Suicide Squad Mafia, Game Over: Number the Dead

[Strago]

Strago!

Elfboy, on the other hand, plays things so incredibly safe and "reasonable" that there's no paper trail whatsoever. His behind was thoroughly covered by everything he did, Day 1. And yes, sure, it was Day 1, but at the very least this characterizes an attitude and playstyle that I find pretty troubling when I look back upon it.

Mrrf. I didn't vote Day 1, yes. I really don't see why this is such a crime. I feel I got my opinions out there. Yes, I didn't leave a trail on the shiny vote record, for reasons I already gave. I am sorry. But I don't see how this is a significant scumtell at all. After all, people here aren't completely braindead. They remember not voting just as well as voting. Apparently more, in some cases. If I was trying to slip under the radar, I -would- have voted for one of Tom or OK or Delta... who were all non-scum anyway! It would be easy! My not voting attracted more attention than voting for any of them would have done. If not voting was a mistake, it was not one that indicates my allignment, since it is a mistake for both town and scum, apparently.

It's perfectly simple to look back now and say that voting would have been just as scummy as not-voting, but A) you can't have necessarily known that back during Day 1, since people often react differently to these matters from game to game, and B) the issue is a greater one, that being the fact that your Day 1 behavior is indicative of the caution and sense of self-preservation with which you seem to have played for the whole game.

but I feel a jump to someone else this late in the day would be to grasp at straws

Remember my standpoint. My vote was on Meeple, for reasons I gave. Snow, meanwhile, had done his Snow-thing, and certainly had crept up my suspicion list (to the point were I tracked him the next night).

Day by this point was stalling a bit, and it looked like serious cases were not being made on anyone but those two. I had already made mine, and I had seen nothing to convince me I should make another. The Meeple case giving me some doubts did not mean I saw any better cases. Thus, jumping ship made no sense to me.

Sure, the day was stalling, largely because people were getting wrapped up in Meeple/Snow and not proposing new cases or paying any attention to those that were proposed. You played right into the stall; as scum, it wouldn't matter which of the two ended up lynched, and why bother to stick your neck out as a proponent of killing someone who was going to flip town?

People as active and aggressive as you deserve a good look. They can be very helpful as town, but as scum... well, I don't need to finish that thought.

It's pretty clear which side of the aggressiveness debate I am on. It's cool and all that you disagree, but I'd hope you don't think this makes me inherently scummy.

Inasmuch as it's a pretty pat justification for behavior that often is scummy, I sure do.

That combined with his early Day 3 m.o. seeming to be to defend himself constantly against Meeple's parting shots just makes Elfboy seem more defensive and worried about public perception than ever.

Worried about my perception? What?

Bard had just made a case on me. So I defended myself! It's the right thing to do as town - same thing I'm doing now. I explained why I was uppity at the Meeple thing already - people were taking the words of a Dead Third Party as basis for attacking me, which is GRAAAH.

The problem isn't defending yourself. It's defending yourself to a greater extent than you are actually hunting scum, especially because I don't think you ever had more than one (possibly two?) votes on you at any given time. A townie in that position, I feel, should still be rooting out the scum instead of going into panic mode.

This post (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg25522#msg25522) is another rundown of everyone currently in the game, and to no great surprise Elfboy doesn't feel like voting for the person he apparently suspects the most of being scum.

You mean Snow? Snow was -1 to hammer.

Ah. On this one you've got me. Constructing a post that large and going through the entire thread to do it, I hadn't connected that action of yours with the current votecount. That's my bad.

"Others" being Corwin, and I remain baffled about that people are complaining. Shale and Bard asked me not to hammer. You yourself, said you would be willing to hammer Snow. Why'd you do that "song and dance"?

I feel like I made it pretty clear that I didn't think Snow was all the scummy looking, and that my willingness to drop a hammer was mostly to get this infernal game moving. You, on the other hand -- and as I review, Shale was engaged in this too, a bit -- were engaged in some sort of game of Hammer Hot-Potato despite the fact that you did suspect Snow. Given how much you'd subscribed previously to the belief that lynch-trains like that were foregone conclusions, it just seems to me like you were trying to hedge your bets in a way that, admittedly, I don't quite grasp the logic of*. I think it's the fact that I don't quite get it that makes me suspicious, at the end of the day.

*A preposition is a perfectly good thing to end a sentence with.

[Strago]

Hmm. I've decided to look over QR's history in the game. I've been feeling both unable to read her and that she pings on my scum radar at the same time, and I can't quite figure out what that means, so a closer inspection at this point seems prudent. That said, I've had a difficult time putting it together, which may ultimately be because I've come down on the side of thinking that she's town.

You do realize Tom that after the game where you claimed to be a doc day 1 but lied through your teeth that the chances of my believing a day 1 claim out of you are non-existant, right?  Just wanted to be sure you realized that.  Personally, that makes me more likely to want you dead than not.  And I agree with Carth that it screams third party to me. And with the craziness that seems to be lurking with people's comments and half-said abilities, I think a third party role with some ability where the longer they live the better they are makes sense in this game set up.

Putting my money where my mouth is: ##Vote EvilTom

I can't say that I'm particularly comfortable with using this sort of past game behavior -- a game that was... kind of a long time ago, to boot -- to determine lynch choices. Especially since I recall QR being pretty dang upset at Tom back then, this at least semi-emotional reaction and vote strike me as wonky.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24451#msg24451: This post actually strikes me as fairly on the level; trying to explain the lay of the land to Delta is a good thing. The way Excal responded so snippily to Delta, as an instance in opposition to what QR did here, was one of the things that made me suspect him.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24468#msg24468: This I don't like as much. While I understand Day 1 frustrations, the fact that QR just seems resigned to lynching town seems suspect. Play to win, yo. And hey, it's not like lynching scum never happens on Day 1. In Phoenix Wright mafia, we nabbed the Godfather! Sure, part of it is dumb luck. But a shot in the dark is better than lynching someone who has claimed town and whose claim you don't necessarily even disbelieve, you're just annoyed by it. Especially since she uses the fact that his power will apparently confirm his townness after death as a reason to say that even if it is a mislynch, we lose nothing from it. But then ends her post wondering if that is at all true. Without, of course, changing her vote or making any movement to reconsider it, apparently. Mrfff.

