Super Mafia Bros Brawl - Game Topic (GAME OVER)

[Carthrat]

WIFOM means wine in front of me. When Bardiche suggests hammering Soppy 'to see what happens, because scum might be pulling reverse psychology on us because they KNOW we'll think Soppy is innocent because of this harmful effect', you can counter that ad infinitum by saying "but what if scum knew we'd know they'd know we know" and it just goes on forever and you get nowhere. (Or what Bardiche says. I am bad at short explanations.)

That to one side, hammering Soppy for this would be a horrible idea in any event.

<->
Other stuff.

Firstly: The Otacon thing. "No more than eight terrorists" leaves a lot of room for exactly how many they are, that's useless intel even if he can be trusted. No, Bardiche, Nitori is not clear because of this. No, DreadThomas, we can't presume that is what he means.

Secondly: I voted for EvilTom because I have a fairly high estimation of his intelligence and did not think he needed the clarification he asked for. Like I said, I thought he was trying to save grace. Most problematic player at the time. Still kinda do think he was pulling that, but eh. Not that important at the moment.

Thirdly:

That wasn't a slip. That was intentional. Acting as if I am totally, absolutely, unpossibly scum potentially has the opposite effect.

It's worked out pretty well for me in every game I've played. You're way too concerned about meaningless stuff; you shouldn't need to modulate your presentation in this fashion if you're town.

Quit the role speculation. Really. The flower could win the game for soppy if it ever reaches 100% or do other crazy things. We don't know, we won't know, we can't know until someone digs up new information from somewhere or we get more evidence. Since it has little game impact (anyone ballsy enough to hammer Soppy for this has my respect, and almost my vote, by the way) we may as well disregard it for the time being.

I strongly disagree with virtually all theory you've presented with regards on how to win at mafia. Especially this -

Though I find Cap'n K's actions suspicions, and so Ephraim's as well, my sense of sympathy overrules cold logic for me

It totally shouldn't.

Fourthly: I disagree with Ephraim's more. He's invoking the 'better players suck' fallacy by hyping them as dangerous, then trying to portray me as someone who likes to victimize weaker players. This stirs up essentially baseless paranoia. A certain amount of suspicion is fine and all... but better players have the same odds everyone else has of landing scum (which, technically, makes it a losing proposition to heap more suspicion on them just for begin better, you know.)

The ultra-'day-1-sucks-your-investigations-suck' rant he went on earlier was likewise a terrible piece of work. The 'we'll probably lynch town over scum' is true, but meaningless to point out and ultimately nothing more than a scary declaration of reality. Redirecting us back to Soppy leads us straight into a wall and does not increase our odds in any fashion. Why reliance on roles is bad was covered by Excal. Why not doing anything meaningful until day 2 was covered by Yakumo.

Fifthly: Cap'n K is complaining on a similar vein to Ephraim. In particular, he's saying that it's annoying when people vote for you when you don't think you've done anything wrong. The life of a townie is hard indeed.  This kind of ranting is actually bad for town, guys, because it's a catch-all defence that can be applied in most situations if it's not challenged. It won't ever be taken seriously, and really does just seem like whinging to me.

He also doesn't follow the big book of how to play mafia, which apparently means I'll have to dictate the bit to him about how rolefishing is bad (because then scum can go around and off said roles with ease, rendering them null. Or do other horrible things to them. We just don't know.)

<->

In short, this whole bitching and moaning thing? Not cool. DreadThomas' offenses are comparitively minor, and really nothing inexcusable as far as starting the game goes (although I wish he'd clue into me playing the game like this every time already and stop with the hyperbole.)

Eph is getting rapidly throw towards a smashvote and I see no reason to disagree at this stage. I would have also been willing to go through with a Bardiche or Cap'n K lynch. ##Unvote, ##Vote: LordEphraim

<->

Ninja'd by a bunch of people oh god why are there so many WORDS I can't do this I just can't helpmeIneedhelp :V

[Hunter Sopko]

The line you pulled out was less a serious point itself than it was a humorous jab at Rat slipped into the midst of a serious argument, as should have been indicated by the "regrettably" lodged in the middle of that phrase. Inappropriate? Eh, maybe, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I pass up a chance to poke fun at the rodent. And yeah, I'm aware that there's no guarantee Rat is town. It's not as though I've come out and said I'm convinced that's the case. That wasn't the point. What bugs me here is that you suggest I'm trying "to turn the argument back around at Bardiche," when I unvoted Bard in the same post. I don't follow this at all.

Why slip it in there at all then? You can play it down all you want, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb in the middle of your argument. You're casting him the outsider, not to be trusted due to his different play and newness. You make yourself look like the good guy with that "hey, I'll forgive you, cause I'm just that nice" and unvote.

Sopko posted like I wanted and...wait...

Heh. End of Day 1 jokevote is always fun. People always get their panties in a wad about something. Normal stuff, but Meeple strikes me as making a lot more out of the situation than he should.

