Super Mafia Bros Brawl - Game Topic (GAME OVER)

[Sierra]

Can I make a small request to those who haven't changed their avatar, to do so? It's not required or anything, it just helps me keep track of who's who in a game with lots of players. Kudos to those who already have

Hah. I was wondering if someone would put out a call for this. All due respect, but I just switched to Dorothy and I mean to keep her for a while. I'm not about to avatar a wretched furry even if it is just for a mafia game.

---

I -was- going to ask whether or not there would be any indication when we'd move past the "loljoek" stage and into the "srs business" stage, but was worried if wanting to get to the action quick would be considered "ohnoez scum"... or something. I dunno. I have an experience of getting lynched first thing regardless of what I do.

Jokevote phase tends to ease into the "This are serious mafia stage" somewhat gradually. Varies each game. Some people (like Rat, as we're seeing) detest the jokevote stage and try to move passed it as quickly as possible. As for Rat's move and the conversation it prompted, I'll deal with that in my next post. This one's mostly for odds and ends.

---

By the way, I find myself looking up every freaking time I post to see if I'm posting with the right account. OH SHIT AM I GOING TO GET MYSELF MODKILLED? Stupid Anon Mafia. <_<

Yeah, you're not alone in that regard. I'm stricken with a bout of paranoia and self-doubt every time I'm about to post something now and start scrolling up before remembering that, wait, I can post as myself now. I blame Laggy.

---

Also, I'd like to draw attention to something people seem to have overlooked:

Although you don't have any deadlines on this mission, the longer it goes on for, the stronger the terrorists can become.  In a situation this wacky, anything could happen, but there are probably no more than eight enemies on the field.

Bolding mine. Eight? What the hell? With eighteen players, I'd expect there to be four scum with maybe a self-aligned player or two. But eight "enemies?" Worst case scenario, this suggests two mafia families (not impossible with a game this crazy). Admittedly the possibility of Nitori being scum (I'm not ruling anyone out this early) skews the numbers even further. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

[Mad Fnorder]

Also, I'd like to draw attention to something people seem to have overlooked:

Although you don't have any deadlines on this mission, the longer it goes on for, the stronger the terrorists can become.  In a situation this wacky, anything could happen, but there are probably no more than eight enemies on the field.

Bolding mine. Eight? What the hell? With eighteen players, I'd expect there to be four scum with maybe a self-aligned player or two. But eight "enemies?" Worst case scenario, this suggests two mafia families (not impossible with a game this crazy). Admittedly the possibility of Nitori being scum (I'm not ruling anyone out this early) skews the numbers even further. Anyone else want to weigh in on this?

I DID notice that. At first I brushed it off as being a question of Otacon being, well, only barely competent, but now I'm reconsidering. There's the potential for things like SK triggers and what-have-you, so eight might be the upper potential ceiling of non-town. Two Families is scary to think of, though. There's also the possibility of some sort of bizarre recruiting third party, to fit with the first part about the longer things going on, the stronger the terrorists become.

[Taishyr]

A quick weigh-in on the events thus far before my mind completely degenerates: (WARNING: May not actually be brief. tl;dr version for the impatient: I find myself mostly agreeing with the flaming ratbird, pointing out where some of the ire drawn by the rat may come from, and try to explain my logic for not pressing on Bardiche/EvilTom currently. This was written piecemeal as I looked the arguments over; please point out any inconsistencies since I'm not proofreading this like I would an essay. Kthx. head feels like it's a new railroad stop, Kirby sleep now.)

And, so it's where people can see it,

##Unvote: Ephraim (As my friends here would say: post moar plox, but I'm willing to pass not being here as often as the rest of us crazy-schedule people. For now.)
##Vote: Sopko (Hi. Please contribute, no random segues. Thanks!)


<(o_o)>\(^^)/<(T_T)>

I do find the offense on EvilTom/Bardiche a bit odd (though only a bit, read on please), since they effectively did what Carthrat had desired... just not on Carthrat's desired target. Admittedly, Bardiche's stance on the vote for the ratbird does not ring correctly to me, either; both Meeple and Cap'n K were looked over by the Rat, so far as I can tell, but Rat seemed to me... ah, hell, lemme dig up relevant lines here;

I was thinking of voting for Meeple or Bardiche for rampant jokevote switching, but Bardiche seems to be a newbie and I think a newbie scum is less likely to toss votes around like that than a newbie town. Meeple seems chatty, has discussed avaliable evidence (trifling as it is), even if did change his vote from Shale to me for no reason and thusly encourage pointless switching.

Instead, I think everyone should pile up on Capn'K. He's already got two votes on him! He switched from Mario to Kirby for no real reason! The other people with two votes on them seem less suspicious to me!

Bolded part is my own emphasis; he said here why his vote was not on Meeple, despite the qualifier afterward. Thus Bardiche's reply later:

So while at the start you say the joke voting must end... You make a mention that Meeple's actions encourage pointless switching, yet at the same time you condemn someone that did exactly that and encourage us to KO them based on the fact that they:

1) Have two votes.
2) Were joke voting.

To me this seems absurd because you are contradicting yourself. You said it was time to focus, and yet your vote seems a joke to me.

##VOTE: Carthrat

seems off a bit. This has been stated by Flaming Ratbird, but you know, feel obligated to cement where I'm coming from on this. The notable lack of response to this reasoning is what is actually making me suspicious, here; looking through, Bardiche has likely not returned to answer yet and EvilTom... 

So, regarding the current fracas, while I do understand the suspicion toward EvilTom/Bardiche and will continue to read through them, my vote is not going to land with either of them, I do not think.


