Idiot of the Day

[Grefter]

2) What exactly qualifies as "made with females as a specific target audience", aside from stuff with obviously girly artwork like Rhapsody? Does Personal Trainer Cooking count if Nintendo (I think it's a Nintendo product) advertises it all the time on Food Network and the like? Does Final Fantasy or Kingdom Hearts count when Nomura starts blatantly pandering to the female/yaoi audience with the character designs? Does Harvest Moon or The Sims count for being lifestyle sim type games instead of something centered around violence like the average FPS/platformer/RPG/action/etc. game?

That is just the thing, the good games mentioned there were just made to be -games-, not specifically targetting a female audience, they are a casual audience target (which may or may not be predominatly female) what is tends to just be Barbies Play House (or maybe Hello Kitty).  It is way easier to find games more specifically targetted at males.

Going back to the first point though, if it isn't targetted at females it is even more insulting as this is saying this is a way men relate to women or see them as relating to us.  Which is even worse and quite frankly an even bigger shining symbol of failure in the industry. Shit like that can go fuck off and die in a fire.

[hinode]

That is just the thing, the good games mentioned there were just made to be -games-, not specifically targetting a female audience, they are a casual audience target (which may or may not be predominatly female) what is tends to just be Barbies Play House (or maybe Hello Kitty).  It is way easier to find games more specifically targetted at males.

On the flipside, just what exactly qualifies a game to be "specifically targetted at males"? Historically videogames have been targetted at boys for various reasons, but if we aren't going to call Harvest Moon or the Sims female-targetted because of their social focus, is it fair to call even FPS games - traditionally one of the most "macho" genres, overwhelming targetted at males age 14-35 or so - male-targetted because of the violence? There are certainly females who do enjoy shooter games, some purely because they enjoy the gameplay mechanics and some who really do like the violent trappings.

The most unquestionably indication of targetting males would presumably be scantily clad females used as fanservice purposes, but you've just dismissed games that blatantly pander to female fans with the male character designs as being female-targetted - so where exactly do you draw the line then? Clearly DOA Xtreme Beach Volleyball jumped as far across that line as physically possible without the slightest sense of shame or decency, but there's a whole spectrum of fanservice of various levels of tastelessness, and by the definitions you've already made we can't toss all of them into the male-targetted bin.

Going back to the first point though, if it isn't targetted at females it is even more insulting as this is saying this is a way men relate to women or see them as relating to us.  Which is even worse and quite frankly an even bigger shining symbol of failure in the industry. Shit like that can go fuck off and die in a fire.

I don't think the game's meant to say anything about gender relations - just to take one stock character type (rich stuck up bratty female) that's normally a supporting role and making her the main instead. As someone who doesn't care for that particular stock character this feels more like a case of game developers taking a lame trope and not doing a good job giving it a worthwhile spin.

[Grefter]

Warning, tired disjointed post.

I didn't throw out that it was targetted at females, you did.

1) I'm honestly not convinced that this is targetted at females, rather than male fanboys who like Libby/Tsundere type females in their anime/video games.

I don't even care WHO it is targeted at, it is insulting either goddamned way.

Saying Sims and other simulation/minigame centric games are not female targetted but are casual gamer targetted doesn't preclude your stock FPS (Not all are, but lets go with your UTs and your Quakes here) is targetted at males.  Simulations and mini games still are not inherently (or predominantly even) targetted at females, it is going for a casual gamer market that just happens to have a larger portion of females in it (beecauuuuuuuse there are more male hardcore gamers than there is casual! SHOCK, with the more even mix up of male:female gamer ratio these days they have to go somewhere).  Sure there might be some, but something like Bejeweled?  You seriously want to put something as generic as that in a targets females column?  No.   Where as on the other hand a game chock full of the ultraviolence is pretty blatantly pandering to a (young) male audience.

Sims is more about the simulation and it doesn't really have a great deal of actual GAME elements to it.  Casual games tend to be far more pure game elements (as in more in touch with traditional card games or board games).  Neither of these factors are inherently female while disembowling an alien horde one by one and then having sex with 8 hot women at once is far more clearly male targeted.