Comes in at about 10:30, picking up on the lurking/content thing about me 1-2 other people have already called on, and runs with it. Fine. 15 minutes later he AGAIN calls on me for lurking... with only an Alex vote between them. I find the obsession mostly in the right place, since figuring out the flower is rather important to the game, it looks like. But after his original 10:30 post, it has given his posts the semblence of actual content even if he hasn't really weighed in on anyone else in that timeframe.

So the whole argument here is basically "Meeple's calling me out, he does it 15 minutes later!"   I'm not allowed to state what I wanted a second time just to make something clear?  You may have had a point if I said "He needs to talk" then 15 minutes later, voted against you, and said the same thing.  That's not what happened; I repeated myself, yes, and I do this all the damn time in real life and you know it.

He's then saying I'm OMGUSing him.  Its funny cause until he said that, I hadn't even noticed Soppy had a vote on me.  I knew someone did, but I frankly didn't care since:
A. Its one vote.  In a game this large, you're likely to get voted against. Heck, unless we're late in the game (especially LYLO), one vote on you isn't going to much.
B. Joke Phase.  I'm not going to piss and moan cause someone shoved a vote on me in the joke phase.

I felt no reason to pay heed to a single, joke phase vote on me.

If anything, your post feels like an OMGUS.  You'll notice I didn't actually attack you.  I said you needed to post and say something worth a damn, not simply respond to Ciato's follow up post that was more a side comment, when she had one of content before (admittedly, there wasn't much to work with at the time.)

I'm not seeing how this is "a big deal."  Yeah, I prompted you to post twice in a short frame of time, but calling it OMGUS, especially when I didn't vote and even so much as mention (let alone NOTICE) your vote on me is clearly missing the point.

Did... I ask you about the votes on you? Or imply something at all?

And yes, I know you repeat yourself all the time in real life. But this ain't real life. This is Mafia. Every question must be asked, regardless of person. There's no guarantee it was an accident.

There's a few cases that strike me at the moment. Bardiche and Captain K.

Changing the subject, one more thought that just occurred to me about Soppy's flower.  Ingame, the item that causes the flower (Lips Stick) isn't associated with any of the fighters.  But Olimar does have a flower motif.  It's possible that the flower is self-inflicted.  Maybe if he survives a full day with it on his head, he grows a Pikmin or something to power up.

Captain K really seems to be trying to play the paranoia card against me here. Combined with his rolefishing, he's seriously starting to worry me.

About the flower...

I was thinking. Whoever Smashvotes the Flower-bearer gets a scum tag attached, right?

... What if the flower is a scum ability (scum getting stronger over time, Otacon?), and scum knew we were going to assume such... Reverse psychology?

Smashvoting Sopko to test this, though... I'm not sure whether the risk should be taken. But it is a thought, I'd want to get out there.

As is Bardiche with the paranoia card, but he's being a lot more cautious about it, which I'd attribute to scum more readily than Captain K's blatant rolefishing. I want to pressure him with a vote now that some people have pulled off him... but first...

...oh, blood and ashes.

Firstly: ##Inhale/##Regurgitate? Flavor. Joking around. Was the joke phase, I was making a joke of Kirby looking for hats. Sheesh. /(-_-)\

Secondly oh dear lord what so much rolefishing.

Thirdly a more analytical post will likely come later as I just woke up and I have a migraine still so I'm going to try and shake that off. Sopko's posted, want to read his, glad he's posting, he gives me flashbacks to FFT no matter what but let's see if it's justified. But awake, reading, waking up.

This was quite a bit ago. Want to prod him a bit, since, while he does have one huge content post, he seems to be skimming along this day unnoticed.

##Vote: Taishyr
##Unvote: Taishyr

Now, to lay the vote on Bardiche I promised.

##Vote: Bardiche.

[Yakumo]

Real quick before I go to bed, since this seems to be aimed mostly at me:

Role Fishing
This is universally regarded as bad in Mafia, but Nitori makes an interesting point; it's a different mafia environment to normal. So maybe it's not as much of a sin as it normally is? I diagree about minor roles v. major roles though, as it may reveal major roles by process of elimination. So that part isn't forgiveable.
There is something that others have missed though; Captain K isn't the only one rolefishing:
http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1210.msg21728#msg21728  - Bardiche was too (though not as much as Captain K). It's interesting to note that Yakumo only mentioned when Captian K did it though, to the exclusion of Bardiche (in the immediately following post). http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1210.msg21740#msg21740
I'm not sure what to make of that.

Let me pull out exactly what it is you're quoting from Bardiche here...

Given how Kirby's powers in Smash Bros works, and his request for a Hat... I am tempted to believe it allows him to see what powers we have? I'm not sure.

As far as the flower goes, it seems a bit dangerous, to me, if it were in scummy hands. I'm not sure who to suspect yet, either...

So far we know Falco's ability and Snake's ability, and of course everyone is aware of their own abilities... Given that everyone has one. I'm thoroughly interested in what kind of madness might occur from this.