<(-_-)><(^_^)><(@_@)>


A few other things as I read...

I feel (seconding Yakko), that both Tom and Bardiche have slightly overevaluated this play...but Tom, in his post, implies that "the game has just begun", and that that is somehow too early for "serious" content. Can I have some clarification on this~?

##UNVOTE: Carthrat
##VOTE: EvilTom

Main issue with this segment is that while EvilTom does indeed say the game has just begun in the relevant, not-well-quoted line (I'll link the post below for reference), I am not sure he is declaiming the current content as "not serious" so much as "not enough". Arguably a fine-tooth distinction, but it took me a while to figure out what Nitori was even getting at here, since I could not see what he was reading from it.

Reading on, AndrewRogue said the same thing but with less explanation behind it, and Excal... challenges it! Okay. Since I find myself currently around that stance, I feel compelled to respond at least in part;

Rat's original statement, and part of what I think drew Bardiche's and EvilTom's votes (though I am forced to extrapolate this) is in part the phrasing Rat himself used, emphasizing all statements with exclamation points, effectively using the imperative form of voice to state this.

I, myself, with a decent guess at the diction, went "okay this is somewhat lighthearted effort to get us to swing our attention into more concentrated mores. Fair enough." However, there is never only one reading for anything. If there was we wouldn't have English majors and that would make Alex and I very, very sad. I would guess that Bardiche and EvilTom saw the imperative tone and went "uh dude pot calling kettle black at 12 o clock", to, ah, estimate the tone with a light-hearted form.

My main reasons for guessing this was part of the motivation are...

Bardiche:

Also, Carthrat. I must note I find it a little suspicious you vote to pile up on Cap'n K. Especially since we already have a a pile-up on you as well.

...

Why would Cap'n K be a more solid choice of a first round lynch than you? You are equally, if not more suspicious. To me, anyway. It seems a bit absurd that one with two votes on 'em already would quickly call for a vote on someone in the same boat.

EvilTom:

('Instead, I think everyone should pile up on Capn'K.... Get yours in now!').

...

Ah ninja'd by Rat.

Rat, it's supicious because you're both on 2 joke votes, and you call for a lynch train on the other guy. Yes we know you're not going to call for one on yourself, thankyou for stating the obvious >.>

Both people, at the parts I have referenced, have addressed Rat's statements in the second manner and not the first; based on Rat's later posts, I feel my interpretation was the intended one, but quite possibly not the one that got across. EvilTom's later posts further reaffirm my suspicions of how he read Rat's post as more of a "lynch this person naow" and not the prod I feel it was intended as, whether it was honest or EVIL DIRTY FILTHY WORTHLESS SCU-

sorry, I lost my equanimity there for a moment, but I believe I've made my point on this issue? From what I see, Excal/EvilTom branches off this; EvilTom read Rat's post his way, Excal read it likely about the same way I did, and the attack sprung from this; EvilTom sees his post as justified due to his interp. of the post, while Excal reads the post without this interp in mind and finds it questionable. Any objections to this analysis, either of you, and Rat as well since this is also part of his rationale for voting EvilTom?

Finally, re: Otacon's message, I'm not even remotely willing to try and guess what the hell is going on here just yet.

[Sierra]

First off, Rat's "This are serious mafia" post:

Votes have been spread around to little effect, and a few people are going above and beyond the virtually-mandatory early jokevote to have multiple jokevotes. Rather than spreading stuff everywhere, I think we may as well start, uh, focusing.

I was thinking of voting for Meeple or Bardiche for rampant jokevote switching, but Bardiche seems to be a newbie and I think a newbie scum is less likely to toss votes around like that than a newbie town. Meeple seems chatty, has discussed avaliable evidence (trifling as it is), even if did change his vote from Shale to me for no reason and thusly encourage pointless switching.

Instead, I think everyone should pile up on Capn'K. He's already got two votes on him! He switched from Mario to Kirby for no real reason! The other people with two votes on them seem less suspicious to me! Pileups are more exciting than stand-alone singular votes for random people! Get yours in now!

This is pretty normal behavior for Rat regardless of which side he's on. The issue (as determined by people reacting adversely to this post) is whether he intended the post as an actual attempt to lynch Captain K. I have trouble reading it as such; the exclamation marks alone in that last paragraph make me read it as a conversation-starter rather than a soberly reasoned call to KO el capitan, especially as there's almost never substantial evidence supporting someone's lynch after just twenty-four hours of play anyway. Bardiche's analysis of Rat's post particularly seems off. I think Rat made it pretty clear that he opted for a CK vote over a Meeple vote precisely because Meeple had at least made an effort to address something seriously (even if it was fundamentally a mechanical issue that Meeple discussed). Tom is also suspicious for making too much of this, characterizing it as a genuine attempt to get CK killed rather than an attempt to kickstart serious discussion (which I believe it was, and which it seems to have done). Suggesting that Rat was trying to divert suspicion to someone else is even stranger: Rat had two votes on him, far from the KO point, and both of them were jokevotes anyway. Jokevotes do not constitute pressure, so I cannot see this as Rat's motivation. In sum, I'm finding Rat's accusers more odd than Rat himself.

So:

##Unvote: Captain K.

No point in sticking with the jokevote. As noted, I don't see much reason to find him suspicious right now (though it'd be nice to get his reaction to this conversation that started, however tangentially, with him) and Rat's call for a train has ironically produced more intriguing candidates than the person Rat decided to train. Moving on to them, then:

However, you can tell he wasn't aiming for a lynch in that he didn't really go for the throat.

