Idiot of the Day

[Yakumo]

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/forums/read/7.117080

So some kids go joyriding and decide to find out if the manufacturer was telling the truth about how fast their car could go, with predictably bad results.  Somehow they come out unhurt and with only a slap on the wrist from the cops... until the cops find their Youtube video from before the crash and slap the driver with a four figure fine.

[DjinnAndTonic]

CSI: YouTube Division?

[NotMiki]

http://www.thenewstribune.com/topstories/story/765250.html

He'd better get a damn good grade on that paper.

That belongs in IotD, not Misc links.

yep.

[Xeroma]

http://kotaku.com/5281374/l4d-sequel-met-with-much-more-than-indifference

 Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you RETARDED L4D1 FANBOYS who have been spoiled by Valve over the years.

[Cotigo]

http://kotaku.com/5281374/l4d-sequel-met-with-much-more-than-indifference

 Ladies and Gentleman, I present to you RETARDED L4D1 FANBOYS who have been spoiled by Valve over the years.

Actually?  Most of these complaints are valid. 

• Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered

L4D2 looks a lot like a huge expansion pack for L4D.  Why did they make it a second game that people will probably have to pay $40 for?

• Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release

Obviously; L4D came out a little less than a year ago, so either they started production right away or or as stated previously, L4D2 is a large expansion pack.  If the latter, why the hell isn't it being released as such?

• The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games

Obvious, related to the other two complaints.

• The announced date is not nearly enough time to polish content or make significant gameplay changes

Eh.  Really, it's a different take on complaint #1 and #2.

• The new character designs seem bland and unappealing so far

Okay, this is stupid.

• L4D2 is too bright to fit in with L4D1's visual aesthetic

...This too...

• The fiddle-based horde music is extremely disliked, though the differently orchestrated music is otherwise welcome

My argument is losing validity...

• L4D2's release will result in a drop in quality and frequency for L4D1 content, even compared to before

Well, obviously, but the question brings to mind the complaints of #1 and #2, so it isn't completely retarded.

• The community has lost faith in Valve's former reputation for commitment to their games post-release.

This is pretty stupid, but does recall #1. 

OK, so I guess it's really only two or three of the complaints that are valid; however, these two-three are so enormous that Valve needs to be beaten for deciding to release the game.  L4D2 is probably the worst decision they've made.  Barring a massive (and unlikely) total gameplay overhaul, the game being released as a new game for a new game price instead of as an expansion to the original game is wholly unwarranted. 

[Xeroma]

There are arguements, but I find that it's just not worth complaining about so much. Surely what Valve is doing here isn't nearly as bad as some of the other companies and their franchises.

[superaielman]

More to the point, the completely over the top fan response from some quarters is mockable and deserves enshrining in the IotD Thread.

[Cotigo]

And I really, really disagree; the "overreacting" fanbase is reacting to an incredibly retarded move by Valve that is little more than an attempt to extract more money from its customers without putting out any more work into it.  I highly doubt that anything we will see in L4D2 will be anything revolutionary.  It'll be more of the same, in the same engine, with the same gameplay, only there will be OMG MELEE WEAPONS and also different character models.  Your quick acquiescence to this absolute retardation is what belongs in IOTD, not... ... well, a lot of those complaints belong here too.  That is not the fucking point; it's all god damn stupid. \

EDIT:  And before either of you brings up the "But The HL2 Episodes!!!!11!" thing, at least those games are coming out for ~15 USD.  Left 4 Dead 2, as a "complete" sequel, will probably be for anywhere between 30-50 bucks.  Not at all the same thing.

[SageAcrin]

• Significant content for L4D1 was promised, and never delivered

L4D2 looks a lot like a huge expansion pack for L4D.  Why did they make it a second game that people will probably have to pay $40 for?

• Valve put little faith in L4D1 since they almost certainly started working on L4D2 right after release

Obviously; L4D came out a little less than a year ago, so either they started production right away or or as stated previously, L4D2 is a large expansion pack.  If the latter, why the hell isn't it being released as such?

• The fact that L4D2 is nearly identical to L4D1 will decimate the community for both games

Obvious, related to the other two complaints.

Game's not out yet so you can't complain about it's quality/differences and the community gets decimated by every sequel and often other major FPSes getting released.

Game is not out yet, cannot peg price, although you're right that it will probably cost more. So what, it's a game company, if they actually make something with enough differences to be worth the money, it's worth the money. Too early to call.

Even trailers, etc., just don't say anything yet because there's too much potential that a game will get delayed for higher polish. Possibly because people are complaining.

Either way, people whining about a sequel to the game they like for any reason, before it's out and before they see any conceptual problems with it, merely because it will exist and will be coming out really fast seems like it belongs in IotD, just conceptually. It sounds bad, but people can wait until the drat game is actually not an improvement before they say it's not an improvement.

Pessimism can be reasonable but that level of it is really dumb. It's like whining about someone waving a knife around stabbing you before you get stabbed. The actual, reasonable reaction is mild peeve and then you get pissed when the person doesn't listen to you and stab you. Same thing here.

