Author Topic: Fiction Discussion and stuff (WoT SPOILERS HEREIN)  (Read 7486 times)

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Fiction Discussion and stuff (WoT SPOILERS HEREIN)
« on: June 23, 2008, 10:34:14 PM »
http://aidanmoher.com/blog/?p=186

Top 100 SciFi/Fantasy writers, as done by a UK magazine.

No, the top spot is not Tolkein.

Complaints: Dan Simmons is only 63. Also Frank Herbert's son being on the list at all.

Jordan and Rowling over Ray Bradbury and William Gibson is a travesty. That said, most of the people on the list should be there, I just have my share of quibbles over the order. Pratchett as #1 makes me happy, of course (preeeetty sure that wouldn't have happened with an American-made list).

Also, sadness about Carlin.

---

EDIT: Wheel of Time spoilers herein. Also people arguing about the subjective merits of various works of fiction. Abandon all hope ye who enter here and so on.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2008, 01:43:39 AM by El Cideon »

Dark Holy Elf

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2008, 03:13:00 AM »
Unshockingly I couldn't disagree with El Cid more. Bradbury is boring and at times repetitively moralistic, while Gibson is just unreadable. I respect their importance as writers, but it's obvious you aren't using that as criteria for the list, or you wouldn't be singling out the two you did as not belonging.

Yeah, plenty of quibbles with the order myself, but most everyone I know of deserves to be there, whether I like them or not.

^_^ at Hobb being that high; I thought she was less well-known.

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Sierra

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2008, 05:43:36 PM »
Unshockingly I couldn't disagree with El Cid more. Bradbury is boring and at times repetitively moralistic, while Gibson is just unreadable. I respect their importance as writers, but it's obvious you aren't using that as criteria for the list, or you wouldn't be singling out the two you did as not belonging.

Yeah, plenty of quibbles with the order myself, but most everyone I know of deserves to be there, whether I like them or not.

^_^ at Hobb being that high; I thought she was less well-known.

I didn't say Jordan and Rowling shouldn't be on the list. I said them being as high as they are is absurd. I don't find Bradbury at all boring, or Gibson unreadable. Quite the contrary, both do wonderful things with language that make them a joy to read. Beneath Bradbury's veneer of strident pessimism is an affirmation of the simple joy of being alive which I find most refreshing, and Gibson plays on the interactions of technology and culture better than almost anyone I can think of (right up to the present day, belaying any concerns that he became obsolete with eighties--I just finished Spooky Country and should rave about it in the Books topic). I'll take either approach over Epic Scale any day, and fun as they can be, that's about all Jordan and Rowling have going for them. Then again, this is coming from the guy who said Terry Pratchett was boring and unfunny, so I've gotta assume that such details as personality and style pale in the face of the all-important metaplot.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #3 on: June 24, 2008, 06:31:47 PM »
"The All-Important Metaplot" would make a good indie band name.

I have no further comments because it turns out I don't actually read that much fantasy, since most of the authors up there are either people I've been meaning to read and putting off (Pratchet, Gailman) or Jordan/R.R. Martin/Rowling.  >_>

EDIT:  Also... Wow.  Carlin passing is a damn shame.  He was one of my idols in high school, and his comedy routine still makes me laugh. 

Still, could be worse.  At least he died an old man, and lived a long life.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 06:37:53 PM by Zenthor »

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #4 on: June 24, 2008, 06:35:41 PM »
Jack Vance being multiple dozens of spots under people like Jim Butcher and Anne McCaffrey makes me sad. Also, any list of great authors with Terry Goodkind on it is a list worth setting fire to.
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #5 on: June 24, 2008, 06:36:40 PM »
Quote
I didn't say Jordan and Rowling shouldn't be on the list. I said them being as high as they are is absurd. I don't find Bradbury at all boring, or Gibson unreadable. Quite the contrary, both do wonderful things with language that make them a joy to read. Beneath Bradbury's veneer of strident pessimism is an affirmation of the simple joy of being alive which I find most refreshing, and Gibson plays on the interactions of technology and culture better than almost anyone I can think of (right up to the present day, belaying any concerns that he became obsolete with eighties--I just finished Spooky Country and should rave about it in the Books topic). I'll take either approach over Epic Scale any day, and fun as they can be, that's about all Jordan and Rowling have going for them. Then again, this is coming from the guy who said Terry Pratchett was boring and unfunny, so I've gotta assume that such details as personality and style pale in the face of the all-important metaplot.