What I'm still most worried about is whether the flower is an ability that was activated and, if so, if it has multiple uses or not. Seems to me that if scum has that ability, they could easily disable some of the more dangerous roles... Its use in the first round seems to me an indication it could be multi-use, since there really isn't anyone to pin right from the get-go.

I feel the need to point out that two posts before this was one of Captain K's where he specifically asked about Kirby's inhale thing, and that is phrased more as guessing what someone has rather than outright asking what someone's power does like Captain K was doing.  It's a lot like all the speculation over the flower; guesswork on the mechanics of the game.  The closest thing to what I consider role fishing in that post is when he starts asking questions about the flower power, and while we seriously need to get off the subject of botany here, at that point he was hardly the only one speculating on that. 

I feel like I'm obfuscating my own point there, so I'll try to make it more succinct.  Captain K was directly asking for information that people got, and Bardiche was offhandedly commenting on the powers that had been demonstrated and answering a question posed by Captain K.  One was fishing for new information, Captain K, and one was commenting on the current information, Bardiche.  I see no reason not to discuss things like Falco's blaster, they've been proven to exist.  That's like telling everyone to ignore what the cop said after they've already brought the info out for everyone to see; no sense hiding it anymore at that point.  I hope this makes it more clear what I meant by role fishing and why I only mentioned the Captain.

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 0% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 12% - Sopko, Ephraim
Carthrat (Ike): 0% - , Nitori, Bardiche, Meeple
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 12% - Strago, Andrew, QuietRain, Yakumo, El Cid
Shale (Mario): 12% - Nitori, Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 12% - Ciato, Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 0% - , Bardiche, Captain K
El Cid (Falco): 0% - , Taishyr, Strago
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 73% - Taishyr, Carthrat, Meeple
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 36% - Yakumo, El Cid, Andrew, Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 60% - Fnorder, Excal, Meeple, Dread Thomas, Carthrat, Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 0% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 0% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 12% - Ephraim, Excal, Nitori, Carthrat

Sopko's votes for Taishyr and Bardiche were not counted due to failure to unvote Meeple.
Rat and anyone else who's done it, it would be really helpful if you could mention who you're unvoting. 

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

[Taishyr]

Head's spinning, I'm hungry, and I got distracted earlier.

Now that the latter of the three is done and over with, I can reply, though this will be far shorter.

Firstly:

##Unvote: Hunter Sopko. I'm satisfied that he's reading and not just lurkhunting at this point, at least for now. The quick argument that occured between him and El Cid is interesting and noted for later, but right now I'm not terribly worried anymore.

Ephraim's initial comment that spawned a thousand walls of text would have merited a <(...)> from me but Excal pretty much brought up my thoughts for me.

MadFnorder, good to see a few posts! Post more or I will have... your HAT! Or something. That crown is fancy. Is it for sale? Also, when did your skin get so pasty, Ness? As a side note, comment on the Eph whirlwind when you get back, if you wouldn't mind.

Finally, yeah, end conclusion on Otacon is that I have zero trust in him/it right now.

##Vote: Shale. Probably all the pressure we need to get him to talk, but I feel this important. Everyone else is at least chipping in where they seem to be able to. More from QR when she has time (I know schedule pain too), more from Mad Fnorder, and... mmm.

My current most suspicious person is... agh. It was Eph, but that's actually gone down with his more recent posts. So... right now it's probably Cap'n K, though I'm open for arguments. I'm going to read through again with an eye out for a few different things later; hopefully that catches something useful.

[Carthrat]

Lurking's bad and all, but I think we are, in fact, running out of time, as evidenced by Sopko's ever-rising damage.

In a worst-case scenario, someone up for getting lynched will be able to smashvote him and delay their death by another day- which will suck for us. I'd much rather votes were on people who may well get lynched today than those who clearly aren't- and I consider lurkers in this catagory.

We'll have time enough to start witchunting lurkers tomorrow. I don't feel there's a chance of it happening today, nor would I condone it; and as such I don't see votes for Shale as being particularly useful at this stage (and in my mind, votes that explicitly say "This is a pressure vote" aren't much of an incentive.)

[Lord Ephraim]

I'm quite tired myself and venting some frustration on Mafia mechnics is oddly helpful for me, but seeing how I fell right into horrible scum play despite not really knowing how I got myself into the situation.

Perhaps my vote on Tom was more of intimidation more than a feel of scum, more of a slightly-more serious joke vote really.  I suppose it's too late withdrawing my vote because I forgot to >_> but I'm doing it anyways because at this point we need a lynch to keep the game going.  I'm taking too much personal feelings of someone outside (which is why I'm always suspisious of people who come here just to play Mafia).  I think I know much better after reading all the bullshit I typed, time must be getting to me.  That said, I still have a hunch that one of Rat/Meeple/Excal is just taking advantage of my mishap, but I can't prove it. 

