Author Topic: Same-sex Marriage in California  (Read 6886 times)

NotMiki

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Same-sex Marriage in California
« on: May 17, 2008, 08:25:20 PM »
California's supreme court finds the California law banning gay marriage unconstitutional, based on their finding that a person's sexual orientation is not a legitimate basis for the withholding of legal rights (in this case, the right to marry and have an officially recognized and protected family).

The Decision
http://www.courtinfo.ca.gov/opinions/documents/S147999.PDF

There's no short way to discuss the specifics that go into the decision, but I'll try and lay out the big ones best I can:

In California, there is a constitutional right to marry.  Under the challenged law, gay couples could enter into domestic partnerships with substantively all the same status as marriage except for the name.  The court finds that (in part because the state recognizes domestic partnerships at all) there is in fact a substantive difference between the two.

Under normal circumstances, that wouldn't be enough to find the law unconstitutional, but the court also (and more importantly) finds homosexuality to be a 'constitutionally suspect' basis in terms of differential treatment, like race, gender, and religion.  Because homosexuality is suspect, laws that impose differential treatment on it are viewed by the courts with 'strict scrutiny,' in other words the state must prove that it has a compelling, necessary interest in the differential treatment, whereas normally the state gets the benefit of the doubt.

The court finds that protecting the traditional meaning of marriage is not a compelling or necessary interest because (1) allowing homosexuals to marry does not change the legal rights of married heterosexuals in any way, (2) denying the designation of marriage does appreciable harm to the couple and their children because it calls into question the legitimacy and equality of their family structure, and (3) homosexuals have been a historical target of discrimination, and allowing a separate designation implies that California's official position accepts that discrimination.

The court leaves open the possibility that California can simply get out of the marriage business entirely and designate all marriages or domestic partnerships as the same thing using different language, as long as they operate under a single framework.

Thoughts?
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #1 on: May 17, 2008, 09:28:08 PM »
Pretty much follows what I've always thought on the subject.

Using the term Marriage as the legal definition of union as well has always impeded the process since:
A) The state can't really force churches to recognize gay marriage under the church due to the separation of church and state and,
B) People can't really seem to differentiate the fact that marriage under law holds different meanings than marriage under god.  It's an understandable one though.

There's always the usual homophobia, religious beliefs, etc that factor into this, but they usually fall under B. The term Marriage is too firmly ingrained as a religious concept or at least to have religious connotations for the legal definition to unstick itself from it. Regardless of what people like to think, calling them "Civil Unions" and being done with it doesn't solve much (disregarding the typically unequal rights given to such unions anyway). It really seems to be an "All or nothing" thing.

As long as the gay population sticks to pursuing the legal angle and stays away from the religious, they should do fine.

Grefter

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2008, 11:37:09 PM »
Yeah that is pretty much the same shit that I have been spouting ever since the topic first came up as a big deal.  Nice to see somewhere do it.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #3 on: May 18, 2008, 02:29:42 AM »
 More or less agree with what Soppy stated.
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NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #4 on: May 18, 2008, 03:00:58 AM »
Couple more things of interest: in its opening statement the majority lays out the reason the California court had previously found a constitutional right to marry (in its 1948 case legalizing interracial marriage) is an extrapolation of the individual right to raise an 'officially recognized and protected family.'  Because California had taken great pains to give domestic partnerships the same substantive rights as marriages, the court says, the state had already recognized the legitimacy of a family unit based on a homosexual couple.  In other words, the state's law giving some rights to gay couples was a key part of why the court concluded they deserved all of those rights.  Even though the law in question they cite is the one they find unconstitutional!  It's possible that if the state hadn't made a law allowing homosexuals to have domestic partnerships, the court wouldn't have found that they deserved equal protection at all.

That general argument doesn't substantively attach to any of the reasons they cite for why homosexuality should be 'constitutionally suspect' under California's equal protection clause, which is the factual basis for the law being 'strictly scrutinized' and overturned, however the argument they do make for homosexuality being constitutionally suspect is a bit thin, so California's precedent certainly helped.

According to the appeals court that first heard this case, a 'constitutionally suspect' classification must be based on an 'immutable trait,' must not impede in any way one's ability to participate in society, and must be associated with a 'stigma of inferiority.'  No problem for the last two, but the first is tricky since there's no precedent in California law (in other words, it's up to the supreme court to say yes or no).  The court says immutability need not be proved because, like religion, "a person’s sexual orientation is so integral an aspect of one’s identity, it is not appropriate to require a person to repudiate or change his or her sexual orientation in order to avoid discriminatory treatment."

So because religion is protected, other traits that are difficult but not impossible to change may also be.  The court neatly sidesteps the argument as to whether or not homosexuality is innate; it need not be.  So are the latter two traits enough?  That, it seems, is entirely up to the court to decide.