How can you tell? To Bardiche and myself it obviously looked like he was, we put down votes as such.

It was the exclamation marks that did it for me. That's not how you make a case for someone you genuinely feel should be lynched. Any statement that includes that many of them is going to look like hyperbole to me. As for how suspicious this makes me of Bardiche and Tom? As always, I allow for the possibility that their reactions stemmed from a simple misreading. What makes them look worse is that both backed their vote with wobbly logic about Rat trying to divert pressure from himself. I don't find it realistic that someone would feel sufficiently threated by two votes on day one to do this. That's what looks off to me. Bardiche sticking with his vote after Rat explained his CK vote looks worse to me right now, though.

##Vote: Bardiche

Also making a note here that I find Andy's Nitori vote rather odd. I don't think Nitori's analysis was that far off, so Andy's reaction looks wonky as a result. This is something I might need to come back to later.

---

PS, Sopko.  You mind not just randomly dropping in and making non sequitirs?  If you want to post, then say something about what's going on, or make some real observations, will you?

I third the motion. C'mon, Soppy, do you just think there's nothing worth commenting on right now, or what? Popping in and tossing off a one-liner with no regard for context is irksome and I'd like to prod Soppy for more content. I've only got one vote, but...fortunately I have my patented Annoying Blaster Spam just for situations like this.

##Shoot: Soppy

EDIT: Ugh, ninja'd by Tai. Will look at that in a moment.

[Meeplelard]

The 8 enemy thing struck me to but...I don't know what to make of it.  Alex stated that this game was going to be role heavy right from the sign up topic, so 2 Scum Families seems possible, its also possible there are loads of Self Aligneds running around.

Regarding my Vote on Rat...yeah, it was a joke vote.  Mostly cause I'm annoyed he hasn't been roleplaying Ike in the least like everyone else is making some effort for! (how dare you not shout "Aether!!!" at least once <_<.)
I kept my vote on him mostly cause, well, I don't like removing votes for no reason.  This is day 1; even if its a joke vote, we still have nothing to go on...besides the fact that Soppy has a Flower on his head and his life is slowly deteriorating at intervals we don't know.

Though, it occurs to me...does anybody have any take to what this says about Soppy?  Granted, its a very hard thing to read.  You could say "Oh, he's town, hit by a scum power!" but...well, that's flawed logic; the ability is too much a dead give away if it were scum in that regard, as it'd be painting someone as not scum, and scum would have to pray that the day lasts long enough so he gets smash voted.  So...yeah...lets analyze the 3 potential natures of this ability!

A. Scum ability.  Probably means we have two Scum Families.  This isn't to say the scum families know that there is another in existence of course.  This would just be a way to make things more insane, which is the point of this mafia I assume.  As I said, if this is a scum ability, its too easy of a way to paint people as Not Scum unless they're bold enough to Flower one of their own, to try and remove suspicion.  For this reason alone, I say we NEVER assume Flower = Removal of Suspicion, scum ability or not.
B. Town Ability.  Makes sense, since its an abilities whose effect plays most balanced when blind, I suppose.  Its kind of a slow vig in a sense, if you look at it from another side. Flower someone, hope the day lasts a while, Smash vote them.  Not weighing in on the effect of strategies, etc.
C. Third Party Ability.  I don't have to explain this; ITPs are all wild cards in every sense, they exist to screw around with everyone and everything.

...yeah, my conclusion is that I can't get any sort of read from soppy, one way or another, regarding the Flower.  Too damn early to tell.  This post was probably a waste of time anyway.

Anyway, thoughts on recent events?

Soppy...has decided not to post anything worth content after we are clearly starting some serious stuff.  Merely calls Ciato out (in a nonMafia way, I mean) for being paranoid due to the psychological events of Anon Mafia.  Not a scum tell, but it'd be a good time to point out that we're kind of past the joke phase <_<

The whole Rat thing, for lack of a better description...
Like I said, my vote was a joke vote, I only kept it cause I wanted my vote to stay somewhere, and seemed like a train was starting on Rat.  Why bother hurting some way that can start discussion?  This followed up with a bit of a Tom Train (3 votes on him pretty fast; too lazy at the moment to check if there were any others, but they'd be joke votes so yeah), and *gasp* Serious Discussion has started!  No one is promoting a Quick Lynch; people are promoting early trains.  Andrew says Finali is misinterpreting Tom...yes, there is some misinterpretation coming in...
But its not from Finali, its from Tom.  He said he's against a Quick Lynch...but Rat never promoted that.  Especially since in a game like this, you can get lots of votes on you, and Hammer only occurs under a different style. 

I don't necessarily see Tom as scum though.  From my experience he has a way with slips like this, on either side.  Fire Emblem Mafia, for example, he tried calling people out for voting against GTAU when he was called for a Modkill, when those who had votes on him had not voted since the Modkill announcement, which made him look really bad (as in, he clearly wasn't paying full attention), then tried to rationalize that mistake with oddball logic.  Yeah, what's happening here isn't quite the same, but I'm not certain its enough to go on.

*FLIPSIDE*, its Day 1, so there really isn't much to work with at the moment ANYWAY.

My vote stays on Rat.  Again, I just like keeping a vote on someone, and I don't feel any need to go after Tom quite yet; reason to vote him is to get him talking, rationalizing his thoughts, etc...and that's exactly what's been happening.  Don't feel another vote on him will do any good when I'm not really much of any strong vibes (again, though, Day 1; I wouldn't be shocked if most people, even those voting on him, are in a lack of vibes situation.)

