloud, whoever goes first wins, and they damn near tie on speed.  Sheesh.
Haru vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Yah, lets her set up Heat Riser.
Haru vs. Marle (CT)
Don't bother with Heat Riser, just fish for OSK crit OHKOs whenever Provoke isn't in effect?  Haru resists Ice so Marle truly takes forever to win.  If she's allowed to equip Fast Heal which makes Marle's Stop & Confuse game really bad, it's an outright slaughter, but she might not even need it.
Haru vs. Alm (FE Echoes)
Tetrakarn doesn't really work here if Haru lives to her own turn, which she probably doesn't anyway.

3-5, 2 initiative coinflip ties, 1 undecided.  Not as good as I kinda hoped/expected, although it's a reasonably legit field.


Laura: 87% Spd, 1.13 PCHP.  Radiant Lion is .73 PCHP, Purgatorial Flame is 0.33 PCHP, both together are 1.06 PCHP.  Hmm, I see Dhyerwolf edited the damage average down a tad due to mid-tier spells being worse than expected?  Huh.  Assuming no shenanigans in the new damage figures, I might be willing to give even a bit more credit for EP woes.

Laura (Trails of Cold Steel) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
S-Crafts are exactly the kinda thing I'd see as breaking through Knight's defense...  too bad Laura doesn't OHKO even Knight's raw HP, or does so just barely, before defense.  Yeah.
Laura vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Yeah, Laura can fall back to water magic with fire resisted, but I'm not sure it matters unless your TotA boss HP respect is pretty low.
Laura vs. Citrine (XS3)
The good news: S-Craft to dodge Red Dragon Killer.  The bad news: Citrine is actually pretty darn durable, and also resists fire.  While Citrine's damage is le horrible, the Trails cast in general has issues with getting through sufficiently tanky bosses in any reasonable length of time.
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Arnaud needs to pray Magic Blocker kicks in.  Laura even blocks ID & Sleep.

Laura vs. Rufus (VP2)
Blocks the status, kills on turn 1.
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7)
Even with half-full limit gauges, I'm sure Laura can chip this one.
Laura vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)
I think this is closer than Tide does, Cordelia definitely misses a ORKO from me, her evade isn't turn 1, so Laura's one-rounding off magic -> S-Craft is definitely in play.  I don't think she makes it, but it's not THAT far off, given a more generous damage average or the like.

Laura vs. Steiner (FF9)
A fight between Laura & a PC that lasts until turn 3!
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Laura vs. Marle (CT)
Laura vs. Alm (FE Echoes)
Yeah, Alm is quite tanky.

Laura: 6-5.  (Probably 7-5, sounds like she easily beats Rune too.)  Not a Middle, since these were mostly Heavies!


Alfyn: Hmm, not sure where people will see the 8PT damage average, since there's a lot of options, and the cast does tend to backload their damage which can engender some sympathy for "nice" damage averages.  Amputate is .13 PCHP in the 3-turn Anything Goes average (or a burst of a max-boosted .53 PCHP damage), but is .16 PCHP in the "Natural" 3-turn damage average (max burst: .65 PCHP), and even better in the 2-turn average.

Anyway, 1.31 PCHP, 1.35 P Dur, 1.33 E. Dur, very slow.  (But take Octopath speed with a grain of salt.)

