Suicide Squad Mafia, Game Over: Number the Dead

[Shale]

Count me in as looking askance at OK. Rapid-fire jokevote switching plus the "us scum" slip of the tongue....neither looks great, both together make this either a giant gift or an equally-giant distraction. ##FoS for now, maybe I should vote here but I don't like jumping onto Day 1 dogpiles, this is not new.

Rat: Okay, that's nutso. Argue well, I guess.

Bardiche: What Laggy said, more or less. You did say something halfway-substantive about Rat's comment, if I'm reading you right, but assertiveness is good!

[OblivionKnight]

You're all jumping over something really random and stupid.  Cid even said in the topic opening that we're evil, so of course town is scum!  Read things!  FoS on all of you going after me for that and not reading the opening of the topic.  People jumping on me for a small meaningless slip is dumb.  Easy scumtrain if needed. 

##Unvote: QuietRain
##Vote: Ashdla

New person starting a train is worrying.  Explain your not reading things.

[Shale]

So your jokevote justification was "he seems like town, so I'm voting him"?

[Dark Holy Elf]

Okay, mulling over Rat's claim... I'll admit I'm a bit confused by the idea of a vote-less person in a mafia game. Seems like it's pretty similar to not having the person in the game at all, except...

It is now day one. With seventeen alive, it takes nine to lynch. There is no deadline.

Well, I see no reason to disbelieve this, so Rat's presence does raise the lynch threshold. It's pretty artificial, though? I mean, if we get down to five people in the game, two of them scum, and three of them (town) Rat, then scum win. Much like if it were 2-v-2. This seems to make Rat entirely useless to the game unless he has a power role, but I haven't thought it all through. (No, I'm not rolefishing, just telling it like it is. I assume the scum are bright enough to figure out the same thing.)

Rat could also be lying as town in order to attract scum attention to himself I guess, not that I support lying as town basically ever (exception noted for zombie Captain K). Doesn't seem too likely anyway. Or lying as scum in hopes that we won't bother lynching him; after all he has no vote record! Won't fly for me, though; I for one will want to see some FoS action which I'll take as the next best thing. Rat, to his credit, seems to be doing just this.

Weird, anyway.

[Bardiche]

Eh, there was no need to discuss Rat's role, because it turned out to be what I expected (barring any compensatory roles to be an addition to it) and discussing it was moot. Hence why I mentioned it wasn't anything worth lynching over.

Which is a sentiment I'll contradict now: Rat can only place the lynching vote, according to what he says. This means he'll be nigh useless in a LYLO situation, since he can't add on to town votes. The question will be how long we'll (be able to) keep Carthrat for his insights and whatnot. We can elect to lynch him solely based on that role being useless to us near end-game, but I don't think it smart to base our first day lynch on that alone. Especially because I don't rule out the possibility that Rat may have been compensated for the role, in the form of another power role.

Oblivion, I don't agree with the "new person actions are worrying" sentiment, being a new person myself. Despite that, I do agree that Ashdla needs to talk more rather than short one-liners.

##UNVOTE: EvilTom

Because I see no reason for my joke vote to stand now that I am pretty set on entering SRS BSNS mode.


===----==

DHE: If I recall correct there is a Mafia role that cannot place a vote unless that vote is the vote to lynch. In other words, Rat can still be of use, but only limitedly so and that is when, in a 5P round, both townies are in consensus about the scum and Rat agrees. Still, no sense in thinking of endgame yet until we get there. With seventeen players and apparent role madness, I'm not going to think of endgame yet until we're a bit further in.

[Luther Lansfeld]

Everyone overreacts to everything in Mafia.

Hmm, Rat's claim is interesting. I will believe it for now, but I'd like to keep my eye on him of course. And Elfboy, why would that claim attract attention at all? OK's thing feels like a benign slip but Bard... I am not sure why we would even be alarmed by Rat for saying he can't vote. <_<

[Ashdla]

- There may or may not be third parties with seperate win conditions from scum or town.

One option, which has not been raised, I believe, is that Rat could win if he gets the town in that LYLO situation, even with no vote. Just throwing some random ideas into the mix. Thoughts? With that said, I agree with those who don't think Rat should be lynched on that alone, at least, not this early in the game.

New person starting a train is worrying.  Explain your not reading things.

I didn't start the train, m'dear, perhaps you need to have a look back through the posts, hm~?

[Bardiche]

Bard... I am not sure why we would even be alarmed by Rat for saying he can't vote. <_<

There were inquiries as to what Rat meant. That says enough, to me, that it rang some bells for people.

