Suicide Squad Mafia, Game Over: Number the Dead

[Shale]

Shale. Here ( http://www.rpgdl.com/forums/index.php?topic=1398.msg24655#msg24655 ) he cites RL as the reason, and then follows up with saying he would have voted for whom we now know to be a town player without hesitation. This is something I'd like to hear him explain.

I thought Tom was suspicious when I went to bed, and when I woke up and started writing a post he still looked the scummiest. What, am I supposed to lie about it now that I have the benefit of hindsight?

At the same time, Shale is trying to direct attention towards the people who DID vote for either of the three targets of day 1. Presumably, it means Tom's voters, as Delta and OK had two votes between the two of them; the same Tom, whose innocence Shale now knows and says he would have gone for, but it was apparently suspicious to pursue while his claims were still very much in doubt.

Huh? All three of yesterday's leading vote-getters are gone, and all flipped non-scum. Therefore: 1) it's pretty damn likely that scum would be trying to help lynch them, since that's kinda what scum does; and 2) if the people who looked suspicious yesterday weren't scum, then it's time to look at the people who avoided suspicion. That doesn't seem controversial to me.

[Bardiche]

He still apparently has minor stuff about me to talk about, too. I'm very curious as to what that might be.

Was re-reading everything, figured I should shed words on this.

##VOTE: Carthrat

Explanation forthcoming after the vote count. And on that notice,

Requesting vote count.

[Sierra]

Current votecount:

Bardiche (1): AndrewRogue
Carthrat (2): Anonymous, Bardiche
Shale (1): Ciato
Strago (1): Laggy

With fourteen alive, it takes eight to lynch.

[Bardiche]

##UNVOTE: Carthrat, because it was just to show proof of what I am about to say.

Sooner or later I would've voted, and everyone would've gone, "ohmigawd an anonymous vote!!" and some of you would write essays conjecturing what it could be and what have you. That's... That's really cool, and all, but this ability I have, I want to use for good. 'kay?

So you ask, "What is your ability, Bardiche you sexy beast?" Well, quite simply. Anytime I participate in a succesful lynch train, I accrue one extra vote, which will show as Anonymous on votecounts. At present, since I was part of the EvilTom lynchtrain, I have two votes. It is why I was so active on day 1, intent on accrueing at least that one extra vote power. Because... well, I think any role should at least be somewhat used, right?

I won't lie; At first I just wanted to keep this ability a secret and accrue additional votes until my one vote could lynch someone! ... Then I realized that's a pretty stupid plan because it doesn't help Town at all.

Specifics:
- I gain one extra vote each time I am part of a succesful lynch train. If I unvoted that person before he got lynched, I will not get an extra vote.
- I cannot divide my votes, nor can I choose not to use them. If I vote, my vote will count for 1 + each succesful train that I am part of.
- I... think I could potentially trigger an instant-lynch at a later date. I have no confirmation on this, but nothing said I cannot.

There you have it. The reason I have decided to show my role is because of a variety of reasons:

1) I *could* have tried and pretend my nose bled. "Huh, anonymous votes? That's odd!" But were it to be found out it was me, that'd be a certain way to death. There's no reason I can find to hide this, unless:
2) To show my goodwill towards town. This ability of mine, were I to somehow sneak under the cloak of suspicion long enough that no one connects the ability to me (voting for the same people others do, hammer voting, avoiding being the last to vote before a votecount) could, as I highlighted earlier, be a potential hammervote from the get-go. I will not bear ill will to those that suggest I further stay my hand and avoid accrueing more votes.

-------

What does this have to do with that there's "something minor about Carthrat"? The minor thing would be that I have additional voting power, making it believable to me that there can be Townies without voting power. IE: I feel pretty confident Carthrat is, in all likelihood, a (likely town) person that just doesn't have voting power, balanced out by my strengthened voting power.

What's that? I still advocated Carthrat's lynch? Good gracious, dear man, I last shed any significant words (beyond "minor things") on it on page 4, clearly saying that lynching Rat based on his supposed role is stupid, with a joke addendum "unless he is a scum role". Moreover, if you read back to the first pages, you'll see I've been clearly saying that it is not my intent to lynch Rat based solely on the role he may or may not have. For all that there may be reason to lynch me, I feel that that is certainly not one.

Would that I could dispense my votes among others, certainly I would assign them to targets of Carthrat, and later EvilTom's likings. That is, however, not within my power.