This (http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24503#msg24503) is more or less a null read to me. Town or scum easily could've been wanting the day to end, etc.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24667#msg24667: Basic rundown of the NKs and flips Night 1. Yeah, not a lot there that I can read.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24810#msg24810: Mostly just game theory stuff here. Again, not a lot to sink one's teeth into.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24862#msg24862: Here she finally starts talking about some new people, but says a bit on each without actually making much of a case against anyone. The one she seems to suspect most is Bardiche, which strikes me as odd considering her earlier conviction that his roleclaim was a good honest thing. Moreso because she can't even point to any scummy behavior in him; just that his role feels third-party or possibly scummy.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24883#msg24883: When pushed to explain her stance on Meeple a bit more (by me, coincidentally), she responds quite reasonably. After a while the whole Meeple discussion sort of started to whiz over my head somehow or another, though, so I don't really know anymore if I find his defense of Shale to have been that much of an actually scummy tell. I mean, obviously in retrospect it wasn't, since Meeple flipped third party. But whether or not that ever struck me as a legitimate reason to gun for him... hmm. I'm not sure anymore.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg25034#msg25034: Now here... hmm. QR breaks the deadlock in votes between Snow and Meeple, tilting it towards the latter. I don't think I find her actual arguments for the vote all that compelling...

His defense of Shale, the inherant difficulty in reading concise arguments in his walls of text tus making it all look like rambling and the line quoted above all add up for me to feel that of all the cases, this one rings closest to me for a possible scum.

Especially significant part bolded. This is... in QR's own words, more of an admission of her own refusal to parse Meeple's actual (and admittedly muddled) content than a statement that he doesn't have any worth considering. Which doesn't look all that great to me. That being said, actually having some sort of argument and breaking that deadlock in favor of someone you honestly thought looked scummier seems much more like a town action than a scum one, to me. Scum could've easily sat back and let either one get taken out, instead of sticking their neck out to choose and getting potentially fingered with the mis-lynch. See my thoughts about Elfboy. She does say that she's still considering Snow a contender for the lynch... but votes tend to speak louder than words. Hrmm.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg25082#msg25082: Comports herself well here, I think. Addresses quite a few different issues, she's already established her vote against Meeple so making new cases against someone else isn't exactly necessary. My only issue with this post is that it introduces her weird anti-LAL policy, the reasons behind which I understand but don't particularly agree with. Her first Day 3 post is mostly an extension of her views on lurking, no need to go over that again since I've made my opinion known.

I... hrmmf. Honestly I'm running out of steam, here, and it doesn't help that QR tends to write large posts. I've just finished re-reading her contributions and I really don't have much of a case to make against her. Even her early vote for Snow came with the caveat that lynching him quickly wasn't particularly in the town's best interest, which was correct.

I will say that I find it somewhat ironic that it's Shale's "lurkerishness" that she cites as a reason she can't read him and therefore suspects him, since she apparently found lurking so harmless before. Not that I don't understand the difference in the situations, here, but yeah. Bit o' irony. Also I disagree with her assessment of Elfboy being so clearly town, which...

... hmm. I guess if I had to finger a scum trio right now, I might go out on a limb and say Elfboy/QR/Shale. Having noticed that QR now glosses over Elfboy so completely... that connects the three of them quite a bit, in my mind. Something about how she gave Shale a pass and yet now suspects him -- but in a way that she's not pushing strongly -- for the same reason speaks of scum camaraderie to me. But maybe I'm just tired and burnt out. I'm not sure. All things considered I'm still most comfortable with voting for Elfboy, and QR and Shale just happen to be sort of circumstantially (and tenuously, but sometimes that's all you have to go on) linked to him.

[Dark Holy Elf]

the issue is a greater one, that being the fact that your Day 1 behavior is indicative of the caution and sense of self-preservation with which you seem to have played for the whole game.

I'm cautious by nature. Go read FFT if you don't believe me.

And I disagree with you that non-voting doesn't attract attention. It pretty much always does that I can recall. LAL, etc. People have bitched about it more this game than usual, yes, but there's still no way I'd try to slip under radar by not voting, with such easy trains as OK and Tom to attach myself facelessly to. Go back and read Day 1. What I did does not make sense for scum. (Which doesn't clear me, I understand, but you're acting as if it is a mistake for town and desirable for scum... which is wrong!)

Sure, the day was stalling, largely because people were getting wrapped up in Meeple/Snow and not proposing new cases or paying any attention to those that were proposed. You played right into the stall; as scum, it wouldn't matter which of the two ended up lynched, and why bother to stick your neck out as a proponent of killing someone who was going to flip town?

When you put it that way, yes, scum might have done just what I did. However I defended what I did from a town perspective; do you have a problem with that defence?

Inasmuch as it's a pretty pat justification for behavior that often is scummy, I sure do.

Aggressiveness makes a fine scum cover, too!

Also, I must say, I find it curious that you've come out hard with a "aggressive is the way to be!" stance today, when I don't recall hearing much from it you before. The time for such debates was really earlier in the game, so now it kinda feels like you're just trying to build a case on me based on playstyle. Despite it not being something you... really believe strongly in.

A townie in that position, I feel, should still be rooting out the scum instead of going into panic mode.

I don't really feel like I was in panic mode at all! And I don't see what you wanted me to do. Defend myself LESS? You'd be all over me for that. I feel like I can't win, talking to you. Like you've already decided I'm scum, and make circular arguments based on my being scum meaning all my decisions are based on what scum would do, therefore I am scum!

I've done my share of going over targets for scumhunting. I have plenty of posts doing so.

