Super Mafia Bros Brawl - Game Topic (GAME OVER)

[Excal]

Meep, I don't think we have that kind of luxury.  It may be a bit paranoid here, but I agree with Rat that we need to use that Dayvig before Soppy gets to 100%.  Otherwise, the scum can choose to not only end the day on a mislynch, but they can deprive us of QR's vig kill, or even our ability to confirm that she has it.  And they only expend a member of their choosing to do this.  More to the point, we've already hit the point where Soppy is OHKO fodder.  A smash vote will drive him over 100% and will therefore provide the weight it needs to kill.

Ending the day is not entirely within the hands of scum if they choose to do so, people.

Now, aside from Shale who simply hasn't been showing up, I don't think that there's any point in looking at someone who isn't high up on the vote list.  That means our focus should be on Eph and Captain K.  I'd like to request that the people with their votes somewhere else please drop that concern for the moment, and assist in deciding on those two.

Now, looking at them myself, I've already stated my thoughts on Eph.  And while he has managed to look better since I had those exchanges with him, he's still not looking better than Captain K. to me.

As for the Captain?  I'll admit, I haven't focused too much on the lack of relevant content, and I'll need to reread that stuff.  But his earlier gambit does feel like it's a possible town move for him (sure, a bad one, but still town) and...  well, I don't have a hard feel on him, nor any idea that I'd be able to read him in the future.  But, I just can't convince myself he's scum at the moment.

Moreover, the thought that Captain tried emotional manipulation on us?  Let's not forget that Eph and Bard also tried the exact same stunt, so it's not like it's a black mark for him in this competition.

So, I'm happy to stay with Eph for the dayvig.

[Excal]

That reminds me.  Captain, Eph?  If you have any last words that might change our minds?  Please, for the love of all that's holy, say them now.  I don't want us to find out something useful that could have swayed our decision from your cardflip.

[Ranmilia]

HEY BY THE WAY

Since it's been asked of me a couple of times now....

If you are doing something that you suspect has reasonable probability of killing someone and/or ending the day, post an image of a hammer (preferably the Smash hammer) or giant red text or something letting people know that they should STOP TALKING UNTIL THE SITUATION IS RESOLVED.

Abuse of this function to stall discussion = mod is unhappy, bad times, etc.  Don't do it unless you honestly believe someone will die or the day will end.

Edit - If there are real time based abilities in the game, time spent waiting for me to show up after a stop talking notice is posted will not count towards them, the game is effectively paused.  Also obviously don't talk if you see one of these, even if you think or KNOW the day's not over.

[Sierra]

Wait a moment, I stated I'd gladly take the vigkill? Or even suggested so? I think I clearly stated that I prefer you stay your hand and not kill me - If you must kill me for being suspicious, I rather would survive through the first day because frankly, dying on the first day sucks. Hard. Balls.

Bard, I believe this is what Eph may have been referring to:

As an explanation, let's just say that in previous Mafia games I've played, it wasn't really unheard of to sacrifice yourself (despite being innocent) to narrow down the number of players that would need to be cleared by Cops or Docs. If someone became suspicious in those games, and they were really innocent, they'd willingly allow themselves to get killed so that a Cop wouldn't check their alignment in the consecutive night and thus waste an investigate round due to the other's behaviour causing high suspicion.

First thing I thought of, at least. You did clearly contemplate letting yourself be killed earlier, though not quite in the same context.

[Yakumo]

Wait, what?  The only reason why making a trade of this lynch for a scum would make any sort of sense at all is if one of the people we were about to get rid of was scum anyway.  Why in the world would a scum player we don't suspect want to end the day early when we're about to mislynch someone for them anyway?  Secondly, the Smashvote has to come AFTER he hits 100%.  From the original post:

Under normal circumstances, a Smashvote will immediately KO anyone who is currently at or over 100% damage and end the day.  A Smashvote cast on someone who can't currently be KO'd will count as a normal vote.  You may have only one vote of any kind active at a time.