[Excal]

Also, I'd like to take a moment and focus suspicion on Snow.  Looking back at Day 1, he not only has the benefit of being one of the three people who didn't vote, but in one post he lays down a finger of suspicion on both OK and Tom.  This is at the point in the day when they were both viable lynch targets and the OK train hadn't jumped over to Tom.  The especially telling thing is that the third person he considers in his post is Deltaflyer, but dismisses him and then when it comes time to consider posting he names Rat as the third leg in the tripod, despite the fact that Rat was his joke vote which he dropped going into that post, and that he does not make any mention of Rat before that in the post.

I'm going to check and see if there's any more content by Snow before I make any more concrete demands, but for now that's where my interest lies.


Edit: Bard, your last sentence is a bit mangled.  Would you be aiming at Rat, or at targets Rat wants gone?

[Bardiche]

Re-underlining my earlier statement, which is a pre-emptive to people that might suggest I use my additional votes to vote in lieu of Carthrat and/or EvilTom. I'm not a double voter, who can elect to place one vote in Target A and the second vote in Target B. All my votes are on the same person, whether I will it or not.

[Excal]

Giving voices to the voiceless I see.  Good to know.

Regardless, reading over things again, that was Snow's only post after page 2, and while he does bicker a bit with Rat early on, it's pretty clear he's not in serious mode as he does so, and it's during the transition to serious Mafia when he disappears.  So, let's do this.

##Vote: Joe Rambo

Why the suspicion on Rat?  Also, why no vote?  And, given how little you've shown up/posted, why haven't you at least given a cursory I'm busy post?

[Bardiche]

Giving voices to the voiceless I see.  Good to know.

Yeah, I need to work on clarity here. I can't do that.

[Ashdla]

Alrighty, time to post now that I'm home from work.

Just to be as clear and constructive as I can, I think I'll address Bardiche's questions to my behaviour, and then outline how I feel about each player thus far.

The reason I asked Elf to defend against a jokevote was really quite simple, I was -joking-. >.>;
Really, there's not much more to be said there, it is what it is. I do apologize if that was carrying the joke phase a bit far, I'll know better for the next game I'm in.

Secondly, the Rat thing, I was honestly suspicious of Rat, initially. I think most of us -were-, or at least a bit concerned as to what his claim might mean for the game. Since that post I have reconsidered, (actually not very long after that post) and I don't think that Rat's lack of vote warrants suspicion, as much as I know most of us are curious as to what/how it may or may not be compensated.

Lastly, I didn't exactly jump on the lynch train, that is to say, I didn't vote for OK simply because everyone else was voting for him. I did think he was suspicious, but mostly disruptive, for reasons I have since outlined in my posts.

I think that clears those things up. Moving on!

Andrew Rogue: His vote for Delta, from what I can gather from his post, was to provoke him into posting more, not necessarily a bad thing, but it does seem a bit... unproductive. However, he didn't speak from that point on, until after Tom's lynch happened, which sort of seems odd, even if you were busy with RL things. What is more curious to me, is that he voted for Delta, who he said wasn't really a threat, and then in a later post, said that he didn't approve of targeting someone unless you thought they were scummy. Sort of curious.

Ciato: She initially kept pulling people away from targeting Rat. Aside from that, most of her posts have been rather short and haven't really had much to say in them. Doesn't seem a particularly scummy target at this point, though.

Strago: Has been laying kind of low in my opinion, in that he's only posted twice, neither of which had a vote in them. Not that lack of voting is a ridiculously terrible thing to do, but it's still noteworthy, if nothing else.

Carthrat: Yes, I admit it, his no vote claim initially made me suspicious. Since then, however, I have seen the wisdom of his decision to bring it forward to early, as well as we have all seen that he isn't lying, since he voted and nothing happened. I suppose I'm neutral on him at the moment.

QuietRain: From what I have seen, she's been a fairly frequent poster so far, and her posts have all had something to say in them, as opposed to being short or filled with fluff. I can't say I have anything terribly terrible to bring to light in this case.

Bardiche: Claimed that he knew Rat could make a lynching vote earlier in the game, and then didn't really defend himself one way or another when others asked where he got this information, since Rat hadn't mentioned that himself. Whether it was an honest mistake or not, seems a bit odd to me. Moreover, I'll be honest, I don't like how he keeps gunning for me for not explaining things, even after I explain what he asked me to explain.

Elfboy: The lack of voting mildly concerns me, since I can understand the reasons he gave, not wanting Tom to be without a chance to defend himself, ect. Not really much else to say on him at this point.