Alfyn (Octopath Traveller) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
2x def-buffed Super Charges are 1.40 PCHP damage to me.  Good for Knight, because she NEEDS the one-turn KO here to win.
Alfyn vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Alfyn's pretty good at chipping.  I think he can dodge Brimstone Tempest range, it's apparently only 25% HP or so (so .50 PCHP if you see Largo at ~2 PCHP), and nothing Largo does scares him at all, just forces him to heal.  Even if he misses that, he can chip then use Concocts to fish for P. Def down debuff, which will double his burst's damage and also barely damage the target.
Alfyn vs. Citrine (XS3)
This is the same fight as above, can you dodge a 25% HP limit range on a tanky boss?  Probably, but Break is an issue...  Hmm, does blocking all status off Rehabilitate stop Break?  Also, Alfyn needs to avoid Misty on turn 1 (forget the duration on it, think it might be "forever"), which is in fairness quite likely thanks to Resist Ailments.  But yeah, after that, he can stack up 9 turns of Rehabilitate before he actually starts pushing Citrine to lower health.  And hell, he might even be able to survive getting broken.
Alfyn vs. Arnaud (WA4)
While I'm pretty skeptical of Arnaud's low% instant death dagger, this is one of the rare matches I'll hype it up in.  Alfyn's strat is something like heal a lot through Slow Down, drop 8x turns of Poison on Arnaud, go back to healing, and the length of time that takes to pull off means he'll just get ID'd in the many many turns he gives Arnaud.  (I don't think Rehabilitate stops that, for all that it barely matters in-game since instant death is so rare.)

Alfyn vs. Rufus (VP2)
The one status Alfyn doesn't like is stone.
Alfyn vs. Cloud (FF7)
What a shame that Poison doesn't trigger limits...  although this could be rare footage of POISON blocking being correct (at the cost of making Cloud slow!).  Anyway, Rehabilitate stops Cross-Slash hype, and a 3 BP burst stops any L2 limit hype.  I guess Cloud might heal-lock?  ...nah, he doesn't, just .60 PCHP damage at full HP.
Alfyn vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)
I think this is a "doubles in the DL" interp question.  In both their home games, a double will never happen, so Alfyn can heal for far longer than Cordelia's Brave Lance will hold out if they strictly alternate turns.  OTOH, Alfyn might accidentally outspeed one round in his own home game, which would give Cordelia an effective double...  and a Cordy double will kill, weapon triangle disadvantage be damned.  So no luck for Alfyn.

Alfyn vs. Steiner (FF9)
Hmm, Steiner probably wants to take some nebulous defense hit to equip Antibody to stop Poison.  Going for damage loses, he'll run out of MP.  Going for Iai Strikes...  Alfyn will need something like 9-11 Amputates, depending on how bad the defense hit is.  So a win on turn 5-6 or so if he never heals or uses Empoison (Amputate x4, buffed 3 BP Amputate for 4x damage, buffed 2 BP Amputate for 3x damage).  Dhyer seems to antihype Iai Strike as being a turn 5 status, more like a turn 7 status, so I guess Alfyn pulls it out?  Could be convinced.
Alfyn vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Yeah, low-damage bosses let Alfyn stock up BP while healing at no cost.
Alfyn vs. Marle (CT)
Hmm, with the Natural average, Alfyn can KO in a single 3BP Amputation burst.  With Anything Goes, he doesn't.  He might yet run Marle out of resources anyway which renders the point moot, as long as she doesn't stick a status on turn 1, via Rehabilitate stacking.
Alfyn vs. Alm (FE Echoes)
Alfyn is heal-locked.  Technically Alm is losing 1 HP a round that isn't being offset by the Royal Sword regen, but eventually he will get a double-crit Double Lion or a double similar to Cordelia above, and it's never safe for Alfyn to drop his 8x turns of Poison then resume healing.

Alfyn: 6-5, probably loses to Rune though.  Really just figured he'd be an excuse to find out where people see the damage average.
--

Eileen: 6-4-1
Haru: 3-5-3
Laura: 6-5
Alfyn: 6-5
« Last Edit: September 30, 2018, 03:28:06 AM by SnowFire »

DragonKnight Zero

  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 519
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #6 on: September 29, 2018, 08:25:54 AM »
Just the games I've played for now, may math out others later.