The only danger here is that one of Captain K and Eph really are scum, and that one pops Soppy when he goes over 100% since he's going to die anyway.  Then we know we've got a scum the next day, so even then it's not like it's a total waste for us.  Why the panic?  Besides, Soppy hasn't exactly been the towniest looking player anyway, and if he's scum, this whole problem is moot.  Yes, it would be better to finish this before the possibility presents itself, but it isn't exactly the end of the world even if it does happen.

[Yakumo]

To clarify, I do think we need to figure this out quickly, I just don't think we want to panic.  Granted, at this point, best option is vig either Eph or Captain K and lynch the other, as nobody else is even close.

[Excal]

Looking back over things, I see you're right.  We're not in danger of it yet.  That said, Yakko, we've already had over two days to make our first pick.  Most mafia games and we'd already be in the night stage having surrendered our lynch.  We need to organise, choose our target, and get something hard to work off of instead of baseless speculation.

And, Yakko.  Who's to say we would get a guaranteed scum out of the deal by focussing on who they defended?  That's bloody WIFOM as they could defend some random townie just to make him more suspicious and get a nice backdrop for Day 3.  More to the point, they also get a benefit by denying us our second lynch, as well as denying us any resolution in the case of the two people we are suspicious of.  Just look at how well it turned out for town in Composer Mafia when the two leading contenders lived.

Sure, it's a gamble, but it's something that could happen.  And I'd rather not let it happen, especially when we have the ability to change that in our hands. 

[Sierra]

Speaking for myself, I'm not going to be around to contribute to this for more than another forty-five minutes or so. This isn't an attempt to rush people, it's just an FYI: if we take too much longer then I'm not going to be able to do any vote-switching (if needed) or contribute to the post-daykill discussion on account of being asleep.

I think I've made my feelings pretty clear, at any rate. Our best target is Captain K., runner-up is Bardiche.I'm not really behind an Eph lynch unless it's the only way to end the day.

[Excal]

Sigh...  and the mildly frenzied note here is less panic and more exasperation.  We've been basically waffling on this one point for the last day, and nothing's come of it.  All the while we've been sliding closer and closer to losing control of when day ends.  Which, granted, wasn't such a big deal before we found out there was a kick ass town power (regardless of which side actually has it, once it's public, it's totally in town's benefit) that could be denied to us before we even get a chance to use it.

More to the point, it's two people who most folks have formed an opinion on by now.  It shouldn't be a rush job to simply pick one of them and move on with some hard info and some places to look.

[Yakumo]

What the hell is that supposed to mean?  I didn't say anything about who they defended.  I'm saying that the only reason for a scum to hit Soppy in this situation is if it is THE SCUM WE ARE ABOUT TO KILL ANYWAY THAT DOES IT.  Nothing else makes a lick of sense, since it's throwing someone that is under virtually no scrutiny under the bus since whoever kills Soppy is dead tomorrow, period.

[Excal]

Y'know, Yakko.  I'd really hope so, but given some of the idiocy I've seen scum get away with here, I'm not gonna go around assuming anything in that regard. 

Especially if one of the two people under attack right now decide to off him.  I mean, it makes sense, right?  Unless both they and Soppy are scum, then the hammerer either knows Soppy isn't on his team, or has no proof one way or the other that Soppy isn't on his team.  And if he's town, living another day to potentially use their power to say something as opposed to killing someone who may or may not be town?  Sweet deal.

Of course, the downside is that that can be claimed regardless of whether or not it's true.  And if Captain K. does it, well...  let's just say that I have a hefty respect for his Bluff Check.  And that means that the belief that we get a guaranteed scum out of a Soppyhammer is a fallacy if the scenario you describe comes to pass.

[QuietRain]

Carth: Yes, I am here.  Had to move furniture in the rugrat's room, but he's in bed now so I am afixed to the comp until this is settled or I have to crash for the night (still a ways off).