[metroid composite]

Either way, people whining about a sequel to the game they like for any reason, before it's out and before they see any conceptual problems with it, merely because it will exist and will be coming out really fast seems like it belongs in IotD, just conceptually. It sounds bad, but people can wait until the drat game is actually not an improvement before they say it's not an improvement.

You said it yourself, though: community always gets cannibalized/split from Sequels, so this is a reasonable complaint.  If they wait for the actual release before complaining, it will be too late to fix the problem.

There are arguements, but I find that it's just not worth complaining about so much. Surely what Valve is doing here isn't nearly as bad as some of the other companies and their franchises.

Well sure, but we expect better from Valve, and reward their good behavior with our wallets.  If L4D hadn't been a Valve game, I probably wouldn't have bought it.

[Shale]

There's also the factor that, when you buy a pure-online game like L4D or TF2, you expect to keep playing it for a while. Putting out a full sequel a year later means even the people who don't buy it are suddenly part of a much smaller community than they bargained for.

Plus the fact that this is the exact opposite of what Valve did with TF2, so if nothing else it's extremely jarring.

[metroid composite]

Doing and has continued to do.  How many TF2 class updates have they done in 2009?  Three?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining seeing as I care about TF2 updates a lot, and don't care about L4D updates really at all.  However I can see how L4D fans might be miffed >_>

[NotMiki]

Am I the only person who thinks the title of the spurned game makes this whole situation completely hilarious?

[Cotigo]

Game's not out yet so you can't complain about it's quality/differences and the community gets decimated by every sequel and often other major FPSes getting released.

Purely online game = Keeping the player base whole is priority.  You can very damn well complain about nobody playing L4D1 because they released the same damn game but with a few more features and levels on a new game that plays on different servers.  

Game is not out yet, cannot peg price, although you're right that it will probably cost more. So what, it's a game company, if they actually make something with enough differences to be worth the money, it's worth the money. Too early to call.

Yes, the price may not be a full priced game.  I doubt that, since the release of L4D2 will probably mean nobody plays L4D1 anymore, so they wouldn't want to miss out on that money.  And this "too early to call" shit is pure BS; unless they've been in a fucking time machine, I highly doubt they've done much to completely revamp the system in one fucking year.

Even trailers, etc., just don't say anything yet because there's too much potential that a game will get delayed for higher polish. Possibly because people are complaining.

Either way, people whining about a sequel to the game they like for any reason, before it's out and before they see any conceptual problems with it, merely because it will exist and will be coming out really fast seems like it belongs in IotD, just conceptually. It sounds bad, but people can wait until the drat game is actually not an improvement before they say it's not an improvement.

"YUO CANT COMPLEIN UNTIL U SEE IT" is stupid.  No, we don't know exactly what the game will be like.  Given it's announcement less than a full year after the original release of the game, combined with its release date being set STILL less than a full year after the original release, we can damn well predict that not much has changed.  We don't know details but we can make educated guesses, and all signs point to stupid.

Pessimism can be reasonable but that level of it is really dumb. It's like whining about someone waving a knife around stabbing you before you get stabbed. The actual, reasonable reaction is mild peeve and then you get pissed when the person doesn't listen to you and stab you. Same thing here.

Fair enough, I suppose, but it's an inaccurate metaphor.  There's a lot that one can extrapolate given the details we have, and none of it really justifies the game being released as a full game.  A lot of the arguments bashing the game are stupid, yes, but almost all of the counterarguments against those that are valid boil down to "JUST W8 AND SEE."  Given that my money may be spent on something like this, that is fucking bullshit.  Valve has done better before, and I damn well expect better of them now.  

[Grefter]

Not to say I question the frequency of release here, but the argument is still pretty retarded.  If they started developing the sequel straight away (or prior to release even more so), that means they had a lot of faith in the game.  More faith they probably should have as a business.  It has panned out as expected though (because the game is fucking awesome).

Also for the change in art direction, well the change in art direction is actually one of the reasons I don't mind it being a completely separate game. Melee weapons in L4D would have been kind of shit.  This was a grim, dark, brutal have to work as a team to survive style Romero zombie flick homage.  L4D2 on the other hand is a splatter flick homage.  Braindead and the like.  Melee weapons are king.  What I want is for there to be traps involving running power tools so you can push the enemies into over turned lawnmowers and such.  Shit like that is pure Zombie flick shtick but has no place in the original L4D.

[DomaDragoon]

Doing and has continued to do.  How many TF2 class updates have they done in 2009?  Three?

Sure, for the PC. I'm really annoyed that we haven't gotten anything for 360. Granted, I understand the concerns that Valve has with the system/memory capabilities for the class changes and new game styles (and it does make logical sense that they'd wait for all the class updates to be done), but not even one or two new maps for the current modes? I want a new Capture the Flag and Attack/Defend map that I can play with the 360 without spending lots of money to upgrade my computer. 