Given how much you'd subscribed previously to the belief that lynch-trains like that were foregone conclusions, it just seems to me like you were trying to hedge your bets in a way that, admittedly, I don't quite grasp the logic of*.

Well, trying to explain my thought process here...

I had just come to the conclusion that yes, Snow was indeed scummy enough to lynch that day. However, it was clear people still wanted the day to continue. Shale. Bard. You've heard the names. I considered it a courtesy to stay the hammer until we were ready. And not to be "obsessed with my image", but if I'd suddenly jumped on Snow and hammered him without warning, I think people would be a bit upset with me.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Mrrf. I just realised something. You're going after me for being obsessed over my image. Which... I don't think I was. But who definitely was? Bard, in his whole claiming on day 2. Now, I don't consider this quite such a high scumtell as you, since I think it's pretty natural for town to not want to appear scummy (appear scummy -> mislynch). However, I find it curious you haven't uttered a peep about this (that I recall, please correct me if I am wrong since this is a quick post and I am not combing all yours to check), and instead consider him to be high on your townie list. It feels like you are a townie relying on gut checks rather than solid arguments at this point, which is suicide. (That or, of course, you are scum, a scum who has chosen his target(s) for LYLO.)

[Laggy]

Alright, so.

It really feels like discussion's stalled and everything's just going to turn into more walls of text that don't really, I feel, get anywhere productive at this point. Safe to say that everyone has their prime suspects in mind, and the lines have been drawn, so I think it's time to stop dragging this day (and for that matter, this game) out and get down to it already. I'm going to summarize what I think people have said so far for the sake of being concise.

Rat and NEB seem to be the two cases most people have a view on. In particular, on Rat's case is myself, Shale, NEB, and possibly QR (and all of us sans Shale are wary of Corwin as well; not sure how I or others feel about a Corwin push). On NEB's case is Corwin and Strago (and possibly Bardiche? See below, I'm not sure.) Rat's primary suspect lies in Shale, I believe, but to be to the point, since he can't vote that's mostly going to be irrelevant.

I am somewhat unsure where Bardiche stands since he's not said exactly positive things about Rat but voiced sentiment against lynching him due to his votelessness, and he apparently has suspicions but doesn't buy the case on Corwin. His NEB view at this is nebulous to me as well. Pointedly, in any scenario where Bardiche is town, he has to vote with the rest of town to get a lynch done.

I think QR wanted to get one last overview done as well, and possibly NEB (on myself and QR). I also obviously am not speaking for everyone and simply summarizing what I've seen from posted content/suspicions. Obviously if I am incorrect point it out.

But regardless, unless some dramatic new discussion changes, I am announcing the intent to drop a vote in the next 12 hours if no one else has by then (sometime next morning for me). Time to move on, this game's gone long enough.

[Strago]

the issue is a greater one, that being the fact that your Day 1 behavior is indicative of the caution and sense of self-preservation with which you seem to have played for the whole game.

I'm cautious by nature. Go read FFT if you don't believe me.

I really try not to compare playstyles from game to game in that way. It's going to be a factor to some extent, sure, but I try not to let it be a massive influence. Especially in your case, since FFT's the only other game in which I've seen you play, as far as I can recall. It just isn't a productive kind of comparison to sit around making, in my mind.

Given how much you'd subscribed previously to the belief that lynch-trains like that were foregone conclusions, it just seems to me like you were trying to hedge your bets in a way that, admittedly, I don't quite grasp the logic of*.

Well, trying to explain my thought process here...

I had just come to the conclusion that yes, Snow was indeed scummy enough to lynch that day. However, it was clear people still wanted the day to continue. Shale. Bard. You've heard the names. I considered it a courtesy to stay the hammer until we were ready. And not to be "obsessed with my image", but if I'd suddenly jumped on Snow and hammered him without warning, I think people would be a bit upset with me.

They might have, but it's also possible that nobody would have batted an eye. Bard's early hammer on Tom Day 1 was viewed as suspicious by some players for about... half a page of the topic, if that? Again, it's the type of action that when viewed on its own is potentially a null read but when set up against the rest of your behavior just looks bad to me.

Mrrf. I just realised something. You're going after me for being obsessed over my image. Which... I don't think I was. But who definitely was? Bard, in his whole claiming on day 2. Now, I don't consider this quite such a high scumtell as you, since I think it's pretty natural for town to not want to appear scummy (appear scummy -> mislynch). However, I find it curious you haven't uttered a peep about this (that I recall, please correct me if I am wrong since this is a quick post and I am not combing all yours to check), and instead consider him to be high on your townie list. It feels like you are a townie relying on gut checks rather than solid arguments at this point, which is suicide. (That or, of course, you are scum, a scum who has chosen his target(s) for LYLO.)

I see a pretty strong difference in that Bard was, in a way, putting himself on the line by claiming his role. I remember quite well how much chaos erupted when ID made his similar claim in the FFT game, for instance. Bard was worried, but at the same time handled both the claim and the execution of the role in ways that struck me as being pro-town.

The rest of your response can be pretty fairly, I think, summed up by your following statement:

I don't really feel like I was in panic mode at all! And I don't see what you wanted me to do. Defend myself LESS? You'd be all over me for that. I feel like I can't win, talking to you. Like you've already decided I'm scum, and make circular arguments based on my being scum meaning all my decisions are based on what scum would do, therefore I am scum!

Alright, I guess that you're correct in that... yeah, most things in this game can be potentially distilled down to a massive WIFOM issue. But when I start with a strong gut check against someone and then find so many points against them, I have a hard time going "oh, sure, my interpretation must be absolutely the opposite of what's actually happening." And as far as how much you should have defended yourself, I think that's a pretty specious claim you're making about what I "would have" done. Have I been nailing people for... not defending themselves?

Oof. There's been a lot of silence since this afternoon. Feel like weighing in, other people? Am I way off the beam with the Elf, here, or do others see it as well?