So yeah I would reject that stance.  It isn't one I took.  What I am saying is that it is much harder to find a game that is specifically targetting a female audience the same way you can clearly say that stock FPS target males.  Super Princess Peach is the kind of thing I am talking here.  Casual games don't cut it because they are just targetted at everyone in general and quite frankly they work fairly often quite well at that (Either by the whatever makes Sims apealling to like fucking everyone or just being pure gameplay things like Peggle).  Like lets just go with the big guns here, if you are saying casual games are targeted at females there you are saying that Tetris is specifically targeted at a female audience.



The game might not be meant to be saying shit about gender relations.  It doesn't have to mean to say shit to be a flaming pile of it either.  Ar Tonelico might not mean to be about as many rape allegories as you can fit into a 20 hour game, doesn't stop the game from being creepy as fuck and packed full of it by association with the number of LOL COCKS GO IN VAGINA jokes it has in it. 

The fact that it is a shitty trope that they can't even be fucked to flesh out into a decent character as a parody is what is insulting .  It is as if this stupid idea of women can't progress any further than the already insulting 2 dimensional shit that it started with.  If it is a parody it is an incredibly shallow one that is a worthless waste of time.

[NotMiki]

You know, I'm thinking about this topic and I walk into the other room and what should be on TV but a hearing aid ad.  In it, an old lady misses a number playing bingo so she doesn't win.  Hearing aids are good for all your bingo playing since you're an old lady and old ladies love them some bingo.  But I digress.

Anyway, you want non-insulting games aimed at women, good luck.  Games that are single-gender targeted are always insulting, because differences in taste between genders, and there are differences of course, are always insulting.  (and don't tell me you know a dude who just loves reading Twilight books because I already know he's out there, but he's in a severe minority, and targeting is all about generalities.)

The best you're going to get when gender-targeting is involved is dual-targeting, things like the Vision of Escaflowne anime, which are formulated to hit both male and female audiences for different reasons.  (Escaflowne is a particularly interesting case, because most of what they did between the manga and anime to make it more appealing to women was to take out the part where whenever Hitomi uses her powers she transforms into a magical girl with bigger tits.  But I digress).  There is an example of this in RPGs, by the way: FF8.  Chew on that for a while.

[hinode]

Saying Sims and other simulation/minigame centric games are not female targetted but are casual gamer targetted doesn't preclude your stock FPS (Not all are, but lets go with your UTs and your Quakes here) is targetted at males.  Simulations and mini games still are not inherently (or predominantly even) targetted at females, it is going for a casual gamer market that just happens to have a larger portion of females in it (beecauuuuuuuse there are more male hardcore gamers than there is casual! SHOCK, with the more even mix up of male:female gamer ratio these days they have to go somewhere).  Sure there might be some, but something like Bejeweled?  You seriously want to put something as generic as that in a targets females column?  No.   Where as on the other hand a game chock full of the ultraviolence is pretty blatantly pandering to a (young) male audience.

Thing is, I get the impression you are being insanely restrictive on what counts as a game that is 'female-targetted' while being much more liberal on what counts as 'male-targetted'. Traditional marketerspeak with movies is that movies focused on violence are targetted at males and movies focused on relationships are targetted at females - which you'll notice I never refuted, because it's not an unreasonable position. But you refuse to label the games that actually are focused on building relationships as female-centric unless there are princesses and lollipops and frilly dresses involved, while seemingly happy to label entire genres 'male-targetted' simply having their gameplay focus on violence of some sort.

This strikes me as a double-standard, blindly swallowing half of Hollywood's demographic stereotyping while rejecting the other half. Is it really inherently masculine to enjoy a videogame built on violent but not gratuitous gameplay mechanics? Does this mean we should shun females who do enjoy violent gameplay as freaks? Or should we instead assume that traditionally 'masculine' virtues are the most desirable ones and that the most desirable females in fiction are basically male action heroes with breasts like Xena?

Quite frankly the labels that you are using and implying in this topic make it impossible by definition for the gaming industry to not have more games that are male-targetted. Any game that tries to build on more traditionally 'feminine' goals like relationship building are casual and thus not targetting females, but anything built on action and adrenaline is inherently male-targetted. At this point any company that tries to develop anything but casual games, RPGs, or Nintendo-style family friendly aesthetics is inherently doomed to be labelled as male-centric in a condescending voice.