Meeple: Eh... seemed adamant on blaming OK's behaviour on role madness, after laggy had quoted the rules, where they stated roles would not have a large impact on the gameplay. Other than that, I'm honestly finding Meeple hard to read.

Laggy: I haven't seen anything terribly scummy in his behaviour thus far. People seemed to jump on him rather quick for rolefishing on Rat, I'm still new to Mafia, so I'm not sure if that should be a huge no-no or not.

Shale: Called Rat out initially on proving his lack of voting power. Even though it turned out to be true, I can't say that was a bad suggestion on his part. Outside of that... has posted barely at all, most of which have been in the jokevote phase, and ant meaningful to the game.

Jo'ou Ranbu: Not voting, and potentially casting FoS at the two most likely targets to cover that up? It's a possibility. Honestly, he's posted three times so far, only one of which had any content in it.

Corwin: ...wow, I thought he had posted a lot more than he did. Huh. Maybe someone else missed this too? Other than that though, nothing terribly strikes me about him at this point.

Excal: I thought his posts were pretty logical, and agreed with most of what he has said thus far. Hasn't really seemed odd to me. Though I agree with Laggy he hasn't really brought anything new to the table, he's supported his arguments well.

Not prepared to cast a vote yet myself. Now I go eat. e_e

[Meeplelard]

I've been looking at Andrew's posts after what Ashdla said, and well...I dunno.

He's had 2 long posts.  The first of which is just "these are the three potential lynch candidates!" and then goes to voting against Delta to prod him into speaking...and then says nothing.  Next post, he basically just argues about Bard's stance, then goes on about "These are the people who look like on the Tom Train!"  its true I am one of those people, but...

Well, why single out specific 5?  Anyone on the Tom Train can be suspicious, I feel.  Bard's hammer might be out of place, but at the same time, I'm not willing to call that an immediate scum tell, but rather, a bad play.  personally don't think scum would let him pull a stunt like that, ESPECIALLY since he apparently has that extra vote power (Thus an extra vote in scum's favor), so I'm inclined to say its more bad play than anything else.  Bard, in the future, if you're about to hammer, please announce your intent first to give time for role claims, last minute analyses, etc.

I dunno; Andrew's style of Post a sizable post (I know, I'm not one to talk), disappear, then reappear, accuse others, and then disappear again always strikes me as off.

Next off...Ciato's obssessed with my posting style it seems.  Um, ok, you know how I am, you know I tend to do this EVERY GAME I'M IN, and you're holding it against me...now?  Even though you know very well I was doing other things (you used MM7 as an excuse, in which case, I can say I was playing MMBN3 and MMXCM instead.  There's nothing wrong with placing other games above Mafia, etc.)
No, I'm not saying this excuses my actions.  What I'm saying is you know very well you have to have more of a basis than "He's posting large posts with little content!"  Laggy noted that, but at the same time, he basically stated it says nothing one way or another.

Basically, her whole attack on me right now feels like its based entirely off a play style move.
She voted for me on Day 1 based off that entirely, more or less, which...feels weird.

Getting a neutral read from here right now, but I'm just saying that calling me out on the "Long posts, little content!" ...well, happens every damn game from SOMEONE and its been proven to be a really flawed argument.


I'll need to look over Shale's posts, to see if I actually find something off about him.  However, the point fingers at people, talk about lynching, and then not casting a vote...yeah, that doesn't look too good.

Regarding the discounting OK's actions due to some role factor?  I was pretty confident OK was doing that for some reason.
I wasn't sure if it was:
A. Someone else's actions.  Someone could have a manipulative ability that forces people to say specific things (using the mod as a middle man to hide their prescence) and thus, yeah.  Though, maybe this falls under Roles are not effecting post restrictions.
B. OK was doing that because of his role, be it directly or indirectly.  And the only reason to get THAT much attention to yourself is if you get some sort of benefit from being lynched.

Well, hey look! OK flips Jester!  That's about as good a role as you can get to be lynched with; kind of hard to argue against "You win!" So he comes in with useless posts, obvious scum slips, and just being generally ridiculous...frankly, I knew there was something afoot here.  I just couldn't tell if OK's actions were being controlled by someone else, or OK was trying to get attention to himself for the sake his own role being lynch worthy.

For this reason, I was reluctant about going after him later.  The latter, which it clearly was the case, we'd be doing him a favor and not helping us at all.  The former, we'd be lynching a town cause of someone elses actions.

That and Tom's really weird play felt off.