--

Another interesting part of this is the minority opinions, which there are two of.  This court has 7 members, 6 appointed by Republicans.  the vote was 4-3.  One of the three dissenters finds that homosexuals deserve equal protection rights but that domestic partnerships are good enough to meet that standard.  The other two, despicably, don't deign to address whether or not there is a constitutional violation at all.  Instead, their dissent amounts to, "this decision was recently decided by the legislature and the people.  The court oversteps its bounds by overturning such a law."  In other words, the supreme court has no business overturning a law as unconstitutional if overturning that law would have major consequences.  They cite 'separation of powers' as a reason they refuse to decide against the state.

They also, laughably, can't find constitutional protections for gays because they weren't specifically written into the constitution.  Of course, neither were women or minorities.  By those arguments, they would not, if they had heard the case, have overturned a ban on interracial marriage, either.

Yeah, I'm totally diggin' reading this opinion.  It's pretty accessible, actually.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 01:18:47 AM by NotMiki »
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superaielman

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #5 on: May 18, 2008, 03:03:55 AM »
I'm pretty much in favor of anything that strengthens the case for legal gay marriage(Unions, see Soppy in general on that) besides a constitutional amendment, so I'm fine with this ruling.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #6 on: May 18, 2008, 08:00:16 AM »
Huzzah, I say. I haven't heard much in the way of arguments against gay marriage that don't boil down to homophobia, so I obviously support this decision. Particularly agree with this:

The court finds that protecting the traditional meaning of marriage is not a compelling or necessary interest because (1) allowing homosexuals to marry does not change the legal rights of married heterosexuals in any way,

Damn straight (no pun intended). Why is it so bloody hard for some people to get that someone else having a different lifestyle does not invalidate your own? Opposition to it has never seemed like anything but another kind of bigotry to me.

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #7 on: May 18, 2008, 08:22:53 AM »
Yeah, heard about this on the radio.

(Always listen to public radio when I'm out, usually get BBC somewhere in there, too. It's the only time I get real news. Both in the sense that I don't listen to news any other time and in the sense that I rarely consider non-BBC news to be real.).

Glad to hear that at least one of the people against the dratted thing had a remotely logical reason; They mentioned the BS doubletalk pair in passing, and I was curious about the third. (No, I don't agree with the reason, but it's nice to see that people can actually come up with reasons against this that are remotely logical. Possibly covering an emotional bias, but at least a remotely good reason is something.)

Also the Reps point is interesting, and probably shows that it's not a precisely great legal case to be standing on if three out of six of the reps voting went with it; Not saying Republicans can't be in favor of gay marriage, obviously, but it's clearly the less outspoken denomination about legalizing it. (And, sadly, often politicians get more polarized than average people, further muddying this. So it's nice to see.)

Otherwise, yeah, I've been ranting about this for a while; Legal marriage needs to be...ahem, divorced...from religious, and handled as a tax issue.

If anything, this is about 300 years coming and was an oversight based on founding fathers who thought of freedom of religion as varying forms of Christianity because it was basically the only game in town at the time.

If we're going to have seperation of church and state, it needs to go all the way; I'd personally be for just calling marriage, in the legal sense, something completely different. As in, completely abolish "legal marriage" and simply have civil unions with all the previous rights as marriage. (With different tiers, so that the old version isn't completely abolished, if that matters? Kinda like how you have driving permits to go with your licenses. <_<) It's simplest.
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NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #8 on: May 18, 2008, 04:25:36 PM »
Personally, I have no problem with the government being in the marriage business.  I don't buy the argument that marriage is primarily a religious institution.  It's true that marriages are conducted religiously, but seeing as almost all religions and countries (including communist ones) have marriage in one form or another, and that they differ in substance (with differing emphases on property rights, possession, polygamy, etc), I have no problem with the government setting the official rules of marriage.

The US gov't, for example, forbids polygamy, and has for some time.  As a practical affect, the continuous ban on polygamy has probably significantly protected the broad, secular-Christian tradition of the US, forcing Fundamentalist Mormons into insular conclaves instead of tolerating them in broader society.  If the US were out of the marriage business, those cults would gain a legitimacy they don't currently enjoy.  We're also not having big problems, like they do in the UK, of immigrants importing extra wives.
« Last Edit: May 18, 2008, 04:38:54 PM by NotMiki »
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #9 on: May 18, 2008, 11:22:32 PM »
Now that two men or two women can marry each other, what's next?  A man marrying a bathtub?  A woman marrying her own face?  Dogs marrying cats?  Umbrellas marrying socks?  Boats marrying Jews?  Laser printers marrying the illusory pipe of Rene Magritte's painting The Treachery of Images?  I could go on!

[/obligatory]

Seriously though, it's good news and all, honestly it's only a matter of time before this issue gets worked through one way or another.  Equal marriage rights, or marriage simply not being a governmental issue anymore (tax issues and legal next-of-kin could easily enough be siphoned out and handled on their own), whatever, there's a whole bunch of ways to get the end result.  In Hawaii apparently they're attacking it from a different angle by turning it into a sexism issue ("If a man has the right to marry a woman, it's sexist to deny a woman that same right!").  It doesn't ultimately matter how we get there -- real federal objections are going to be raised to try and negate all this, for sure, and it will be a pretty big deal for a while, but separation of church and state basically means the Constitution is with us on this one and the courts are definitely acknowledging that -- and maybe it'll be a little different state-by-state, but yes, the trend is there and it's good to see progress.