Something feels too straightfoward with Captain K and his penchant for roles and night actions, which is why I can't bring myself to vote for him.  Maybe some bizzaro role? Remember, he is Luigi! (shut up about characters /=/  fitted roles) I much rather go after Bardiche who seems to follow after Captain, not to mention he tried just as much as I to distract people back into Soppy business.

##Unvote: EvilTom

I'm not planning on finishing Soppy off, as everything I said about him still stands.  But I won't be afraid of finishing myself off if you're tired of me and Mafia.  I rather die by my hand than by fithy furries! (I think that's left for people who haven't voted)

[Captain K.]

Captain K...I find it really hard to say anything about him for some reason. At first, I did discount the role speculation since this is a drastically different mafia environment than we're used to. On the other hand, it seems more like he's going after the "Minor Abilities" stated in the first post, which aren't supposed to do much, rather than standard mafia roles. Rolefishing is bad, but I wonder exactly what kind of roles Captain is fishing for. I'd like Captain to clarify this, and also to for him to do something in the way of finding actual scum targets soon~.

I wasn't looking for specific information, I was looking for *any* information.  We still don't have anything concrete to go on at this point.

Personally I think we're getting nowhere with Day 1, and it's time to move on to see lynch results and draw some conclusions from that.  Ephraim seems as good a candidate as any right now - although he did defend me.

##VOTE: Lord Ephraim

[Bardiche]

As is Bardiche with the paranoia card, but he's being a lot more cautious about it, which I'd attribute to scum more readily than Captain K's blatant rolefishing. I want to pressure him with a vote now that some people have pulled off him... but first...

My being careful and reserved with the post is because I wanted the sentiment to be shared, and not immediately followed, nor was I too sure whether or not the action would be desirable. Yes, it did distract some indeed, and in hindsight I probably should've waited for a better moment.

As far as the paranoia goes? There's no one here I can clear, only one person I am wary of, and the rest of you... Yeah, Ephraim does make an awfully awkward defense. More on that in a sec.

That is a very dangerous (and stupid) assumption. For many reasons. First of all, it's unlikely the mod would confirm somebody as town on the first page. Second, your assumption is based on what may be nothing more than flavour. Third, there's way too many variables. Fourth, that kind of talk is a scumtell.

Pray do tell, how is my speculation on how to interpret Otacon's message both stupid and scumtell? Moreover, you omitted the part where I explicitly stated I need to think more of it, which is well enough as any of an indicator that all thoughts I shed on it before are speculation and guesses, and nothing that I'd be willing to bet my life on.


And I said I'd still get back on Ephraim. As I said before, his... Outbursts made me seriously feel as if we are ganging up on someone and deterring them from having fun. His arguments are rather bad, he's been avoiding the matter which I think four of us questioned him about (his argument for voting on Tom, rather), and I dunno. To me, there are a few other people that seem all the more better of a choice, but I'm aware that I have nothing to really get them lynched on, as Ephraim's actions overshadow theirs. At the cost of maybe sounding OMGUS due to his latest post, I'm going to put my vote on him as well so that we can move past day 1 and start getting a better overview of the situation.

##VOTE: Ephraim

I much rather go after Bardiche who seems to follow after Captain, not to mention he tried just as much as I to distract people back into Soppy business.

I want to mention I still find it odd many attribute it to me to be more suspicious in regards to rolefishing when all I've done is speculate about the effects of various roles currently "in play", such as Otacon and the flower. How is that marginally more suspicious than blatantly asking around for everyone's abilities?
If I wanted to draw people into Sopko business, trust me, I'd have written much larger a post than shed five lines on the matter and withdraw from it.

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 0% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 12% - Sopko, Ephraim
Carthrat (Ike): 0% - , Nitori, Bardiche, Meeple
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 12% - Strago, Andrew, QuietRain, Yakumo, El Cid
Shale (Mario): 24% - Nitori, Taishyr, Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 12% - Ciato, Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 0% - , Bardiche, Captain K
El Cid (Falco): 0% - , Taishyr, Strago
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 71% - , Carthrat, Meeple, Taishyr
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 36% - Yakumo, El Cid, Andrew, Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 84% - Fnorder, Excal, Meeple, Dread Thomas, Carthrat, Captain K, Bardiche, Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 0% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 0% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 0% - , Excal, Nitori, Carthrat, Ephraim

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

[Sierra]

...oh, blood and ashes.

Firstly: ##Inhale/##Regurgitate? Flavor. Joking around. Was the joke phase, I was making a joke of Kirby looking for hats. Sheesh. /(-_-)\

Hah, okay. This is a strange game, and I've already made it apparent that I have a quirky daytime ability, so it seemed reasonable to assume that's what was going on with you as well.

More on the way. I've got two pages to read through first, though.