I don't think we should lynch Rat at all.  While yes, he can't vote...his still good at analyzing, and can get us into the right direction.  He's also good at pressing others.  His inability to vote hurts us, but its also not a reason to lynch him.  He's already proven he can't vote anyway.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Okay, I'm finally back from training. Now, for people eyeing me for lack of posting content, let me clarify my position:

This week, I started a day-long training week at an English school, and I have to be there early in the morning and I also have to tutor at the early night just as I get back. This highly limitates my Mafia schedule until Friday, which I already had discussed with Cid. This also happened to somate with poor timing, since, yesterday, when I finally got to the computer, the hammer had already sounded, and I thought Monday was a bit early to cast a definite vote in any direction, and the 1st night period only ended after I had to head to bed. It wasn't my intention to end up not voting, but I thought the day would have gone for longer considering the confusion back on Monday.

Now, this is an easy copout, I know, but sometimes, these unfortunate coincidences happen. The lack of content in my posts is explainable partly from the fact that all of them happened in Day 1. The -only- read I had was "omg this is dumb", like Laggy said, and it really wasn't a very thorough decision, but it's not hard to understand -why- I made that. And, to Excal: I -did- note that I was busy in one of my earlier posts (actually, my first post with any content? I threw the disclaimer at the beginning of it, but sorry if it wasn't clear).

Okay, defenses done. Now, I can simply say "my head hurts" like anyone else, since killing both OK and delta this evening brought a fine WIFOM upon us, but we still need to get people into discussing and posting. And then, there's the fact that we have Bard's role reveal, which, quite frankly, feels a bit hurried to me, since he's just being pressured by a few people, there's not even a train going yet. On the other hand, this could well mean he is just a desperate townie. He proved his power is true, at least, but I'd still like to see a better defense. Also, I've no idea of what to make of the Rat and the town/scum majority vote, which makes me suspect he may have something under his sleeve, but too early to put my finger on it. While it mathematically makes perfect sense, it still throws me off a bit.

But, as for now, I think I'll just add a pressure "post more" vote:

##VOTE: Strago

Since he has been almost as absent as I have.

[Bardiche]

Jo'ou, the reason I revealed it is because I cannot hide it, and I might as well throw it out there immediately rather than wait until it is time to vote and my condition becomes known.

I don't at all feel endangered yet with no votes on me and no case construed against me that goes beyond "little suspicious" and "Carthrat lynch".

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Bard, you do realize that you may have possibly put yourself and town into a rather delicate situation, right? Now that you've laid it out in the open, scum may (and, if they're cunning enough, probably will!) try to bait you into lynchtrains and score more townie kills and endanger the town with the increasing risk of a LYLO.

Then, there's the fact that, while you can't hide the existence of Anonyvotes, there's no reason to go "oh I cannot hide that" and deliberately blow your cover for the sake of blowing it (which is what you did). That was an act that shows desperation of some sort, and I cannot really fathom why would you do that so easily outside of ingenuity or deliberate smokescreening. I dunno, it just feels something just didn't went through properly in the logic train here.

[Carthrat]

Jo'ou discerns that the great danger of Bardiche throwing this out into the open is that scum may CONVINCE HIM TO MISLYNCH OH MY GOD THE WORLD IS ENDING

Bardiche has already offered to stay his hand- a rather questionable course of action, I must admit (I would probably not do the same!), but I hardly see how this makes our situation any more 'delicate', as you put it, and with that admission out there I find your angle bizzare.

He totally couldn't hide it for long, and has saved us all some time and effort by revealing it early, something I think was necessary given that now we know the terms of how his vote increases. Some roles just aren't worth the bother of keeping secret, and vote-related ones are chief amongst them.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I guess you have a point. I dunno, I guess I'm just second-guessing myself and overthinking how scum can exploit things. Regardless, you will excuse me for being uncomfortable with role-claiming without an immediate, life-threatening reason, and there's nothing that says he couldn't be non-aligned with town even then. I dunno, it's just -the way- in which he revealed, which felt flamboyant and calling. And I'm not complaining that he couldn't hide it for long, that much is a bit obvious. Just... why roleclaim so gratuitously? That's what bothers me.

[Carthrat]

Well. I can't really fault him much for being gratuitous alone. What bothers me about Bardiche in general are these reservations he has on doing things that are based off 'I don't want to look scummy.' Only when you say that, it makes you look just as bad as doing the action itself would (if not worse in my own eyes, at least, because I hate reluctance and all that.)