[OblivionKnight]

The same reason that people yell at you sometimes for not voting quickly and complaining about the joke vote phase - there's no vote record.  The town can't follow him, and as Carth is always a dirty bastard, why would we want to have one less bit of information to follow?  At least when you vote, there's a bit of information to glean from potential motive.  With Rat, it's just his text and, if he can only vote as a killing vote, then he's doing what the scum ask him to do, so we can't actually say that he voted badly, because he was told to do that.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bard:

Maybe I should've made it more explicit, I guess. Like 2+2. That's pretty explicit. I guess. I thought it was all pretty clear but I understand the need for detailed clarification of everything. So let's talk about one of the ramifications of my role.

-I'm not useful to town at LYLO because I have no voteweight. Functionally, LYLO is a day earlier than it would normally be for whatever numbers of town and scum we have. (Barring town doublevoter or whatever.)

(emphasis mine)

Rat can't vote even as the decider, or that post of his was pretty misleading.

I agree, endgame specifics aren't worth thinking about yet, but it's worth thinking about exactly what impact Rat's role has on the game. The game will end sooner or later, one way or another, and anything that affects how it ends, it is in town's best interest to know about.

Elfboy, why would that claim attract attention at all?

As I said, Rat's role is useless unless he has powerz. (I mean, powers besides being unable to vote obviously. <_<) So it's more likely he has powers than average, metagaming things a bit. That means scum might be more likely to kill him. Since day 1 is often a crapshoot for nightkill and who docs protect, there's arguably a case for making a bit of a lightningrod as town. I doubt it, granted, and the more I think about it the less sense it makes.

[Laggy]

Hmm, Rat's claim is interesting. I will believe it for now, but I'd like to keep my eye on him of course. And Elfboy, why would that claim attract attention at all? OK's thing feels like a benign slip but Bard... I am not sure why we would even be alarmed by Rat for saying he can't vote. <_<

I'll agree with OK's slip, given how he was pretty much in jokevote phase until now, seems minor.

Why wouldn't Rat's admission raise alarms, though? Unless you truly believe that the mod would place a completely functionless role in the game (a townie that can't vote is pretty much as close as it gets), it seems much more likely that he would have other powers of some sort. Also another reason why I asked for clarification. If he doesn't feel that it is wise to share this at this point, well, that's fair enough.

Also, did I miss something Rat said, because I don't recall him ever saying he had "just" lynchvote and more that he couldn't vote at all? I thought that was just a theory that Bardiche threw out rather than anything substantive. To my knowledge he can't vote nor hammer.

[Laggy]

God dammit NEB ninjas me basically pre-empting me on everything. ;_;

[OblivionKnight]

It is odd that Rat might not have any special powers, so he most certainly does.  If he can't vote period, it has to be supported by something else, like Governor (which makes a bit of sense politically, I'd support).  It could always be that the scum would be populated by a person with no voting power - in fact, I'd almost say that's more likely, since it neuters town unless they have some super ability.  Cid said skills aren't that uber, and Governor is pretty powerful, as would be other roles.  Almost seems like a safer scum cover to me 

[Carthrat]

Geezus no I can't cast any votes, I can't cast a lynch vote, I'm cannot vote at all. I've no idea how this conclusion was reached but ok, there it is, all cleared up.

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

AndrewRogue (1): Meeplelard
Ashdla (1): Deltaflyer2k8, OblivionKnight
Bardiche (1): Deltaflyer2k8
Carthrat (1): Jo'ou Ranbu
Ciato (1): QuietRain
Deltaflyer2k8 (1): Shale
Elfboy (0): Ashdla
EvilTom (0): Bardiche
Excal (1): Ciato
Laggy (1): AndrewRogue
Meeplelard (1): Elfboy
OblivionKnight (3): Laggy, Excal, Ashdla
QuietRain (0): OblivionKnight
Shale (0): OblivionKnight
Strago (0): OblivionKnight

With seventeen alive, it takes nine to lynch.

[Excal]

OK, you're calling us out for not reading the opening?  I'll admit that we are all evil, in our own special way.  But who ever said that in order to kill an evil man, one has to be good?  And, the designation of town and scum rarely has anything to do with good or evil, and more to do with who happens to be in the know, and doing the killing.

Now, looking ever more closely at your behaviour, you've actually been acting as a kind of impedement to discussion, and striving to extend the joke vote phase with your nonsensical ramblings and votes.  Moreover, while there has been discussion over how Rat could be coming up with an excuse for why he doesn't have to leave behind a vote record, I'd like to point out that if you keep on voting as you have, you'll also obscure your own vote record simply by running over it so many times that the information provided there is meaningless.  Especially since you have only once given a reason for your vote, and a second time you said you were going to vote for a person anyways, and yet you have never said why, even when challenged.

You do not defend yourself or your actions, only throw meaningless accusations back at those who accuse you.

