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So which one are you voting for, huh?!

John McCain
3 (9.4%)
Barack Obama
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Total Members Voted: 31

Author Topic: Grand political roundup  (Read 54135 times)

Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #325 on: October 16, 2008, 12:40:45 PM »
I am the Internet, I do not recognize subtlety.

Also yeah, but it makes things that much more bitchy.

How much do you want to bet on the right not letting the charges of "Vote Fraud" drop if Obama wins, continuing to claim he cheated to win the election?

Say what I will about the left, they tend to have the good grace to let something drop, even if they'd benefit politically.

(Arguably their spines can't carry it for long enough. But, hey.)

Also posting it here since I don't feel like posting again; there are far more problematic voter registrations than I was thinking there was at first glance, but it's still diminutive compared to how many legit ones there are. So eh.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2008, 01:25:40 PM by Taishyr »

Cotigo

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #326 on: October 16, 2008, 12:48:45 PM »
I would hope that, if there were a large margin come the election between Obama and McCain, such allegations wouldn't be taken too seriously.  I would also hope that people are smart enough to distinguish voter registration fraud and voter voting fraud. 

I would hope, anyway, if I didn't know that it was going to be the other way around and that the media will be stupid about this.

NotMiki

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #327 on: October 16, 2008, 01:01:15 PM »
There's a lot that could be said about what a phony issue the ACORN stuff is, but I'll leave it at this: you remember that attorney firing scandal?  One of the cases an attorney was fired for not pursuing?  You guessed it, prosecuting ACORN for voter registration fraud.

For anyone who finds the ACORN crap frustrating, this might brighten your day:

http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2008/10/montana_gop_chief_out_after_fa.php

The judge summarily throwing out the charges: "The timing of these challenges is so transparent that it defies common sense to believe the purpose is anything but political chicanery."
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AAA

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #328 on: October 16, 2008, 04:15:55 PM »
The ACORN thing doesn't seem to be taking much hold, anyway. There's a lot of buzz about it as far as sites favoring the right/hating Obama are concerned, but independents and people wavering on Obama don't seem to know about it or seem to care.
Don't think of it as a novel. Think of it as a chance to retroactively win every argument you have ever walked away from.

metroid composite

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #329 on: October 17, 2008, 01:54:14 AM »
People expect an instant fix because it is what we are used to. "Take this pill and you will become better." "Buy this and you will be more popular." "This perfume/clothing/xyz is the hip new thing, buy it." We do not comprehend easily, as a result, more long-term plans and solutions. We expect to see the change automatically, we expect everything to end dramatically for our sakes so that we can say "this is when it ended".
Hmm...from this Gamasutra article:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3675/the_pursuit_of_games_designing_.php?page=3

Scientists believe we are biologically primed to have greater loss aversion than a desire for gains. Why do we hold on to losing stocks, telling ourselves it's not a loss until you sell it? There are innumerable theories as to why we have evolved this way, but so strong is this factor that we also tend to expect greater rewards for delayed gratification. Would you rather have $50 now, or $60 next year (forget inflation for a moment)?

A lot of popular culture is built around this same theory.  The Ugly Duckling, for instance.  Goes through a crappier childhood and then turns into a swan.

The problem when it comes to the government is that nobody likes to have their taxes raised; that's an immediate loss.  Nevermind that it's going towards a long-term plan that will help them in the future. 

However, at the same time I think it would be inaccurate to say that people don't understand long-term plans.  Some examples from teenage years:
1. I wanna be tall (takes time; influenced by diet)
2. I want to grow my hair out (takes time+work)
3. I want to build up muscles (takes time+work)
4. I wanna have boobies (takes time; influenced by diet)
Even the shallowest of people tend to think and work towards one of these four things when they're a shallow teenager.  Oh, and let's not forget:
5. I wanna reach level 70 with my Night-Elf Warrior in WoW (takes time+work)
6. I wanna get 1,000 MySpace friends (takes time+work)
7. I wanna get lots of GameFAQs Karma (takes time+work)
There are some intelligent Myspace/WoW/GameFAQs users, but these websites are hardly paragons of intelligence.  Yet you see plenty of people obsessing over things that require longer-term work to achieve.
« Last Edit: October 17, 2008, 02:00:46 AM by metroid composite »

Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #330 on: October 17, 2008, 02:13:43 AM »
This is true, and yet I'd argue that they're the exception to the rule in some ways, as they are notable in doing this... because others do not. Else it would not be setting them on a different tier, so to speak.