Jo'ou bothers me somewhat more, though, because his line of attack is originally based on how scum can exploit things, and not a far more potentially deadly concern, which is 'what if Bardiche is scum?' EVEN THOUGH he is finding the man suspicious based on role, it doesn't seem as though he's considered the most obvious and dangerous of ramifications; as a result, his attitude doesn't seem to be coming from a townie perspective.

That's enough to make me, um, point at Jo'ou instead of Bard. ##UnFoS Bardiche, ##FoS Jo'ou. Goddamit, Cid.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

I need to shout out loud "HEY BARDY LOOKS SCUMMY" to make my perspective shown? If I find someone suspicious enough to raise my eyebrows, it's because I find the behavior detractive to town. And, to me, both threats are equal in danger - i.e. they get us fucking killed and lose town the game. I don't think I need to scream those corollaries all the time just to point out a behavior isn't quite right - which, at least, I kinda succeeded at regarding the 'diche. I think I drove the fact I don't trust him very much fine, and you got it. But I'm not going to point fingers this adamantly about the possibility of scumminess, since -everybody is suspect of being scum as is right now- anyway.

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Well, everybody among the living anyway.

[Meeplelard]

Bard's action strikes me as reasonable, frankly.  Yes, Scum will try to use this to their advantage, but frankly, they were going to do that anyway.  Seriously, if someone tries to persuade Bard into a train, that's painting a red target to me.  All things considered, it doesn't really change our stance, except as Rat pointed out, it did save us time and effort of finding out where that anonyvote came from.

Considering the way this game is going in some cases, I can't fault him for doing that so quickly too.  Hold off on voting to keep this a secret could work...except there seems to be some popular hate against reluctance to vote lately.  Given Bard's position, if he held off on voting for this sake, people would eventually call him out for not voting, and he's be forced to explain why anyway...

UNLESS he could hide the anonyvote in a long chain of other votes where there wasn't any Vote Counts.  But that's hoping things work out a certain way, and really not worth it.

Considering all this, I think Bard's action was reasonable enough.


-----

Anyway, looking back at a few posts...

Ciato calls me out for dwelling on the Rat scenario, when I...had one paragraph talking about it, and why it'd be a bad move to lie about something like that (and truth be told, its already been confirmed he can't vote, as evident when he voted to see what would happen, and it didn't get recorded.) And all she does is basically say what I said anyway, in less words (again, flaw on my part as a 'human', I am trying to fix this, honest! ;_; )

Following that...here's her next two posts!

I'm pretty sure that OK has some kind of weird joke role that is causing this, at this point. Seems like a safe enough bet.

Um, because the way he says things are ... not logical for anyone?


QR might be onto something. There is a role called politician that you have to garner the most votes without getting lynched. I'm not really sure, but as is the behavior is not registering to me as logical Mafia play.

So she says OK's acting weird cause of some role likely.  Ok, fair (and it was true too!)  That's fine and all, but her next post...

I find that trying to weave through intentions of various posters and trying to decide if they are scum gambits based off of posting style being awkward is futile on Day 1.


I'm not exactly sure what the heck Tom was thinking, though. I need to go back and read the posts.

Feels a bit hypocritical, no?  She was speculating before in the last two posts about why OK was acting that way, and then goes and says...its useless?  This feels weird.

She's also been...purely responsive, I feel like.  She didn't make a single case on anyone, or really analyze much, just says "Well, this point could be this way!" and such.  The one thing she's said so far is the whole "Meeple, why are you obsessed with Rat?" (despite my post being primarily related to the Tom incident.)

Her next post is, not surprising, another one liner.  IN response to a post about Laggy involving game rules...when Laggy didn't even talk to about a single person specifically, but meant it as a heads up to everyone.

Heck, that post in general, not sure why she's responding at all.  Paranoaia or something? I dunno; Laggy was only responding to OK and El-Cid posts recently, and I don't seem Ciato talking about Rat anywhere beyond more or less reiterating what I said earlier, acting like its not what I said (that's the impression I got.)  Seems like she's not paying attention to her own posts?

And then finally, she posts something of content!

She explains to Tom why his actions are bad.  Then talks about Delta and Strago being weird...
Then goes after me for...laying very low?  Ok, wow, so I didn't post within a few pages, yet, there are people like Corwin who didn't even post in a longer time.  Of all people, she goes after me, and she called me out earlier for a Rat thing which was overemphasized what i was doing to boot.  Furthermore, she only says "Tom has enough pressure!" when she kind of admitted he was the best lynch person in that post, and votes me.  Um, I don't see the logic here; Tom being pressured clearly wasn't changing anything, you went after me, someone who clearly wasn't getting lynched that day...