Ninja'd by Laggy. I pretty much agree with him. Woo.

[Dark Holy Elf]

For the record, FFT is indeed my only previous game. And while you're free to ignore previous games, I just boggle at lynching someone for playing style. In LYLO. When that person's record in mafia includes THE SAME PLAYING MENTALITY in a game he was town in. Could I keep the same mentality in this game were I scum? Probably! I dunno how I'd play as scum. But it is logically fallacious that I am scum due to this playing style, since there's a big ol' counterexample.

Have I been nailing people for... not defending themselves?

You're suggesting not defending yourself is okay? Seriously? Because letting it be okay to not defend yourself is like handing scum a free pass. So I dunno if you have been nailing people for that, but you should be!

The rest is in nebulous WIFOM land as you say. But... You really should have a strong case to leverage against someone, not gut. Back 'em into a corner. Have some role backup. Even if you weren't attacking me and therefore I didn't know with confidence that you'd misfired, I'd never trust anyone's gut instinct to help us finger THREE scum from this point on. We've seen what gut instinct does to this point. All of your arguments against me are centred around vague suspicions and disagreements with my playing style. That doesn't cut it, and it's a good way to lose the game. Definitely in this case since I know my allignment, but I wouldn't support lynching anyone else by it, either.

[QuietRain]

Alright, back home and will get a chance to make my last post of the night.

Connections per request.  Who do I see as possible scum teams, not just people that I find might be scummy personally was, I believe, the request for all of us.  Since I find Cor the strongest for me, I looked into who I thought he might be in cahoots with.  What I found has only given more fuel to the fire through which I'm viewing Carth.  Looking back over it, Carth is the only person I noticed Cor never picking a point and his attitude has been quite cordial for the most part.  Considering he's been a bit thorny with the rest of us, I find the ease of which he glosses over Carth and my own concerns about Cor specifically, make me want to analyze their interactions.

Day 1: Cor's posts are firmly in the area of pushing for content (nothing wrong with that) and pushing for the Tom lynch (went there myself).  But it did stand out that his first post is to give a small case for Tom, but not too terribly worded.  In his next post, though, he starts a heavy push for Tom and says that he disagrees with Tom's case on Carth.  Carth for his part is all over Tom.

Day 2: Cor says jack and dice to Carth except a very nice and cordial reminder to post more since as he has no votes, discussion is all he has.

Day 3: Here things get odd.  I've posted them below.  Considering what I found in Day 4, this, looking back, did seem worthy of note.  Up until the end of Day 3, everything Cor's posted about Carth has been mildly poking him to post more or echoing his conjectures.

And, uh, I don't actually have anything to add to what's been said, really, without combing his posts from the beginning of day 1. And that would give me... day 1 posts. I hope I'll form a better opinion as Excal participates more. Rat's concerns over convenient cases could easily be dispelled or strengthened as we look at what Excal does next day (if he is town and he isn't NK'd, or the rest of us don't decide to lynch-switch to him today; I don't think we should since JR must be lynched).

The Rat section is pretty small, I'm afraid. While I can feel something off about him (specifically, I don't believe Rat was being entirely truthful with us), I don't actually see any slips on his part, and his participation, while on the scarcer side than I'm used to from him, is sufficient content-wise. He also doesn't merely go for the conventional targets. Even though he made the third lurker vote in several minutes for Shale, I can't blame him because Shale is pretty damn suspicious even without lurking. If JR flips as I expect him to, there would be more here.

Day 4:  Here's the kicker and what made me really cement the above into more than 'maybe it's coincidence'.  Cor says that he was one of the first to put forth the idea that Carth being blocked had something to do with there being no NK.  When I went back and looked, he said no such thing.  In fact, the only conclusion he drew that he bothered to say was that Carth's gaining a vote might have had something to do with scripted events.  This looks more than a bit like trying to distance himself now that the tide is turning against Carth after he'd been pretty soundly considered town before.  I can certainly see this course of action if they're scum buddies.

Now, Laggy seems willing to back up his conviction on Carth with a vote.  I find myself with no certainties, but I would support the lynch based on what I saw going back through stuff.  I still find Cor suspicious, but Carth does to me now, too.  

[Laggy]

Re: QR

Wow. I didn't even catch that. And ironically enough it was Tai who brought up, so very long ago on Day 2, that Corwin's reaction there was drawing a line between him and Rat (how he obsessively made note of Snow's roleclaim and claimed night action)

I sat down and read the case against NEB from Strago, and I am... just... not... seeing it. NEB's defended himself more than adequately in my eyes and nearly every point Strago brought feels incredibly superficial and/or generically laced in "NEB is too careful and non-aggro and doesn't vote!" I myself got on NEB's case for this earlier in the game, but I don't feel it's nearly as excessive to the degree Strago's tried to portray here. And yet while my own suspicions of Strago are based on similar uneasy feelings and process of elimination (at this point, I can firmly say I trust NEB given who I think is scum, and QR and Shale ring less worrisome to me) his overall attack on the elf at this point missing the mark doesn't help him in that regards.

Yeah, at this point, I'm just about ready to lay down a vote on Rat. Association with Corwin still highly suspected. Only reason I'm holding off now is Bardiche, who needs to weigh in now, since as the math has laid out before, this may possibly not get anywhere without him.

[Carthrat]

The case on me stems from night actions, which means people have- and every single point raised could fall under this- gone back, looked at my play, quoted it, and then said 'this is bad.'

I see QR attacking me for day one shit, when I was in fact contributing from my second post (where I attacked Laggy and generally tried to stir shit up and make the day, y'know, happen.) Also, for someone who has gone in the past 'well, Rat's role sucks so it's expected that he's a bit acerbic', this is a lame, self-justifying turnaround.