[Yakumo]

Alright, this quick train on Eph is really starting to worry me.  He's really close to being pushed off and I don't see a really good reason for it that hasn't been offset somewhat by his more recent posting after he calmed down a bit.  I see several reasons consisting of "let's get this day over with" despite the fact that multiple people haven't chimed in on the current situation and the day has only been going for less than 48 RL hours.  Yes, I can see why leaving Soppy really high is a bad idea, if we're about to catch scum anyway they have no reason -not- to smash him if that's an option, but seriously guys.  PUT A REASON DOWN FOR YOUR VOTES, OR WE DON'T HAVE INFORMATION TO WORK WITH.

Also, I still feel that the Captain has not defended himself well enough and no other, better case has shown up, so I don't see a reason to shift my vote yet. 

[Carthrat]

On the one hand, I sort of agree with Yak, in that Cap'n has taken a painfully standoffish stance this game, and that people need to slam down reasons. Preferably with an audiable clack, like expert go players.

On the other hand, like every single freaking game, there's a train on day one, and someone comes out with "I'm not comfortable with the way this is picking up votes." Colour me skeptical of this line of thought, because there's very little to add to that unless you have significant suspicion on several of the other posters.

In general, I think the wishy-washiness of any given day should drain away as time goes on, leaving behind some clear cases (or at least clear attempts at cases) and direct action. Now isn't the time, I think, to start second-guessing ourselves.

<->

I will clarify my vote, at least; Ephraim's stance on deliberately attaching more suspicious to 'better' players, the ranting over how day 1 is a bad time to do anything, the encouragement over waiting for roles and day2 instead. In his latest post, too, the whole "I'll kill myself, don't worry," thing... do not like at all.

[EvilTom]

Just quickly before I fall asleep:
My reasons for my vote are fairly obvious (see: http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1210.msg21841#msg21841 ). I did stuff up at the end though which I quickly corrected (argh for lack of edit), I meant to say that it was Bardiche who made the bad assumption, but still Ephraim looked far worse. It got lost in copy paste from my notepad file >.>

Also Soppy will be getting within Smash range if we delay too much longer. As Rat said, somebody could smash him before they get hammered, so we'd best avoid that possiblity if we want to keep control of the KO.

Bardiche: It's a really really really bad idea to claim that somebody is cleared town when they aren't. It's stupid, because it's wrong. It's scummy because it's a potential scum tactic to help clear a scumbuddy if nobody notices. If you need it explained more, I'll do it after I get some sleep, otherwise I'm sure some others here will fill you in on why it's a bad idea to claim Nitori as town based on what some random unknown said. I mean, who's going to trust that guy after all the issues he's been through :| (Otacon).

Ok bed time Zzzz

[Hunter Sopko]

Son of a...

##Unvote: Meeple

##Vote: Tai
##Unvote: Tai

##Vote: Bardiche


And whoa... the Eph train completely snuck up on me. His whole self-pity, I'll smash myself thing is, as usual (for the game, not him), quite annoying and doesn't help at all. The thing that strikes me is the quote Bardiche brought up, actually.

Something feels too straightfoward with Captain K and his penchant for roles and night actions, which is why I can't bring myself to vote for him.  Maybe some bizzaro role? Remember, he is Luigi! (shut up about characters /=/  fitted roles) I much rather go after Bardiche who seems to follow after Captain, not to mention he tried just as much as I to distract people back into Soppy business.

Mostly the last sentence. Another one of those odd bits that makes you ask "what was he thinking putting it in there?" Sort of a "he's as scummy as me, so look at him not me!" argument? It's not as if people aren't looking suspiciously in Bardiche's direction, so something like that isn't necessary. I'll grant him that Eph can't particularly go after himself, but how is this supposed to convince other people?

My being careful and reserved with the post is because I wanted the sentiment to be shared, and not immediately followed, nor was I too sure whether or not the action would be desirable. Yes, it did distract some indeed, and in hindsight I probably should've waited for a better moment.

As far as the paranoia goes? There's no one here I can clear, only one person I am wary of, and the rest of you... Yeah, Ephraim does make an awfully awkward defense. More on that in a sec.

I wasn't attributing paranoia to you. I was saying your argument was trying to trigger paranoia against me. I should have been more clear on that.

I will agree with Yakko though that Captain K still hasn't really done all that much in the way of defense, or even really going over arguments against people. It's hard to choose between Bardiche and Captain K, and I don't particularly want to jump around, but at this point, Cap's play has become too much (or too little) to ignore.

##Unvote: Bardiche
##Vote: Captain K

[Sierra]

The line you pulled out was less a serious point itself than it was a humorous jab at Rat slipped into the midst of a serious argument, as should have been indicated by the "regrettably" lodged in the middle of that phrase. Inappropriate? Eh, maybe, but it'll be a cold day in hell before I pass up a chance to poke fun at the rodent. And yeah, I'm aware that there's no guarantee Rat is town. It's not as though I've come out and said I'm convinced that's the case. That wasn't the point. What bugs me here is that you suggest I'm trying "to turn the argument back around at Bardiche," when I unvoted Bard in the same post. I don't follow this at all.

Why slip it in there at all then? You can play it down all you want, but it still sticks out like a sore thumb in the middle of your argument.