Its true, I didn't post again until Today...but then again, after Ciato's last post, the hammer appeared not long after.  For the record, it looks like 8 hours, but keep in mind the time frame; it was during a time when I was likely asleep and/or at work (Truck shifts at 6:30 AM are a bitch.)  So in actual time for me, that was little.

Rat does talk about my playstyle, but admits that I'm not a good target.  And he says "Sort of right" and admits that I'm playing like I always do, and it feels more like he's simply warning me to not post an essay.  Again, I'm sorry; I try, but it always ends up wordy ;_;

I dunno; Ciato's been laying low if anything.  She has said...practically nothing, posting mostly 1 to 2 line posts, even if its day 1, you can still contribute more than that (my posts are overkill, admittedly, but people were still able to form paragraphs.) She finally posts something and goes after me for being myself.  Even now, she's doing it on Day 1! Combined with what feels like hypocracy I pointed out earlier...I feel she's off.

Call it an OMGUS, but I wasn't actually looking at her posts til it occured to me she wasn't saying much at all, DESPITE the obvious presence indicated in her small, somewhat meaningless posts.

What about her posts today?  Comes in, says "oh, OK died on an NK, that's good!", then talks about more role madness in her next post.

She finally posts something of content today!  But that's not excusing what I feel was odd in Day 1.  IN her post, she again, argues against my playstyle.  As I have stated earlier, THIS IS A BAD IDEA.  You can warn me for it and say "please stop it!" or something, and say how its not helpful, but holding it against me as a scumploy? Um, yeah, people have tried it in the past and it failed, outside of FE Mafia where I was scum, and I ultimately got down there not cause of me acting that way, but cause of something else (you of all people should know that!)

She did vote on shale eventually, mind.    But her post, she feels like she's...almost pointing fingers?  Says "Meeple is being unhelpful for being Meeple!" and used similar logic to vote against me yesterday.  Has a snide remark about Andrew being himself (hiding, popping up, big post where he's aggressive, huddling back in the corner.  I know for a fact that she notices this since in FE Mafia, she herself stated this is how he plays.)  She does admit its baseless conjecture...but why bring it up then?
She also talks about Elfboy being weird for not voting right after he explained why he didn't (and also noted how Tom picked up votes quickly out of nowhere, so he didn't really have much of a chance to do anything.)

Also, he voting for Shale she says "summed up by Cor" and then restates what he said.  I think people are looking a bit too much into a minor point by Shale.  Gee, lets think about it...
3 people flip, 2 towns and a Jester.  What are you going to do? Look at people who were ignoring the case altogether and went after people who weren't flipped, and try to attack someone blindly? No, that's...just giving scum what they want.  Flips are the best info we have at the moment, going based off people who interacted with them is the best we'll get.
Also, he didn't say "voted", he said "attacking."  Attacking doesn't necessarily mean votes; it could mean putting pressure on them to get them into a situation TO seem suspicious and garner votes.  Call it mincing words, but equating one thing to another doesn't always work.
As such, think people are looking a bit too deep into some wording.  Especially since one of Cor's earlier statements, that being how he is known for going after people with bad grammar, etc. (makes me wonder why I'm still alive! <.<), and he was the one who mentioned it initially, feels like its some nitpicking here.  

So...yeah, that's what I'm going off for now.  She says I'm laying low, when she was doing the exact same thing.  If this is her general playstyle...well, there you go; she was doing the exact same thing to me at one point.  But that doesn't excuse her being unhelpful in Day 1 for almost the entirety, claiming I was going on about Rat when it wasn't remotely close to the lionshare of my post, some of what feels like hypocrisy...

Anyway, if its not obvious...

##Vote: Ciato

-----
ninja'd by the rat, damn you voteless bastard!

[Jo'ou Ranbu]

Okay, I'm going to bed now and probably will only be back after at least 17 hours. Just giving a heads up in case my timing blows again this game.

[AndrewRogue]

To be frank, its pretty hard to ascertain an actual post pattern on someone from pure day one activities, where I may or may not actually be, say, busy or preoccupied and thus unable to post more than a decent, chunky post and move on. Take it as you shall.