EDIT: ARGH! Ninja'd by *3* posts? Mrf!  My Pokemon are not happy about that!

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 12% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 24% - Sopko, Ephraim
Carthrat (Ike): 24% - Meeple, Bardiche, Nitori
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 36% - QuietRain, Yakumo, El Cid, Andrew
Shale (Mario): 0% - , Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 0% - Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 12% - Captain K, Bardiche
El Cid (Falco): 12% - Strago, Taishyr
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 43% - Taishyr, Carthrat
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 0% - , Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 0% - Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 12% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 12% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 36% - Nitori, Excal, Carthrat

Bardiche's vote for Nitori (Snake) was not counted due to failure to unvote first.
EvilTom's vote for Carthrat (Ike) was not counted due to failure to unvote first.

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

[Meeplelard]

Ok, after the vote count, I can deduce this!

Intervals of 5% is not the case.  There's something else afoot here!  Why?

Soppy has one Vote on him.  12%!  But he has 43% damage on him.  43% - 12% = 31%! NOT AN INTERVAL OF 5%!

...except that Cid's got another action: Falco's Gun.  He shot Soppy! That's 1% damage, IIRC in Smash mechanics.  This...seems like a way for Cid to get extra vote strength, but done in a manner that its not too broken.  So yeah, that's probably where that extra 1% came from.

Now, analyzing the time between vote counts...

At 10:09 PM last night Central (I'm guessing that's what my settings are at? Not sure why!), Soppy had 10%! Worth noting that 2 hours earlier, he had 22%, which means its the same 10% from the Flower, which is probably more relevant.

9:30 AM Today, he has 20% more.  That's a total of 13 hours.  My guess is Soppy gains 5% every 3 hours, which would mean 40% after a fully 24 hours.  I'm merely speculating, mind.

Why am I so bent on figuring out this flower?  Cause it helps us get an idea of how much time we have to work with before someone is forced into SMASH range.  I'm going to keep time tabs on vote counts and such and see if they sync with up with my theory.  Yeah, yeah, I'm looking too deep into the flower, but unless the person who caused it randomly role claims soon, and actually knows exactly how the flower works (I can so see Alex having said "You can add Flowers to someone's head! The effect is negative to that person, but I'm not telling them *HOW* its negative!")

So...yeah, that's just my thought at the moment.  I do agree that Soppy should weigh in some manner.  Not posting is one thing; posting and having no content is another.  Especially since he's the guy whose slowly dying.  I would not object to going after him if, based on Flower Poison damage ALONE, his % gets too high, especially if he doesn't actually speak content.

I have not much else to add.

[Sierra]

Going back and looking over the flower thing again, after the recent votecount. Disregard if you don't think it's worth commenting on, but I wanted to record it somewhere. Breaking it down by elapsed time first:

3 hours in: extra 5%
5 hours in: extra 10%
7 hours in: extra 10%
18.5 hours in: extra 30%

Going by postcount (disregarding mod posts, since Alex has stated votecounts have nothing to do with it and I'm assuming Alex wouldn't implement a mechanic that's exacerbated by the freaking mod's presence):

14 posts: extra 5%
28 posts: extra 10%
33 posts: extra 10%
42 posts: extra 10%
73 posts: extra 30%

Note that I'm discounting the extra 1% that showed up on him in the latest votecount. That is indeed from my Shoot command, as per my role PM. Anyway, going by votecount, it doesn't work out as a linear progression. I think it's more likely to be by raw game-time elapsed. Could be every three hours, but that doesn't really work out with some of the earlier benchmarks. It'll be easier to sort out when we have more voecounts down.

EDIT: Gah, ninja'd by Meeple on the same topic.

[Captain K.]

##UNVOTE: Taishyr

I'm honestly not reading anyone as scum right now.  It's tempting to OMGUS Carthrat, but I can't fault his desire to get something started.  I think the Rat/EvilTom/Bardiche/whoever thing is just a misunderstanding, not a scumtell.

Cid, since you're openly displaying that power, can you give us more detail on it?  How often can you use it?  Is it always 1% damage?

And Snake's power to call Otacon seems fairly straightforward, but is there any more information on it as well?

And while we're on the subject of powers, did anyone learn anything in Night Zero that they want to reveal?

After seeing Falco's power, I am now jealous because I did not get the ability to Taunt for 1% damage. 

[Bardiche]

Whoah whoah, whoah! Being away due to sleep is considered a "suspicious" act now? Good heavens, I see that the masses disagree with my reasoning already.

Okay, so the arguments I hear here is that people don't seem to follow my logic, based on that Carthrat was "trying to get games going" and "you don't use exclamation marks when you want someone lynched". The last one... I really don't get Meeple. But it shows one thing: I don't know how any of you play, so I have no idea what your standard mode of operation is.

To me, using exclamations or no is no way to indicate whether someone is serious or not: Rather, if you use those exclamations as a justification for Carthrat not making a serious attempt at training someone, it still contradicts Carthrat in that he (she?) said that Cap'n K should be trained on simply for making joke votes. I already stated I found it contradicting that the consecutive vote Carthrat put forth doesn't much have the allure of a serious vote either.
Hypothetical situation: If I were a scum (not saying I'm not, but I could still be!) and everyone knew how I act as a scum and as a townie, I'd do my best to make it come off as though I am a townie. Carthrat behaving "as normal" isn't, at all, a satisfactory reason to me to wholly drop my suspicions based on the points I raised earlier (and am raising now).