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #10 on: May 18, 2008, 11:52:46 PM »
Even though the unbanning of Gay marriage has happened. I would really think that others who try to argue their case on marrying their pets or objects as pretty much illogical, Otter. Mainly for the fact that a person is showing love towards another person whom they want to spend the rest of their lives with.

And although I seemingly am on the fence on this, mainly because my family shares the sentiment that 1 man and 1 women always and forever. And I respect that. I'm not trying to spit on their beliefs either even though I am a Christian as well. I am usually thinking "Why not? You're not going to change them just by banning it."

Anyway, I know Churches are going to freak out about this, but they need to relax as its not a direct attack on them.

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #11 on: May 19, 2008, 05:10:06 AM »
I'll agree with Felpoolian - being a Christian kinda makes it "ehhh" to me, but legal marriage and religious marriage can and should be kept apart from one-another. The separation of church and state has worked pretty well for us so far, and I can see the shitstorm coming from all over the place, but there really isn't a good, secularly legitimate argument against it, unless you want to pull some sort of scientific BS. And since when did human beings listen to biology to govern their lives?
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NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #12 on: May 19, 2008, 05:15:55 AM »
In Hawaii apparently they're attacking it from a different angle by turning it into a sexism issue ("If a man has the right to marry a woman, it's sexist to deny a woman that same right!").

Actually, that was one argument the plaintiffs brought, but the California court shot it down, because, with the current law limiting all persons to being able to marry only a person of the opposite gender, people of both genders receive equal treatment.

One other interesting part of the California case, and this says a lot, I think: the state, in arguing that homosexuality should not be a 'suspect classification' (for which California grants equal protections) does not challenge that homosexuality meets the traditional definition of a class worthy of equal protection.  Instead, they argue that, since homosexuals are able to wield considerable legal and social power, that should disqualify them from needing equal protection.  It's an incredibly flimsy argument, and it was the major basis of their defense.

Did the California AG phone this one in?  Sure seems like it to me.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #13 on: May 19, 2008, 12:44:39 PM »
*general nodage @ all the good points made towards this*

Same sex marriages have been been legal for a while now in the UK and it seems to be working out ok :)
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NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #14 on: May 19, 2008, 01:38:09 PM »
Same here in Massachusetts.  Sure, there are opponents, but gays are marrying and the world hasn't ended yet, so their support is dwindling.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2008, 04:56:14 AM »
Very happy with this ruling. Not too much to add to what has already been said, but more rights are very good. Not touching the issue of religious marriage, but legal marriage between two people should definitely be open to all consenting adult humans. Seems clearly discriminatory if it's not.

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NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2008, 01:36:34 PM »
On a somewhat-related note, and as a further demonstration of how equal rights can be inconvenient to people, a superior US court just ruled that US paper money discriminates against the blind.  We'll see this case before he supreme court in short order, I'm sure.

Suddenly I'm getting a feeling of what it must be like to be opposed to gay marriage.  It makes sense, of course, to change things (in this case, start making differently-sized bills), but goddammit, I don't want to.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2008, 02:22:16 PM »
Although  printing new money, voiding the old money, and circulating the new money will cost us billions of dollars, and letting gays share legal responsibilities and benefits is......... not really that costly.

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2008, 11:08:46 PM »
VSM, you're describing a currency re-issue.  They happen every thirty years or so, and involve redesigned currency.  Shouldn't even be too much of an issue, aside from getting the proper moulds/machines (aka startup) for starting such a blind friendly run.  The only real issue is if they demand the currency is phased out immeadiatly, but that seems silly given that a gradual phasing will get the job done within three-four years of implementation without any social stress at all.

It happened up here with our $1 and $2 dollar bills.  All that happened was that banks only handed out the coins, and any bills they got were exchanged free of charge, and the mint then destroyed the old bills.

NotMiki

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2008, 11:15:56 PM »
the US never voids old money. ever.  Bills aren't designed to last, so redesigning the currency wouldn't, as a practical matter, be a big deal.  I jus' dun' wanna.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2008, 12:07:29 AM »
Australia did that years ago (Easy to design by the way, different sizes works just fine like it does with coins) when they converted to a plastic note.  Went pretty smooth actually.  The old currency went out of the system pretty fast.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2008, 01:31:40 AM »
Different sizes of bills? Madness. What would we do with our old wallets?

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2008, 10:25:52 AM »
Hopefully you would all die of a new strain of syphillis.
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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #23 on: May 26, 2008, 06:04:39 PM »
Um, in this group?  That's probably the least likely way anybody will die.

Second least likely?  Faberge Egg incidents.
« Last Edit: May 26, 2008, 06:09:50 PM by Zenthor »

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Re: Same-sex Marriage in California
« Reply #24 on: May 26, 2008, 06:06:47 PM »
Possibly the new strain would involve wallet-based transmission somehow?
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