Admittedly I perhaps give people far less credit, but. While there are those who easily plan - and, a few, achieve - long-term goals,  the comprehension of long term goals to the public at large is not easily managed, I would still say.

And there is still the inclination for the dramatic end that I think most prefer, at least in foresight.

This being said, thanks for the link, I think I'll enjoy musing through that.

metroid composite

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #331 on: October 17, 2008, 03:38:34 AM »
This is true, and yet I'd argue that they're the exception to the rule in some ways, as they are notable in doing this... because others do not. Else it would not be setting them on a different tier, so to speak.
They're set on a different tier because they specialize.  I mean, I'm level 0 in Myspace, Level 0 in Wow, and Level 3176 on GameFAQs.  Back in university I knew some high school girls who could destroy me in Backstreet Boys trivia.  I've met teenagers who seemed to be considered the neighborhood expert on the Yu-Gi-Oh playing card game.

But...okay, so you claim that there are people who don't make long-term plans.  What exactly do they do?  I mean, I'm just thinking through relatives; I have several relatives who are farmers, but that's hardcore 8-month planning.  Teachers?  Gotta plan a curriculum.  A cousin who planned to become a hairdresser, and went to hairdressing school despite her parent's objections; obviously her capacity for planning is quite strong.  People who like planting gardens?  Planning.

Honestly, I'm having trouble imagining these people who don't plan--do they work at McDonalds and have no hobbies?

Yakumo

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #332 on: October 17, 2008, 04:44:03 AM »
Bringing up people like farmers is kinda not relevant here as, quite frankly, the people who do that sort of thing are a whole lot different than your average urban dweller, but the vast majority of the population is urban.  Sure, they're heavy planners, but their lifestyle requires it.  Your average person isn't going to base their life around what's growing in their backyard, so to speak.  Joe Public in the big city is the type of person that calls me when their cell phone goes out claiming their life is ruined because they can't get everything done NOWNOWNOW and don't have the patience to find a way around even that simple of an inconvenience.

Teachers plan a curriculum, but even then it's a eight month thing that then gets reused with minor changes over and over again, and is often at least partly copied from other sources.  That's not long term planning, really, it's still fairly short term in the overall scheme of things.

Individual people may be good at planning, but that just puts more weight on what Tai said: if it was really that common for people to plan long in advance, that story about the hairdresser cousin wouldn't be abnormal, or possibly would because the parents wouldn't object because they would expect the planning to work.

Basically, what I'm trying to get around to and not finding a good way to get to it is, if people have any way that they can get benefits in the short term that don't require the long term, they take it.  They see the good things, and don't stop to think about what this means down the road.  The same thing happens if they're forced to take a short term hit that will benefit them in the long run; they don't look past now.  The things you're bringing up, while they aren't totally invalid, are also things that generally don't -have- the short term solution in the first place.  You brought up farmers, but there is no short term solution to getting food, there has to be the farms.  Teachers have to plan a curriculum, there's no other way you can teach.  If you just skip ahead, the students won't understand the basics and won't be able to learn anything(not that they really do anyway these days, but that's a separate topic).  Also, things like games aren't really good long term plans, and even then, there's a lot of people that start it because it sounds cool, but when they find out how much effort it takes to get that character up to 70 in WoW or whatever, suddenly decide all of a sudden that they don't want to do it anymore.  Which I mention because it's not that people are planning out how they're going to get to that point, they're playing around with a vague goal of  getting there, they don't know what they're getting into and haven't actually planned for it.