I'd like to remind you that Carthrat stated, explicitly, that he thinks training on someone at the start is a good thing. From my experience, training someone is voting on someone in large quantity without solid base of arguments to justify your voting until that person has been eliminated from the game. My apologies, then, if my interpretation of a train differs from that of Carthrat.

Thus my belief that Carthrat is more suspicious than either Meeple or Cap'n K. Perhaps I'm just paranoid and reading into this too much. Over-analyzation, as one of you put it.

Still, I'd like to address the points of all those that have seemingly decided that my suspicions on Carthrat are unfounded, or at least not satisfactory enough:

Bardiche, what exactly is your point in that last post?  Carthrat wasn't leaving Meeple alone because he was encouraging switching, he said that while both players were doing that, Meeple was at least putting in some content related to the game, and Captain K said nothing that really mattered at all.  Also, even if he hadn't mentioned that at all, what would you expect him to do, vote for both of them?  Oh wait, he can't.  So... I guess I don't follow any of your logic.  Care to explain a bit?

Of course. Logically, if I were to be trained (as it turns out, I have three votes and am tied with the only person to agree with me) I would try to tell others to vote on the person with the most votes beside me. Why? To save my own skin, of course. Just as well, Carthrat could've attempted to begin a serious assault on someone based on serious argumentation that has nothing whatsoever to do with Cap'n K's jokeful demeanor from earlier.
It just doens't sit well with me that Carthrat is trying to lynch someone based on jokevoting, by casting a jokevote on that person, all the while stating that we should enter the serious business stage and cease jokevoting.

Bardiche: You're correct in that Meeple and Cap'n K both did a similar (bad) thing in switching around jokevotes. The reason I want to stick with Cap'n over switching to Meeple is that Meeple actually contributed a bit of theorizing and discussion to the game. I said this twice already, where's the contradiction?

The thing that sits me wrongly about this is that you first said, Meeple also encourages pointless vote switching, (which, to me, seems like something you'd not want to be done), and then proceed to vote on someone who had joke voted alongside others.

However, you can tell he wasn't aiming for a lynch in that he didn't really go for the throat.

I couldn't tell. To me, not going for the throat seems like a win/win.
1) If you're lucky, people'll follow your vote.
2) If you're not, you can say you weren't that serious about it anyway and abandon it.

Not feeling strongly about a vote has always raised a spark of suspicion with me. Again, I could be paranoid, but that's the first thing that sent all my Jiggly-vibes into a constant spidey sense state.

----------------------------------

Now it seems I garnered quite some suspicion from suspecting Carthrat, and it makes me feel awfully ironic, given that it is a similar situation in which I called Carthrat for. When I voted for Carth, I initially stated that I had no intent to remove this vote unless a more satisfactory response was given that would alleviate my suspicions.
While I understand some others want to rush to Carthrat's defense and speak up for him why it wasn't suspicious, I still haven't found anything in Carthrat's actions that makes me feel less suspicious. In fact, others pouncing on me and defending Carthrat against Tom and my suspicions almost looks like a mafia family getting together to protect their mate.

Of course, this could be seen as an interpretation... And with three votes on myself, I'm not sure whether I want to keep pressing this matter and get KO'ed early on because of my mere suspicions.

##UNVOTE: Carthrat

Still, I feel that now that my suspicion of Carthrat has been sufficiently noted, we can move on towards other people who might, to you, seem more scummy. I'd like to highlight Excal for a moment:

The real strike against you, is in the fact that you are condemning him for taking action, and most importantly, stress that now is no time to pile votes onto a few people, nor do you present any alternative for prompting us into useful discussion.  And it is the lack of alternatives while condemning him for taking action that I take issue with.

In essence, Tom and I did exactly what Carthrat 'suggested', except that we voted on Carthrat rather than Cap'n K. We voted on Carthrat with what we felt to be genuine, based suspicions: And now you are calling us out for doing exactly that? Should we, instead, have voted on Cap'n K, all as Carthrat suggested, or should we have piled on someone who voted on Cap'n K?

Excal, I'd like to hear from you just what course of action you feel should've been more appropriate in that situation then. If my suspicion of Carthrat is something to suspect me about, and if Tom's support of my suspicion is something to suspect him for, I'd like to know what course of action we should've taken that would be considerably less suspicious than acting on the thing that made us wary the most.


------------

Cap'n K ninja'd my long post with an alternative discussion! A call to stop focusing on Carthrat/Bardiche/Evil Tom and start focusing on powers? Not sure what to read of it.




whoah, tl;dr post? I seem to garble my thoughts a lot...

[Sierra]

Captain: It's once per day, always 1%. Unless Alex lied to me, of course. Not that he'd do that.

I have no other role-related info I wish to share, and day one seems a very odd time to ask since someone stating what they learned the night before necessarily involves a roleclaim. I'm not inclined to do so unless there's a wide movement for mass claiming.

Nothing much else to comment on right now. I'm willing to consider the Rat/Bardiche/Tom thing a big misinterpretation clusterfuck, but I'll need to see more from Bardiche before unvoting.

EDIT: Whoa, Bardiche ninjas with a Postus Maximus. Give me a bit to read this.

[Captain K.]

Yeah, I didn't figure anyone would want to give out their Night Zero information yet.  But it doesn't hurt to ask!  Unless, of course, it does hurt to ask.  Which happens a lot around here.

Looking back through posts, I see another power that I didn't recognize as a power before.  Kirby's inhale/regurgitate combo.  Details please?