I think it's ridiculous that both her and Laggy are pointing to a connection between me and Cor based on what essentially remain incredibly minor points, and not to blow my own trumpet or encourage metagaming (although everyone else seems to be doing it), but I'm quite capable of faking a fight in a way more believable way than what they're suggesting. In any case, is it so unreasonable that two people would think alike? Both QR and Laggy are essentially saying that since we never had a serious fight, we must be a team? Am I reading this right? I think I am.

Is this me trying to save my own skin? Yes! It damn well is, you know why etc. As things stand I have wound up suspicious of half the game due to kneejerk OMGUS and the focus on things that are ultimately aside from actual post content. That I may be lynched because I didn't hate on someone who I completely agreed with is retarded.

I've basically dropped the case on Shale at this point and would vote QR on the spot right now, because of all the people attacking me, she's the one who jumped on the latest and seems to have contributed the flimsiest evidence (it's practically a less-thorough rehash of what Laggy said), and I can't see this as anything but an attempt to rush the game to a conclusion. Her posting all game has generally been spotty, too, with a large amount of informative posts compared to actual case-making posts. But I find her LYLO play to be the most damning thing about her.

[Bardiche]

I will not support a Carthrat lynch. I will not vote on Carthrat. My reasoning is as follows:

1) I don't have enough evidence on him and the case against him doesn't feel entirely strong.
2) We're in LYLO. Lynching Carthrat helps us nowhere because the scum wouldn't be down one vote, just one hitman. Well, whooptiefreakin'doo, forgive me if I find that a negligable victory.

At this point, I feel more strongly for NEB (case here), for whom my suspicion only grows with his current defense. In fact, Laggy's getting there as well.

We're in LYLO, we need to thoroughly think this through! I abstained from presenting anything else on the matter until Strago and DHE were done dancin'. There's still Strago's case on QR that has had no defense from QR yet. Are you suggesting we go ahead with a lynch when people still have to defend themselves against accusations, Laggy? You'd better have a pretty damn good excuse here.

It doesn't help I've been suspicious of QR and she's the one immediately supporting Laggy in this absurd train of thought that, "Let's lynch Carthrat because we don't want to wait any longer z___z", without defending herself from Strago's accusations. No, sir, I am far more comfortable with a Laggy Lynch or a QuietRain Lynch than I am with a Carthrat Lynch, especially given that I want to take away one scumvote power.

Yes, Corwin's... Apparent affection for Carthrat may be considered weird. I'll go back through Carth/Cor interaction after this post. What doesn't connect is that QuietRain wants to go for the easier Carthrat lynch (since Laggy voiced support for that one) but does so because apparently she has no certainties about Carthrat. But Laggy is willing to vote on Rat, which is more important than pushing a case for Corwin. Excusable on earlier days, definitely not excusable in LYLO.

While Quiet says he feels more strongly about a Corwin lynch...

Cor: Looking back, I think it may be impossible for me to separate my distaste for the playstyle and my impression of him.  The only thing I really have is his too aggressive play and his push on Snow, who frankly was very suspicious.

Apparently she lacks any argument to justify it. Doesn't help I am thinking of Corwin more as Town-With-Absurd-Aggressive-Playstyle. Also:

Carth: Suck role is confirmed by Tai.  He’s being acerbic, but that’s Carth, frankly.  Nothing new no matter what he’s playing and given the circumstances of this game (no vote and all), I’d be a bit of a  curmudgeon as well.  As far as content, he’s been putting it out there.  I’m not seeing him hanging back or anything.  He’s been firm with suspicions and made valid point.  I can’t see anything scummy in it as he’s been picking out people that have been acting in ways that really do raise some eyebrows.  Thinking townie.

Last view of Carthrat was pretty positive, then she swings to sudden "Carthrat is my choice for LYLO lynch". Seriously, Quiet, like Laggy, you best have a pretty damn good explanation for this behaviour.

There's this gem, which I can only read as a way of trying to get Strago modkilled. Modkilling people is at the mods behest, if you are a town player I see no reason why you are trying to get someone you can't say is scum get modkilled. Besides, I somehow can't see a townie looking for clues on who's scum look at the post date of people and then proceed to subtly push for a modkill by highlighting their inactivity and asking if it's "getting close to modkill".

QuietRain's play is so passive, she hardly has any case on anyone. Yes, there's "I think Meeple is scummy" when everyone trained Meeple, there's "I agree Snow is scummiest" when everyone's going on Snow, and there's "Let's end this day, I'll vote for whoever gets the most votes".

------>

Going to review Laggy's posts, just wanted to throw this out there. I rather spend an extra day of arguing and debating so that we know everyone's suspicions than to end the day right here and now with a very shoddy lynch target.

[Bardiche]

Laggy's entire day has consisted about game mechanics, mathematics, suspicions on Corwin, who he links to Carthrat, and for the rest... No cases. Pretty tunnel visioned into a Corwin/Rat/MTP lynch, even though we... We really don't have a case on Carth, he rather lynches Carthrat. Uh, okay. Sure. I think.

BP and actual Vanilla just seem so starkly in contrast with everyone else; and in particular I have offer a large "harumph" to the way you used it to try to justify your behavior throughout the game, Cor.

Need I remind you of SSBB Mafia, where I was convinced Excal was scum because "vanilla townie is impossible!"? Yeah, I rather not fall in the same trap again and assume that just because someone got spooned with a vanilla role that they are scum.

This also presumes Andrew, in fact, did target Ashdla during that night - and as I read back through Day 2 and his posts in particular,

Care finishing this sentence?

Given that town's train of thoughts (and my own)

The syntactical stuff Strago loves so much. Quoting it.

Now this post here, I'm not sure what to make of. His interaction towards Corwin makes me wary. Basically, Laggy's expressing that if Jo'ou flips town, Corwin will get hard looks from him. (doesn't follow this up much, instead, goes for Rat and maths)
WIFOM here, but if he wasn't too sure in Snow's being scum, why didn't he build any cases on other people besides me?

I don't really feel like finecombing the rest of his posts, but maybe others will. IDK. I'll do it later on regardless, supposing the day hasn't ended then yet.