Hmm.  I got a little long winded and I'm not sure that's entirely clear.  Well, basically, I'm saying people in general, not everyone, only bothers with long term plans if there's not a short term solution, and if the short term of a long term solution is bad for them, they don't bother looking to check the whole thing.  At least that's my opinion from people I know and have interacted with.

Cotigo

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #333 on: October 17, 2008, 09:52:29 AM »
Additionally, Met... exactly how many people do you know who actually learn from those biological things you mentioned?  Very few people I know learn the use of long term planning from "lol i want muscles;" most people who exercize to that point do it because of the rush of endorphins they get from working out--meanwhile, out of shape people just get a rush of shame and remain out of shape.  The result is an afterthought.  And bringing up "I want to be tall" is stupid because that relies so heavily on genetics that it doesn't count.

For each of those things you mentioned (aside from farming, teaching, etc., which more arise out of necessity) for the most part the people who do them do them first for the initial benefit--GameFAQs provides ... a sort of community, WoW a distraction and some fun, and Myspace a distraction and ... another sort of... community.  Of morons.  But that's beside the point. 

And do you really think that those girls destroyed you in Backstreet Boys trivia because they set a goal to be knowledgable about the band?  Fuck no, that's dumb--they did it because they liked the band and wanted to know more about them; that they became good at trivia because of it was incidental.  For every point you brought up, either there was not a short term solution, or the long term plan was incident and arose out of the immediate consequences each action had.

Hunter Sopko

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #334 on: October 17, 2008, 01:50:26 PM »
People expect an instant fix because it is what we are used to. "Take this pill and you will become better." "Buy this and you will be more popular." "This perfume/clothing/xyz is the hip new thing, buy it." We do not comprehend easily, as a result, more long-term plans and solutions. We expect to see the change automatically, we expect everything to end dramatically for our sakes so that we can say "this is when it ended".
Hmm...from this Gamasutra article:

http://www.gamasutra.com/view/feature/3675/the_pursuit_of_games_designing_.php?page=3

Scientists believe we are biologically primed to have greater loss aversion than a desire for gains. Why do we hold on to losing stocks, telling ourselves it's not a loss until you sell it? There are innumerable theories as to why we have evolved this way, but so strong is this factor that we also tend to expect greater rewards for delayed gratification. Would you rather have $50 now, or $60 next year (forget inflation for a moment)?

A lot of popular culture is built around this same theory.  The Ugly Duckling, for instance.  Goes through a crappier childhood and then turns into a swan.

The problem when it comes to the government is that nobody likes to have their taxes raised; that's an immediate loss.  Nevermind that it's going towards a long-term plan that will help them in the future. 

However, at the same time I think it would be inaccurate to say that people don't understand long-term plans.  Some examples from teenage years:
1. I wanna be tall (takes time; influenced by diet)
2. I want to grow my hair out (takes time+work)
3. I want to build up muscles (takes time+work)
4. I wanna have boobies (takes time; influenced by diet)
Even the shallowest of people tend to think and work towards one of these four things when they're a shallow teenager.  Oh, and let's not forget:
5. I wanna reach level 70 with my Night-Elf Warrior in WoW (takes time+work)
6. I wanna get 1,000 MySpace friends (takes time+work)
7. I wanna get lots of GameFAQs Karma (takes time+work)
There are some intelligent Myspace/WoW/GameFAQs users, but these websites are hardly paragons of intelligence.  Yet you see plenty of people obsessing over things that require longer-term work to achieve.

I would argue that all of these are infinitely easier to control/plan for than money (except for maybe the height thing). A long term plan involving money is a lot more complex and harder to plan for than any of these and involves a lot more incidentals. And control really is the key term here. We have no control over the market, and obtaining a mastery of it is dubious at best. Currency values go up and down, so even if we save a lot, it could all turn meaningless if inflation soars. Yakko's right too in that people will most likely always go for the short term solution. It's the direction America has been going since, hell, it was founded. The mindset has always been there, but it was always tempered by technology and societal norms. Those have changed. The former allows faster solutions than ever before, and they're widespread enough that people have come to expect it everywhere. The latter changed along with technology, whats normal is fast now. Slowness is a bad thing now. People equate long term solutions with being slow, and demand otherwise, even if there isn't any other option.