The game might not be meant to be saying shit about gender relations.  It doesn't have to mean to say shit to be a flaming pile of it either.  Ar Tonelico might not mean to be about as many rape allegories as you can fit into a 20 hour game, doesn't stop the game from being creepy as fuck and packed full of it by association with the number of LOL COCKS GO IN VAGINA jokes it has in it.

Considering Ar Tonelico is based on harem anime tropes, I wouldn't be so quick to say that the rape allegories aren't intentional!

The fact that it is a shitty trope that they can't even be fucked to flesh out into a decent character as a parody is what is insulting .  It is as if this stupid idea of women can't progress any further than the already insulting 2 dimensional shit that it started with.  If it is a parody it is an incredibly shallow one that is a worthless waste of time.

Thing is, when it's shitty trope usage that's annoying you, you shouldn't be biting peoples' heads off about sexism. That sort of attitude doesn't cause people to stop using shitty tropes, it causes them to not female characters unless they're Mary Sue style perfect - after all, the male shitty tropes aren't causing such outrage, so clearly the gender is the problem here.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I thought he was just upset about the advertising that Atlus was doing for the game on the website?

That's what he pointed out in his initial posts anyway. Though honestly, while it's certainly not ground-breaking humour; I found "This stuff looks complicated! Explain!" to be a slightly more interesting menu button choice than "Gameplay" - and really sounds like Atlus' usual style of advertising. It focuses on being a bit more quirky and Japanese, since that's what its fanbase likes. Seems pretty suitable to me.

And the idea that there are no guys who like this kind of 'pink fluff' game aesthetic is amusing. While it's certainly more prevalent in Japan, America has its share of otaku guys who like cute things (and I'm not even trying to imply that there's anything wrong with this, though there are certainly creepy guys who take it to a sexual extreme).

Really, the game itself just looks like it's going for a 'cute factor' appeal all-around, which has certainly worked in the past (and is one of the tried-and-true marketing formulas of Japan). And who knows, with a decent localization, the main character might even be funny or entertaining in some way.

While that may be overly hopeful, and I still don't really like this kind of 'pink fluff' aesthetic personally, Grefter's rage still seems pretty misplaced. Or rather, he seems to have singled out one example among far too many examples to rage about...

-Djinn

[Grefter]

You know what I am doing right now?  Bashing my fucking head into my desk.

Talking about generalised stereotypes from a marketting approach doesn't mean they are things I believe.  I know there are guys that will play big pink fluffy games for fucks sake.  I take issues with this because it is insulting as fuck, that it is built off of a retarded trope is just an added bonus, because you see THE ORIGINAL TROPE IS AN OFFENSIVE RETARDED SOCIAL CONSTRUCT ABOUT FEMALES YOU GODDAMNED MORONS.

You do realise what this is saying if you target it at men right?  It is a game for guys to laugh at and go Ohohohohohohoh women are SO TOTALLY LIKE THAT.  Which you know, they aren't because they generally have a brain and feelings enough that they aren't going to go "Oh my I am apparently supernaturally appealling and capable of changing peoples minds by throwing a tantrum.  OH DEAR THIS GENTLEMAN I WANT TO FUCK WANTS ME TO DO SOMETHING TO PROVE MY WORTH.  INSTEAD OF USING MY APPARENTLY ESTABLISH SUPERNATURAL FEMININE WHILES I WILL GO OUT AND BE A STUPID BITCH TO THE WORLD BECAUSE THE MALE DEMANDS IT." ohohohoh womans are so totally like that.

If you target it at females, well the apparently strong female lead is going out into the world being a giant Paris Hiltonesque bitch entirely on the whim of a man.  Again insulting.

For it being misaimed, you know what?  I saw something that offends me as a feminist, I post it.  yes there is more fucked up shit out there like this.  This however is right fucking here and I can string it up as an example of how our industry is doing it wrong.

Everyone that has argued that this shit isn't primo fucked up, go take a Feminism class for fucks sake please.  You are generally far to intelligent to let this kind of shit slide and yet almost everyone else who has commented has.

And Jim yeah that shit is pretty retarded as well.