Right, it's impossible for someone to like different styles than you. I forgot. It's a good thing you're here to inform us masses of our mistakes.

Regarding Pratchett in particular, I have long acknowledged that he deserves another chance from me - Good Omens was simply not to my tastes at all. It's still hard to get past a bad start (same reason I've never played another N1 game even though some sound objectively promising), even knowing said book isn't indicative of his work in general.

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Sierra

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #6 on: June 24, 2008, 11:15:08 PM »
Right, it's impossible for someone to like different styles than you. I forgot. It's a good thing you're here to inform us masses of our mistakes.

Ice burn. For what it's worth, this is pretty much the impression I got from your post as well. At least I made an attempt to explain my position before turning into Snidely Whiplash. One-liners don't impress me, man, nor does writing someone off as an elitist without actually providing a substantial counterpoint. As for Jordan and Rowling, I don't see much reason to consider either "important as a writer." Sure, they sell a lot of books. So what? That doesn't mean they're anything more than the flavor of the moment if the work can't withstand scrutiny years after it's heyday. Obviously the jury's still out on that, but I have a hard time seeing either be as influential as a great many of the people below them on that list. WoT and HP both are pretty basic, meat-and-potates fantasy. That's fine if you can put a good spin on it, but Jordan in particular commits the cardinal sin of being a dull writer. This isn't a matter of preferring one style over another; this is a matter of him not really having any. Divorced totally from the actual ideas and stories within his books (which I'm not touching right now), the actual prose is uninspired and repetitive. Does he have to say "So-and-so looked poleaxed" every time one of the main guys is surprised? I've read several metric tonnes of fantasy by now; if someone's going to write about an Epic Battle Between Good and Evil, I need to see something novel in the presentation, and I don't find that here (Rowling at least has a decent sense of humor). He turns out solid fluff, and that was fine in high school, but I have different standards now and he doesn't match up anymore. If what to me seems like dry and uninventive writing constitutes an actual "style," then I have to wonder what makes it so compelling to you. Feel free to explain; I actually will listen. And not just because that would be more interesting to read than another insult. (In the world of the Cid, the worthwhile debates are the ones where you come away understanding the other side better. Any jackass can have a shouting match).

I'm aware I'm not gonna change your mind about anything here, but hopefully you see where I'm coming from? Otherwise, we're cool just as long as you don't start hyping Terry Goodkind at me. Then the gloves come off.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #7 on: June 24, 2008, 11:24:06 PM »
Girls, girls. Why are we fighting about fantasy novels when we could be discussing the Babysitter's Club? Now that is good fiction.

And by this, I mean cut the stupid shit out. If you want to argue about books, do it elsewhere.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2008, 11:40:02 PM by Ciato »
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Sierra

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #8 on: June 25, 2008, 12:06:15 AM »
*Points to England* They started it, mum.

Yeah, alright, I'm done here.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #9 on: June 25, 2008, 12:06:22 AM »
Lies, Ciato. Sweet Valley High > Babysitter's Club

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #10 on: June 25, 2008, 12:08:54 AM »
Yeah, that one has more repressed lesbianism.

Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 12:23:59 AM »
Indeed, but Babysitter's Club had it's moments. The responsibility, the obligations, the pressure...