Shir Gold (Phantasy Star 2: NR) vs Cloud: Falls to Cross Slash + followup attack.
Shir vs Rune: Lives long enough to cast Negatis.  Negatis is really accurate.
Shir vs Steiner: Think she does fire off enough damage before Steiner lands a fatal Iai Strike thanks to speed split.  Direct damage skills just get healed so Steiner is reliant on low accuracy instant death.  Magic evade may be a thing though so it's not a sure thing for Shir.  Elemental resistance also hurts if one applies it as I'm treating PS2 Techs as all non-elemental.
Shir vs C1 human Janus: Janus magic counter draws this out a lot but I think Shir takes it.  Lac Dagger + Truth Sleeves: lots of knife stabs and itemcast healing keeps up with Janus' low damage before the limit phase.  So chip until close to limit phase and finish with Nathu seems to work.  Does depend on how durable one sees Janus.  Silly Janus, trying to win against a speedy sandbagger with direct damage only.
Shir vs Marle: Bit crazy but I think this is Marle's match.  Shir isn't able to exploit Marle's physical frailness very well and Marle magic defense softens a magic assault.  So I think Marle lives long enough to haste herself, heal, and start plinking away with the Siren.  If nothing else, Provoke is accurate enough to work first try which will give Marle space to heal up.  Eventually, Marle will string together enough Siren hits that keep Shir locked down to win.  It will take a while.  Shir is fast so Marle likely needs to keep Haste up or risk giving Shir a turn to undo her work but I think she pulls it off before running out of MP.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #7 on: September 29, 2018, 09:13:28 AM »
Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Eileen vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Eileen vs. Citrine (XS3)
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Sleep is turn 3 to me, which is too many
Eileen vs. Rufus (VP2)
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7)
Eileen vs. Rune (PS4)
Eileen vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)
Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9)
Eileen vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)- She wins with Darts!!
Eileen vs. Marle (CT)- While I don't respect Marle's status a lot (turn 3 on both to me), Haste+Cheap Healing buys a few extra turns to unleash the chances

Laura (Trails of Cold Steel) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Laura vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)- I can also see the Fire halving tipping it.
Laura vs. Citrine (XS3)- Topic effectively has Citrine at like 6 PC HP. Even assuming she's half of that, that's too much here.
Laura vs. Arnaud (WA4)
Laura vs. Rufus (VP2)- Laura fails to OHKO Rufus by my damage average (Water damage still does less than the Fire magic since Rufus' weakness is marginal)...although, he can just lower her attack before and might still potentially 2HKO to me (likely would)
Laura vs. Cloud (FF7)- Can take 2 Cloud hits
Laura vs. Rune (PS4)
Laura vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)- Laura doesn't like a fast 2HKOer who can take a PF+S-Craft. Evade strategy doesn't play well enough in Heavy given Laura is sluggish.
Laura vs. Steiner (FF9)- Elemental Resistance Does Laura in here
Laura vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)- Janus needs 3 Attacks and a Rising Nova. Magic counter eliminates PF, and she can't beat him relying on physical damage as he'll get 2 of the 3 attacks very quickly and can kill on turn 3.
Laura vs. Marle (CT)

Fencer (Bravely Second) vs. Knight (Bravely Default)
Fencer vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss)
Fencer vs. Citrine (XS3)- Citrine has a lot of HP to get through. Fist Down plus her evade will make it slow going for Fencer. I could be convinced with hard numbers, but I'm gut check that I might see Fencer about halving damage additionally with Def/Mdef Up (maybe less looking at Guardian's PDef, HP, and Pdur)
Fencer vs. Arnaud (WA4)- Illusion should do it
Fencer vs. Rufus (VP2)
Fencer vs. Cloud (FF7)- Round 3 of Cloud versus limit chippers this week.
Fencer vs. Rune (PS4)
Fencer vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening)- Cordelia should at best 3HKO through the defensive stance
Fencer vs. Steiner (FF9)- If Armor Break was actually accurate, this would be an interesting match
Fencer vs. C1 Human Janus (WA3)
Fencer vs. Marle (CT)

Eileen 7-4
Fencer 7-4
Laura 4-7
...into the nightfall.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2018, 04:35:04 AM »
Abstain on Janus. I generally object to being forced to vote on a specific boss form, especially one who's a bit of a headache due to the issues of scaling a fixed-effect item. Random thought: if you specifically want a reasonably rankable M/H WA3 boss for a Proving Grounds opponent, Todd exists.