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 12% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 24% - Sopko, Ephraim
Carthrat (Ike): 12% - Meeple, Nitori, Bardiche
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 36% - QuietRain, Yakumo, El Cid, Andrew
Shale (Mario): 0% - , Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 0% - Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 0% - , Bardiche, Captain K
El Cid (Falco): 12% - Strago, Taishyr
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 48% - Taishyr, Carthrat
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 0% - , Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 0% - Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 12% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 12% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 36% - Nitori, Excal, Carthrat

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

[Bardiche]

Given how Kirby's powers in Smash Bros works, and his request for a Hat... I am tempted to believe it allows him to see what powers we have? I'm not sure.

As far as the flower goes, it seems a bit dangerous, to me, if it were in scummy hands. I'm not sure who to suspect yet, either...

So far we know Falco's ability and Snake's ability, and of course everyone is aware of their own abilities... Given that everyone has one. I'm thoroughly interested in what kind of madness might occur from this.

What I'm still most worried about is whether the flower is an ability that was activated and, if so, if it has multiple uses or not. Seems to me that if scum has that ability, they could easily disable some of the more dangerous roles... Its use in the first round seems to me an indication it could be multi-use, since there really isn't anyone to pin right from the get-go.

[Sierra]

In essence, Tom and I did exactly what Carthrat 'suggested', except that we voted on Carthrat rather than Cap'n K. We voted on Carthrat with what we felt to be genuine, based suspicions: And now you are calling us out for doing exactly that? Should we, instead, have voted on Cap'n K, all as Carthrat suggested, or should we have piled on someone who voted on Cap'n K?

Speaking personally, my main reason for jumping on both of you is that you supported your attacks with details I felt to be irrelevant: 1) Suggesting that Rat was trying to create a diversion when there was no real pressure on him in the first place; 2) ignoring what Rat actually specified was his reason for picking Captain K over Meeple.

For the first point, I can't consider two votes significant cause for someone to need to divert attention from himself, especially on day one in a large game. The votes against him were clearly joke votes anyway. I can't accept this as an explanation of his post, and suggesting that it is a valid one makes me believe you're reaching for extra reasons to condemn someone.

As for the second point...well, you're still pressing that, even after Rat repeated his criteria for choosing CK. From your last post:

The thing that sits me wrongly about this is that you first said, Meeple also encourages pointless vote switching, (which, to me, seems like something you'd not want to be done), and then proceed to vote on someone who had joke voted alongside others.

Rat pretty clearly said that Meeple was the lesser target because he at least had attempted to contribute to serious discussion (even if it was simply observing gameplay mechanics rather than the behavior of the players). While both Meeple and CK had jokevoted, Rat compared the two and judged CK a better option on account of that detail. He's even repeated this. I'm not sure how it isn't clear by now, and the fact that you keep pressing this is what makes your whole argument seem wrong. It's not simply attacking Rat that makes you suspicious, it's using shoddy arguments to justify it.

---

As for Kirby's talk about "hats," I'd wager he has some manner of power-copying at his disposal. Something that lets him mimic other players in some fashion, at least. Although I dislike speculating too openly about roles early on, Tai has made it clear that he has some kind of strange daytime ability.

...And Soppy's up another five percent. Yeah, 5% every three hours seems right.

[Bardiche]

Well, I guess I find those details relevant. Perhaps I'm just wording something wrongly, because by the heavens it makes sense to me. I guess I'm the only one that interpreted how Carthrat said "she's encourage pointless vote switching" as being something he finds unacceptable and find it odd to elect to choose someone who's not done anything worthy of either suspicion or clearance.

Of course, if you still feel you should press your vote on me, then I feel there is only little I can do about that. Probably, had I known it'd turn out this way, I'd have not acted at all, but alas. I already explained my belief on Carthrat, and if you find it to be an inacceptable list of arguments... I can hardly go out and reach for any others, as the reasons I had were the ones I presented. To me, my suspicion of Carthrat remains justified.

I've made an err in assessment of the correct course of actions and have failed to correctly portray my stance by submitting arguments which are deemed faulty. I recognize this err and am prepared to face the consequences, so if you feel my present actions have all tallied up to be worthy of lynching me, then by all means, I will bear no grudgings against you if you so do.

[Yakumo]

I'd just like to point out, Bardiche, that when I said this was normal for Carthrat, I mean he does it all the time, regardless of whether he's scum or not; not that he normally only does it when he's playing town.  Thus, I can't use it as a scumtell, but it isn't a town tell either, I just don't calculate it.  I can see where you might have gotten that from but it isn't what I intended.

I don't have much time, only on a break, but I'd like to quickly smack Captain K for rolefishing this early, Meeple for getting a bit overboard on the flower issue almost to the exclusion of scumhunting.  Bardiche... mrf.  I don't really like your reasoning, two out of like 10 votes needed is way too early to panic, for one.  I'll break this down more at lunch, out of time right now.

[QuietRain]

...but Tom, in his post, implies that "the game has just begun", and that that is somehow too early for "serious" content. Can I have some clarification on this~?

As you can see, I never said serious discussion was bad. I said that a quicklynch train was a bad idea early in the game.
Nitori, sorry for the confusion if it was unclear.

I find this logic a bit off.  At no point did Carth say or even imply that he wanted to actually push a lynch on CapnK.  I don't think the idea was ever to specifically lynch him so much as it was to get a conversation going by pressuring someone/anyone to get us out of jokevote and into serious conversation (which he has done quite well).  I think you're looking at this words through different colored glasses than perhaps you should have been.  Now, if Carth had said that we should all get down to the serious business of lynching someone, his words could have been taken in the light you're suggesting because it's way to early to say that someone is scummy enough to lynch.  