It was there because I have a sense of humor and like to indulge it once in a while. Do I really have to leave my personality at the door when I play this game, Soppy? I mock the rodent pretty much all the time in chat. It didn't occur to me that people would take the remark as anything but that.

You're casting him the outsider, not to be trusted due to his different play and newness. You make yourself look like the good guy with that "hey, I'll forgive you, cause I'm just that nice" and unvote.

My bolding here. Soppy, this was not remotely my intent. You're either reaching badly or viewing the statement through the assumption that I'm scum. And I don't know how you could be convinced of that since you only bother to draw attention to this one paragraph of mine.

Someone else want to chime in here? Because I think Soppy's seriously distorting the relevance of one flippant remark.

More in a moment.

[Ranmilia]

It is now day 1.  With 18 alive, each vote is worth 12% damage.

The stage for day 1 is Battlefield.  It has no gameplay effects.

Captain Olimar (Sopko) has a beautiful flower growing out of his head!

Yakumo (Ganondorf): 0% - Ciato
Meeple (Poketrainer): 0% - , Ephraim, Sopko
Carthrat (Ike): 0% - , Nitori, Bardiche, Meeple
Bardiche (Jigglypuff): 12% - Strago, Andrew, QuietRain, Yakumo, El Cid, Sopko
Shale (Mario): 24% - Nitori, Taishyr, Meeple, Captain K
Excal (Marth): 12% - Ciato, Yakumo
Taishyr (Kirby): 0% - , Bardiche, Captain K, Sopko
El Cid (Falco): 0% - , Taishyr, Strago
Strago (Wolf): 0% - Excal
Sopko (Olimar): 76% - , Carthrat, Meeple, Taishyr
Captain K (Pink Luigi): 48% - Yakumo, El Cid, Andrew, Sopko, Carthrat, El Cid
Ephraim (MetaKnight): 84% - Fnorder, Excal, Meeple, Dread Thomas, Carthrat, Captain K, Bardiche, Taishyr
QuietRain (Pikachu): 12% - Shale, Bardiche
Andrew (Toon Link): 0% - Dread Thomas
Nitori (Snake): 0% - Andrew
EvilTom (Link): 0% - , Excal, Nitori, Carthrat, Ephraim

Under normal circumstances a ##Smashvote will KO anyone who is at or over 100% damage, no matter how they reached that amount.

Cough ahem Captain K is voting for Eph, Eph is not voting for himself.  Please contact me if you ever spot errors in the votecount.

[QuietRain]

OK.  Mondays officially suck.  Using a loaner laptop here at work as I left mine at home.  Means this will prolly be the only post I can make until I get home again, so I'm going to try to make this one count as much as possible.  

CapnK rolefishing: I actually don't find that to be anything eyebrow raising.  I'm pretty sure that all of us are savvy enough players that if we had anything that sharing this early would be helpful to do, we'd do it.  The lack of anyone coming forward just means everyone has messages or abilities that they'd rather keep as an ace in the hole for now.  It never hurts to ask.  Someone could be on the fence about whether or not to share something.  I use the extra daykill ability in VtM as an example.  That was something that could have backfired horribly to announce, but it was done anyway to give town that extra bit of leverage.  Plus it's nothing outside the norm for CapnK to do.  I don't find it fishy, really.

The flower thing: I didn't find the discussion about the effects of the flower to be distracting.  In a game where the GM has stated that things will be wacky as a matter of course, things like that do need to be thought about and taken into account.  So, no scummy/off vibes from those discussing it over the weekend for me.

---------------------------

As an explanation, let's just say that in previous Mafia games I've played, it wasn't really unheard of to sacrifice yourself (despite being innocent) to narrow down the number of players that would need to be cleared by Cops or Docs. If someone became suspicious in those games, and they were really innocent, they'd willingly allow themselves to get killed so that a Cop wouldn't check their alignment in the consecutive night and thus waste an investigate round due to the other's behaviour causing high suspicion.

And this just seems like the worst idea ever to me.  The more town that dies, the less targets the scum have to hit to win.  A cop's check of a suspicious person's alignment isn't a waste.  And the person (presumably innocent) still being in the game is more important than freeing up a cop's action.  Plus, you never know what kind of cops are running around.  They could be any of the variants that make what they find out about you worth less than you still being alive.  So if you kill yourself off and it's a cop that picks up everyone as innocent or everyone as scum, you've done no one a favor.  Just saying I think the logic in those previous games of yours is supremely faulty.  But maybe they didn't have quite the level of role-madness that is the norm here.

--------------------

Now, I hate sitting around without a vote on anyone at all, so the only person who has said enough odd things to clear my suspicious threshold is:

##Vote Bardiche

This is nothing more than gut jumping on Day 1.  I don't find ANYone scummy today, but he's about the closest thing to it that I've seen.

----------------------

EDIT: Ninja'd by a WHOLE lot of posts.  Posting this then reading them.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Analyzing situations in the eyes of potential intent is something that I do too, although this could have very well be taken way the hell out of context.