Bardiche: Well, my vote does still sit on you.  I find you suspicious.  I'd rather take out Ephraim or CapnK with it, though and let the actual day-ending lynch be either second place in that or someone else that's been racking up the suspicion points since I made my announcement.  If a majority fo town said they'd rather lynch you, make no mistake, I would.  I don't see that happening, though.  Everyone seems pretty set on Ephraim or CapnK from the look of things.  The whole point of using a dayvig power as an extra lynch is that just like a lynch, it's used where the majority of town thinks it best, not just where I think it best.

OK, this power better get used before too much longer.   I'm pushing ahead here in the interest of timing.  We still have our real lynch to coordinate after this and I'd like some time to devote to that.  I'd like to NOT take out a wild card.  There's not much it would tell us when they've not been found suspicious enough to warrant actual votes.  I'd like to tag CapnK or Eph in the next couple of hours.  I'll say midnight by my clock (for everyone else, that's 2 hour and 50 minutes from now).  Right now, I'm leaning Ephraim just due to the fact that he's ahead in the damage department.

[Yakumo]

Alright, I guess technically that's a possibility, but look at what people have been saying the entire game so far about that flower.  Smashing Soppy is suicide.  Unless either Captain K or Eph have extremely useful roles, and if they do they really should be saying  so in the near future, all they do by hitting Soppy is help scum, and I would hope that they would realize that.  Maybe I shouldn't be so optimistic, but that's the way I see things.

On another note, does anyone else want to chime in on my suggestion from earlier that we just off Eph and Captain K, since nobody else is close in voting?  Frankly, I still don't see the case on Eph as anything special, but trying to divert that train is probably futile at this point.  They both have six votes on them, and nobody else has more than two, if I'm not mistaken.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Rat, the more alarming thing you said to me was trying to throw out the possibility that Sopko might -win- if he gets 100%, not really as much the stuff about the hammering which people seemed to have drawn more attention to. (And I absolutely understand where you are coming from with regards to the hammer thing, I did think about that but I guess it is worse than I originally envisioned as a potential idea.)

The thing that bothers me and why I said the bit about usual suspects was because it seems like in pretty much all the Mafia games, all the attention is attracted to the same type of people, and I think this is a fundamentally flawed way of catching scum. It's pretty easy to have a certain type of people who paly the game differently than everyone else, and it's very easy to just target them instead of going through the interactions (about them, even!) and trying to pick someone who seems like they are trying to distort the game into a direction that you don't like. I do embrace the idea of voting on people and getting trains started which adheres to your general philosopshy, but too often, I feel that the town just continues these trains because it's easier than trying to come up with a new target. Because in reality, most scum try -not- to attract attention to themselves in the way that outspoken, militant people who gather votes for shoving their foot in their mouth the first day do.

I feel, for this reason, I am leery of the way things have gone down so far. And after my vote on Rat, I have noticed a number of people chiming in on this point. There was one statement that stood out to me in particular that struck me as "...what" with regards to you, but I'm trying to game and type at the same time at the moment so I'll find it when I'm done.

Simply put, I think that people need to sweat the small stuff, because the big stuff has, in my experience, led to lynched townies. Tis all. (And I generally tend to not be as defeatist about Day 1 as most people; I think things can be found, you just have to look!)

[Nitori]

Regarding the dayvig...

I definitely do think we should use it today. As per my earlier posts, I am more in favor of Capt. K as a lynch target than Eph, and believe that he should be targeted with the dayvig. What I'm not sure about is whether to go through with the actual lynch of Eph. Bard seems to have really thrown his cards to the wind, and he feels about equal to Eph to me at this stage. Obviously, we should take roleclaims from them if we can, although given that the Rat has conveyed  his thoughts on the flower more clearly, it may not be possible.

While I do see the Rat's concerns about the flower now (although it wasn't clear what aspects of the flower he was referring to in the second, later, quoted post of his.), it really doesn't seem much like in the way of something to fear overly unless Soppy is smashed before we use the dayvig power. Given we'll be using that first, I don't think it's too much of a concern (although it still is one.).