These are several more concrete reasons besides your slip of the tongue in order to find your posts highly questionable, and to find you the most suspicious person here so far.  And, I'd like to see something worth reading to suggest why we shouldn't end your participation in this thread.

[EvilTom]

Bwahaha, ah this game is off to a fantastic start already!
I applaud Rat for making me laugh, and I pooh-pooh those who leapt all over it in serious business style; way to dampen the fun.
As payment for his hilarity, I shall do as he says; ##Vote: Bardiche - the guy who votes for me because I'm evil; duh, we're supposed to be evil! And then you remove your 'joke vote' from me before I've had a chance to tell you my evil scheme? You're obviously a goody-two shoes townscum!

I'm going to continue the way of the Rat, and break this out in my first post too!
I am so evil, I warn you all now, that it is meaningless to try and kill me! Town will waste their votes trying to kill me, and by murdering me then scum will only make me more powerful in the process!
Mwahahaha!

But untill some idiot tries to kill me (a completely pointless and unproductive act, I assure you), I shall do my best to help root out the scum who must be punished.

*evil laughter, followed by booming thunder and crackling lightning*

PS. No, I will not elaborate on my evil scheme and/or powers.
PPS. I'll provide tea and cookies for those who visit me in my secret evil lair. It's behind the waterfall in the forest.
Ah, Ninja'd by Excal, being boorish. I'll have to install an anti-ninja device in my secret lair.

[Excal]

...

It feels so odd when I'm one of the few who isn't letting a role influence his posts.

Tom is also managing a fantastic job of making my head hurt with this...  additional claim.  For all that it does seem to be the biggest power claimed thus far.  (Yes, even bigger than an inability to vote)  Sadly, my first reaction is the push the shiny red button, but I know I'll most definatly have reconsidered by the time eight other people have also thought about it.

And while there's a few things that strike me the wrong way, they seem more flavour and the maintenance of the scum = good philosophy which seems vaguely harmful even in jest.

PS: Thank you for the cookies, but I'm afraid I had to decline the almond flavoured tea.

[Laggy]

Stuff

I'm going to have to say that I am feeling very, very uncomfortable with this claim of "I cannot die, don't ask me to explain further, because I won't!" and the general excessive rhetoric that feels totally unnecessary. Furthermore, there was no prompting for such a claim, which leads me to wonder... what the heck why?

[Carthrat]

Can't be killed under any circumstances, huh.

Or, you know, an impressive lie.

One thing is for sure- claiming any kind of bulletproof in the early game is pretty silly. My intentions via claiming voteless early on were very clear; I'd have *no option* but to do so later in the day and saw no reason to hide it, anyhow. His? Uh.. if you're pro-town.. why give that away? Better to hope scum targets you to absorb a kill. :|

"Completely unkillable" screams third-party to me, anyhow, with some unique win condition not based on his own survival. It's going to be difficult to trust anything he's got to say.

[Carthrat]

Caveat: I just noticed that he didn't claim BP on death, but whatever his trigger-on-death mechanic is, I still don't get why you'd give away having one immediately. :V

[Deltaflyer]

Wow, its been busy whilst i was away.

[Meeplelard]

I play MMBN3 for most of the day, come back, Elfboy is calling everyone crazy for letting me free without a vote...which is probably legit, and then hell breaks loose in ways that I only dream of causing.

...actually, this probably doesn't really sum up what happened, so I'll be more serious!

Rat, by claiming you can't vote, isn't that also basically saying "Scum! Leave me alone! I'm useless!" Granted, if you really have no vote power, I don't know what the best course of action is...if you never claim that, people will call you out for never voting, and you'd be forced to Role Claim anyway, so yeah, probably claiming that early is the best option.

Alternatively, Rat's a Jester or whatever that role is called, and he's TRYING to get himself lynched.  Ludicrous claims like "I can't vote" "I'm useless" and the rest of his posts feel like he's trying to make himself stand out as much as possible...

...oh fuck it, I think I'm looking too deep into it.

Regarding OK's slip...eh, Day 1 silliness, don't feel it means much.  When you're not being serious, you tend to not take what you're writing 100% either, so you tend to overlook some stuff.

Evil Tom's claim...now that's just weird. "unkillable"?  Again, I'm leaning towards the Jester (if that's the name of the role.)
He's coming out saying "YOU CAN'T KILL ME, I'M INVINCIBLE!"  So naturally, he's hoping we TRY to kill him and, succeed...and cause he got himself lynched, he wins!

...yeah, its late, I think I'm over analyzing this.  All I can say is, if Rat really can't vote, and Evil Tom really can't die...

...I don't know how to finish that sentence.  All I can say is this game is going to be interesting, to say the least!