[DjinnAndTonic]

You do realise what this is saying if you target it at men right?  It is a game for guys to laugh at and go Ohohohohohohoh women are SO TOTALLY LIKE THAT.  Which you know, they aren't because they generally have a brain and feelings enough that they aren't going to go "Oh my I am apparently supernaturally appealling and capable of changing peoples minds by throwing a tantrum.  OH DEAR THIS GENTLEMAN I WANT TO FUCK WANTS ME TO DO SOMETHING TO PROVE MY WORTH.  INSTEAD OF USING MY APPARENTLY ESTABLISH SUPERNATURAL FEMININE WHILES I WILL GO OUT AND BE A STUPID BITCH TO THE WORLD BECAUSE THE MALE DEMANDS IT." ohohohoh womans are so totally like that.

If you target it at females, well the apparently strong female lead is going out into the world being a giant Paris Hiltonesque bitch entirely on the whim of a man.  Again insulting.

I don't know anything about the story, but I imagine if they are presenting such an obviously flawed character as the heroine, she will undergo a predictable and inevitable change/redemption by the end of the game. Doesn't that kind of undermine the idea that the game is anti-feminist?

Sorry that I misinterpreted your posts and took it to mean that you didn't like the marketing and/or aesthetic of the game - you weren't exactly very clear at first.

-Djinn

[NotMiki]

I don't know anything about the story, but I imagine if they are presenting such an obviously flawed character as the heroine, she will undergo a predictable and inevitable change/redemption by the end of the game. Doesn't that kind of undermine the idea that the game is anti-feminist?

I don't think a game that uses Pout Points as a mechanic is ever gonna project much of a feminist message.  (Besides, the main is already clearly empowered <_<)

I'm still not sure what to make of this.  It's a parody of the 'mario saves the princess' passivity of girls in fantasy video games, which is fine, but that makes it more broadly a parody of girls, which is not fine.  I don't find it personally offensive because I have a the background for the former, but it's easy to see why it's not appropriate in general consumption.

Pretty similar to the RNC mess with 'Barack the Magic Negro,' which is a parody song of Al Sharpton singing about how Barack isn't black enough but those white liberals are going to elect him out of racial guilt anyway.

[hinode]

Frankly, Grefter, I get the sense from your posts here that nothing a videogame company can possibly do to make a game targetted at women that isn't aimed at 7 year old girls and/or condescending. If it's built on traditionally masculine elements it's aimed at males, if it's built on traditionally feminine elements it's casual and thus aimed at everyone in general and thus doesn't count, if it's pink and sparkly it's a thinly veiled insult at any female who's not in still in the Barbie and My Little Pony phase, and if it involves yaoi and bishies it's just pandering to the fujoshi.

At this point, the message that anyone gets is that it's completely impossible to make a "feminist approved female targetted" game, so the only options are to either stop making games entirely, forget about any attempts at being female friendly since that's evidently impossible and just make games that are even more overtly male targetted since they're evidently the only sex that can be targetted without aiming for little kids, or just ignore you completely and keep on doing whatever they're currently doing since you are evidently impossible to please so why even bother.

[Shale]

All I see here is that it's taking a couple of different stereotypes (female video game characters and games for girls in general), mashing them together and then pushing them to 11 for comic value. Japan's done waaaaaay more offensive stuff, probably in the past week.

[DjinnAndTonic]

I don't think a game that uses Pout Points as a mechanic is ever gonna project much of a feminist message.  (Besides, the main is already clearly empowered <_<)

I never thought a game where the main goal is to conquer the Netherworld would revolve around the theme of self-sacrifice, but Disgaea sure showed me.

It's a JRPG story, no matter how flawed your main character, it's their JOB to become perfect heroes (often in a bland, two-dimensional hand wave scene where something traumatic happens to them - but regardless, they always get there). If she starts out as such a horrible person like what I'm seeing Grefter describing, then no amount of "Rule of Funny" will save her from becoming a perfect Mary Sue by the end of the game. It's just kind of how the formula tends to work... Pout Points or whatever game mechanic be damned.