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #12 on: June 25, 2008, 12:41:20 AM »
It's a tough job in a man's world.
Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #13 on: June 25, 2008, 04:12:52 AM »
Quote
As for Jordan and Rowling, I don't see much reason to consider either "important as a writer." Sure, they sell a lot of books. So what? That doesn't mean they're anything more than the flavor of the moment if the work can't withstand scrutiny years after it's heyday.

The list was "top 100 sf/f writers", not "100 most important", though.  If time-tested "importance" was the primary criteria you'd have to cut the list way down from 100 (25 feels like a stretch even), Asimov would be the runaway winner, and probably nobody on the fantasy side would merit the list except Tolkien; Robert Howard would be my second choice for that, I guess, people by and large tend to have heard of Conan at least.  Terry Pratchett for one isn't any more time-tested than Rowling or Jordan, regardless of what their relative qualities as a writer may be.

EDIT: After checking again, apparantly the list was "favorite authors", not "best" by any criteria anyways.  So yeah, complaining about other peoples' tastes not matching yours exactly is a futile waste of time, if not a bit egotistical.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 08:21:54 AM by hinode »

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #14 on: June 25, 2008, 05:47:51 AM »
Isaac Asimov is number fucking SIX? JK Rowling, who writes books that use sixth-grade vocabulary, ranks higher than Stephenson? Fuck you, list. Go have a train run on you by Freegans.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #15 on: June 25, 2008, 05:52:23 AM »
Who I've actually read from that list:
78. George Orwell
36. Orson Scott Card
25. CS Lewis
20. Stephen King
19. Ray Bradbury
18. Arthur C. Clarke
16. JK Rowling
14. Frank Herbert
6. Isaac Asimov
2. JRR Tolkien

...No, I haven't read Pratchett, Heinlein, Lovecraft, Vern, or Wells enough to say that I've actually read them. Shame on me.

For the record, Bradbury is one of my favorite authors.
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #16 on: June 25, 2008, 07:14:45 AM »
Isaac Asimov is number fucking SIX? JK Rowling, who writes books that use sixth-grade vocabulary, ranks higher than Stephenson? Fuck you, list. Go have a train run on you by Freegans.

I'll agree that Stephenson should be higher, but I've always found him overhyped due to his annoying tendency to go on ten page rants about some historical or philosophical bullshit that has little or nothing to do with the story at hand. All the Sumerian civilization stuff SERIOUSLY took me out of Snow Crash. It was interesting for the first couple pages, but we don't need multiple 10-20 page sections of it. It was more in place in say, the Baroque books, but really slowed down and hurt Snow Crash.

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« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 07:16:16 AM by Hunter Sopko »

Anthony Edward Stark

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #17 on: June 25, 2008, 09:10:21 AM »
I'll agree that Stephenson should be higher, but I've always found him overhyped due to his annoying tendency to go on ten page rants about some historical or philosophical bullshit that has little or nothing to do with the story at hand. All the Sumerian civilization stuff SERIOUSLY took me out of Snow Crash. It was interesting for the first couple pages, but we don't need multiple 10-20 page sections of it. It was more in place in say, the Baroque books, but really slowed down and hurt Snow Crash.


I had no problem with it, but I almost majored in History (and before that, Literature) before realizing it was a bullshit major that didn't go anywhere and opted for Law, so... hey.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #18 on: June 25, 2008, 10:13:22 AM »
Quote
As for Jordan and Rowling, I don't see much reason to consider either "important as a writer." Sure, they sell a lot of books. So what? That doesn't mean they're anything more than the flavor of the moment if the work can't withstand scrutiny years after it's heyday.
The list was "top 100 sf/f writers", not "100 most important", though.

"Importance" wasn't part of my criteria. I was just responding to a line of the Elf's. And really, the day we stop bitching over differences of opinion is the day the DL stops existing.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #19 on: June 25, 2008, 12:29:46 PM »
Quote
"Importance" wasn't part of my criteria. I was just responding to a line of the Elf's. And really, the day we stop bitching over differences of opinion is the day the DL stops existing.