[Dark Holy Elf]

1) I don't have enough evidence on him and the case against him doesn't feel entirely strong.

Could you explain why you don't feel it's strong? The roleblock to unexplained lack of NK really feels like a smoking gun to me, singlehandedly raising him above everyone else. I laid a case on him, a case to which he has not even responded, just tried to rely on "but you guys thought I was a townie earlier!" Yeah, everyone thought El Cid was a townie early in Smash mafia, too. When the evidence is there, you don't ignore it.

2) We're in LYLO. Lynching Carthrat helps us nowhere because the scum wouldn't be down one vote, just one hitman. Well, whooptiefreakin'doo, forgive me if I find that a negligable victory.

Do the math. I'll assume you're town so I'm not wasting my breath.

We lynch Rat. Scum is down to two. They NK someone, let's say you. Town is down to 4, scum to two. Game goes on.

Alternatively, we lynch non-Rat scum. Scum has one less vote the next day, which is cool and all, but it's no better a situation. Still LYLO. Still "lynch town and lose". (If we lynch wrong here, then we lose two town, and are it's now two scum, two town, victory to scum because it takes three to lynch and you're dead by this point.)

Lynching Rat is exactly the same as lynching any other scum. The order is irrelevant. We must lynch three scum in three days, we do not somehow get a reprieve by letting Rat live longer.

I'd like to see QR defend herself too, yeah. But frankly I am extremely unlikely to vote for her today, since my current thoughts have her not part of a scumteam.

At this point, I feel more strongly for NEB (case here), for whom my suspicion only grows with his current defense.

I thought I addressed the case to your satisfaction earlier? How is your suspicion growing? I really feel I have responded to Strago adequately, so if you disagree, can you explain how?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Clarifying a sentence in my middle paragraph, the one in parentheses:

"(If we lynch wrong here, then we lose two town, and it's now two scum, two town, victory to scum because it takes three to lynch and you're dead by this point.)"

[Bardiche]

1) I don't have enough evidence on him and the case against him doesn't feel entirely strong.

Could you explain why you don't feel it's strong? The roleblock to unexplained lack of NK really feels like a smoking gun to me, singlehandedly raising him above everyone else. I laid a case on him, a case to which he has not even responded, just tried to rely on "but you guys thought I was a townie earlier!" Yeah, everyone thought El Cid was a townie early in Smash mafia, too. When the evidence is there, you don't ignore it.

Oh, yes, because it is impossible that scum, after seeing Jo'ou's revelation, didn't think, "Well whaddya know! Let's abstain today, because there's a bigger chance Jo'ou will hit town than scum, so that whoever gets roleblocked is screwed!"

I'm holding possibilities open in mind. Last I recall scum weren't forced to make a kill every night.

I thought I addressed the case to your satisfaction earlier? How is your suspicion growing? I really feel I have responded to Strago adequately, so if you disagree, can you explain how?

I keep looking back at it, your responses, then back at it again... Something about you feels incredibly off. At this point, everyone is suspect, so shouldn't you, y'know... Not be afraid of suspicions until they solidify into a "I feel strongly for DHE lynch"? I'll admit I have nothing to solidify it (yet), but I am giving you extra hard looks, yes.

[Carthrat]

Bah, I'll respond to it, then.

-Day 1... well, I remember finding it odd at the time just how upset he seemed by his role. How he'd snap into anger about it, and out, at the drop of a pin. At first, I thought it was a joke, that he was hamming it up for fun. Now, I think it was an act. Maybe he knew that he'd be angry as town, so pretended to be, and that's why it doesn't look natural?

Early day one was a trial for me. I'd been assigned the world's stupidest role and was none too happy about it. I was thinking about how best to play it, and was pondering trying to overdo how lame my role was. I figured people would actually think I had some compensating role to start, and was hoping others would whip scum into some paranoia of their own. Didn't really have much hope it'd fly, and I pretty much reverted to posting how I normally do as the game went on.

I had considered fakeclaiming something like doc later in the game to drag a kill over to me (possibly made easier with Bardiche running around), but I can't do that with Tai around. Yes, I would've lied as town, sue me. (Bomb was my next choice, but of course the only time a case against me would come up is LYLO.)

-Defends Strago as not-lurking Day 2, and attacks Shale instead. Hmm. Defends him from EVILTOM, at that. Why go to the trouble of defending someone who is pretty lurkerish from a confirmed town?

Because Shale looked worse, and they were both lurky at the time. Also because I had basically zero confidence in Dread Thomas' scumhunting powers. There, I said it straight.

-Feels like he's fanning the flames on Corwin/Tai a bit
Quote
Being an aggro whore is the superior playstyle, which should neatly sum up my opinion on most of Tai's posts.

I was mad at Tai at the time, sorry. I get really testy when people go 'being aggressive is bad', as he was doing, not to mention the logic that went into the people who were against Jo'ou's lynch.

-As initially active he has been, he has faded. Not the direction you want to go in. Day 3 posts, aside from his "yay I can vote!" opener and a closer about making sure we know he is vanilla, total up at three. In all three, discussion of aggression, Corwin, and Tai figure in. He does have... some other stuff, including a case on Bard that feels token-ish, a lookover of Excal which paints him as "You're next!", while going after Snow (like most everyone else).

I actually have no excuse for lack of quantity, fire away if you must, I feel there have been worse offenders with regards to content.

Excal was looking very scummy to me then and I felt I had to put something out there, as Strago had asked earlier. I'd not considered Excal very much until that point in the game.

<->

I'll admit you've put more into this than the others, and I'm not going to disagree with my late day 3 conduct being spotty. The rest I think is essentially a nontell, and you should agree if you study my playing style in general as well as factor in the genuine irritation that comes with this role.

<->

Bardiche: Scum wouldn't do that, I think. Jo'ou's block has a chance of failure, meaning they could no-kill and he'd be all 'well I didn't block anyone' and they'd kick themselves for that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bard:

By all means, I welcome the hard looks. Just back them up with something more than vague gut instinct please, and listen to my responses.