Eileen (Suikoden) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Copper Flesh, hits the right defence.
Eileen vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): Don't recall Largo having much in the way of status.
Eileen vs. Citrine (XS3): Citrine, on the other hand...
Eileen vs. Arnaud (WA4): Eileen isn't going to bother with Copper Flesh here. She 2HKOs. There's a very good argument for Arnaud here on the basis of "well either he'll get lucky with Magic Blocker or lucky with sleep, combined odds > 50%" but I tend to disrespect status-slingers in this situation and I don't do that. Arnaud doesn't reach 67% chance to win with status.

Eileen vs. Rufus (VP2): Rufus can half earth with the silver cuirass, and his status goes through Copper Flesh nonsense. He 2HKOs while not being 2HKOed at base, statuses turn 2 if CF is used, and then kills easily when CF wears off.
Eileen vs. Cloud (FF7): Cloud more or less has to go for Cross-Slash and even then it probably doesn't last long neough, and Eileen may be able to dodge it anyway.
Eileen vs. Rune (PS4): I'm... acutally not sure, there's a real chance Negatis isn't turn 1 here and if it isn't, I think Eileen wins a damage blitz, either 2HKO with Copper Flesh or 3HKO with Copper Flesh + 2 physicals if Rune goes for silence. 180 S1 magic is a heck of a lot.
Eileen vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening): Copper Flesh.

Eileen vs. Steiner (FF9): Halving earth isn't enough here, not when your strategy to win is with 16% ID.
Eileen vs. Marle (CT): Marle just barely avoids a 2HKO (basically a survival roll), which gives her time to win (don't think haste would let her double right away otherwise, Eileen be fast).
Eileen vs. Alm (FE Echoes): Straightforward.


Fencer (Bravely Second) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Better at this game.
Fencer vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): Largo is quite tanky for his point in the game, don't think Bravely Heavies can deal with that.
Fencer vs. Citrine (XS3): See Largo.
Fencer vs. Arnaud (WA4): Illusion.

Fencer vs. Rufus (VP2): Petrify resistance? No? Okay then.
Fencer vs. Cloud (FF7): Probably, although I'm far from certain. Fencer tends to win on turn 3, and the stat topic doesn't make it clear how much damage Fencer loses by buffing def turn 1, which he'll probably need to. Assume it's still enough to handle Cloud though.
Fencer vs. Rune (PS4): Apparently Fencer's MDef buffing is good? I really should toy around with things because as with BD I didn't find MDef nearly that effective against The Stuff That Matters, but eh sure.
Fencer vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening): On the other hand the Def buffing doens't look nearly as good as the MDef anyway, Cordelia shouldn't have trouble 2RKOing. Plus Fencer probably hates even her modest evade.

Fencer vs. Steiner (FF9): Steiner's pdef seems like too much.
Fencer vs. Marle (CT): ORKO with a brave-blitz.
Fencer vs. Alm (FE Echoes): 1.73 pdur, Alm? Okay then, don't think Fencer can deal with that at all.



For Octopath, I'm generally of the opinion that relying on summoned animals is okay (see: FF5 Beastmaster, FF6 Shadow, even Yuna/Yuri/etc.) but that summoning other humans is not (see: RH Hugo), so for now here's an average that reflects that. And also assumes one of Alfyn's three Amputations will miss, because its accuracy seemed problematic. Amusingly enough Alfyn himself doesn't actually mind this that much...? Like maybe it costs him against Marle, I dunno.