I pretty much agree Yakko here at the alarming pace that this train is setting up. Eph is an extremely easy target due to his passive-aggressive nature. In fact, to me the entire day has been marked by people just jumping on the usual suspects; Tom and people with wacked out playing styles and new people. Which, well, is bullshit.

I find Rat's alarmist attitude about Sopko's flower a very nice excuse to try to push for a quick lynch on Eph. His preying on Eph while just pushing the train along is making me really look close at his arguments, as well as his being content with ignoring lurkers while pushing to lynch... pretty much whoever, it seems from his voting record. Him saying we are running out of time because of Sopko's ever rising number is a pretty weird argument because we have no idea what Sopko's power does, and anyone who hammers him when he has zero votes is a deadman.

In general, I think he is trying to incite paranoia and I don't appreciate it.

##UNVOTE: Excal
##VOTE: Carthrat

[Meeplelard]

Pretty sure I agree with Cid regarding him vs. soppy.  Cid's line struck me as something that's only natural to be stated.

If you know someone well, you know what to expect from them, therefor, them acting different than usual stands out.  I'm sure people would eyebrow raise if I suddenly started posting quick, concise, to the point posts that were completely understandable.  Why? Cause you know how I operate; you know that's unlike me and you'd think SOMETHING was up!  Come on, all of you know its true!

Same concept here; we know how Rat operates, so him acting certain ways can't really be called a scum tell, since well, he acts like that all the time.  Cid's point feels like he's trying to say that if you're going to get Rat, there's going to need to be more than "He's acting like this!" when he does that all the time.

Flipside of the coin, we have Bardiche, whose playing a bit unorthodox by our standards, I guess you could call it.  We don't know him well, so its hard to say what to think of him.  Given that, psychologically, you are going to treat him differently, be it more lenience cause you think its just "new guy, I'll cut him some slack" *OR* harshness in the "I don't know him, I can't trust him!"  sense.

Now, yes, you can't use either of these as pure defenses...but given its Day 1, cutting some slack here and there is forgivable and not overly offensive.  Chiming at a view like this this early in the game doesn't do any good.  Should Cid keep up with this "He's new, I'll cut him some slack and forgive him!" view, *THEN* it starts looking bad.  On Day 1, I'm willing to just shrug and move on, look for someone with a better case.

The point is, yeah, I think Soppy's making larger of the situation than needs be.  He's attacking one not major point which by itself, doesn't say a lot.

-----

So Tai's Inhaling was a pure joke thing? Ok, that's good to know!  With that out of the way, that's one less thing we have to worry about speculating or something...

-----

That said, while I am keeping my vote on Eph (for reasons I stated before.  Yes, he lightened up lately, but that doesn't completely remove my suspicion of his earlier posts), I do want to hear Captain K say something of relevance. As well as other players who haven't been very vocal like, say, Shale.  Also, I'm still weary of Soppy, and should he hit 100%, I might be willing to Smashvote him. (This is more announcing beforehand; if I do actually intend to do it, I'll announce that I am going to do it before I do, don't worry.)

I will say that Captain K's Rolefishing I don't find that particularly bad, though I do find it very "um, why would you do that?" inducing.  Seems more like a bold and stupid stunt rather than a scum tell, HOWEVER, this doesn't change the fact that I feel he hasn't said a hell of a lot either.  So yeah...I wouldn't mind seeing him go this round, for all that I'm not getting all that strong scum vibes from him.

NINJA'D BY CIATO AND QR! ARGH!
Charizard! Burn the stage in anger to show my frustration cause I can't do it while on the side lines!

[Sierra]

Okay, so you guys got up to plenty of crazy hijinks while I was asleep. A lot of it's been hashed over already, but I like to have my reactions down in the record. I'll try to be concise to avoid spending too much time on repetition.

-Shale badly needs to show up and post something. Has he said a word since Saturday? I keep forgetting he's even in the game. QR at least gave us advance warning that she'd be busy.

-People need to stop talking about the goddamn flower. It's simply not productive right now. If we learn anything more about it, it'll be tomorrow, and theorizing right now just distracts from actual scumhunting. On that note, I don't support smashing Soppy "just to end the day" or for any other reason not founded in solid analysis (and I don't see a lot of it regarding him). Especially since, if there are side-effects of the flower, I believe we're more likely to learn them if he's around tomorrow. Killing him now would just be reckless.

-On a related note, anyone suggesting we need to lynch someone just because Soppy's damage is rising gets an FoS (Feather of Suspicion) from Falco (I'm looking at you here, Tom). There are plenty of good reasons to suggest it's time to end the day, but that's not one of them. It's been stated already why scum smashing Soppy would attract exactly the kind of attention they don't want, and no amount of reverse psychology babble is going to change that. Suggesting that it's a possibility and that we have to kill someone else before this happens is nothing but scaremongering.