[NotMiki]

Frankly, Grefter, I get the sense from your posts here that nothing a videogame company can possibly do to make a game targetted at women that isn't aimed at 7 year old girls and/or condescending. If it's built on traditionally masculine elements it's aimed at males, if it's built on traditionally feminine elements it's casual and thus aimed at everyone in general and thus doesn't count, if it's pink and sparkly it's a thinly veiled insult at any female who's not in still in the Barbie and My Little Pony phase, and if it involves yaoi and bishies it's just pandering to the fujoshi.

At this point, the message that anyone gets is that it's completely impossible to make a "feminist approved female targetted" game, so the only options are to either stop making games entirely, forget about any attempts at being female friendly since that's evidently impossible and just make games that are even more overtly male targetted since they're evidently the only sex that can be targetted without aiming for little kids, or just ignore you completely and keep on doing whatever they're currently doing since you are evidently impossible to please so why even bother.

Nonsense.  There are games out there that are targeted to males that should not be offensive to feminists.  Take Suikoden 3.

Or take Baldur's Gate.  I'm not remembering it well, but during character creation, when you choose genders the descriptions are something like this: Male: Men are well-rounded and capable/ Female: Women are every bit the equal of men, and capable of anything a man might do.

[Grefter]

Frankly, Grefter, I get the sense from your posts here that nothing a videogame company can possibly do to make a game targetted at women that isn't aimed at 7 year old girls and/or condescending. If it's built on traditionally masculine elements it's aimed at males, if it's built on traditionally feminine elements it's casual and thus aimed at everyone in general and thus doesn't count, if it's pink and sparkly it's a thinly veiled insult at any female who's not in still in the Barbie and My Little Pony phase, and if it involves yaoi and bishies it's just pandering to the fujoshi.

At this point, the message that anyone gets is that it's completely impossible to make a "feminist approved female targetted" game, so the only options are to either stop making games entirely, forget about any attempts at being female friendly since that's evidently impossible and just make games that are even more overtly male targetted since they're evidently the only sex that can be targetted without aiming for little kids, or just ignore you completely and keep on doing whatever they're currently doing since you are evidently impossible to please so why even bother.

Except that you know, they do exist.  Super Princess Peach -actually- does this pretty well.  Sure she is girly, but Feminism doesn't have a problem with Girly.  There are other games that do it as well I am sure.  What Feminism has problems with isn't Girly itself, it is Girly being portrayed as the only thing women have/being what makes them female and the way it is usually portrayed in a negative light.  It can be a part of the character but it shouldn't be the character in it's entirety.

You know what?  I give up. This shit is just a Simpsons Rerun of the Stacey doll episode.

[Dunefar]

Now Ciato can get us all big bowls of strawberry ice cream?

[NotMiki]

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2009/01/05/edgy_snowboard_graphics_test_liberal_vermont/

"More than 100 protesters marched in front of Burton's Burlington headquarters in October to protest the boards and urge consumers to boycott the company's products, according to the Burlington Free Press."

They presumably had just finished picketing local supermarkets who carry Maxim, since the snowboards in question are about as offensive as Maxim covers, and if there's anything that is more of a family-oriented event than snowboarding, going to the supermarket is it.  Because, y'know, doing one but not the other would be silly.

[superaielman]

I'd be in favor of picking Maxim magazine for being so completely worthless.

[Dunefar]

This sounds like another case of impotent public protest.

[hinode]

I'd be in favor of picking Maxim magazine for being so completely worthless.

[superaielman]

http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/ I'm not sure specifically who to IotD here, but the stupid and sheer gall of this request is pretty bad. (The Flynt bailout request.)

[NotMiki]

the stupid and sheer gall of this request is pretty bad.

Yeah, I mean, porn's plenty profitable.  What's next?  Oil?

[Grefter]

Meh, welcome to our respective cultures Super.  The request is just as valid as any other luxury product industry.

[NotMiki]

Speaking of respective cultures...take him back!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2009/01/06/blair_house_mystery_solved_its.html?hpid=topnews

[NotMiki]

http://anidb.net/perl-bin/animedb.pl?show=anime&aid=6182

sometimes I wish I knew Japanese just so I could avoid reading one or two sentence synopses of new anime.  This is usually canceled out by my desire to know as little as possible about a culture capable of producing something like this.  Worst anime ever?  Not that I've watched this one, but there are certainly 4 or 5 I can think of that are at least as bad.

[Xeroma]

Boy, we just keep getting winners, don't we.