Getting everyone talking has provided us with a lot of new content to view and it's starting to get people to open up enough to get a feel for alignment.  And there are a few red-tinged flags emerging.  I think that your comment was one in my eyes.  I can't see his words in the light you paint them.

Oh, as I don't think the jokevote phase is really in full force anymore:
##Unvote Bardiche

Gate and I are heading out soon with Laggy to check out the house we're using for DL Con, so I prolly won't be back until very late tonight or tomorrow when I get back to work.

[Meeplelard]

I don't have much time, only on a break, but I'd like to quickly smack Captain K for rolefishing this early, Meeple for getting a bit overboard on the flower issue almost to the exclusion of scumhunting.  Bardiche... mrf.  I don't really like your reasoning, two out of like 10 votes needed is way too early to panic, for one.  I'll break this down more at lunch, out of time right now.

The Flower thing? Well, mechanically, I noted why figuring out how it works, even if its only how it works today, helps us since it helps gauge just how much time we have.  Knowing that Soppy is going to be at 100% in 60 hours regardless of votes means that if the day lasts that long (these are limitless days, right?), someone can just Smashvote him on the spot to end the day.  Not saying someone WILL do that, but its there (doing that would be a bold and possibly stupid move though; near as I can tell, most people announce the intent to hammer before doing so just to make sure others are fine by it, etc.)

As for the scum tell thing? That was just me thinking out loud, and working some thoughts out early to figure out how the role would be useful for the three scenarios.  I was trying to arbitrarily piece things together, putting up potential scenarios.  Given the nature of the Flower in Smash, though, I can't see it as "Mod randomly applies it!" and its probably related to some role.  My conclusion was basically "Yeah, this isn't getting anywhere helpful without any other information."

Call it over analyzing on Day 1...frankly, yes, it is! I don't deny that! But I had to get it off my chest and wanted to take at least a different angle on things.  It was completely unsuccessful in the grand scheme of things though.

Regarding Tai's eating ability...
I...don't know what to make of it at the moment.  Seems all he did was eat Falco, regurgitate, saying he didn't get a hat!  Either the hat thing is just him role playing Kirby in the sense of "Falco doesn't give Kirby a hat, he just gains a new hairstyle!" type thing, or he was using "Hat" to reference "Power"...yeah, too early to say. 

...I should stop speculating regarding this stuff, it seems like its dangerous to make assumptions, especially this early.

[Captain K.]

I don't have much time, only on a break, but I'd like to quickly smack Captain K for rolefishing this early,

I didn't specifically ask for roles, just information.  For example, Soppy could say that he got a mod message about being attacked by X, resulting in the flower.

Sorry if I'm dragging too much out too soon, but we don't have a lot to go on at this point.  Even if there are 8 scum/non-town, odds are still more likely that a townie will get lynched today.

[Strago]

Okay. So. I'll remove my joke vote, first of all. Furry solidarity is important, I guess?

##UNVOTE: El Cideon

I was about to make a call for some of our lurkers to get out here and start more posting, but the it occurred to me what a short amount of time we've all been playing to begin with. That and the fact that last night was still almost entirely joke-town, and that Sunday morning/afternoon is just not likely to be a time of huge activity. Certainly not for 100% of players, at least. So that's sort of a wash, at least for now.

Since the big tussle that's going to define Day 1 is already pretty clearly underway, I'd be remiss not to weigh in on that. At this point I'm already a little bit exhausted by its particular semantics, such as the words had over whether an exclamation point is indicative of true intent to lynch or not. My main feeling on this whole issue is that these Day 1 firestorms, in my experience, seem to be almost always Town v. Town disagreements. I mean, it just makes a lot of sense, ja? Townies are on the look-out for scummy behavior. That's what they need to be doing. And, especially on Day 1 you're certainly more likely to jump on someone accusing you of scumminess than to roll over for them. This only really becomes bad play when you start knee-jerk revenge voting instead of explaining why they're wrong. The point of my rambling is that while this is all going on, scum don't have to do anything! They can just chill out to the side and lob a vote when it doesn't put them in any danger! So yeah, don't give in to Day 1 tunnel-vision.

That being said, two things Bardiche has said have actually pinged my admittedly rusty radar. The first:

Hypothetical situation: If I were a scum (not saying I'm not, but I could still be!) and everyone knew how I act as a scum and as a townie, I'd do my best to make it come off as though I am a townie. Carthrat behaving "as normal" isn't, at all, a satisfactory reason to me to wholly drop my suspicions based on the points I raised earlier (and am raising now).

First off, the whole hypothetically examining what one would do as scum was always struck me as a relatively useless WIFOM game. Second, the sentence I bolded. I'm certainly no Freudian in my general practice, but slips like this can definitely be telling.

Second thing:

I've made an err in assessment of the correct course of actions and have failed to correctly portray my stance by submitting arguments which are deemed faulty. I recognize this err and am prepared to face the consequences, so if you feel my present actions have all tallied up to be worthy of lynching me, then by all means, I will bear no grudgings against you if you so do.

Passive aggressive acquiescence always initially reads as scumlike (stoborical? terroristacular?) to me. If you're Town, especially this early on when your lynching is not anything close to a foregone conclusion yet, you have a responsibility to fight harder than that. You're town! You win if town wins even if you're dead! It seems like a ploy for pity, some sort of cry of selflessness, but that's a trap because it's better to fight for yourself as a townie than let someone who could easily be scum get a pass.

That being said, I don't know if I want to vote for Bardiche yet, because of the feeling that all of this could easily be an unintentional smokescreen and that scums could be benefitting from it. So who else looks bad, to me?