On the subject of Delta: I did not say he was not a threat. What I said was that he was a complete wild card and I couldn't get a read one way or the other. Big difference. The fact is that Delta's play was something that was obviously either from a very, very, very casual school of mafia play or very newbie play. This reads painfully either way. Either he's town and doesn't know what he's doing, or he's scum and doesn't know what he's doing. His growing hostility definitely was not a positive thing, and his actual responses to me were incredibly unsatisfying. As it stood, he could pretty clearly swing either way... much like the rabid and crazed posting of one OblivionKinght or the odd and early gambit of one EvilTom. Given the options, I'd say he was both a viable and even "safe" lynch.

Really, I would have preferred he go down day one than Tom or OK. He certainly was not behaving in a manner that could be called pro-town. So, really. By the end of the day, he did, in fact, fit both the criteria of being scummy and have the additional weight of being a figure who seemed, at best, to be deadweight to town. Even if I had posted again, I would likely have advocated for a lynching of Delta over both OK and Tom.

To Meeple: I point out those five because I want to make sure its obvious to everyone that they were on both lynch trains. Its not a huge thing, but it is important to keep track of where votes land. Five people specifically built up on two non-scum aligned figures. So, in all liklihood, there is at the least one scum in that group. This gives us a pretty strong central point of investigation to start with.

Anyhow, the revelation of Bardiche's extra vote is plesant, but I do ask that we keep in mind that this means the hammer can come even sooner. I also, obviously, recommend that we watch how large Bardiche's vote weight gets.

Furthermore, I'm gonna put out this basic reminder, since I really hate this particular style of argument: just because scum can communicate does not mean that scum is immune to dumb/questionable moves. I've been on enough scum teams to know that communication can be hard and, even in a group, several smart people can add up to be total dumbasses. :p

I'm generally going to agree here with the Rat about the Snow. Informing us ahead of time is a good move for both scum and town, since it means there won't be a sudden panic lynch when its revealed he has serious vote weight. Hiding it... really wouldn't have been constructive, and getting exposed when he had a number of votes would have been a good way to go straight to the gallows. So... yeah, pretty neutral move overall.

Now I consume dinner.

[Laggy]

Dangit, I hate having to play catchup. This'll be mostly another response type format, and then my own thoughts at the end.

Re: NEB, on vote record: That's fair enough, and Tom's fast and unexpected hammer certainly does lend weight in that regard, but at the same time the vote record is a very important tool for town to analyze, and recent discussion has shown just how much scrutiny and fire you may come under for not supporting your stances with a vote. This is especially true the further the game goes in, as analysis of such things after flips becomes more informative.

I disagree wholly with Ciato that not voting, especially by the end of the day, is not something to remark on. The simple fact that you have to unvote and vote to switch targets leaves a nice trail that is more easily studied, since scum have to switch strategies depending on the circumstances and current cases, too. So just because scum can vote for each other is not a defense in this regard.

Bardiche - as for your anonyvote power... first off, no, as a matter of fact, not every role has to be exercised and its power used, especially double-edged ones like anonyvoting. However, I do think that you revealing it, much like Rat revealed his voting restriction, was inevitable and you dodged a potential clusterfuck bullet that may have happened later had you not, so that's alright. The condition is... troubling, though, to say the least; even assuming you are town (and allowing me a moment to borrow from the metagame page and thinking that with the amount of power that role could have, it'd be ridiculous in scum's hand, but that's not assured), having essentially a one-man lynch team carries grave consequences. Incrementing in weight on every successful lynch is kinda o_O, we saw that with Ramza in FFT Mafia and how ID got mauled for it. Anyhow. I more or less agree with Rat's sentiments in that I don't see the hammer on Tom as particularly dooming you in my eyes, but don't make that mistake again, be especially careful considering your anonyvotes. Also stop blathering that nonsense of being afraid of "coming off as scummish". It's counterproductive and just makes you look worse.

Shale does feel rather backgroundish and this is a strike against him, but the specific arguments some people have made against him seem blown out of proportion (why the heck is him saying that he would have voted for Tom anyway somehow scummy? The entirety of Day 1 supports this). That said, the lack of activity and posts, as well as the lack of votes, does bother me. If he doesn't improve in this regard he will be suspect, much as I feel Strago is right now.

Snow, your attack on Bard because he was being too overdramatic... uhhh.. yeah might as well go blame Meeple for being too Meeple. In short, I don't think that's a good case to go after someone. Your reasons for not being around are understandable, but as has been said many times, can't let those kind of shields protect you from being lurkerish and low on content forever; it's too easy to use as scum. Not getting good vibes from all of this.