-Otacon. Rat pointed this out already, but assuming that Nitori's ability to make the mod post a message means Nitori is town is a bad idea. Please don't do this. We have no way of knowing whether Otacon's message was written by Nitori and passed to the mod, or written by the mod himself. If the former, the message could easily have been riddled with lies. Now, we can analyze the message and try to evaluate whether or not it's an accurate representation of our situation, sure, but we cannot automatically conclude that the ability makes Nitori town. That would make it a self-confirming role, and such things are not the hallmark of a balanced game. Although we know this is a role-heavy game, I don't see any indication yet that it's an unbalanced one. Aside from that, calling Otacon is clearly the "minor ability" tied to Nitori's character (Snake); I got the impression that everyone had something like this to add flavor. Such details don't give us any clue about their alignment. As for Nitori himself, I'm satisfied with his contributions thus far and don't see a reason to do anything but wait and see what Otacon has to say tomorrow.

Thoughts on Eph and the Captain forthcoming. Want to get something out there right now (I know I've been ninja'd by like five people already. Argh).

[Yakumo]

On the other hand, like every single freaking game, there's a train on day one, and someone comes out with "I'm not comfortable with the way this is picking up votes." Colour me skeptical of this line of thought, because there's very little to add to that unless you have significant suspicion on several of the other posters.

Not what I meant.  I'm not concerned just because Eph is picking up votes.  It's day one, he's been erratic, I can see why he's earned a few.  I'm concerned because so many of the votes say something like:

Personally I think we're getting nowhere with Day 1, and it's time to move on to see lynch results and draw some conclusions from that.  Ephraim seems as good a candidate as any right now - although he did defend me.

##VOTE: Lord Ephraim

and

##Vote Ephraim[/b] Where are you?

and also

And I said I'd still get back on Ephraim. As I said before, his... Outbursts made me seriously feel as if we are ganging up on someone and deterring them from having fun. His arguments are rather bad, he's been avoiding the matter which I think four of us questioned him about (his argument for voting on Tom, rather), and I dunno. To me, there are a few other people that seem all the more better of a choice, but I'm aware that I have nothing to really get them lynched on, as Ephraim's actions overshadow theirs. At the cost of maybe sounding OMGUS due to his latest post, I'm going to put my vote on him as well so that we can move past day 1 and start getting a better overview of the situation.

##VOTE: Ephraim

(emphasis added)

Two of which are weak at best, one says he'd rather lynch someone else, and most of the overall votes feel like people are rushing into a bad judgement because of the flower.  I have no more time, gotta run, there's more I want to say but you'll have to wait for my lunch break.

[Hunter Sopko]

If I really wanted to make more out of the Cid situation, I'd have voted him. I've shown myself more than willing to throw votes around as pressure. The line struck me as off, so I called on it.

Let's see... who hasn't posted in a while...

Wow. Shale's been positively non-existant this game. Where the hell are you, man?

Strago, Fnorder and Andy need to add to the new developments as well, but they've been posting normally.

Blah... ninja'd by Cid...

Beat me to the Shale point. I also want to support his point about Nitori. Especially in a game like this, assuming the effects of a role are anything is dangerous. This caused problems in a past game too, but I can't remember which. Someone was discovered to be a roleblocker, and town thought that was a scum-only or inherantly scum aligned role, lynched them. Bam, they ended up being town.

Double Ninja'd by Yakko...

Mostly reaffirms my suspicions on both Captain K and Bardiche. Keeping my vote on Captain K.

[QuietRain]

*sigh*  Read the new posts and the ones that came after mine as well.  I REALLY suck at strategy games.  I mean BIG TIME.  Knowing when to play my cards is always a problem.  I sat here and debated back and forth on the issue.  And it really came down to: I have no idea if it's a good idea or not, so F It and do it anyway.  If I shot myself in the foot, I'll know not to do that next time.  If I didn't, then perhaps I'll be helping the rest of town out.  Anyway, I don't believe all roles are things that should be used as measures of last resort.  Sometimes they need to put put on the plate from the get go.  Let's see if I'm right that mine is of the latter variety.

QUESTION:
Is a 2 for 1 sale good for town?  Meaning, is it better to have 2 lynches a day to their single NK?  Because town DOES have that option.

[Sierra]

Ciato: Where did Rat mention Soppy's increasing damage as a reason to lynch soon? I just read way too many posts to remember everything and the one who stood out for saying that was Tom (perhaps because I had misgivings about him already, granted).

-So, Eph. He definitely had some bad logic on his end, but I don't have any trouble believing his initial outburst was real-life emotional distress spilling over into the game. If someone acting this way is consistently disruptive, I do support lynching them just because civil discourse will not resume until they're gone, but Eph's calmed down considerably since then. Sufficiently so that I'm starting to wonder how much his tone early on is inflating his actual mistakes in people's eyes. Excal's thoroughly documented his disagreements with Eph, at least, but others...not so much, which makes me wary of getting on this train despite it being easy to see how it started.

Lunchtime now. I'll chime in on the Captain when I get back.