3-round damage, tentative Elf version
1. 6500, Therion: Armor Corrosive -> HP Thief -> Aeber's Reckoning
2. 6110, Olberic: Abide -> Cross Strike -> Brand's Thunder
3. 5400, H'aanit: Summon Beast: Snow Leopard x3
4. 3825, Cyrus: Fire Storm x3
5. 2500, Ophilia: Holy Light x3
6. 2460, Primrose: Peacock Strut -> Moonlight Waltz x2
7. 2355, Tressa: Tradewinds x2 -> Bifelgan's Bounty
8. 2080, Alfyn: Amputation x3
Average: 3903 (2.5x killpoint: 3253)

Alfyn (Octopath Traveller) vs. Knight (Bravely Default): Supercharge barely enough it seems.
Alfyn vs. Largo (Tales of the Abyss): Isn't Alfyn just horribly heal-locked once Largo unlocks Savage Flame?
Alfyn vs. Citrine (XS3): Definitely don't see Alfyn immuning break, but does it matter? As long as he maintains Rehabilitate to go through the Break, I don't think Citrine can do much to him, since her break is a called shot.
Alfyn vs. Arnaud (WA4): Instant death. Arnaud resists ice to make Alfyn's killing power even worse here.

Alfyn vs. Rufus (VP2): Stone does its thing.
Alfyn vs. Cloud (FF7): Don't think I see Rehabilitate stopping paralysis, and I don't think Alfyn can credibly dodge it to me. Paralysis is probably too much.
Alfyn vs. Rune (PS4): Negatis.
Alfyn vs. Cordelia (FE Awakening): Octopath speed isn't the type I see allowing for doubleturns (unlike TB systems where slow characters are punished every turn by not knowing the battle situation). So Cordelia goes first then no doubling ever. She might be able to chip with a lance which is cheap enough to heal-lock Alfyn and hope that I see her resources lasting longer? But I dunno, it feels like a miss there could cost her dearly.

Alfyn vs. Steiner (FF9): No poison blocking for me, poison outraces Iai Strike.
Alfyn vs. Marle (CT): Stop.
Alfyn vs. Alm (FE Echoes): Yeah probably, unlike Cordelia he can crit.


Eileen 8-3
Alfyn 3-8
Fencer 3-8

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2018, 03:47:40 PM »
Actually, thinking on it, the 3-turn average is kinda unfair to Octopath. Their damage is a bit backloaded in some cases, AND it actually doesn't scale up very well past turn 3, because (a) you can't effectively use 4 BP in 4 turns, while you can use 3 BP in 3 turns, (b) the buffs of Olberic, Primrose, and Therion wear off and a 3-turn average is the exact moment that doesn't reflect this, and (c) the divine skills of Tressa, Olberic, and Therion can't be used again until turn 7.

Another way of looking at it: under the average I posted, one person kills on turn 2 (and not by much!), three on turn 3 (two in an overkill fashion, but they still can't kill turn 2 unless the target is like ~65% pdur or worse), two on turn 5, and two on turn 6, which is an average (both mean and median) of turn 4. We usually want average killing on closer to turn 3. So... let's try modified two-turn.

2-round damage, tentative Elf version
1. 3600, H'aanit: Summon Beast: Snow Leopard x2
2. 2550, Cyrus: Fire Storm x2
3. 2285, Olberic: Abide -> Cross Strike
4. 2010, Therion: Armor Corrosive -> HP Thief
5. 1670, Ophilia: Holy Light x2
6. 1475, Primrose: Peacock Strut -> Moonlight Waltz
7. 1380, Alfyn: Amputation x2 (prorated to 345 base damage due to accuracy)
8. 1180, Tressa: Tradewinds x2
Average: 2019 (2.5x killpoint: 2523)

With this average, two people kill on turn 2 (and one only barely), two kill on turn 3, three on turn 4, and one on turn 5. This seems a much more fair distribution (it's still an average kill turn of 3.4, hardly abusive!). It does mean that Olberic and Therion jump to overkill numbers on turn 3 but you know I'm pretty okay with that, it does reflect the fact that buffed divine skills are extreme pain.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Jo'ou Ranbu

  • Social Justice Steampunk Literature Character
  • New Age Retro Fucking Hipster
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 12988
  • Ah'm tuff fer mah size!
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2018, 05:42:14 PM »
To Snowfire: Eileen can reapply Copper Flesh before it runs out. I still remember this from testing it extensively around 12 years ago.
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> HEY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> LAGGY
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> UVIET?!??!?!
[01:08] <Laggy> YA!!!!!!!!!1111111111
[01:08] <Soppy-ReturningToInaba> OMG!!!!
[01:08] <Chulianne> No wonder you're small.
[01:08] <TranceHime> cocks
[01:08] <Laggy> .....