"Well whaddya know! Let's abstain today, because there's a bigger chance Jo'ou will hit town than scum, so that whoever gets roleblocked is screwed!"

Scum, pass on a NK and wait for a 50% roleblocker to actually hit someone? Someone town? Someone town who will report being roleblocked? (else it's pointless; note that in some setups, vanillas don't even know a roleblocker hit them) That's... out there. Yes, it's not impossible. But it's ridiculously unlikely.

(Ninja'd by Rat on this.)


Rat:

Early day one was a trial for me. I'd been assigned the world's stupidest role and was none too happy about it. I was thinking about how best to play it, and was pondering trying to overdo how lame my role was. I figured people would actually think I had some compensating role to start, and was hoping others would whip scum into some paranoia of their own.

*nods* I suppose that's possible. I will say that I do not approve of misleading others, generally. Just because while it can throw the scum off balance, it can also invite needless suspicion on yourself later, e.g. Excal in Smash. Misleading is okay if you are Zombie Captain K, with nobody to call you up to the lynching block for it later. Aside from that? Don't do it, please. So I can accept this defence... but don't really want to give you a pass for it.

Because Shale looked worse, and they were both lurky at the time. Also because I had basically zero confidence in Dread Thomas' scumhunting powers. There, I said it straight.

I agree with you about Tom, with all due respect to him. However, it's still odd.

-Defending Strago in general. He was pretty darned lurkerish, and he admits as much himself. Various others, with more "scumhunting powers" than Tom as you put it, called Strago out too. I disagree that Shale was worse, I think (would need to look at the exact time of post again to be sure) but it's moot. Strago was not worth defending, the dude needed to post more.
-Defending anyone from Tom. Generally, people should defend themselves; lurkers especially. It's cool to shoot down other players over their attacks, since you can expose scum through poor arguments. But Tom wasn't worth shooting down either.

The combination is strange, and the most logical explanation I can think of is that you had a vested interest in defending Strago. As you could not possibly know Strago's alignment as town thanks to your own roleclaim, this is strange indeed.

I was mad at Tai at the time, sorry. I get really testy when people go 'being aggressive is bad', as he was doing, not to mention the logic that went into the people who were against Jo'ou's lynch.

Again, I can accept anger as a possible explanation, but I can not give you a pass for it. This and misleading townies I do not consider valid playstyles, I consider errors in judgement.

[Carthrat]

DHE: Time to quote myself whee

On DT's post in general- I don't really agree that Strago has been terribly lurky, and he's already given a decent excuse. Shale is something else, as I just went through. I feel that Day 1 and Day 2 are, in fact, different things (only ONE of these days had three people behaving like morons in it), and that you can't very well say 'what QR is doing is usually good, except this time, when it's bad.''

This rates as a defense? I was basically hyping a Shale lynch over a Strago lynch. I don't think I really came strongly over to his side here, and am naturally confused as to why you think so. :|

[Bardiche]

"Well whaddya know! Let's abstain today, because there's a bigger chance Jo'ou will hit town than scum, so that whoever gets roleblocked is screwed!"

Scum, pass on a NK and wait for a 50% roleblocker to actually hit someone? Someone town? Someone town who will report being roleblocked? (else it's pointless; note that in some setups, vanillas don't even know a roleblocker hit them) That's... out there. Yes, it's not impossible. But it's ridiculously unlikely.

No, but Jo'ou WILL mention who he's roleblocked if he did roleblock, and that'd set the stage for incrimination. (because scum know Jo'ou isn't lying and know he's town!)

Since the philosophy behind such a move is endless WIFOM, let's not get into that. Carthrat arguing against his own case is uh... Questionable, since he's uh, dispelling one of the restraints I have against lynching him.

I'm still more comfortable with a QR lynch based on the findings above.

Elfboy, I would be pushing for your lynch if I had anything substantial to back it up with.

For now I want to hear QR, Shale and Corwin.

[Laggy]

Uh, seriously, Bard? I don't have a lot to say asides from "ahaha scum passing up an NK kill" and "oh yeah I have no case at all, all those posts I made back there were for fun". If you don't think my cases were substantial enough, that's fine. If you think I am somehow trying to curtail discussion and quickly skip to a mislynch, you know what, I got nothing to say to that. I'm tired of things being dragged ridiculously out, pretty much everyone now has a rock-hard opinion on who's where; if you feel that damn strongly about things lay down the vote and move things out already. If you think this is scummy behavior, well too bad; I don't (oh yeah, Rat actually agrees with me on this sentiment during Day 4, and he's my main lynch candidate!)

I find the evidence against Rat far more damning/something I'd be willing to stake on than generic sentiments of "QR has been playing too passively, she must be scum" (or insert NEB here too for that matter). I find Corwin's association with Rat to be very suspicious in this regard, more so than any other two players I can see without totally stretching things out into the air. I don't know how else to better explain this and I feel more giant WoTs or WoQs is an absurd waste of time at this point. I'd be fine with either lynch, but Rat's part in the role madness of Night 2 makes me that more certain of him, votelessness or not. That's pretty much how it goes.

If you're really going to drag this out another 24 hours I'm going to say right now that I won't have a whole lotta to say during it.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Speculation follows!


All right, I've been thinking. Specifically, about who the scum team is. And I want to get this out here now, since there's no guarantee I live through the night, etc.

I believe it's Carthrat, Corwin, and Strago.

Rat and Corwin I have already gone over, as have others. I won't restate it. However, how does Strago figure into this? Sure, he's been a lurking all game, - not really a great sign to begin with - but what really did it for me is reviewing Day 4 under the assumption that Rat, Corwin, and Strago are indeed the scumteam.

The trio needs one more mislynch to win. They choose me as their target. For a while I was wondering why; why me? Sure, avoiding Laggy and QR to a lesser extent I can understand: they've looked towniest, Laggy in particular. But why me and not Shale/Bardiche? Then I realised the answer.