Off-point, it's easier to make yourself shorter than make yourself taller. Malnutrition, some childhood diseases and other factors can stunt growth, but I've never really heard of ways to make yourself taller. Healthy diet and such only really helps you grow into the height you're supposed to be, unless there's something I'm missing.

Idun

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #335 on: October 17, 2008, 03:53:10 PM »


Scientists believe we are biologically primed to have greater loss aversion than a desire for gains. Why do we hold on to losing stocks, telling ourselves it's not a loss until you sell it? There are innumerable theories as to why we have evolved this way, but so strong is this factor that we also tend to expect greater rewards for delayed gratification. Would you rather have $50 now, or $60 next year (forget inflation for a moment)?


I'd put more faith into that biologically "primed" to have greater loss aversion conjecture if they could give many more examples that do not involve social conditioning.

metroid composite

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #336 on: October 18, 2008, 04:12:40 PM »
I would argue that all of these are infinitely easier to control/plan for than money

Oh, no doubt.  I wasn't saying that just because high-schoolers made ill-formed plans for themselves that they somehow would make good plans for the economy, or understand a long-term economic plan of the government.

Quote
Off-point, it's easier to make yourself shorter than make yourself taller. Malnutrition, some childhood diseases and other factors can stunt growth, but I've never really heard of ways to make yourself taller. Healthy diet and such only really helps you grow into the height you're supposed to be, unless there's something I'm missing.

Making sure to eat Dairy products--I know a fair few second/third generation Asians who are over six feet tall (while their parents/grandparents are the more stereotypical asian height).  Avoiding stuff that stunts your growth (Smoking, possibly Coffee).  Though sure, there's a genetic cap.  Dunno, I certainly knew people who had superstitions about the right and wrong things to do (whether or not this stuff actually worked).  I also remember the old Milk, it does a body good commercials, which were presumably understood by a mass audience since they were on TV for decades.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 04:14:56 PM by metroid composite »

Idun

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #337 on: October 18, 2008, 04:20:57 PM »
It isn't expecting the economy to be fixed straight away, it is expecting the government not to let it get to this point in the first place.

I've met many people who expect the economy to be fixed straight away. My original statement came from experience, since I work in a community-driven store. I don't believe those two go into the same category. Expectations of the gov't, versus expectations of economical fruition have their varying own factors.

Quote
With regards to the government believing in free market bullshit, well see the conversation I had just before with Met, the government regulates business, it is not a free market.  Stepping in and fixing that shit is what governments are for, otherwise they would run entirely outside of the economy and leave such things within the framework of the citizens.

Did you not understand the meaning of my free market post? Or is this even directed at me? The Fed sending signals that companies can lower lending rates is not free market whatsoever. And because our economy is strongly based off of demand and supply, lending rates INCREASED without the Fed. Thus people were fucked. Because the Fed stepped in. If the gov't never sent those signals, a big market downfall of subprime lending wouldn't occur since people wouldn't obtain those leases, with those rates.

I never believe that America has been a true, free market society. Due to percent regulations, due to OSHA, etc, etc. But it TOUTS a free market society veiled and when everything goes wrong, the government wants to step both feet into the system because people are pussies. Sometimes I really think people get what they deserved, but who knows what sort of factors went into their decisions etc (so I try to not think that).

Edit* Apologies if I apear bitchy in this in regards to you. But it was partically this "With regards to the government believing in free market bullshit," that made me aggravated, as if you were claiming I was spewing bullshit. If it wasn't directed at me, just ignore the bitchyness.
« Last Edit: October 18, 2008, 04:24:28 PM by Idunie »

Grefter

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #338 on: October 19, 2008, 12:40:49 AM »
I phrased it poorly, it was directed at you, but it was that the idea of the free market is bullshit that I was trying to communicate.  The economy is far to reliant on the large players to throw their weight around to keep it on track (In this case the government), which is not a free market, end of story.