Dark Holy Elf

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 8161
  • Well-behaved women seldom make history
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #11 on: October 09, 2018, 12:47:01 AM »
Can also confirm that. It matters more for Hellion than Eileen, because Hellion is so slow. Against a slower opponent, their best strategy is to cast Copper Flesh every other turn, so it never drops. Against a faster, the best strategy is to cast it every third turn, since they'll win the race to recast it.

Erwin Schrödinger will kill you like a cat in a box.
Maybe.

Dhyerwolf

  • Moderator
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4736
  • Here it comes, the story, of mankind's final glory
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #12 on: October 09, 2018, 05:13:13 AM »
the buffs of Olberic, Primrose, and Therion wear off

Hmm, this is as good a place as any, but how to people feel about including buffs in averages? I know at one point we didn't tend to; I certainly feel fine with it now myself (sure, dispel exists, but it's rare, and there things that can stop all kinds of strategy). Guessing most are okay with it now.

Also, does Therion's defense down hit everything in game? If some enemies (particularly bosses) blocked it, I'm not sure it would make sense to include in averages anyways. Note that I've not played the game.

That said, if there a mitigating circumstances, might a turn 4 average make more sense than a turn 2? That capturing the peaks that the damage can hit with Divine Skills within the normal DL range while factoring in part of the damage dive afterwards. I guess it depends on how you feel about whether Divine Skills should really have an impact on those with support versions instead of damage.
...into the nightfall.

SnowFire

  • DL
  • Denizen
  • *
  • Posts: 4964
    • View Profile
Re: Proving Grounds Heavy: Swords & axes.
« Reply #13 on: October 09, 2018, 05:42:35 AM »
Jo'ou: Cool, good to know.  Must have seen you mention it before but couldn't recall.  And per Elf, yeah, more important for Hellion I'd imagine, although it makes her almost cheaty since it negates a lot of her vulnerability on bad defense.

Dhyer: I'm usually a fan of including buffs in the averages, yes (although I'm also fine with sometimes not using a 3-turn average, which can make buffs less potent).  Debuffs, including Therion's Defense debuff, hit every enemy in the game, but...  there is a skill that both clears debuffs as well as provider immunity to further debuffs in the postgame, Celestial Intervention, on both the Starseer class and Steorra, the postgame boss who guards Starseer (think BD Asterisk fights).  I don't recall this applying to any enemies, but on the PC side, there are also some postgame passives that provide permanent buffs, which is effective immunity to the corresponding debuff - think how equipping Running Shoes or Marvel Shoes in FF6 means you can't be Slowed.  So I'd let explicit debuff immunity stop Therion's debuff, but that's very rare, and wouldn't let implicit I'm-a-boss immunity cover it.

I could cook up a 4-turn average if you want, but I don't think it'd be THAT interesting.  I suspect the right damage average is more about fumbling about in the dark for something that feels right, so 3-turn works for being "strict" and 2-turn works for being "nice" to the cast.

Elf: I don't have any particular complaints about using a 2-turn average myself, since as you note the cast has real issues sustaining their damage past turn 3, but unlike say Bravely Default, they tend to backload their damage rather than frontload it.  (I wonder what the median time-to-kill of Bravely Default / Bravely Second are.  Maybe turn 1!  But then you have stuff like Bishop which kills on turn 30 or something, and Spiritmaster killing on turn 100+....)