Bardiche.

With his double-vote, Bardiche is the key townie to convince, worth two of the rest of us when pulling off the mislynch. And who did Bardiche voice suspicion of yesterday? Well, Excal headed his list, and may have been in scum's plans until Andrew did the deed he did. But I was second. Hence, I became THE target to gun for. All scum would have to do is convince Bardiche that someone he already felt apprehensive about was scum.

And who would make this argument? Rat? Oh, no. With my laying the argument on Rat, that would stink of OMGUS. Corwin? Already had it in for me, not to mention town might not so easily follow his bludgeoning lead a second time. Which left one man. Strago. Strago, the too-busy-until-now "townie" coming out of the woodwork to lay one hell of a case on me, the best he could muster. To lay a case on me that tried to cast every one of my actions as something scum would do. To lay a case on me that attacked my unaggressive style... an odd complaint for Strago, but one that makes perfect sense when you realise the argument was concocted with help from scumbuddies Corwin and Rat. And a case which, in the eyes of unbiased ol' me, was pretty stretchy and relied on the sudden, gutcheck belief that I was scum before he even started.

Adding more fuel to this theory? Strago, in his posts he's made today, has gone to great lengths to note Bard is a townie. He says it both at the start of the day, and notes it again when he criticises my suspicion of Bard, one of the towniest in his eyes. It's as if he's implicitly saying, "Bard, you're a great guy. I don't like that elf; you don't like that elf. Let's vote for him!"

This theory isn't bulletproof; these thoughts can and should be re-examined. But it's certainly an appealing one to me at the moment. It just makes so much sense.

[QuietRain]

Just woke up and played catch up.  And frankly, what kind of crack are you ON Bard?

enough evidence on him and the case against him doesn't feel entirely strong.
2) We're in LYLO. Lynching Carthrat helps us nowhere because the scum wouldn't be down one vote, just one hitman. Well, whooptiefreakin'doo, forgive me if I find that a negligable victory.

Are you actually and honestly saying that even if Carth were scum, you'd rather hit someone else in the HOPE they're scum, too, because he can't freaking vote?  Did you miss the part of the game where hitting scum (ANY scum) is what we're trying to do?  ANY scum has got to go.  We're in LYLO!  Accidently hitting town loses us the game, Bard!  Can you PLEASE explain the logic of why you're advocating letting a scum live?

And as for Strago, what exactly were you wanting me to respond to?  He says he would be going out on a limb to say I was scum but only pings me because he suspects the Elf and thinks I'm on the same side.  Where are you getting that he's making a case for me to be scum on my own merit?  The only thing he's really said is that I haven't been playing very assertively.  And perhaps not, but frankly, I don't play that way.  His point that I'm not very 'in your face' is accurate.  I don't believe being gung ho does anything but get you tunnel visioned and unable to see other things trying not to be noticed.  I do play in a more laid back style, which is why I don't often game here.  It's not really a conductive way to play when everyone else is very intense.  But it was Suicide Squad and I couldn't resist.

So, tl;dr from Bard, why did you just advocate letting someone live even if they were scum because they can't vote?  And why are you twisting Strago's comments into being a 'QR is scum' post instead of an 'I think Elf is scummy, and based on that, QR looks bad to me'?

And I agree with Laggy.  If Bard can answer these relatively quickly, I am not in favor of dragging the day out much longer.  Tai flies in today and I have a ton of stuff that I need to get done before I go pick him up from the airport.  I'll be on for most of what's left in my morning, but after that it'll be hit or miss if I'll be around to see a response.

[Laggy]

Are you actually and honestly saying that even if Carth were scum, you'd rather hit someone else in the HOPE they're scum, too, because he can't freaking vote?  Did you miss the part of the game where hitting scum (ANY scum) is what we're trying to do?  ANY scum has got to go.  We're in LYLO!  Accidently hitting town loses us the game, Bard!  Can you PLEASE explain the logic of why you're advocating letting a scum live?

Oh yeah, just because I see Bardiche raising a fuss about this, I want to nip this in the bud right now. Bard = town and Rat = scum is scenario 3 (with 3 scum total, this similarly is not disputable), as I've said. If Rat gets lynched in such a scenario, and Bard gets killed overnight (worst possible scenario), we'll have 4 townies the next day and 2 scum. In other words, not a loss. Even with Rat's weightlessness, nailing scum is still living to see another day and a chance to win this game. The math checks out on this and is undebatable.

So saying you don't want to lynch Rat because it will have no impact is completely absurd. Scum need to die today or we lose. Period.

[Bardiche]

Are you actually and honestly saying that even if Carth were scum, you'd rather hit someone else in the HOPE they're scum, too, because he can't freaking vote?  Did you miss the part of the game where hitting scum (ANY scum) is what we're trying to do?  ANY scum has got to go.  We're in LYLO!  Accidently hitting town loses us the game, Bard!  Can you PLEASE explain the logic of why you're advocating letting a scum live?

Because I don't believe Carthrat is as scummy as you all say. (ie: I don't think he's scum at the moment)

why are you twisting Strago's comments into being a 'QR is scum' post instead of an 'I think Elf is scummy, and based on that, QR looks bad to me'?

Have you been paying attention? I advocated my distrust in you since Day 3.

And I agree with Laggy.  If Bard can answer these relatively quickly, I am not in favor of dragging the day out much longer.

Mrf. I don't really like getting pressured into laying down a vote. The theories so far seem sound, and the only thing I can hold against it is possibly scum abstaining from a kill, but maybe I'm reading too much into it...

Screw it. If we lose as town, then good game to scum. You played an excellent game.

##VOTE: Carthrat

[Laggy]

If QR and NEB are scum (or some other scumteam I cannot fathom) than GG to them, they played ridiculously well. Time to see where this gets us.

##Vote: Carthrat