[Carthrat]

Ordinarily I'd be against just killing two people, I'd want some discussion in between the shots.

I just don't think that's going to be very viable this time around; we won't have much time except for the briefest of talks. I'm with Yak, I suppose, barring someone throwing out a really, really good case on someone else; speculation and information-gathering pokes aren't really what I'm wanting to see.

<->

Ciato: The thing I said about Sopko was meant to be ridiculous hyperbole over the wildness of potential roles. At that point, it was meant to trivialize, not incite concern and furor. Or paranoia, whatever.

I reconsidered later, but my only real concern with the role is the concrete fact that someone can surprise hammer, not because I'm in a fit about what role madness might actually happen (but rather, the role madness that IS happening. Yeah.)

[Meeplelard]

Since the Day Vig seems between Eph and Capt K at the moment, I'll say that either going is fine by my books.  Unsure who to support; I guess I'll say Captain K since my vote is on Eph currently, and then work accordingly (depending on Captain K's role flip, might get suspicious of someone else, etc.)  Either one works for me though.

[Sierra]

On another note, does anyone else want to chime in on my suggestion from earlier that we just off Eph and Captain K, since nobody else is close in voting?  Frankly, I still don't see the case on Eph as anything special, but trying to divert that train is probably futile at this point.  They both have six votes on them, and nobody else has more than two, if I'm not mistaken.

Pretty much have to agree with this. I think we're talking in circles by this point and something has to break the deadlock. QR can go any time now as far as I'm concerned.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Okay, then I guess I misinterpreted your intent there. Sorry about that.

At this point I also think Captain K is a better target than Eph, so I'll lay my vote there. Being uncooperative to the process isn't something I really want to do and it's clear that the targets that the consensus want are the two outlined.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: Captain K

[QuietRain]

As I said, I have a timer running, so unless something radically changes, I'll vig at midnight my time (about 2 hours and 15-ish minutes).  Right now I think we've got more people thinking a CapnK vig is good over an Ephraim vig.  Or at least that side of the field is yelling louder than those thinking we shouyld vig Ephraim which really boils down to the same thing.  Unless I hear an uproar from the rest of you or a roleclaim against it, at midnight I'll go with that opinion.

[EvilTom]

Catching up, might take me a little while, so many posts >.<

[Lord Ephraim]

I really have nothing else to at this point, because I have so many votes against me and it's clear that we need a end to Day 1 asap.  I was very hesistant in revealing my role, ESPECIALLY now that QR came out of nowhere with the dayvig.  (I wouldn't have really put needless attendition to myself if say, I knew this before my anti-mafiacrab cheese).  So I'll come out now with my role claim.

I am the Town Doctor,  it seems Meta-Knight has a thing for protecting the weak and innocent. Especially gooey pink puff balls (joke here).

Yes, I was roleblocked Night 0 means that now there's no real chance QR is going to escape the NK, if indeed Mafia does have a Roleblocker.

I have to say I knew I should have kept my mouth shut with the importance of my role, but I was just trying to play my way before the whole Rat/Excal/Meeple/Tom OMGUS Eph stuff happened.

[Carthrat]

Huh.

In this particular case, that's good enough for me. I no longer support an Eph lynch.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Cap'n K

[Luther Lansfeld]

*rubs temples* Why are you drawing so much attention to yourself if you are a doctor?

[Meeplelard]

Hmm...yeah, for now, I'll believe you, HOWEVER...

Doesn't Role Blocking only last one night? Well, no, now that Eph Roleclaimed and if he is indeed telling the truth (hard to say this early! For now, though, I have no choice but to believe him), and a role of that power, its unlikely he'll be seeing much use in that ability for obvious reasons.

Either way, its enough to do...

##Unvote: Ephraim

I normally like to have a vote on someone, however, I think I'd prefer waiting for what looks like a Captain K Day Vig to Roleflip, as I figure going based off that would be more intelligent than throwing more votes around.