But back to Rat...if Rat really can't vote, either...
A. He's lying.  Always a possibility.  Only reason I could see him lying about this is cause he's trying to get lynched...but maybe there is some other weird strategy he's working with.
B. He really can't vote, HOWEVER, he's got some sort of power role that makes him not useless.
C. He's a completely useless player, and was tossed in by the mod just to add to the insanity of the game.

How reasonable these situations are? A...well, can't really say much about that unless we know more of what's going on.
B, there's two possibilities.  Obviously, those are "He knows his Power role" and "Hidden Power Role not revealed to he himself."  I don't expect Rat to claim the former if he does have one this early, for a number of reasons, and obviously, he can't speak for the second.  Telling us he can't vote this early does in fact mean quite a bit. 
C...uh, El-Cid, you're mad if you indeed did do that.

Also...if Rat is in fact lying...he's pulling one heck of a gamble.  Why? By saying he can't Vote, he pretty much has to follow through, and never actually vote the rest of the game.  Should he slip in n actual vote, well, something's obviously up.

For that reason, I'd be willing to more believe B's the case.  C's just silly, but then, maybe I'm underestimating how silly this game is suppose to be, and A puts him in a situation where he has to follow through.

...is it too early to make these assumptions? Yes, yes it is.  Its also past 4 AM here, so I'm not really thinking at my best, so I'm probably missing some very obvious factors when I read over, but...that's all I can come up with for now.

[Corwin]

Seems like we started, and I had the misfortune not to see it this morning, and then work got suddenly busy. And then the forum wouldn't load for me, what's up with that? So uncool.

http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24311#msg24311 -- Day one or not, I agree with the sentiment in that post. I'll totally keep it in mind, too, Ashdla.

Then, there's this post when he jumps on OK, who had just came under fire from Excal ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24340#msg24340 ).

BUT OK is kinda worth the extra scrutiny, so it's hardly proof of scumminess, even for day 1. If anyone should get a vote, it's really Tom. Why?

Let's examine the scenarios I'm seeing here:

-Tom is entirely, 100% truthful! He's town, and town lynching him gives him superpowers beyond measure! (or doesn't harm him, thus proving his claims to a point, I'm not certain which is supposed to happen)

Okay. How is this a bad option, then?

-Tom is lying scum. Tom dies.

Ditto!

-Tom is lying town/TP/a muppet. Lynching Tom... eliminates a third party player, a lying town or a muppet.

It's hard, it really is, to see the cons of this approach.

##Vote: EvilTom

In the worst case scenario, my vote gets 'wasted', a possibility I don't personally believe in and which I can live with here.

[Bardiche]

... This is where I face palm when EvilTom places a joke vote.

Meeple makes an excellent point about Rat, although I still don't think it's smart to lynch him just for hunches. EvilTom, on the otherhand... Yeah, accuse me of rolefishing, but I see absolutely no reason to announce such a role beforehand unless you're afraid we'd lynch you (which, at this point, we're still divided and most really don't have a concrete idea of who they want a vote in) or you have, indeed, some scheme up your sleeve that involves us lynching you or highly doubting your integrity as being town-aligned.

There's something odd, though. He explicitly says "town will waste votes trying to kill me" and "when murdered then scum will only grow more powerful". Almost as if he is trying to summon the town... And yeah, I'm one for lots of conjecture and theorizing... But at the moment I don't know what to make of it. Since uh, Rat's VOTELESS ROLE isn't one in traditional Mafia, I can only assume our dear El Ciddo threw in some unique roles not elsewhere observed.

So so far, these are my thoughts:

EvilTom: Confusing us isn't helping us. I'm not sure what to make of him, whether he is joking or being genuine... At this point, I don't yet support an EvilTom lynch until we've properly weighed out the alternatives.

Ashdla: Needs to talk more.

Deltaflyer: Needs to say more than "It's been busy while I was away". If you're catching up and intend to post something bigger later, tell us! Right now, you're veering into the "lurker" status, and that's not beneficial regardless of alignment.

OblivionKnight: I concur with Excal. You've got three votes on you and yet you've ignored it. To be fair, there's only one real motive for voting on you that you should defend ("I was going to vote on Shale anyway" sentiment), so it'd be nice if you could explain that. You know we'll pounce on everything you say!

Carthrat: Huh, can't vote at all. I concur with Meeple on this point, that it could be something like that... Mm, too little information as yet. I see no reason to lynch him for it, although I do consider it an option when we're going to "narrow" down the amount of players and cannot decide on an eligible target. For now, I appreciate Rat's analytical ability enough not to want to support a train on him yet.



For now I rather EvilTom explains himself a little more, but I'm not expecting he'll yield more information that easily.