While yeah some of the problem stems from the government sending the message to lower interest rates (Blame you can place solely on the government, however I would say that is the government trying to save people from being ludicrously fleeced just to have basic living requirements), they didn't say to lower it to the point that was economically unviable (Blame the companies), but the government also didn't step back in and say that it was enough of this shit it is no longer viable (back to the Government this time with full force and no real apology for this one).   Which brings me back to the main point though, the people in charge made a chain of bad choices for half a decade that all focussed on short term gains and shock horror, everyone is fucked over by it.
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Cotigo

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #339 on: October 19, 2008, 02:06:50 PM »
Hey, anyone want to know why the GOP were playing up ACORN so much?

To draw attention away from this!
http://www.wvgazette.com/News/200810180251

---

In more comforting news, Senator McCar...Bachman says this:
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=ESdA52S4Dbg&eurl=http://www.dailykos.com/tag/Michele%20Bachmann

Then this happens:
http://blog.iconflict.com/bachmann-raises-more-than-120000-for-her-opponent/

« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 02:11:22 PM by Zenthor »

Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #340 on: October 19, 2008, 02:37:18 PM »
... man, I wish I could say I was surprised by that first link, but, um. Not really.

Machines make an easy thing to accuse when you don't want to admit that something's wrong or just flat-out don't want to check and see if something is wrong. Humans make errors, yes, but.

Also: anti-American is definitely becoming the new "communism". Welcome to the Second Age of McCarthyism.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 02:40:18 PM by Taishyr »

Grefter

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #341 on: October 19, 2008, 02:41:54 PM »
Taishyr is an unamerican Terrorist who needs an expose done on him.
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Cotigo

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #342 on: October 19, 2008, 02:43:17 PM »
I'll get the waterboarding... um... water... board.

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #343 on: October 19, 2008, 02:57:18 PM »
I love the part where she points out how weird it is for someone to associate with people who don't share their own views. "OMG how can you talk to people who won't agree with everything you say?" Therefore, if Obama talks with someone, he must agree with their views. Clearly. It's not like there's any value in exposing yourself to a wide array of opinions or anything.

Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #344 on: October 19, 2008, 02:58:33 PM »
Okay I admit it I associate with Unamerican people.

Like Grefter. And Zenthor since he's in a foreign country so clearly he does not support America in any way.

Grefter

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #345 on: October 19, 2008, 03:23:01 PM »
I would make a joke about you being the one that has to worry about being abducted and taken to Gitmo, but then we are both in countries with citizens who have been or threatened with it as well.
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Don't worry, just jam it in anyway. - SirAlex
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Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #346 on: October 19, 2008, 03:26:14 PM »
Yeah, plus you guys are getting Chinanet so hey.


http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail/2008/10/19/colin_powell_endorses_obama.html

Well then.
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 03:29:37 PM by Taishyr »

Grefter

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #347 on: October 19, 2008, 04:04:44 PM »
Which deserves a nod from The Exile on the folllow up to the Christopher Buckley incident.

http://exiledonline.com/daily-inquisition-the-further-punching-of-christopher-buckley/#more-1450

Pretty much flagging such moves as opportunist.
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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #348 on: October 19, 2008, 04:27:41 PM »
Christopher Buckley is to liberals what ex-gays are to conservatives.  Sure it's nice to have them on your side, but that's a taint that doesn't go away.

Speaking of which, this is a week old, but...
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/10/08/david-brooks-sarah-palin_n_133001.html
« Last Edit: October 19, 2008, 04:32:30 PM by NotMiki »
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Taishyr

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Re: Grand political roundup
« Reply #349 on: October 19, 2008, 06:49:10 PM »