Meeple, your attack on Ciato, on the other hand, does kinda reek strongly of OMGUS. In particular, where you attack her for speculating on why OK was acting the way he was, she wasn't saying that such speculation was pointless - she was saying that you can't really read alignment from that. Which you can't, he ended up being third party! Her being primarily responsive is true and I noted as such earlier, but then again it's not really a surprise either.

As of right now, things on my mind:

- I am still waiting for Strago to show up and say something substantial.
- Where the heck is Corwin?
- I'm guessing Tom will post sometime later after discussion has run its course, to provide some observations and insight when all's said and done.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Bardiche:

First of all, I will say that I think you did the right thing by revealing your role. Vote-related roles are one I feel town should know about; holding your hand would just have created a panic that could lead to a quick-lynch of you, I'd imagine. And assuming you're town, we don't want that.

Speaking of panics, though... I'd encourage you not to try to run up your vote weight. Mostly because, well, that's what a scum multivoter would do! The minute you can lynch solo is the minute we LOSE THE GAME if you are scum. I know I for one would be uneasy about letting you get that powerful, and I can't imagine I'm the only one. Not trying to stir up shit against you, but... yeah.

I'm reminded of FFT mafia. ID, who had multivoting as town, observed it wasn't a very strong ability. If you actually make solo lynches, town hates you. Lynching by consensus is a town weapon. There's something to be said for having more votes be in town's pocket, but that's reassuring to the multivoter and the multivoter alone, since nobody else can know he is scum. In other words, it's not something to be built up at all costs. Quite the opposite if anything.

This was mostly ninjaed by Laggy AGAIN. Get out of my head!

[Laggy]

I can only see it as karmic justice.

[Strago]

Yar, Laggy's points against me are fair enough. Actually, I'm a bit surprised that more people haven't called me out on my lurking, but I suppose I won't ask for any more flak. I know I haven't been playing particularly productively thus far; I blame both Arcanum, a general Day 1 inability to figure out what the hell was going on, and a lack of investment the source of which I can't quite place. That said, I've now finished Arcanum, Day 2 has arrived, and hopefully those first two will contribute to the amelioration of my third little problem. So now what? Well, I've been re-reading in the hope that anything will jump out at me.

(Vaguely amusing thing I just noticed. On Page 3, Meeple submitted both Tom and Carth as potential Jesters while giving OK's weird behavior a pass. Granted, OK's behavior hadn't been especially bizarre at that point. But still... perhaps Meeple and OK are some sort of unholy Jester alliance! Nefarious.)

Snow's vote against me seems a little... I dunno, pre-emptively OMGUS-y, since when he made it we seemed to be almost identical in the general perspective of the rest of the players, and yet he had two votes on him as opposed to my one. Bit of a deflective tactic, potentially. Then again I can't actually find fault with his wanting me to talk more, so. And likewise he hasn't done much of anything that I haven't, so. Fair enough to his vote.

I don't see anything wrong with Bard's roleclaim. Him putting it out in the open keeps us from speculating endlessly about where the extra votes are coming from, which just wastes our energy.

Ashdla, on page 2, rapidly switched a vote -- during the jokevote stage, mind -- from Elfboy to OK. This interests me because this sort of random jokevote switching often gets people called out -- as it did with OK, Day 1 -- and the only person who seems to have noticed Ash doing this was Corwin. Could easily be nothing. Then again, I don't particularly like being misrepresented, which Ash has recently done:

Strago: Has been laying kind of low in my opinion, in that he's only posted twice, neither of which had a vote in them. Not that lack of voting is a ridiculously terrible thing to do, but it's still noteworthy, if nothing else.

Largely absent, sure, I cop to that. But I voted for Tom near the end of Day 1. Obviously this doesn't make me a dang ol' saint or anything, but nevertheless I wanted to set the record straight.

Regarding Meeple's recent offensive against Ciato... hmm. I actually see what he means, a fair bit. The one thing I don't particularly like about his reasoning is the "I always play like this etc." since it's really just a dead-end; counterproductive or vaguely scummy play is going to look bad and be bad no matter how many times you've done it as a townie. That being said, I feel like he's hit on something regarding Ciato's responses to Andrew. Her rather unpleasant responses toward him have been happening for a few games, as I recall, and I don't consider them particularly helpful as they seem to have little to do with the actual game any more.

That's it for me at the moment. I do apologize for my lack of presence thus far. I... may actually be gone for some large portions of this weekend as well -- I'll be going to New York to look at a couple neighborhoods and have a meeting with my theater company -- but I'll try to have my computer with me and at least check in whenever possible. Anyway, tomorrow I'll be around plenty.