Point, but I'll say that not all opinions are equal.  With questions like "who's the best author?" or "who would win in a fight?" it's at least possible to provide objective facts to back up your subjective opinions.  There's at least room for interesting debate, with the potential of changing someone's mind - even if the odds aren't great on that at times.  On the other hand, "what I like" is the most subjective thing ever and nothing you say will ever change the mind of someone who really likes, say Wheel of Time or Tom Clancy novels or *shudders* Ayn Rand books.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #20 on: June 25, 2008, 12:32:52 PM »
Quote
I had no problem with it, but I almost majored in History (and before that, Literature) before realizing it was a bullshit major that didn't go anywhere and opted for Law, so... hey.

Wow Rob, that was like something I never expected to ever read.  Law of all things?

For what it is worth, Lovecraft is worthy of long time effect, pretty much any modern horror that isn't a slasher has something of his stuff in it.  For anyone that hasn't tried Pratchett yet or has tried only Good Omens (there is a lot of Neil Gaiman in there Elf), go find someone that knows the genres you like and get them to reccomend a book to you.  The main thing to remember with Pratchett is that he writes parodies, if he is parodying a genre that you don't give a shit about then of course it will mean nothing to you.

Also SOMEONE has to read Robert Rankin or Kim Stanley Robinson.

Edit - Wow, just actualyl checked the list.  I did not expect Robert Rankin to score that high or Kim Stanley Robinson to score that low.  Insanely postmodern surrealist comedy scores way higher than hard science fiction?  Weird.  I guess the fantasy stuff is a bit top heavy and Rankin is closer to that than uh anything to do with science, but he mostly writes in modern settings... so whatever.
« Last Edit: June 25, 2008, 12:35:27 PM by Grefter »
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #21 on: June 25, 2008, 02:25:06 PM »
Well, it was a British list. Probably why Rankin was so high. And I actually have read Red Mars, Grefter, just never got around to the others.

In any event, we should probably move this to the Books topic before Ciato kills us all.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #22 on: June 25, 2008, 07:27:31 PM »
Quote
As for Jordan and Rowling, I don't see much reason to consider either "important as a writer."

As hinode observed, this list isn't judging importance as a writer, and I'm not sure where you got the idea I thought it was? Looking back, it's when I said "I respect their importance as writers" but went on to say that wasn't how either of us were judging this list! So if neither of us is, let's just drop this point and admit we're sniping over subjectivity.

Quote
. This isn't a matter of preferring one style over another; this is a matter of him not really having any.

And this is the kind of logic that infuriates me, because I disagree very strongly. Jordan DOES have a style. It's a style that appeals to millions of readers, a good number of critics, and well, me. Same goes for Rowling. These styles do not appeal to you. That's okay! Say the style sucks if you must (I'm obviously quite willing to do this!), but not that it doesn't exist (and therefore we are inferior because we can't even see this). Maybe I'm touchy but I find that insulting. And if you insult everyone who enjoys Jordan and/or Rowling, that means you're insulting the vast majority of my friends. Hence my being less than nice towards you in the last post.

Quote
If what to me seems like dry and uninventive writing constitutes an actual "style," then I have to wonder what makes it so compelling to you.

Obviously, just because you find it dry and uninventive doesn't mean everyone does. In fact it should be incredibly obvious that a huge number of people don't. The fact that intelligent adults, and people you respect, are able to read, enjoy, and praise these books should be evidence enough of that.

I can post a defence of the appeal of Jordan's writing if you want. (Actually I wrote a brief one already, then decided not to post it for sake of not derailing the topic.) But yeah, that probably doesn't belong here.

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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #23 on: June 25, 2008, 08:42:16 PM »
Ciato: Can you split the sci-fi stuff into it's own topic?
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Re: Miscellaneous Links 2 - The Vengeance
« Reply #24 on: June 25, 2008, 10:10:05 PM »
For the love of god, what have I wrought?
Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.