Captain K., for rolefishing. If people had important things to say, they would say 'em.

People who I just don't feel have contributed much of worth, at this point, are... Ciato, Ephraim, Shale, Andrew. Well, more specifically, they're the people who haven't contributed much and also haven't been called out by someone else for it, as far as I can see. But there just hasn't been that much time yet, either. So... I don't feel too strongly about those ones just yet.

Bleh. The last thing that occurs to me is that I tend to believe that Nitori's message from Otacon ought to be taken at face value. Somewhat, at least. First of all, I believe that to be a real message from Alextacon simply because it strikes me as an incredibly powerful scum ability to make an anonymous post of that length. Not entirely sure how tenable speculation along those lines is, but it's where my thinking lies. Also, if Nitori were scum it seems like he'd have a hell of a lot more than 8 enemies in the game right now. Since, you know. 10 non-town players seems a bit off the wall. Of course, "off the wall" is still very much a possibility as well. Argh, the point is that Otacon has implied that these "terrorists" get stronger the longer we go without SMASHing someone, and that does not sit well with me. And so... bah, despite my reservations against voting Bardiche, he has also set off alarms for me. And so I think I'm going to scratch him in the face.

##VOTE: Bardiche

Awroooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo.

[Strago]

... now that I think about it? The references to both "terrorists" and "stobor" in Otacon's post makes me think it's... very likely that their are two scum groups in play here. So, no idea what that means for us for now, but I guess we should all keep it in mind as a possibility.

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 12% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 24% - Sopko, Ephraim
Carthrat (Ike): 12% - Meeple, Nitori, Bardiche
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 36% - Yakumo, El Cid, Strago, Andrew, QuietRain
Shale (Mario): 0% - , Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 0% - Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 0% - , Bardiche, Captain K
El Cid (Falco): 0% - , Taishyr, Strago
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 53% - Taishyr, Carthrat
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 0% - , Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 0% - Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 12% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 12% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 36% - Nitori, Excal, Carthrat

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

[Hunter Sopko]

Heh. End of Day 1 jokevote is always fun. People always get their panties in a wad about something. Normal stuff, but Meeple strikes me as making a lot more out of the situation than he should.

Comes in at about 10:30, picking up on the lurking/content thing about me 1-2 other people have already called on, and runs with it. Fine. 15 minutes later he AGAIN calls on me for lurking... with only an Alex vote between them. I find the obsession mostly in the right place, since figuring out the flower is rather important to the game, it looks like. But after his original 10:30 post, it has given his posts the semblence of actual content even if he hasn't really weighed in on anyone else in that timeframe. And no,

Regarding Tai's eating ability...
I...don't know what to make of it at the moment.  Seems all he did was eat Falco, regurgitate, saying he didn't get a hat!  Either the hat thing is just him role playing Kirby in the sense of "Falco doesn't give Kirby a hat, he just gains a new hairstyle!" type thing, or he was using "Hat" to reference "Power"...yeah, too early to say. 

doesn't count. Getting a bad vibe of OMGUS from him. It's a big deal to get discussion started, but scum can do this too. Making too big a deal about it never sits right.

As for the Rat thing, I don't particularly agree with either side. Bardiche's argument is shoddy, but if you can really come out with something better or something completely justified at that point in the game, you either know something (as town), are scum, or someone is being really obvious.

Also, rolefishing Day 1 is weak, Captain K. Really weak.
 
Ninja'd- I did not recieve any notice about being attacked.

[Nitori]

Nitori, and now Excal. I don't see what's so confusing about my post, but since both of you have misinterpreted it:

it's so early in the game and Rat is already suggesting we start a 'train'. ('Instead, I think everyone should pile up on Capn'K.... Get yours in now!'). That kind of train rush tactic has never been pro-town, in my experience.

Now...

...but Tom, in his post, implies that "the game has just begun", and that that is somehow too early for "serious" content. Can I have some clarification on this~?

As you can see, I never said serious discussion was bad. I said that a quicklynch train was a bad idea early in the game.
Nitori, sorry for the confusion if it was unclear.

Well, that does clear up that part of the post, even if we disagree on the intent on the vote...I, like others, don't see as much of an actual lynch attempt. Although, to me the below quote is what spurred my vote, since I interpreted it as it being too early for serious discussion, not that serious discussion was necessarily bad. Hopefully that clears up my vote there.

Especially since there's no impending time limit and the game has just begun.. and it's based off joke-votes.

Moving on...I don't think I regard Meeple and other's analysis of game effects as anything distractable, at least not yet. Meeple has at least spoken on matters involving actual discussions in the game and I believe he will continue to do so, plus this is a game, that by any person's definition, is not a normal one. At least for day 1, I wouldn't say it's too dangerous. However, Captain K is getting close to being a pure role theorizer, since all he's really said is that he doesn't think anyone is scum...and if anyone keeps up a one-track mind about this for much longer, it will act like an effective smokescreen.

Bardiche...reading his post on the Rat, it does really a lot like misinterpretation on his part of what the Rat was trying to accomplish. He chatises the vote as being a non-serious vote against a person who was spreading around non-serious votes, yet I think that Rat had a serious intention in starting discussion and not so much the lynch.

EDIT: Ninja Strago, yay~. I don't see his first point against Bardiche being all that telling, even if it was a stupid thing to say. The second point is something...not good, I will agree. I'm tempted to switch to Bardiche, but I'd like to see his response to this. Meanwhile, I'll keep my vote on Tom since I still
get a bad feeling from that post, and it's too early with too little input to really make a more informed decision.