[Cotigo]

Mm.  Now there's a fair point; I suppose a huge stylistic change could justify the game's release as a separate game... at least partially.  And Doma does remind me of another fair point:  this is a much kinder system for 360 owners; the TF2 updates are perfect for PC but as far as I know adding much of anything to the 360 will take up large amounts of space.

But that point does just remind the PC community that Valve's reverting to the same old bullshit console players have been dealing with for years and shouldn't have to deal with, especially since they've proven with their little TF2 experiment that it's possible.  Not to mention that one really shouldn't be splitting the audience for an online-only game mere months after its release.  And I'm also not entirely sure why the updates can't just be saved onto and accessed through the 360's hard drive.  Further, the fact that a stylistic change is as of yet the best argument for releasing it as a new game strikes me as pretty damn fail.  

[Grefter]

Oh I still agree whole wholehearted that the timing is really shitty.  They aren't really doing themselves any favours, they were never going to with a release like this though.  If they put it off to long then it would get the same response Diablo 3 did with the art direction (Not dark anymore!  All cartoony!) and they would have been accused of making a sequel that is nothing like the original.  Double edged sword to release similar sequel with some fundamentals changed.

Sooooo... we are left with the fact that the game will have to be pretty fucking good to garner positive response, but that is how it should be anyway.  The game shouldn't get a free pass just because it is the sequel to a good game or because Valve make it.

[SageAcrin]

You said it yourself, though: community always gets cannibalized/split from Sequels, so this is a reasonable complaint.  If they wait for the actual release before complaining, it will be too late to fix the problem.

Mmmm. I...suppose, but I really have my doubts that there's a fix that's not incredibly unreasonable amounts of effort.

Although, Valve might actually be weird enough to put in some kind of L4D vs L4D2 mode potential(although obviously that would have to be limited), so I suppose it's a valid point on that. I don't know if it's reasonable to be annoyed if they do not, though. Eh.

Also, ironically, the very thing that would make L4D vs L4D2 fights even possible would be the same thing that would make people ticked about L4D2; That is, them ending up very similar. Otherwise it just wouldn't be reasonably feasible.

I'd remark on Zenny's counters, but really, Grefter made better points for a sequel actually existing than I ever could have, barring the one point that is basically answered by the above, so.

Seriously, though, I would like to point out that you can do an awful lot if you're not retooling the engine, etc., in a year. It's as much about how much money goes into a game over that span.

I mean, yeah, it's only a year, but FFX-2 was only 18 months or so and was not in development when the original was(At least, not that I ever heard of.). Yes, FFX-2 had it's issues, but that was mostly the basic concepts they went after with it(WOO GIRLZ RUNNING AROUND SPIRA GURL POWA), not the timeframe; The game felt notably different from the original in some very fundamental ways, and polished.

I suppose sports games could argue the other way, but most of the notable ones are made by EA. EA is not a shining beacon of enlightened gaming development here.

[metroid composite]

Seriously, though, I would like to point out that you can do an awful lot if you're not retooling the engine, etc., in a year. It's as much about how much money goes into a game over that span.

I mean, yeah, it's only a year, but FFX-2 was only 18 months or so and was not in development when the original was(At least, not that I ever heard of.).

As someone who has done the 12 month development cycle on an already existing engine, there is a huge, huge difference between 12 months and 18 months.  You basically can't revamp any core systems in 12 months, and generally your game will slip in quality every iteration (see: Tony Hawk) unless you go from a crappy dev team to a competent dev team (see THAW -> THP8).  The only real way to pull off quality once a year is to have two development teams each doing a two-year development cycle.

[Cotigo]

Or to have a game series that is relatively simplistic and unchanged  on the gameplay side but changes with each iteration (Guitar Hero)

[NotMiki]

Or to have a game series that is relatively simplistic and unchanged  on the gameplay side but changes with each iteration (Guitar Hero)

ugh, don't get me started.  DDR:X, the latest PS2 entry, needs a second to load the sample loops of music in the selection screen every time you switch tracks.  Wasn't like that in previous versions, and is frankly unforgivable from a design perspective.

[Cotigo]

Yeah, GH4 has the same damn problem, and the load times for everything else are horrendous.  The thing is that the PS2 is, like it or not, a 4-year-out-of-current-gen system so devs have all but stopped putting games out for it.  And porting PS3/360/Wii games to a system with weaker hardware inevitably produces terrible ports. 

[metroid composite]

Or to have a game series that is relatively simplistic and unchanged  on the gameplay side but changes with each iteration (Guitar Hero)

Well, sure, the Guitar Hero series is basically expansion packs at this point; that's how Activision is releasing like...five of them a year.  Granted, they are using parallel studios for this.

[hinode]

“If you look back at previous lifecycles, like PS2 versus N64 [sic], we have lots of data that suggests that lots of people bought into N64 as their entry level gaming device, and were happy to upgrade to a more powerful machine later in the lifecycle when the price point was right for them,” the executive told Official PlayStation Magazine in an interview published today.

http://www.edge-online.com/news/scee-wii-owners-will-upgrade-to-ps3

I'm beginning to think the problem with Sony is that it lets its employees drink heavily while on the job.